View Full Version : your thoughts
i like to know your thoughts on this video .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtnnbn3s71A
There are bad seeds everywhere. What they never show is the good, its always the bad. Pull us out and let them manage.
GIs can be dicks.
no new info here.
only fools believe the bush = war criminal crap
mcantar18c
03-21-2011, 15:33
My thoughts:
The soldiers are acting like soldiers.
The libatrds that posted the video should either go join up and prove they can do better or STFU.
BlasterBob
03-21-2011, 15:50
Damn sad!! I'd like to believe that that movie was rigged somehow but doubt that those pictures are fake. Although when I was in the U.S. Army, back in peace time of 1955 - 1958, there were always some practical jokers but nothing like the guys in that movie. Nasty thing is that this movie and others like it will be seen by many many folks all over the planet and do not give our GI's a good reputation even though just a few act like that.
The nitwit hurling that little ole puppy will someday get a good swift kick in the nutz but will not realize that it is a just a form of payback for the puppy toss. I now wish that I had not seen that movie........[Mad]
Guess I'm more than just a little mellow in my old age.
clublights
03-21-2011, 16:00
With the exception of the puppy tossing and the flash bang at the sheep.....
wow a bunch of 18-19 year old kids acting like............. 18-19 year old kids.
I really didn't see anything wrong, hell my friends and I talk to each other worse then that. Again with the exception to the puppy tossing that kid should be brought up on charges for animal abuse. ANd the guys that tossed the flashbang at the sheep need to spend time at the Army's version of Captain's Mast.
Byte Stryke
03-21-2011, 16:06
Shitheads abound because the libtards cry when we lock the shitheads in shipping containers for doing crap like this.
2008f450
03-21-2011, 16:35
Ok so a handful of troops act like idiots. I dont believe that represents the majority of our fine servicemen and women. As far as the nazi line. Go get f@#$ed you liberal prick. But I do agree bring all our troops home. Stop trying to help the rest of the world that hate us anyway. protect our borders and our people.
I didn't watch it all, but as long as they aren't actually harming the kids who gives a shit?
Ask me again when the video shows them using kids as human shields (as an Israeli soldier was caught on tape doing), or killing a family to rape the 14 year old girl, or selling these kids to be "party boys" as the Afghan National Army (and US contractors) have been caught doing in Afghanistan. Just getting them to repeat stupid stuff, while juvenile and potentially detrimental to the mission, isn't actually putting anyone in jeopardy.
There's a lot of Real Bad Shit that gets done that should be the concern, not stuff like this.
(Edit: didn't see flashbangs or puppies, animal cruelty is bad and all, but again I'd be more concerned about videos like this:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x16iwr_contractors-in-iraq-fire-at-civilia_news )
H.
My thoughts:
The soldiers are acting like soldiers.
The libatrds that posted the video should either go join up and prove they can do better or STFU.
Yeah, must have been libtards who were stationed in Iraq in the service, and then joined a unit, and then prompted everyone to act like an asshole so they could tape it and upload it to Youtube.
You think O'Keefe went undercover to score a video, these amazing libtards actually joined the military!
H.
Funny, I never see a video showing those same kids going to schools the we built and pay for, running down roads that we paved, eating food that we provide, receiving medical care from our doctors on our dime, or not getting shot, kidnapped, beaten, and tourtured from the security we provide. Yes, we have a few badd apples. Perhaps if the camerman would put the camera down and do something constructive (like set the example and straighten those young soldiers out), we might not have this issue.
KevDen2005
03-21-2011, 17:08
Nothing serious caught my attention...my response, who gives a rat's a@$
BlasterBob
03-21-2011, 18:12
Nothing serious caught my attention...my response, who gives a rat's a@$
Guess I'll have to admit that I for one give a "rat's a@$ and that's apparently because movies like that are seen by a gazillion people of all nations and the less shitty publicity, we as Americans receive, the better. Chalk it up to my "old school" way of thinking. Yeah, I know --[BooHoo]
palepainter
03-21-2011, 18:41
Strangely, I only felt anything for that puppy getting tossed.
Zundfolge
03-21-2011, 19:09
Clearly American soldiers are worse than Saddam and his sons (Saddam only used WMDs on the Kurds and his boys just pulled pre-teen girls out of school, raped and murdered them and threw political dissidents into wood chippers).
