View Full Version : carry in Banks
I really hadn't thought much about it untill I read some posts on the Safearms forum:
Well, I had a quick question. I was thinking in some of my law classes, and boy do things get interesting spewin out things for both sides of any argument. Well anyway, I was just thinking...
Can a CCW carry into a bank? I know a few of us probably do, but can we? Its not a federal building, nor do they check for metal at the entrance. However, they have armed security and are federally insured. FDIC?...
If it gets robbed, its almost solely investigated by the FBI. I have never carried into a bank but was just curious if any of you do or what your thoughts are on it.
Most of the folks that responded said not to carry in banks that it wasn't worth the potential problems. I usually carry into my bank. Now I am having second thoughts about just leaving it in the car. However, I always look on business for signs that prohibit guns in their business. I know my bank has no sign. I also know that occasionally there are armed encounters in and or around banks. So, is it better to leave your weapon in the car, and be unarmed walking to and from the bank, or be armed and risk potential hassles, but be able to defend yourself and possibly the lives of others?
Opinions?
HunterCO
04-25-2006, 19:38
Once again for the millionth time signs don't mean a damn thing in CO. Yes I carry into my bank all the time and personally the people that come up with all this BS about if it gets robbed and you have your gun on you.... need to take off the tinfoil hat.
If I have my gun on me who gives a damn I sure as hell didn't rob it so why would I care if they stop me and find out I am armed. They do have video survelence for crying out loud I am sure they could determine that it was not me in a very short period. Not to mention anybody that did rob the bank I seriously doubt is going to have a permit much less hang around and wait for the po po's to show up afterwards.
I will carry into any bank in the entire state if I have a reason to go into that bank to conduct business. I also will and do carry into post offices it is perfectly legal see how many idiots will tell you that the post office is illegal. The only Federal buildings that are 100% off limits unless authorized by the court is a Federal Court House. The only other place would be military base I don't know if they have special Fed regs or not so I can't say.
I don't have a tinfoil hat so I will never understand where people come up with all this crazy BS.
I am HunterCO and I approve this rant. :mrgreen: [postal]
You make sense to me HunterCO. Like I said, I never much thought about it untill a stumbled on that post on Safearms. I had carried in my bank many times and never worried about it. I have not carried in a Post Office or at School events.
I carry in PO, banks...heck almost everywhere I go (except K-12)
and I'm not worried about the PO either, I'm law abiding and am conducting business. There are not metal detectors at the PO.
I don't carry at Jarred because I don't go in there!
HunterCO
04-25-2006, 21:27
In CO carry as you wish go to the post office go to a school function providing it is NOT ON PUBLIC SCHOOL GROUNDS. Other than that don't listen to all those idiots just go about your business. Let them put on the tinfoil hats and come up with fifty different reasons why you could get busted for something that is 100% legal [wink]
The1andOnlyKC
04-26-2006, 03:00
Why not carry? I carry every where I go. Like HunterCO said 90% of these places any more have video surveilance even bars have it now a days. I mean use your own judgement but just because one or two people walk into a place of bussiness with guns and rob the place doesnt mean you have to play rambo and draw down and get yourself and other shot.
Reserving my spot for comment after I am rested.
knowing full well you don't do to much, what are you waiting for? :twisted:
The1andOnlyKC
04-26-2006, 10:27
DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where the heck is Manager Complaint form? Who is the CEO around here? I need to have a chat with them.
Speak up son, I AM the Complaint Dept. :evil:
:mrgreen:
Hunter
What do you mean by:
Once again for the millionth time signs don't mean a damn thing in CO.
?
HunterCO
05-08-2006, 20:02
Hunter
What do you mean by:
Once again for the millionth time signs don't mean a damn thing in CO.
?
What I mean is signs have no legal weight if a bussiness is posted and you carry anyway you are not breaking any law. They can't do a damn thing if they discover your armed except ask you to leave.
If they ask you to leave and you refuse then you could be charged with trespassing.
In other words what they don't know won't hurt them screw the signs they don't mean anything and are not worth the material they are printed on.
I have never seen a business posted because I never look and could care less. I carry every place I go period if they find out and ask me to leave so be it I will never go back.
