AR vs AK

[BREATHER]

I apologise if this has been discussed before. I have shot an AK, I have not shot an AR. It was not mine, I don't own one.

The AK is rated as soldier proof. Will shoot in almost any condition. Pretty reliable.

AR I don't know but when I started to want one I have just looked at them. How relialbe are they...

[beast556]

They bolth have a plus and minus side. I would sugest shooting one of each and see witch one you like. One isint better than the other, It is a matter of personal preference.

AK
More forgiving when it is dirty
More powerfull Round
Combat accuracy
Mag release and saftey could be more user friendly

AR
Needs to be maintained for 100% reliability
Controlls are very user friendly
5.56 lacks penetration power
Very accurate

Bolth guns are top notch, My vote goes to get bolth. Every collection needs at least one of each.

[gcrookston]

Both guns are top notch, My vote goes to get both. Every collection needs at least one of each.

The old stories of reliability issues with the M16 (AR), are just that... 'old stories'. Today's M4 has about as much in common with the M16 of the mid-1960's as a Ford Granada has with a Ford Fusion...

An excellent book on the subject is Chiver's The Gun. Exceptionally well researched and documented. He discusses the development of both and their strengths and weaknesses (although the M16 and M4 are lightly treated as the focus of the book is on the AK).

One of the things I've seen becoming common over the last few years is anybody with a pipe wrench and a vice appears to be assembling both types (think 'Century Arm's' and 'Bubba's Discount Arms'), and quality can be problematic with home builts and steep discount wholesalers' production for both types.

[Byte Stryke]

you are going to get sooo many opinions

this is better
that one sucks
this wont do that
that one always does this.


shoot both, there are too many guys here that will go shooting with you and let you try them.

[Irving]

Just get a Winchester.

[porfiriozg]

or you could middle of the road it and get an AR in 7.62x39, 6.8mm or 300 fireball (SO MANY CHOICES)

features:
user friendly
forgiving when dirty (gas piston)
powerful round
accuracies

all depends on what you like

[ldmaster]

If I was told I was going into the field for an extended period of time with little chance of spares, it would be the AK I'd carry.

The AR's problems upon first issue were powder related AND maintenance related, as soon as they figured out which powder was best AND started cleaning their rifles DAILY - the problem began to resolve. It's only true weakness is the damn gas system. That and the aluminum buffer tube doesn't take kindly to being whacked on things.

[Byte Stryke]

If I was told I was going into the field for an extended period of time with little chance of spares, it would be the AK I'd carry.

The AR's problems upon first issue were powder related AND maintenance related, as soon as they figured out which powder was best AND started cleaning their rifles DAILY - the problem began to resolve. It's only true weakness is the damn gas system. That and the aluminum buffer tube doesn't take kindly to being whacked on things.


Yes yes... the Rod vs Flake powder thing. Circa 1969 er something.

and as far as I know, the AR platform was not designed for use as a hammer so much.
I usually just buy a hammer... you know, for hammering things.

however since we are throwing out comparisons, exactly how many different calibers does the AK come in?


yeah..

AR comes in everything from .22 long to .50BMG


so as I said before try both. All you are getting here is bias and your opinion may vary.

[SAnd]

and as far as I know, the AR platform was not designed for use as a hammer so much.
I usually just buy a hammer... you know, for hammering things.

The pencil barrel was beefed up because they were bending when used as a pry bar.

Maybe it was the cause of this quote by General Abrams -
"Give a soldier an anvil, just a hunk of metal, and drive him out into the desert and leave him. In two weeks - when you go out to get him, the anvil will be broken."

[bobbyfairbanks]

I think they are both great weapons and have there place in battle as well as for shooting fun. I have been shooting the M16 style rifle and AK47 style for over 10yrs. The one thing that really bothers me with the AK is when my mag goes dry the bolt doesnt lock to the rear so I always do a immediate action drill to find out the mag is dry. Being that I am a AR guy I will always lean to that style rifle. But if money is tight then AK's are cheap and so is the ammo. AR's start to get really expensive. Especially since they have all the mall ninja stuff you can put all over your gun. What ever you decide to do though as long as your pulling a trigger it will be a good time.


One thing to add you always get what you pay for.

[Hoser]

I like Chevys.

[Cman]

I like Marlins

[Ranger]

Oh look, a squirrel.

[SU405]

I like Chevys.


HAHAHA WIN!

I was going to mention... you might as well start a Chevy or ford thread.

Or for you gearheads LS1 vs The WORLD! LOL

I'm sure you will end up with one of each when $$$ permits.

[Beer]

[gcrookston]

Oh look, a squirrel.