I thought there was a problem with stray dogs out there, and it was the logical thing to do to kill any stray dogs that were found. That's what I heard anyway. Never really considered it.
the kids chasing the water bottle reminds me of our federal government in the truck holding your hard earned money hostage until tax time when you have to run after it, even pay other companies or someone to help you get it. then you have to not worry about getting run over by these kids, but having them audit you and steal everything you have ever earned.
some douchebags video comparing our american soldiers to nazis? who gives a shit. it isn't like they are rounding them up in gas chambers or shooting them in droves over a hole to bury them.
splashing water on people was pretty funny to me. didn't hurt anyone.
asking some sick questions...who cares, they don't really understand. bet if someone did the same thing to you in spanish you wouldn't understand or get upset about it...only if you found out later.
now the puppy thing was sick. that pisses me off. I know dogs are not viewed the same in other countries. My dogs are my family, I treat them like my kids. but to call that a war crime or look for some type of serious punishment would be out of line IMO.
ChunkyMonkey
03-21-2011, 20:12
The worst part of that video is 'infowars.com'
leave puppy alone mofucka! WTF is wrong with that asshole??!!!
as for the rest - I don't give a shit...
CrufflerSteve
03-21-2011, 23:03
It might be sick shit but to call it 'War Crimes' is to be ignorant of history. This wasn't Nazis, Serbs, Hutus and others doing a policy of deliberate murder and rape. It was some jerkwater soldiers off the reservation and hopefully they caught or will catch it for their actions.
Steve
Mick-Boy
03-22-2011, 00:26
Not one fucking thing in that video could honestly be called a "war crime". It's immature people behaving unprofessionally, not war criminals.
FYI - the puppy tosser was NJP'd. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365783,00.html)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x16iwr_contractors-in-iraq-fire-at-civilia_news )
H.
Ah yes, the old "Evil contractors fire at civilians" video. A couple of things to keep in mind watching those fun little bits of propaganda.
-I spent a few years in Iraq and never, not one time, fired a weapon at someone in uniform. Everyone I shot at was dressed as a civilian. Every person that shot at me was dressed as a civilian too.
-IIRC that video was taken around 04/05. VBIEDs were all rage back then. The only shoot in that video that may have been questionable was the first one but there was no context so I can't say. The others showed cars coming up hard on the back of a motorcade and the trunk monkey engaging. That was our SOP when I was there with the USMC in '04 too. It sucks to do a BDA on someone you just shot only to find out that they weren't trying to kill you. They were just dumb or had piss poor situational awareness. It sucks even more picking up body parts of Americans that were killed by a VBIED driver who looked innocent.
CMP_5.56
03-22-2011, 00:29
Yeah the puppy thing pissed me off. And of course it was young males acging like young males. But to try and pass it off as war crimes is idiotic. I would agree we don't need the bad publicity though. We should leave them all to fend for themselves and bring our boys back home. But then the libtards will just bitch that we don't send our young men and women to get involved in somebody elses business.
That video was stupid. It was just young people being stupid and immature, and one giant fu*^ing asshole (puppy guy). War crimes? Hardly. Idiotic behavior, yep. That kind of shit happens when you put some people in stressful situations for long periods of time, nothing new. People need to vent, everyone does it differently, and some people are just plain pricks that need to get the shit kicked out of them (puppy guy). Is there worse that has happened? Yep. Does that mean that the actions of very few speak for the whole? Nope. Shit can get alot worse, they need to just bring our guys home and worry about our own shit here and get things strait here before we go worrying about someone elses shit. Let them fight and kill eachother, besides, it will just make it easier for us with less of them if we do have to go over there later anyway.
Byte Stryke
03-22-2011, 07:16
I Agree, Not even close to war crimes.
The guys shooting unarmed prisoners, War crime.
Guys Raping civilians, war crime.
I *might* consider the puppy tossing a war crime if it was a repetitive thing.
the rest of that crap was general douche-baggery. While not a war crime I Still dont agree with it and they do need a nice healthy wall-to-wall counseling.
I think the worst part of this video is that fact it is a compilation of videos that the soldiers shot themselves.