KarlPMann
05-09-2006, 01:15
I agree with you 99%. It is illegal to carry on USPS property. There was a sign in my local Post Office a few weeks ago until it mysteriously disappeared. :twisted: But nevertheless, it is illegal by federal law. I still carry there, but then again, I've never let silly ol' laws stop me before. :mrgreen: Karl.
HunterCO
05-09-2006, 08:35
I agree with you 99%. It is illegal to carry on USPS property. There was a sign in my local Post Office a few weeks ago until it mysteriously disappeared. :twisted: But nevertheless, it is illegal by federal law. I still carry there, but then again, I've never let silly ol' laws stop me before. :mrgreen: Karl.
Karl
Your wrong it is not illegal to carry on USPS property read article 18 section 930.
Better yet her is a lawyer from NY that explains it. The only Federal property that is 100% off limits is a federal court house.
In CO it is 100% legal to carry in a PO.
http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html
KarlPMann
05-09-2006, 13:51
Well, let me put it this way. The USPS has saw fit to make up signs, for their offices to post, that state it is illegal, and they cite the federal statute. If the opinion of a lawyer was the law, we'd have no need for courts. I'll see if I can find a copy of that sign. Karl. :cool:
HunterCO
05-09-2006, 14:48
Karl if you would have went to the link I provided they have a picture of the sign. It cites article 18 section 930 and they do not site the entire statue.
The very first sentence of the statue says "Except as provided in subsection D"
They of course don't have subsection D listed on that poster because it clearly states that if you are lawfully carrying incident to a lawfull purpose it is not illegal to carry a firearm on federal property.
Go to the link I provided and read it a lawyer does not make law but they have to inturprit it that is their job.
Here is a picture of the sign notice it does not contain the entire statue.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c63/HunterCO/usps158.jpg
I don't mean to start a thread on this, but see the third bullet from the Jeffco Sheriff CCW web site. So if the owner of a business has a posted sign - not supposed to carry there:
12. Where are the carry restrictions?
A person may not carry a concealed handgun into:
* a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law;
* a public building at which security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place;
or
* where a private property owner, private tenant, private employer or private business entity disallow.
HunterCO
05-09-2006, 18:37
I don't mean to start a thread on this, but see the third bullet from the Jeffco Sheriff CCW web site. So if the owner of a business has a posted sign - not supposed to carry there:
12. Where are the carry restrictions?
A person may not carry a concealed handgun into:
* a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law;
* a public building at which security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place;
or
* where a private property owner, private tenant, private employer or private business entity disallow.
You don't get it they can make any rule they want that does not make it a law. A no gun sign means no more than a no shirt no service sign. If I ignore a no shirt no service sign can I be arrested? Of course not there is no law that says I have to wear a shirt. There is no law in CO that states it is a crime to enter a business posted with a no gun sign. All they can do is refuse service and ask you to leave.
I'm not talking about no shirt no service.
A private property owner is not making the no concealed carry law. That is a Colorado law. It provides that a CCW holder is prohibited from carrying if a private property owner so indicates.
KarlPMann
05-10-2006, 17:36
I think the difference may be whether the "posted" property is open to public use. In other words, if it's my house, then I have the right to post it AND if you violate that, I CAN have you arrest for trespassing. In the case of an area open to the public, they can just ask you to leave first, then if you refuse, get you arrested. But I've also seen those type of signs at the social security office in Pueblo. They specify that having a CCW DOES NOT exempt you. They don't have a metal detector, but they do have an armed guard. I still carry anywhere I can get away with it. :P :twisted: :P Karl.
My understanding from my CCW class/instructor was this.
If they post a no carry and you do, and you get nailed by them, they call the local LEO, you get ticketed for something stupid, it is a justification for the state to pull your license - because you ignored their sign. That is in the law therefore it is the law...... IMHO....
I still carry into the PO and bank. Why would they find out anyway? That's why it's called conceiled..... I don't drink while packing either. That's another part of the rules we have to live by.
HunterCO
05-10-2006, 20:39
I'm not talking about no shirt no service.
A private property owner is not making the no concealed carry law. That is a Colorado law. It provides that a CCW holder is prohibited from carrying if a private property owner so indicates.