Where?!? Where?!? Oh, Snap! I forgot it's april fools [Bang]

[StagLefty]

Where?!? Where?!? Oh, Snap! I forgot it's april fools [Bang]

I saw it [ROFL1]

[spencerhenry]

not sure who posted it, but someone earlier in this thread listed a negative of the 5.56 of penetration. i used to think that until i did comparisons on steel, the 5.56 fmj out performed the steel core 7.62x39. NOT a scientific test, but enough to convince me that the difference is negligible.
i had an ak many years ago, about 1991 or so. i think it was a maadi or something from egypt or somewhere. it would group about 6 inches a 75 yards. i got rid of it, then a couple years ago i bought a norinco ak in 5.56. they are kind of tough looking guns, and this one is pretty accurate, but just not a "nice" gun. trigger sucks, sights are about average for a battle rifle, reliable, other than the occasional double. i shoot it about 100 rounds a year.
if i had to choose, it would never be a question. i would rather have just about any ar15 type rifle than a "good" ak.

[monganian]

This disproved my theory that AK's are more reliable that AR's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRwx4wtmms

[mcantar18c]

This disproved my theory that AK's are more reliable that AR's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRwx4wtmms


Guy's got an interesting way of holding the AR.... left hand trigger, shouldered on the right.

[BigMat]

I think the comparison of rifles is the wrong place to start, first you should look at caliber as this better reflects what you may need to do with a firearm.

close or far?
volume or accuracy?
# of targets?
type of targets?
amount you want to shoot relative to cost of the round?
Do you want glass, VFGs, etc.?

-this could go on and on and on.

5.45- shoots like an 223, costs like a 22- but often corrosive and surplus.
-best - at high volume shooting-
-worst - as its corrosive and good luck finding it at Walmart, not main stream.

5.56/223 - low recoil, fast follow ups, American manufactured (if import worries you), light.
-best accurate round that can handle plenty of types of bullets-
-worst - hits like a 5.45, without the benefit of the nasty Russian bullet, but costs like the 7.62-

7.62x39 - 30 cal round, (best explained by Jeff Cooper I think, mass is forever, velocity is fleeting). recoils like it means it, weighs more, hits harder, too slow to go too far without some serious Kentucky Windage.
-no one ever asked if an AK is lethal enough-
-worst-I'd say recoil, you will be slower than a 223 in a 3 gun match-


Once you decide what you want your bullets to do, you can decide what car they get to the prom in. They make the product before they make the box to send it in.


ARs own the 5.56/223 round, there are 556 AKs, but that is generally owned by guys who own ARs and want to share ammo with their AKs.

AKs get the other two. Same but backwards. You can get an AR in 7.62 or 5.45 but honestly, is an AR as reliable as an AK, probably, but is a 7.62 AR as reliable as an AK, I doubt this very much. I have no evidence, or experience to support this claim, but science is for nerds. And do you really want a gun known for sh##ing where it sleeps, shooting corrosive ammo?


As to the choice of gun-
they are both great, but you have to decide what you want to do with your gun and what you are willing to do for your gun.


A little break down

-Accuracy, meaning glass on top - AR
-Ergos - AR
-Cost of Admision - AK - top end no collector grade AK is about $1000 (Arsenal folder, $850 if you want a fixed stock). Top end AR is double this at least. Lowest AK is about $350, lowest AR is about double this.
-Cost to feed - 545 AK
-power - 7.62 AK
-Shares ammo, mags parts with US service weapon - AR
-availability of parts/accessories - AR
-training - AR, most training for firearms is AR based, AK would work but they are for sure mostly AR based.
-need of care in order of least to most - 7.62 AK, AR, 5.45 AK


To get a reliable gun depends on the user more than the firearm. I have owned an AK (WASR 10, I should have known better.) that couldn't finish a mag without pretending it was a bolt action, and an AR (RRA/Del-ton Frankengun-note, not top tier) that ran well over 2000 rounds, over multiple trips, without a hiccup. I cleaned it before it failed.