No Liberal went over there, these dumbshits offered this crap up on their own accord. The Libtards just grabbed it from you tube, edited it to cut to the stupid a little faster.
Boys will be boys. I fondly remember doing very stupid stuff when I was younger too, but war crimes these are not. The idiots who post stuff like this don't take immaturity, stress, homesick-ness and general stupidity into account when they make such wide accusations of the military. The boys were blowing off steam and while the puppy thing was totally immature, it just boils down to blowing off steam.
And I agree with Byte Stryke, a bit of wall to wall would improve the situation quite a bit - but then again, getting laid probably would too!
wow some good thoughts and some bad ones .
so someone sent me this video whit there statement of " see what our army guys are up to. i bet you feel dumb for doing free uso work now !"
my response was this " no that is not a reflection of our armed forces and those are not war crimes . also no i have never felt and never well feel dumb for any uso work i have done or might do in the future . also the only really awful thing i saw was the sheep and the puppy and the puppy toss was done by a marine not a member of the army "
my thoughts on this video
well like all dumb a** kids they were just being mean for no reason , yes its a shame that anyone would act like that but i cant think of a single person that at some point in there life has not made fun of someone for something they cant help (of course most of us learn that this kind of behavior is wrong before were 10 , but hey thats what karma is for )
yes in some strange way and on a few levels i can justify all the actions in the video , i would never act like that , on some level it makes sense .
But if they are the enemy , why give them food or water while ridiculing them ?? if they are truly the enemy the only thing we should be giving out is hot lead .
teasing the kids is a bad idea , they will just grow up to be more enemy's of the u.s . think about it , maybe that kid has not had clean water in a long time and this a**hole say here kid have this water ??
the sheep , well that was mean for sure but if that was the enemy's food supply , why no confiscate the live stock and feed our troops , and if we dont need the food make it unusable .
the puppy thing is just wrong in every way , if it were a full sized dog just shoot the damn thing , but a puppy , thats just wrong . did that ass hole ever stop to think that maybe that lill pup could have been trained to be a working dog or have become a great mascot for someone , anything but tossing the poor little guy out on the rocks.
the biggest problem is all of the dumb a**es in the vid were dumb enough to film themselves being bullies . Whats wrong with our youth when it takes them that long to learn basic humanity life skills , honestly most people i know stoped that kind of crap around 10 or so .
But there is also a side of me that dose not understand or can justify any of the actions on the vid
war crimes NO , example of how people can be real jerks YES . The puppy toss was over the top . I wish i could show that to every girl he has interest in for the rest of his life , i bet he couldn't get a date if they saw him toss a puppy .
when its all said and done , it sucks that they acted like that and it really sucks that there is a video of it cause if the public opinion was not bad already this kind of thing just adds fuel to the fire .
So this is apropos to this thread:
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/534336/more_damaging_than_abu_ghraib_repugnant_army_%27ki ll_team%27_took_photos,_trophies_from_murdered_afg han_civilians/
This goes way beyond taunting kids with water or throwing a puppy. This is the kind of shit that seriously damages the "hearts and minds" concept of fighting an insurgency. I would be reticent to suggest looking at the actual images.
H.
So this is apropos to this thread:
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/534336/more_damaging_than_abu_ghraib_repugnant_army_%27ki ll_team%27_took_photos,_trophies_from_murdered_afg han_civilians/
This goes way beyond taunting kids with water or throwing a puppy. This is the kind of shit that seriously damages the "hearts and minds" concept of fighting an insurgency. I would be reticent to suggest looking at the actual images.
H.
thats no good at all , very shameful behavior indeed , i hope justice is fairly handed out
I'm surprised That Foxtrot hasn't locked this down with His Famous Alex Jones Rant yet.
I have left it open because you people were having a civil discussion about it..
I will say for the most part, if it is from Alex, chances are 95% of it is full of crap and re-edited crap at that. So, take anything He says with a grain of salt. Or, from what I have seen, a shaker full of it.
Oh, and in the future, if you find the need to link to one of his rants, PLEASE, leave the link cold..
And, be prepared for the Foxtrot rant.
Byte Stryke
03-22-2011, 11:39
In before Foxtrot Locks it!
I do want to add that its a shame a few repulsive apples have tarnished the image for the lot.