You are wrong there is NO SUCH LAW! There is not a single part of the CCW law that states it is a crime.
The only thing it says is that the LAW DOES NOT TAKE AWAY A PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNERS RIGHTS TO RESTRICT WEAPONS ON THEIR PROPERTY.
Notice the key word RIGHTS once again that is the wishes of the private property owner and is NOT A LAW!
Just like there is NO LAW that makes it a crime to not wear a shirt even if they post it. Are you getting it yet if not I would suggest you contact a lawyer and have them explain it to you since I cant seem to get through to you.
There is once again NO LAW THAT MAKES IT A CRIME.
HunterCO
05-10-2006, 21:09
If they post a no carry and you do, and you get nailed by them, they call the local LEO, you get ticketed for something stupid, it is a justification for the state to pull your license - because you ignored their sign. That is in the law therefore it is the law...... IMHO....
By all means please you or your CCW instuctor please show me the CO statue supporting that.
Better yet I want to see the CO statue that claims you can be cited for "something stupid" I would also like to know what the penalties are for something stupid. [roll]
Mule not a flame but that made me laugh. :P
I think he means that if they want to be anal and find a reason to ticket you they can. It doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with you having a gun on their property. They'd have a hard time finding something to ticket you for that could get your license revoked, though.
HunterCO
05-10-2006, 22:59
I think he means that if they want to be anal and find a reason to ticket you they can. It doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with you having a gun on their property. They'd have a hard time finding something to ticket you for that could get your license revoked, though.
Nonsense you have to break a law to be cited no if and or buts. If you broke no law they can not cite you and make it stick, it has nothing to do with them being anal.
Once again somebody post the CO statue that states it is a crime to carry on private property that is posted no weapons.
What I'm talking about is something like a "disturbing the peace" type stupid. Like when some guy walks around in Boulder open carrying and the cops nail him for it.
I' more concerned with loosing my permit. The law is what governs our legal carry, if we brake the law, we may loose the permit. Breaking the law is carrying into a signed place, it is enforcable, they take our permit. Plane and simple.
I'm not talking about a landowner/tennant/business trying to have me tossed in jail - for carrying in THEIR domain - because THEY think it's illegal for me to - based on THEIR little sign. They didn't make a law up, they may have made an assumption of the law OR they actually understand it and want us to stick to what WE are governed by.....
Take a sip of wine, calm down and think about what I am saying. You may try to look at the law as OUR standards for carry..... [poke]
We are on the same side, keep that in mind.
Greg
PS,
same thing in the "almost" peoples republic of Denver......
They can't ticket us for carrying, but they can for disturbing the peace or maybe something else....
G
OOPS, forgot.
definitions of stupit and breaking the law.
I let some idiot w/ a vendeta aginst guns see my weapon - stupid
he/she freaks out, call the cops and accuse me of waiving it around.
me aginst the yahoo, they believe him/her because I really do have a weapon. How else would they have known..... (same thing as letting someone know you carry and what you warry)
I get a ticked for disturbing the peace - I broke the law.
good enough explaination?
HunterCO
05-11-2006, 14:13
Breaking the law is carrying into a signed place, it is enforcable, they take our permit. Plane and simple.
Greg
Once again all I'm asking is for you or anybody to post the CO statue supporting that statement?
I will give you a hint there isn’t one. That statement is false plain and simple. In order for it to be against the law there must be a statue stateing as such.
Well here's what I am going by. The text that follows is from the CBI WEB site. See Statute (5). Since a statute is a law, by definition in any dictionary including the on-line one I just checked, I read (5) to say that it is against the law to carry CCW if a private propery owner probits it.
18-12-214
Site Navigation
Home
Statutes
List of County Sheriff 's
Reciprocity
Fees
Related Links
C.B.I. Home
C.D.P.S. Home
A.T.F.
F.B.I.
Colorado Attorney General
Colorado Statute Manager
County Sheriff's of Colorado
Source: Colorado Statutes/TITLE 18 CRIMINAL CODE/ARTICLE 12 OFFENSES RELATING TO FIREARMS AND WEAPONS/PART 2 PERMITS TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUNS/18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions.
