Firearms Insurance Part II Serial Numbers and your OPSEC

[HBARleatherneck]

Ok, we had he discussion on price here...
http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31987&highlight=firearm+insurance

Now, you have made the decision to get insurance on your firearms. But, the insurance company wants serial numbers of all of your firearms. The company says, "no the information isnt given out". "Yes our computer system is secure". What do you think? And who do you use? Do they require serial numbers and or receipts? Or just your good word?

NRA arms insure, does not require serial numbers.
USAA does require serial numbers.

Do you think giving out the information is wise? Or just part of the game? We hear about systems being hacked all the time, we hear about employees losing laptops with millions of peoples information on it.

[Bailey Guns]

As much as I dislike insurance companies and/or releasing personal info, I guess I don't see a problem with it. You release far more sensitive information to insurance companies for health or car insurance...why not for firearms.

Course, I also don't cover serial numbers of guns when I take photos and post them online. Is this really an issue that's caused problems?

[mcantar18c]

As much as I dislike insurance companies and/or releasing personal info, I guess I don't see a problem with it. You release far more sensitive information to insurance companies for health or car insurance...why not for firearms.

Course, I also don't cover serial numbers of guns when I take photos and post them online. Is this really an issue that's caused problems?

Somebody won't be tempted to break into your home if they come across a laptop with your address and your high blood pressure stats.
Somebody might be tempted to break into your home if they come across a laptop with your address and a list of the firearms they can find there.

X2 on the picture thing... maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the point in blocking out serial numbers on guns, license plates, etc.

[HBARleatherneck]

i wondered if some people might be worried the government would use the list to compile list of gun owners and what guns they own. some of us have more than alot.

[10x]

I see a big problem with giving SNs.
Why don't you get a blanket policy covering up to X$ and if something happens then give the SNs and values at that time.

There is no secure computer system, those are words, not reality.

[ChadAmberg]

Found a good post at The High Road that talks about USAA and needing serial numbers.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-366962.html

I think my overall perspective is this. "They" know I own guns. They will also be able to track *most* of the guns I own if someone in fedgov really wants to know. When and if the day comes that agents of the government roll in and take my stuff, they'll be able to get most of 'em. But who is to say I may not have a few weapons not worth insuring that I purchased locally for cash, along with ammo, stashed in a cache somewhere, where I didn't even carry my cell phone with me while digging a hole?

As for USAA specifically and data loss potential. Insurance companies are pretty darn conservative when it comes to security compared to lots of other companies. And policy detail information such as firearm serial numbers probably only exist in their mainframes, and aren't exportable to PCs and laptops to get lost. And a company as large and so far trustworthy as USAA has proven to be most likely does everything right when it comes to security.

You also may want to look at the actual risks. One is of course being used in a government roundup. Well, if you're posting here or any other firearm board, I think your house will be on the must visit list anyway.

Another is someone getting a serial number and claiming it as theirs. This is the common reason for blurring out gun pics. I don't buy this because it's the same as them getting your VIN number from a parking lot and claiming your car as theirs. They won't have any proof, while you most likely will have proof it's yours. Same thing with weapons, as a responsible gun owner you'll have receipts for guns you bought from an FFL stored away somewhere, and as things bought cash face to face, the potential thief won't know if you have a bill of sale or not for it, which means its a very risky ploy to try to claim a gun as theirs since fraud like that is most likely a felony.

Finally, there's the idea that an organized group of gun thieves will get the info and rob your house. That is a bit of a risk, but still not very likely. The newspapers and government have been releasing names and/or addresses of gun owners in several areas around the country, and I haven't heard of an actual case of where the owner was robbed specifically because of their names being released. I doubt many folks with 20k$+ collections have them laying around loose in their house, more than likely people like this have several layers of defense such as dogs, alarms, lighting, and safes. And you figure that almost every actual burglary is simply a crime of opportunity, the actual risk is incredibly low. But that is why you have insurance for the firearms in the first place.

[Great-Kazoo]

regarding tracking of guns as the topic is buried in one of the post. i was contacted by LE X last year regarding X i purchased 17-18 years ago. it ended up in CA. I did not know or have personal knowledge of the current owner/s of the gun however it took about 1-2 days for the firearm to be traced back to me the original owner of the gun. the feds know who has what. They (feds) have access to more computers then we could even imagine.

Back OT

I am insuring my NFA items. those serial #'s are with the ATF, my FFl, Sheriffs dept and who knows what other agency.
I ask people who say they do not want the .gov knowing they have guns if they have a hunter safety card. when the answer is yes, i say the .gov already knows you have guns.

sorry for the random drifting if any.

[JohnTRourke]

I agree
I"m already on THE LIST
and damn proud of it.

More people should be on THE LIST.

It only makes sense for the insurance company to need the serial number, they have the VIN of your car. If they pay off, they better not ever see that serial number again.