So this is apropos to this thread:
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/534336/more_damaging_than_abu_ghraib_repugnant_army_%27ki ll_team%27_took_photos,_trophies_from_murdered_afg han_civilians/ (http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/534336/more_damaging_than_abu_ghraib_repugnant_army_%27ki ll_team%27_took_photos,_trophies_from_murdered_afg han_civilians/)
This goes way beyond taunting kids with water or throwing a puppy. This is the kind of shit that seriously damages the "hearts and minds" concept of fighting an insurgency. I would be reticent to suggest looking at the actual images.
H.
LOL whenever we start talking about "war crimes" liberals start screaming ABU GARIB!!!
and whenever the talk is about presidential corruption they scream RICHARD NIXON!!!
just like their new cry for gun control, GABRIELLE GIFFORDS!!!!!
it's just meaningless, politically driven bullshit.
if you believe for a minute that any liberal in this country gives a shit about anyone involved in abu garib, for any reason other than political dirt, you are a fool.
oh and, I've watched the videos and seen the photos... and I'm ok with it.
why? well, I never saw a video of marines, army or contractors sawing the heads off of iraqi civilians with butcher knives.
Furthermore, I dare say it would help our cause and hurt our enemies if we gave them more doses of harsh treatment.
staitolog
03-22-2011, 12:32
Back to Russia, with love.
theGinsue
03-22-2011, 12:49
In my best Yakov Smirnoff impression:
In Russia we don't do Spam. No one can afford it.
[Spam]
oh and, I've watched the videos and seen the photos... and I'm ok with it.
why? well, I never saw a video of marines, army or contractors sawing the heads off of iraqi civilians with butcher knives.
Furthermore, I dare say it would help our cause and hurt our enemies if we gave them more doses of harsh treatment.
You saw the images at Der Spiegel that were linked from that alternet URL I posted? This is not the same as the kids and teaching them to say I love pork, this is another (new) issue. Where they (reportedly) killed unarmed people and took war trophies of human flesh.
I just want to make sure you're aware that this isn't the same thing as the first video. I wouldn't want you to be misconstrued as saying you endorse that type of activity.
H.
jeezus people. can we be rational here? do you think you can take 100,000 people of any professional, creed, race, ethnicity or nationality and not have some be complete dicks or idiots? then take those people, put them in a hostile environment where their lives are threatened every day, give them weapons, take them thousands of miles from home for months and years on end, and then see what happens. people who do this stuff should be punished severely, absolutely, but to think it isn't bound to happen and is unique to americans is just plain stupid. american soldiers AS A WHOLE have always been known to be the most caring and passionate, but there are always bad seeds. vietnam was the same way. as was ww2. when we start stabbing pregnant women with bayonets (russians in afghanistan), locking people up in camps and refusing the feed them or gasing them in mass numbers (germans in ww2), or force them to march insane distances with nothing to eat or drink (japanese in ww2) then we can start talking. until then, its simply the ugliness of war. find the people, dishonorably discharge them and charge them criminally if warranted, and move on.
if you don't think there is an agenda in compiling and showing these videos, then you are wrong. the world outside looks at us as terrible, imperialistic, and selfish because the media portrays only the bad of what goes on over there. if you have been there or have friends/relatives there, you know that is far from the norm and that good deeds happen on a daily basis. its exactly like vietnam. sure, its bad, but its made to look worse by people who have agendas.
You saw the images at Der Spiegel that were linked from that alternet URL I posted? This is not the same as the kids and teaching them to say I love pork, this is another (new) issue. Where they (reportedly) killed unarmed people and took war trophies of human flesh.
I just want to make sure you're aware that this isn't the same thing as the first video. I wouldn't want you to be misconstrued as saying you endorse that type of activity.
H.
troops are supposed to take photos of corpses for identification.
I saw a couple of GIs posing for a smiling photo with the corpse of a dearly departed hajji.
I did not see them cutting off fingers, raping anyone, killing children, beheading prisoners or double dipping their potato chips in the zesty ranch dip.
those photos are "repulsive" simply because those publicizing them say they're "repulsive".
the photos didn't bother me a bit.
our soldier's job is to kill, not be nice or politically correct.
I say stow the bullshit and let them do their jobs (kill the enemy) already.
Byte Stryke
03-22-2011, 14:45
troops are supposed to take photos of corpses for identification.