I say, look at a bunch of pictures, buy which one seems sexier to you, as they will both get it done in a serious way. The reason the debate is impossible is because it is just like the ford vs. chevy battle, is the 150 or 1500 better, neither, they are both shit trucks! [Tooth]



Buy a Dodge and a FAL! [Coffee]



P.S. my dodge used to catch fire for fun (this was a bad trait for a college kid on a first date)
"hey mat, whats that towel on the seat for?"
"Oh, That, sometimes my truck catches fire, don't worry about it"
*end date here

and I have never owned a FAL

[jreifsch80]

i like your write up bigmat but what puzzles me is why you have a difference in need of care between an akm and an ak74? also something to consider is accuracy is a little closer than most people think if the same grade pars are used, obviously an ak with a factory type crappy trigger, a factory barrel with a military chamber designed for reliability while filled with krud firing mass produced military grade STEEL cased ammo won't hold a candle to an ar with a nice commercial barrel and even mediocre commercial brass cased ammo. but a well built ak with a decent barrel like a green mountain barrel, firing decent brass cased commercial ammo with a good trigger and a decent scope and mount will shoot much closer than expected to an ar with the same type of quality componants.

in my opinion there isn't exactly a way to say an ar or an ak are better, just depends on what is better for you. i personally prefer ak's among some of the reasons are cheaper ammo, i love folders especially under folders and i like the styling (laminate wood, bake-lite, steel mags) but at the same time i don't feel an ak is better than an ar. i would say they are somewhat even so if only i could build a 5.45 ar that takes ak-74 mags and has a gas piston then i would be set ;)

[jreifsch80]

This disproved my theory that AK's are more reliable that AR's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRwx4wtmms

even with a nice clean gun .223 ak's can be problematic, let alone a romanian ak haha, with feeding and ejection. for some reason ak's don't like .223 as much as the com-bloc rounds i think due to the straighter walls of the cartridge.

your generalization would be like if i sad all ar's have unreliable bolts because they are prone to cracking since some 7.62x39 ar bolts crack ;)

[BigMat]

...difference in need of care between an akm and an ak74?



I said that only because of the majority of the ammo for each platform, if you have a 47, odds are you shoot a fair bit of wolf (not corrosive), but if you have a 74, odds on you shoot a fair bit of surplus (corrosive). If you shoot wolf from each, then same-same. To be fair I guess, the 74 would probably be fine with just a few shots of Windex after the trip to the range, I would like to see that as the cleaning and lube plan for an AR!


As to the accuracy bit, I took my old AK and buddy who is AZ now took his. I had a Bulgarian, he had a SLG-21. We were hitting what we were aiming at, to about 500 yards. MOA, no way, it was iron sighted fire, but I wouldn't volunteer to stand down range. We corrected right to repeated easy hits on a small torso sized target. I leaned AR for accuracy only because most have a rail mounted on top of the rifle as issued, Which facilitates glass, i.e. accurate shooting.

That being said, I roll my eyes every time I hear "AKs are 3-5 MOA rifles" as though its such a bad thing, from guys with 4 MOA red dots on their ARs! [Tooth]


I love both for different reasons

[BigMat]

This disproved my theory that AK's are more reliable that AR's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRwx4wtmms


I see your video, and raise you this insanity! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QbZWg4lRkg)

Its a new CLP mud lube!

[jreifsch80]

ah i understand, as for my akm's i'm not a big wolf fan ;) but alot of people shoot it, i like yugo m67 pretty accurate for military ammo.

a buddy of mine is ex ukrainian military and he was taught that if he was seperated from his cleaning kit, he was to piss down the barrel and run a boot lace through the bore haha i guess the amonia in the urine would nutralize the corrosive primer salts like windex lol. but yeah a few squirts of windex is fine, i have a romy g that lived it's first 1000 rounds having never been cleaned or lubed and it did fine with me not the slightest bit of corrosion though we do live in a pretty arid climate.

also i see your point about the red dot guys complaining about ak accuracy. if i need to hit something past 500 yards i'll use my mauser [Tooth] but a properly built akm or ak74 will shoot as good as most of the people operating them, though a factory ak trigger is one of the worst sloppiest triggers ever devised haha

[BigMat]

a buddy of mine is ex ukrainian military and he was taught that if he was seperated from his cleaning kit, he was to piss down the barrel and run a boot lace through the bore haha i guess the amonia in the urine would nutralize the corrosive primer salts like windex lol.


Is it weird that this makes me want an AK again? I might need some professional help.

[jreifsch80]

get a kit and come on up i now have a set of pnuematic rivet squashers ;) so next time Jim has a build party i'll bring them by and they will make everyone's front trunnion very fast and easy to install. dsa has amd-65 kits with us made nitrade treated barrels for around 225 that's a pretty good deal in my book.


i still need to finally build an ar but i'm having trouble deciding between 5.56 or 5.45

[jreifsch80]

also everyone says ar vs ak but what about adding hk roller delayed blowback rifles to the debate? [Tooth]

[gcrookston]

also everyone says ar vs ak but what about adding hk roller delayed blowback rifles to the debate? [Tooth]

-- Because it would be unfair to the AR and AK guys (the only valid criticisms of the HK33 or G3 is they are heavy and they are dirty)... [UZI]

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/gcrookston/dsc001188ey.jpg

[Colorado Osprey]

-- (the only valid criticisms of the HK33 or G3 is they are heavy and they are dirty)... [UZI]

Don't forget their recoil is high in comparison to other rifles of the same caliber.... and even the added heft didn't compensate for it.

