View Full Version : Home defense, questions....
I have been wondering what levels of readieness most home defenders are at.
What do you use for your primary weapon (ammo) and why?
What kind (if any) of home defense practice do you do?
How often do you practice tactical skills?
Thanks
Greg
Colorado Osprey
04-29-2006, 15:07
I have been wondering what levels of readieness most home defenders are at. I can't answer for most, but I have a tactical carbine and handgun close at hand and others in the home.
What do you use for your primary weapon (ammo) and why? Primary is a Oly K9 9mm AR-15 with a 32 round mag of Carbine +P+ 147 grain HP Gold dots....red dot site...why..100% reliable, plenty of ammo, and little chance of hitting a neighbor.
What kind (if any) of home defense practice do you do?X-LEO....I had load of practice...it's like riding a bike
How often do you practice tactical skills?
Never, but I do practice stress shooting to simulate the stress that you would be under in that sitaution. Stress can be running a mile right before you shoot and then only using moving targets....or having multiple targets and someone else is timing you for fast time as well as calling which target.
What does everone else do?
What do you use for your primary weapon (ammo) and why?
I've got a Mossberg 500 in the basement (where I spend most of my time when I'm at home) and a USP 9mm upstairs in my nightstand safe. I've got 00 buckshot in the shotgun and 124 gr gold dots in the USP. The way that my house is situated I shouldn't have to worry about hitting the neighbors.
What kind (if any) of home defense practice do you do?
Not much. If my dog starts barking at night I pull out the USP and check the house. It's rare that he does it.
How often do you practice tactical skills?
Almost never. I need to start again.
An 870 behind the front door and another behind the bedroom door, both loaded with 00 buck. A J-Frame in the nightstand loaded with 38 special.
I shoot IPSC, IDPA and 3-gun every weekend. You wont get better gun handling skills anywhere. Tactics, not really. Go to Gunsite or actual classes for that stuff.
Let me add one more thing.
Kids or other family members in the house?
My setup is:
XD-40 in the safe next to pillow, 165g Golden Saber, one clip w/ 12 rds
Tactical NEF 12ga pump w/ "00" buck.
My concern at night is; a daughter sleeping upstairs, second daughter and my mother in law in the basement. No worries of hitting neighbors.
Asha'man
04-30-2006, 21:58
I have my Glock 19 by the head of my bed, but it's just got WWB in it right now, and only 12 rds because that's all I had left after the last shoot. [wink] Besides, I'm not the only one living here (parents and dog) and I sleep like the dead anyway, so I would probably be the last one to know if there was a BG in the house.
I think I'll be pretty much screwed once I move out.
Brian
HunterCO
04-30-2006, 22:18
I have my Glock 19 by the head of my bed, but it's just got WWB in it right now, and only 12 rds because that's all I had left after the last shoot. [wink] Besides, I'm not the only one living here (parents and dog) and I sleep like the dead anyway, so I would probably be the last one to know if there was a BG in the house.
I think I'll be pretty much screwed once I move out.
Brian
Naww it would take a nuclear warhead to wake me up thats why I have a dog. [wink]
She barks and I am up with gun in hand. :mrgreen:
newracer
04-30-2006, 22:30
I have my safe about 3 feet from bed, door is unlocked when I am home. AR inside with two 30 rnd mags filled with Hornady TAP. On top of the safe is a pistol safe with keypad that has a Glock 22 with two 15 rnd mags of Federal.
Haven't trained nearly enough.
Have a GSD that is still a pup but hopefully she will become a nice addition to the home defense.
Asha'man
05-01-2006, 23:39
Naww it would take a nuclear warhead to wake me up thats why I have a dog. [wink]
She barks and I am up with gun in hand. :mrgreen:
The dog barks sometimes at night, enough to make my folks get up and go downstairs to shut him up. I've never woken up at all. Once my sister's highschool friends came by to "kidnap" my sister at about 0630. Eight yelling highschoolers ran up the stairs and directly past my front door, engaged in much noise and commotion, and left the same way. I never even twitched.
It's weird.
Brian
Primary night time would be my colt detective w/+p .38 special hollow points at my nightstand when i am home, its like clockwork, i leave, it goes in the safe, i come home, first thing i do is unlock and place on nightstand. Reason: my most reliable weapon + ease of use + decently powerful. Only downside is lack of capacity. Accuracy also sucks (probably me) but at 6ft or less i seriously doubt i would miss.
Or i have the mossberg 500 18" barrel w/6 buckshot loaded. OR if things are really bad then i can pull out the ar, but with surplus ammo fmj its a killer for the neighbors. It would be my last choice to fire indoors.
Training? I feel confident with my home clearing ability. There have been a couple times where i woke up to a noise and was convinced someone was in my house.
I think a .40 mid or full size glock w/flashlight and night sights would be ideal. If you cant see the sights/target thats not good.
Primary night time would be my colt detective w/+p .38 special hollow points at my nightstand when i am home, its like clockwork, i leave, it goes in the safe, i come home, first thing i do is unlock and place on nightstand. Reason: my most reliable weapon + ease of use + decently powerful. Only downside is lack of capacity. Accuracy also sucks (probably me) but at 6ft or less i seriously doubt i would miss.