I saw a couple of GIs posing for a smiling photo with the corpse of a dearly departed hajji.
I did not see them cutting off fingers, raping anyone, killing children, beheading prisoners or double dipping their potato chips in the zesty ranch dip.
those photos are "repulsive" simply because those publicizing them say they're "repulsive".
the photos didn't bother me a bit.
our soldier's job is to kill, not be nice or politically correct.
I say stow the bullshit and let them do their jobs (kill the enemy) already.
this goes a little further than ID Photos
In one incident in May last year, the article says, during a patrol, the team apprehended a mullah who was standing by the road and took him into a ditch where they made him kneel down.
The group's leader, Staff Sergeant Calvin Gibbs, then allegedly threw a grenade at the man while an order was given for him to be shot.
Afterwards, Gibbs is described cutting off one of the man's little fingers and removing a tooth.
The patrol team later claimed to their superiors that the mullah had tried to threaten them with a grenade and that they had no choice but to shoot.
If its an ID Photo, the teams I worked with never wanted to be in the shot.
Those are typical trophy photos accompanied with some seriously negative testimony.
I saw a couple of GIs posing for a smiling photo with the corpse of a dearly departed hajji.
Did you serve in the sandbox? I know (speaking correctly) that a hajji is someone who has gone on the Hajj, the trip to Mecca to walk around the big black cube. I also know that it's used as slang in the same way that Nip and Gerry were used in WWII. My question is, for anyone who actually served in Afghanistan/Iraq, is the term used for any Iraqi, or only for confirmed enemy combatants?
There are thousands of images, and since Der Spiegel is the German equivalent of Time magazine I will make the assumption for now that they have sufficient proof to make the claims they're printing. I don't think this would be, in any way, representative of the US armed services at large, and would say this is likely another case of a "few bad apples", but I will bet this will result in more retribution killings than Wikileaks dumps.
H.
Did you serve in the sandbox? I know (speaking correctly) that a hajji is someone who has gone on the Hajj, the trip to Mecca to walk around the big black cube. I also know that it's used as slang in the same way that Nip and Gerry were used in WWII. My question is, for anyone who actually served in Afghanistan/Iraq, is the term used for any Iraqi, or only for confirmed enemy combatants?
There are thousands of images, and since Der Spiegel is the German equivalent of Time magazine I will make the assumption for now that they have sufficient proof to make the claims they're printing. I don't think this would be, in any way, representative of the US armed services at large, and would say this is likely another case of a "few bad apples", but I will bet this will result in more retribution killings than Wikileaks dumps.
H.
nope. I'm what one former marine at glocktalk called a 4F walter mitty.
I was under the impression that hajji was an interchangeable pejorative for "bad guy", but I could be wrong.
and we agree that it's just "a few bad apples"
the enemies' good apples bother me a whole lot more than our bad ones.
Mick-Boy
03-22-2011, 15:32
Hoosier,
The mission of a Marine Corps rifle squad is to locate, close with and destroy the enemy through fire and maneuver. In the defense it's to repel the enemy's assault with fire and close combat.
To most people those are just words. To a lot of Marines even, they are something you have drummed into you in basic and then regurgitate verbatim in order to impress promotion boards.
But at the pointy end, words like fire and close combat begin to have meaning. They mean yelling and screaming and dying. They mean lives that are changed forever in fractions of a second. No matter how much chest thumping some people want to do, killing another human being isn't something you just shrug off.
Please understand, I'm not trying to talk down to you in anyway. I don't know you, your background or what you've experienced in life. I'm also not trying to excuse the actions of the soldiers in the article you posted. I'm in Afghanistan right now and the actions of those soldiers are not new news. Based on what I've read, their actions rank up there with the Mahmudiyah killings in 2006. Despicable acts that should be punished under the UCMJ. Some photos of dead Afghans in a German rag have little/nothing to do with that though.
The American people have had greater access to the face of war over the last decade than we have at any point in our history. The unhappy truth that access has forced us to face is that war isn't clean or pretty. When people (whether friend or foe) die it's messy and unpleasant. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that some people handle it better than others.
I would ask you to try to have a little empathy for an 18 or 20 year old Soldier/Sailor/Marine/Airman who was told his mission in life was to locate, close with and destroy his enemy and then punished for acting violent. More often than not this is failure in leadership.