[gcrookston]

Don't forget their recoil is high in comparison to other rifles of the same caliber.... and even the added heft didn't compensate for it.

Recoil? It's about a 2 on a scale of 10. I've never noticed. I suppose someone that hasn't tamed the 10/22 might have trouble...

[jreifsch80]

Recoil? It's about a 2 on a scale of 10. I've never noticed. I suppose someone that hasn't tamed the 10/22 might have trouble...

Haha that's funny, I think the reason people are put off by the recoil is how different it feels to a gas op system not as much the intensity. I still need to build my cetma someday, anyone have a bending jig and mandrel? I might just get a ptr91 receiver since they're on sale for 199 right now. Also does

Gcrook, is that hk33 you have a home build or a century? I see the distributors are selling em for almost what kits go for. If it is a century are they built alright? I'm a little gun shy about century builds (pun intended) especially how their early cetmes were built.

[gcrookston]

Gcrook, is that hk33 you have a home build or a century? I see the distributors are selling em for almost what kits go for. If it is a century are they built alright? I'm a little gun shy about century builds (pun intended) especially how their early cetmes were built.

It's Heckler and Koch HK93 with a Fleming sear (3 calibre; 9, 5.56 & 7.62). The one below it is also Heckler and Koch, my 7.62 host.

[jreifsch80]

Oh man that is awesome! I figured the 93 wasn't a century haha so I was thinking probably a kit build. What are hk transferable sears going for now days if you by chance know?

Now you need to find an hk21 kit for another awesome 7.62 host ;)

[monganian]

even with a nice clean gun .223 ak's can be problematic, let alone a romanian ak haha, with feeding and ejection. for some reason ak's don't like .223 as much as the com-bloc rounds i think due to the straighter walls of the cartridge.

your generalization would be like if i sad all ar's have unreliable bolts because they are prone to cracking since some 7.62x39 ar bolts crack ;)

I used to have my nose in the air because I thought that most AR's were high maintenance and AK's were not. I've had a few AK's now and some have jammed while others have not. I just think that video was pretty impressive. Ultimately, I'd pick the gun that you prefer to shoot.

[gcrookston]

jreif -- As I stated in my 1st post on this thread, the quality of the build has everything to do with the reliability and performance of both AR and AK platform guns. There is a lot of junk out there. My Polytech Type 84S is flawless in operation. It's the only 5.56 I own that I shoot steel case in. It's just impossible to jam.

At the time I picked up the sear, I'd ordered an HK23 conversion, but the manufacturer got into trouble with the ATF about that time and it was never built, then I got married... same ol same ol.

I haven't seen a fleming come up for sale in some time, but my buddies over at ASI have a couple of S&H sears (same as fleming), I'd be surprised if they were less than $10k (www.autoweapons.com).

[jreifsch80]

Monganian I was just giving you a hard time. I agree shoot what you prefer. I love both ak's and ar's though I am much more comfortable and familiar with the akm and ak74 platforms. What it really comes down to is that by design ar's are inherently more accurate, and ak's are inherently more reliable, ar's are plenty reliable and ak's are plenty accurate. By the way, my ukrainian buddy said if they would have ever had a malfunction in combat due to a dirty rifle the penalty would have been a court martial and at the very least getting busted.

Crook, I figured hk sears went for at least 10k at least that's not too absurd I guess. You should build a semi auto closed bolt mg42 that uses an hk grip and fcg hehe now that would be an awesome host ;)

[monganian]

no offense taken[Beer]

[gcrookston]

jreif. I think if I do anything further with the sear I'll put it in a dyer MP5N. I've had the thing so long the cost wasn't much more than the tax stamp or the price of my 84s, which I bought new (guess that's dating me).

[Jolly Green]

Here is an interesting article I found concerning AR15/M4 reliability.

http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/


"I fired 2400 rounds of M193 through a 14.5” M4-type upper receiver from Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM) (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/) with no lubrication, and without any rifle-caused malfunctions."

[jerrymrc]

Buy a Dodge and a FAL! [Coffee] Have both but my Dodge is a diesel. ;)

Buy both. In my case I am down to one AK in 7.62 but I have 2 in .223. I went AK in .223 when there was no 5.54 ammo to be had. The .223 mags were cheap back then Vs the 74 mags that were $$$ until Ohio Ordnance had there used buy 12 in pouches for $35.