Or i have the mossberg 500 18" barrel w/6 buckshot loaded. OR if things are really bad then i can pull out the ar, but with surplus ammo fmj its a killer for the neighbors. It would be my last choice to fire indoors.
Training? I feel confident with my home clearing ability. There have been a couple times where i woke up to a noise and was convinced someone was in my house.
I think a .40 mid or full size glock w/flashlight and night sights would be ideal. If you cant see the sights/target thats not good.
I have also read this: "pump or auto, name your poison. The ultimate home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun"
I just find it easier and more pratical to grab, aim and fire a pistol in a seconds notice. But if time allowed theres no substitute in my mind for a 12 gauge w/buckshot.
GearHead
05-02-2006, 21:13
I got a dog that barks at the sound of crickets, and a 9mm close by.
Hoodyhoo21
05-03-2006, 21:44
I have a ruger p-89 loaded with 124gr +p gold dots in the night stand. I also have the AR in the closet but it isnt loaded, I do have loaded mags for it (Q3131) but I would have to grab them and then the rifle so the AR would really only be used if I knew a threat was comming. But I believe the 25 rounds of gold dots will fend off any atack I will face personally. As for training, I have none. :cry: I can however shoot well, but I know that probably means little in a stressful situation.
pump or auto, name your poison. The ultimate home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun"
Although I agree that a shotgun can be a very effective home defense gun, I am just not ready to give up my hearing discharging a shotgun in close quarters with no muffs. Other rounds from hand guns or carbines can get the job done without sacrificing your ears.
newracer
05-04-2006, 10:10
It would be loud but I doubt it would be loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage.
Plus everybody knows with a pump shotgun go don't even have to shoot. Just rack the slide and the BGs go running. [wink]
That would be loud, but as one LEO pointed out;
"most criminals have either walked away from or had a friend walk away from a pistol hit, none have done it with a shotgun, it scares the hell out of them"
The permanent cavity and blood loss is what gets them (per FBI paper I read), pistols just don't always have what it takes. The FBI paper said 90% of pistol victims live.
Greg
Asha'man
05-04-2006, 22:35
Although I agree that a shotgun can be a very effective home defense gun, I am just not ready to give up my hearing discharging a shotgun in close quarters with no muffs. Other rounds from hand guns or carbines can get the job done without sacrificing your ears.
Not sure I'd rather fire an AR or SKS in close quarters than a 12ga. You'd have the extra sound of the sonic boom from the bullet to deal with too. Plus, your body bypasses minor things like deafness with adrenaline in that kind of situation, so I highly doubt you'd even notice the noise if you were truly faced with a shooting situation.
Brian
I get asked a lot by friends and co workers about what gun they should look to buy for home protection and without fail I ALWAYS recommend a 12ga pump. I tell them exactly what has been said here... the sound of the slide racking back is unmistakable in American culture and will stop just about anyone breaking into a house!
Colorado Osprey
05-05-2006, 16:54
The reasons I don't like a shotgun for home defense:
You can not dirrect every pellet out of it. Sure at very close range they act like a single mass, but in my house there are open areas 60ft across.
Next, if you rack a pump (unmistakable by the way) and the perp is now afraid for their life, you are now NOT in jeopardy for your life and could possibly get crusified in court as the make my day law doesn't protect you anymore; at least that could be argued.
Lastly, I've used an AR in 9mm for years for house clearing, and trust it with my life. Those 32 rounds in a single mag help too. Mind you I don't trust a 9mm handgun with a single shot, but I don't ever plan to shoot someone with one shot. You shoot until the target no longer presents itself as a threat...which is incapacitation.
The following Officer's report would read like this,"Sir, why did you shoot the victim 32 times?" Response from shooter, "I'm the victim, he was in my house and every time a bullet hit him he would move so I would shoot again. I stopped at 32 bullets because my weapon was empty and he didn't move while I reloaded."
In all seriousness; shotguns are great for unskilled home defense, but with proper training there are better options.
A dead perp won't be telling anyone that you made him fear for his life and he tried to escape. If he (or she) is in your house and doing something illegal then you can kill them. They don't have to represent themselves as a threat to you.
newracer
05-05-2006, 22:00
Plus everybody knows with a pump shotgun go don't even have to shoot. Just rack the slide and the BGs go running. [wink]I was being sarcastic. If anything rackingthe slide will just let the perp where you are and may direct fire in your direction.
Colorado Osprey
05-06-2006, 06:42
If he (or she) is in your house and doing something illegal then you can kill them. They don't have to represent themselves as a threat to you.
WRONG
From 18-1-704 2(a)
(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury
It's called homicide and wrongful death. If the bad guy is no longer a threat, the make my day law will no cover you guys; also just because someone is breaking a law does not give you a right to kill them...or attempt the same
CRS 18-1-704
Case Law Rulings:
When an initial aggressor withdraws from an encounter ......the initial victim continues the attack, the victim then becomes the aggressor and is no longer entitled to act in self-defense. People v. Goedecke, 730 P.2d 900 (Colo. App. 1986).