18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions.
(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. A permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. A local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2.
(b) A peace officer may temporarily disarm a permittee, incident to a lawful stop of the permittee. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the permittee prior to discharging the permittee from the scene.
(2) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
(3) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school; except that:
(a) A permittee may have a handgun on the real property of the public school so long as the handgun remains in his or her vehicle and, if the permittee is not in the vehicle, the handgun is in a compartment within the vehicle and the vehicle is locked.
(b) A permittee who is employed or retained by contract by a school district as a school security officer may carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvement erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school while the permittee is on duty.
(c) A permittee may carry a concealed handgun on undeveloped real property owned by a school district that is used for hunting or other shooting sports.
(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:
(a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;
(b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and
(c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.
(5) Nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.
(6) The provisions of this section apply to temporary emergency permits issued pursuant to section 18-12-209.
Source: L. 2003: Entire part added, p. 647, § 1, effective May 17.
newracer
05-11-2006, 23:25
I still agree with HunterCO [poke]
To me 5 states that private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity have rights that cannot be limited by this statute. Therefor they have the right to not allow a person to carry on their property. Doesn't state that if someone does it is illegal.
I also read it as the total opposite. If I want to allow individuals to carry conceled on my private property WITHOUT a permit I can. [poke]
The1andOnlyKC
05-11-2006, 23:27
I am no lawyer but.....
The way I read that is that it is not in violation of the law but it protects the property owners right to say that you can not carry on their property.
So it wouldnt be a violation of that law (unless I missed or misread something) but it could be trespass or something of the sort.
I am no lawyer but.....
The way I read that is that it is not in violation of the law but it protects the property owners right to say that you can not carry on their property.
So it wouldnt be a violation of that law (unless I missed or misread something) but it could be trespass or something of the sort.
I agree fully.....
I didn't have time to get the info Marty posted. Sitting in my office, I have limitations.....
I agree w/ HunterCo that it's not illegal, what I am pointing out is that WE have to stick to the rules set on us for us to keep that little card in our wallet. I still haven't seen anything to the contrary.
I'm all out for protecting myself both by carrying and keeping within the law's bounds. The only reason I even posted on here is to bring that side of it into the picture. My ability to articulate that has become better as this post has gone on, it helps to have things thrown at you to think about and apply. I aplogise that I didn't make myself more clear at the start.
Greg
Ernie Mazza
07-31-2006, 21:43
Hunterco I think section d means if you are an LEO or some other official who is on duty and required to carry.
Just because you can, will not exempt you from the law, in fact because it is posted you are in violation each time you pack into any federal building including a post office. Federal Law trumps State law, Like it or not that is the law, I am not up on Colorado State carry laws but generally anyplace that is posted is off limits, and usually has an extra fine to impose plus flaunting the law can make you unable to carry. Do not give the lefties any ammunition every time somone who is legal breaks the law it give them an argument against us all. What i have read of your carry laws state that a property owner or business can prohibit carry, that means if you knowingly enter a posted place you are in violation of the CO. CCW.
Sort of like a property owner posting a no hunting sign, that means no hunting even during season and even though you have all the permits.
HunterCO
07-31-2006, 22:11
Hunterco I think section d means if you are an LEO or some other official who is on duty and required to carry.
Just because you can, will not exempt you from the law, in fact because it is posted you are in violation each time you pack into any federal building including a post office. Like it or not that is the law, I am not up on Colorado carry laws but generally anyplace that is posted is off limits, and usually has an extra fine to impose plus flaunting the law can make you unable to carry. Do not give the lefties any ammunition every time somone who is legal breaks the law it give them an argument against us all.
You are wrong and to make my point show me any statue that supports anything you just said. I will give you a hint you can't because you are wrong sir. I have gone over this with several attorneys.
I don't get how following the law is flaunting it but hey to each their own believe as you wish.
My advice is to educate yourself and contact the most famous gun law attorney in the nation James Bardwell he also happens to live and practice right here in CO. [wink]
Post offices weren't encluded in the list of fed buildings.
There is only a select few that are on that list. Been there done that on this one......