My AR's are nothing special and both them and the .223 AK's are about the same accuracy wise. The wife has shot hers (AK) out to 600 yards. The ideal situation would have been to buy a 74 when they were giving them away and then all the ammo you could about 5 years ago.

My good handloads in my FEG got my best 762X39 AK to about 3 moa using V-max bullets. I do have to say that any soft target would not want to be hit with one of those at 300 yards.

In all honesty it is what one likes. Kind of like the FAL/M14/G3 debate [Bang]

Once again, Buy both and enjoy both.there may come a time when one does not have a choice. ;)

[ray1970]

One thing to add you always get what you pay for.

So by that logic an AR should be about twice as good as an AK since they usually cost twice as much. [Coffee]

Both are awesome weapons that do what they are intended to do quite well.

[MED]

I have both. I found the AK extremely fun when I was buying ammo for $60-$75 per 1000 15 years ago. At $3.50-$5 per 20, I find it a lot less fun. I rarely take it out now.


What I like about the AK: It is simplistic and it works. When ammo was cheap, the 75 round drum was way too much fun!

What I don’t like about the AK: I am not a fan of the 7.62x39 cartridge. Although effective on human targets in relatively short distances, it is slow and it drops like a brick making the firearm difficult to shoot at distance. The ammunition is heavy to carry in quantity. I don’t like the trigger and the overall weight…the design is overly simple and crude in some ways. I would never set up an AK as a small caliber precision rifle.

What I like about the AR: I really like the caliber selection as well as the accuracy. I love the modular construction that allows the user to carry multiple uppers. With the 308 platform, a person can carry a 20” upper for precision shooting while quickly changing (less than a minute) to a 16” upper for close quarters tactical.

What I don’t like about the AR: The bolt carrier requires maintenance. My personal torture test included 2000 rounds over four months. At the 2000 round count, the bolt carrier was full of carbon and the bolt wouldn’t lock up correctly. Cleaning the bolt carrier is a PIA if the carbon collects on the bolt. If you keep the bolt carrier clean, the gun runs great. In the field, I always have a spare bolt carrier group with me.

[BPTactical]

Two entirely different weapons with entirely different philosophies behind them.

AK - medium range battle weapon designed to be used and maintained by an average Comm Bloc conscripted farm kid straight from the backwoods of the Ukraine or the rice fields of China. Emphasis is placed on sheer numbers and volume of fire. Simple, reliable and robust. While most rifles are built to MOA standards the Kalishnakov based weapons are built to "Minute of Man" standards. Pie plate at 100 meters is considered acceptable accuracy.

AR-Precision weapon system. The US has always placed emphasis on its soldiers being riflemen and well aimed fire. Highly trained on the maintenance and operation of the weapons. Technologically superior to the AK and built to MOA standards.

[68Charger]

What I don’t like about the AK: I am not a fan of the 7.62x39 cartridge. Although effective on human targets in relatively short distances, it is slow and it drops like a brick making the firearm difficult to shoot at distance. The ammunition is heavy to carry in quantity. I don’t like the trigger and the overall weight…the design is overly simple and crude in some ways. I would never set up an AK as a small caliber precision rifle.


The 5.45x39 round (AK74) fixes the majority of these issues- It's similar in ballistics to 5.56x45, and just as small and light.

When I read the above post, I immediately thought of a real interesting build documented on Gunco (by 1biggun) that was an AK built as a .223 (he started with a savage Bull barrel) he tuned the trigger, welded a scope rail to the rear sight block, free-floated the bbl, set a precision headspace & lapped the lugs (as best he could), put on a stock where he could get a great cheek weld, reloaded for the rifle specifically, and he was getting 1/2 MOA accuracy- he used it as a p-dog rig, and fired 1000's of rounds through it.

so light reading: http://www.gunco.net/forums/f3/accurizing-ak-44411/#post503985

It was a very interesting build, and showed what the platform COULD be capable of, if you address the issues with the original design that affect accuracy. I'd like to do a similar build, but right now my 5.56 build I'm doing is based on a 16" weiger barrel, and will get an AR mag adapter from day one (that way all my 5.56 mags will be AR, all my 7.62x39 or 5.45x39 mags will be AK) I'll also install an AR stock adapter, so I can choose from AR stock selections... going to build it similar to a Polish Beryl.

in short, while I agree with BPTactical's comments on what the original AK's purpose was, it's remarkable what can be done with the platform if building with accuracy in mind... it has limits- but if you're going for ultimate accuracy, you're really looking at a bolt gun anyway. (and I'll always keep my Romy G around, in case I need to hand an easy-to-use rifle to an amateur in a SHTF scenario)