Counter-Insurgency is difficult work and not for everyone.
I can tell you that I've spent my entire adult life carrying a weapon in war zones. I travel around this AO quite a bit and have the opportunity to work with everyone from Tier 1 operators (guys who really rate the title "operator") to National Guard weekend warriors. I can tell you with out a doubt that there are some great people over here trying to do good work. Please just try to keep that in mind when you see videos of young dumb Soldiers being young dumb Soldiers(or Sailors/Marines/Airmen).
Mick-Boy
03-22-2011, 15:47
Ach! You posted while I was typing and I see now some of my comments were poorly aimed. I apologize for that.
And yes, factually a Hadji is someone who has made the Hajj (5th pillar of Islam). It is also used as a pejorative to describe any/all arabs (bad guys and other wise).
Did you serve in the sandbox? I know (speaking correctly) that a hajji is someone who has gone on the Hajj, the trip to Mecca to walk around the big black cube. I also know that it's used as slang in the same way that Nip and Gerry were used in WWII. My question is, for anyone who actually served in Afghanistan/Iraq, is the term used for any Iraqi, or only for confirmed enemy combatants?
There are thousands of images, and since Der Spiegel is the German equivalent of Time magazine I will make the assumption for now that they have sufficient proof to make the claims they're printing. I don't think this would be, in any way, representative of the US armed services at large, and would say this is likely another case of a "few bad apples", but I will bet this will result in more retribution killings than Wikileaks dumps.
H.
when my military buddies are back they use it to talk about militants. not normal everyday folks
ChunkyMonkey
03-22-2011, 17:36
Did you serve in the sandbox? I know (speaking correctly) that a hajji is someone who has gone on the Hajj, the trip to Mecca to walk around the big black cube. I also know that it's used as slang in the same way that Nip and Gerry were used in WWII. My question is, for anyone who actually served in Afghanistan/Iraq, is the term used for any Iraqi, or only for confirmed enemy combatants? .
You are correct, however, in 2003 after the iraqi army melted away - they would literally walked in the middle of nowhere w/o any supplies (afraid to be ID'd as militant/military member) and whenever stopped and asked what they were doing. They would say they were doing the pilgrimage or Hajj (similar to the actual Hajj where guys were to only wear two piece of clothing and nothing else)... hence the nicks for these guys as Hajji.
As in many other part of the world, we called bad muslim Hajji (I am from the S.E. Asia), because whenever a muslim got caught in a bad/illegal act, his first defense typically is that he is a hajji - as in I have done umrah/hajji and I could not be guilty because I am a good muslim.
The mission of a Marine Corps rifle squad is to locate, close with and destroy the enemy through fire and maneuver. In the defense it's to repel the enemy's assault with fire and close combat.
To most people those are just words. To a lot of Marines even, they are something you have drummed into you in basic and then regurgitate verbatim in order to impress promotion boards.
But at the pointy end, words like fire and close combat begin to have meaning. They mean yelling and screaming and dying. They mean lives that are changed forever in fractions of a second. No matter how much chest thumping some people want to do, killing another human being isn't something you just shrug off.
Based on what I've read, their actions rank up there with the Mahmudiyah killings in 2006. Despicable acts that should be punished under the UCMJ.
This was a really good response that I enjoyed reading.
Some photos of dead Afghans in a German rag have little/nothing to do with that though. The American people have had greater access to the face of war over the last decade than we have at any point in our history.
Do you think that there will be additional blowback because of these pictures?
Obviously neither of us were old enough to remember the press reports from Vietnam, but it seems back then there were Journalists who were getting close enough to the action to bring the horrors of war back home, and in so doing changed the course of that war.
In the current atmosphere of embedded reporters and sterilized news reports, it seems to be the soldiers themselves with todays small cheap camcorders and Youtube that are bringing the reality back to the general population.
H.
As in many other part of the world, we called bad muslim Hajji (I am from the S.E. Asia), because whenever a muslim got caught in a bad/illegal act, his first defense typically is that he is a hajji - as in I have done umrah/hajji and I could not be guilty because I am a good muslim.
That's more than a little ironic. Another reason I detest religions and most of their zealous adherents.
H.
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