[Bailey Guns]

I have more than 1 gun but less than 100 guns.

Some can be traced to me, some can't. I don't really care. It's not gonna take a lot of effort for anyone to find out that I, or you, or anyone else, is a gun owner/enthusiast.

I was in the military with a TS/SCI clearance. I spent many years as a cop. I've had FFLs. I've completed dozens of 4473s. I pay taxes. There isn't much about me the government doesn't know. Not a lot I can do about that now.

I think if the government is in "gun roundup mode" we have a lot more to worry about than having personal data at risk on an insurance policy.

And if I was in the insurance biz I'd sure as hell want SNs...that can be a good indicator of value for many guns.

I don't have each gun listed on my firearms rider...just a blanket policy for $xxx in case of loss. But I have to provide the details in case of loss.

[SSChameleon]

As an insurance agent I can tell you I don't release any information and my company is a privately held company that is owned by it's policyholders, we are responsible to the policy holders and cannot release information without their consent.

About the computer system. I've been told my company has the 2nd largest data network in the country. To keep it secure our IT department is completely anal and has it locked down tight. There is no way to download outside computer programs to work computers (they won't even allow quickbooks, I had to buy a second laptop and run it off network) or access to any email other than outlook on the company servers.

When I first started working here I was annoyed, but after being here five years and having no downtime (compared to being down once a month when I worked for a major IT company) I see why they lock the system so tight.

The serial numbers you provide are based on your good word. I can insure a firearm without ever seeing it or a receipt. It's still a good idea to keep receipts if you have them since this makes settling a claim really easy and simple.

Getting the make, model and value are the most important things to insure the firearm for the correct value. The serial number is a way to track fraud and recoup cost on some stolen items.

Often (but not always) on high value items we require a police report of the theft and the serial number would be required for this. Then if the firearm is recovered after the claim has been paid you can purchase it back from the insurance company or we sell it at auction to help recoup our cost.

[mcantar18c]

I was in the military with a TS/SCI clearance. I spent many years as a cop. I've had FFLs. I've completed dozens of 4473s. I pay taxes. There isn't much about me the government doesn't know. Not a lot I can do about that now.

If you were cleared for TS, they know the name of the dog your parents got when they first got married.

[Fentonite]

...NRA arms insure, does not require serial numbers.
USAA does require serial numbers.

Hmm, I have my home, life and auto insurance with USAA. We paid a small extra rider for firearms, and they never asked for SN's. I imagine I'd need to provide them of I filed a claim, but haven't had to yet. I don't think I'd mind though, for reasons outlined by others already. It sure would be a pain to keep them updated with all the trades, etc.

[HBARleatherneck]

I have been insured with USAA for many years. home, life, car, firearms. I just wanted to know what people think about giving serial numbers. I had to give them my serial numbers. I dont know if its based on the size of your policy. But, I had to give serial numbers.

[Ridge]

I keep an Excel spreadsheet with my firearms, serial numbers, notable features and then I import photos of the weapon and the serial.

As others have said, the serial number is recorded with the 4473.

[HBARleatherneck]

I have shotworkspro. He is a member here (ChadAmberg) and it was worth $19 to me. I like the setup. I can input all the numbers, pictures, description, etc.

www.shotworkspro.com (http://www.shotworkspro.com)

[Fentonite]

I have shotworkspro. He is a member here (ChadAmberg) and it was worth $19 to me. I like the setup. I can input all the numbers, pictures, description, etc.

www.shotworkspro.com (http://www.shotworkspro.com)

Agreed! Well worth the cost, I'm glad to have found it.

[lebru]

Somebody won't be tempted to break into your home if they come across a laptop with your address and your high blood pressure stats.
Somebody might be tempted to break into your home if they come across a laptop with your address and a list of the firearms they can find there.

X2 on the picture thing... maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the point in blocking out serial numbers on guns, license plates, etc.

License plates is because people can call police and fuck around with it.


"license plate hba-222 is driving erradically and hit someone on the corner of 6th and simms then sped off"


just leaves you open to prank calling i guess. firearm serials are different.


also, someone breaking into your health insurance records will also have your social security number, which is far more sensitive to you than a firearm. and ,most people wouldn't attempt to break into a house with firearms in it, knowing he could get shot. and also, people who hack these sorts of databases aren't likely to do break into your house at all for any reason. they will sell your personal information, social, dobm, ect. I highly doubt the same criminals who break into houses aren't the same criminals who hack insurance databases.

[DFBrews]

In my renters insurance it had me give a total number and make and model I keep a jump drive with the pics and all serial #'s in my safe deposit box. I have never fuzzed out the # on pics.

[Irving]

Good luck getting compensated anywhere near what your firearms are worth if they can't verify their value. If they don't have a serial number to go by on something where a serial number can greatly effect value, then you're kind of SOL.