Unless you are served with a trespass ticket, the anoying little signs have nothing to do with the real carry law. Annoy the owner/bank president with the sign, get a trespass ticket and then you may have issues with our guidelines here in CO. It depends on how far the LEOs want to push it IMO. HunterCO and some of the other guys are much more up on this (not saying I haven't spent hours doing my homework).
On a side note.
I would reccomend you spend some time learning your new KS carry laws. I will happily join you in that arena, I work there on a monthly basis.....
I carry in banks, pose offices and pretty much anywhere but a courthouse, sherrif's office (personal parranoia) and school grounds. Denver Fed CTR is off limits too. Dang those crazy Geologists and Engineers shooting up the place.... LOL (Personal - inside joke)
KarlPMann
08-01-2006, 14:39
The local post office here put up one of those signs, then were told by the local po-pos if they wanted it enforced, feel free to try and get a federal agent up here to enforce it. It's not their responsibility. :twisted: :P Karl. [roll]
HunterCO
08-01-2006, 16:35
+1 on what Mule said about KS I go back every year to visit family and pheasant hunt. I always disarm before crossing the boarder as of next year I may not have too anymore but I have no idea what KS carry laws are.
I know the hunting regs and how I can carry a long gun in a vehicle but have no clue about the new carry law.
I will do some research and see what I can find would like to know what places are off limits as well as any other regs that may differ from CO.
Kansas doesn't look too inviting.. time will tell...
http://www.packing.org/state/kansas/
HunterCO
08-01-2006, 19:26
Kansas doesn't look too inviting.. time will tell...
http://www.packing.org/state/kansas/
7 that site is so outdated it is not even worth the time to look at it. KS went shall issue this year and it takes effect on 01/01/07.
I have found the bill and am reading it and I have to say the places off limits is never ending. They also unlike CO made it a crime to carry in any business that is posted.
KS shall issue law in short sucks big time might as well not even have passed it.
Kansas doesn't look too inviting.. time will tell...
http://www.packing.org/state/kansas/
7 that site is so outdated it is not even worth the time to look at it. KS went shall issue this year and it takes effect on 01/01/07.
.....
granted it's not the most current place, but it is a place to start (not to mention it's a far cry better than most other non-official places on the web.)
And...just because KS is going to be 'shall issue' in '07 doesn't mean jack here in '06 and it doesn't mean the 'rules' posted on packing.org are incorrect either.
pickenup
08-01-2006, 21:37
Is there a “FEDERAL” law that says you can’t carry on school grounds?
Ernie Mazza
08-01-2006, 22:34
Is there a “FEDERAL” law that says you can’t carry on school grounds?
The "Safe Schools Act of 2000, I think that was when it passed, that is Federal. Po's come under any Federal laws and the statutes they post are Fed laws.
I was a cop long enuff to read the entire statute and interpret them.
Every thing posted so fa about where you can and can not carry is interesting form a theoretical point, but until tested any law is not worth the paper it is written on, it looks like your laws in Co. have a provision that protects property owners rights to limit or restrict entry. But I do not live there so it really is of no matter to me.
Kansas just passed our CCW a couple monthys ago with a veto override. it will not go into effect until 01/01/07 and right now you cannot get any straght answers from anyone about it, the AG's office has not even settled on what training is required. 8 hrs is all. And, here at least the resrictions on carry in a place that is posted oe other wise listed is part of the law.
pickenup
08-02-2006, 20:55
From what I can find, without too much digging, is that the Safe School Act, or the Gun-Free School Act, were mostly implemented by the “FEDS” to force the “STATE” to enact laws concerning “students” carrying guns to school. I do not see where there are any “FEDERAL” laws involved. Just another “blackmail the state over funding” issue.
So, in Colorado, you can still drive onto school grounds with a firearm, as long as it remains in your vehicle. Right? :twisted:
KarlPMann
08-03-2006, 05:24
No. It is federal law. But there was a small reversal by the courts as to the 1,000ft. (or 500ft.) gun free zone crap. They ruled it doesn't apply if you are bringing the gun to or from home and the home is either in that zone or cannot be gotten to without going through that zone. That pretty much gutted that law. Nobody enforces it until there's an incident involving the school anyway. Karl.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.