Right to kill in self-defense is not limited to cases where assailant intends to commit a felony. Ritchey v. People, 23 Colo. 314, 47 P. 272 (1896).
I'm not trying to start a pi55ing match, but I just wanted people to know they can not attempt to kill someone just because they are in your house. Being in the house is illegal if you didn't invite them in--trespassing.
Finish quoting the entire law... while you are correct in your partial excerpt, there is MUCH more to it than you've provided , but only quoting part of the law as you have Osprey and a few pieces of case law related is not cool. Everyone should read and understand the ENTIRE law.
Really
2ndChildhood
05-06-2006, 07:32
This thread got me thinking...
How many of us have experienced a situation where we needed home defense weapons?
Then I looked up state crime stats for 2003 & 2004. http://cbi.state.co.us/dr/docs_reports.asp
In 2003 and 2004, adding up the numbers for homicide, rape, robbery, burglary & auto theft the average was a 1.3% chance that one could experience one of these.
(1299 offenses per 100,000 population)
I think there's more than a hundred of us. Which 1.3 of us got hit?
2C
The1andOnlyKC
05-06-2006, 08:32
Colorado Osprey that is the wrong law. That is in defense of a person outside of their home.
If you guys are talking about the Make My Day Law or home defense law. Here it is
18-1-704.5. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.
Statute text
(1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.
(3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.
(4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.
The1andOnlyKC
05-06-2006, 08:33
On another note those.
Colorado Osprey is correct according to the law you cant just start shooting because someone comes in your house. Read the law and post comments.
... and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.
so if they turn and run you better not shoot them in the back. :)
the first part about another crime in addition to trespass is to protect the drunk passed out on your lawn. someone comes into my house uninvited it's a pretty safe bet that they are there to rob me at minimum.
... the sound of the slide racking back is unmistakable in American culture and will stop just about anyone breaking into a house
If you are using that sound to intimidate a bad guy, to be honest, loudly chambering an AR would be pretty intimidating too, becuase it sure doesn't sound like a .22. I am not an experienced 3 gunner, so having a 30 rd mag is more comforting than having to pump a shot gun for every round.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.
If they're in your house and you don't know who they are then it's definately reasonable to believe that they are there with the intent to break the law. They don't have to be breaking a law when you shoot them. Even if they don't intend to break the law you can still shoot them. If they're there to borrow a cup of sugar and you just happened to leave the front door unlocked then chances are they're going to announce their presence.
That doesn't mean that I'm sitting here praying for someone to break into my house so I can shoot them. It just means that if someone breaks into my house I have no idea what they're doing there and I'm going to assume the worst to protect my family and me.
Seems like we may have hijacked the thread... sorry for that, but this issue needs constant discussion..
Section two is the relevant portion for this purposes of this discussion.
“Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.”
... They left this portion specifically vague so that a home defense shooting could not be twisted by local law enforcement and or DA's…. EVERY shooting is surrounded by differing circumstances.. That is such a wide area of definition that I don't think there has been a significant counter to many if any cases that are covered under that law.
Remember that there are other laws which apply to protection of property and self outside of the home and as such, can sometimes relate to how this specific law applies to the situation.
I'm not a lawyer, LEO or what not, but I am an intelligent (easy guys :P ) adult with at least a moderate reading comprehension level. It doesn't take a lawyer to understand that there will be OBVIOUS exceptions to my understanding and the specific situational factors.
=======
Cheapo... my point really is that the sound of a shotgun is FAR more pronounced that that of a bolt on an AR in the minds of most folks. I'm not saying that any loud bolt cycling will garner the generally undivided attention of an intruder. Most have folks I've spoken with have an idea... read mental image.. of what a shotgun can and will do to the human body. Where as most folks, do not truly perceive pistols and rifles as being nearly as pronounced in their effects as a shotgun.
I say this referring to my personal experience with laymen and other people I've spoken with about firearms. .. Just had a laugh thinking about how much differently this would be if it were being had by a good number of Southerners I’ve met and worked with over the last few months [roll]
Right wrong or indifferent, I firmly believe that shotguns are generally more intimidating to the average person, especially when you only have the chambering sound to go by.
=======
Osprey.. Regarding using your 9mm carbine rather than a shotty... I'm happy to hear you've practiced and engaged in training that helps further your skills and confidence with your weapons. Not enough of us do so!!!
I personally believe that for close quarter’s engagements within confined space and having a desire to reduce secondary penetrations along with several other factors; a shotgun is a far more effective weapon. I believe that not just speaking on the physiological facets and implications of the weapon on intruders.
I'm not saying your personal choice as stated is wrong for your ability and location, as a matter of fact I believe it is indeed a good choice for you. If for no other reason than to trust that you know your skills and situation far better than I could.
Then again, I could be wrong on all of the above counts... it's happened once or twice before :)
Hoodyhoo21
05-06-2006, 15:43
Anybody know how this transfers to your car? I expect that if I was in my car and somebody tried to carjack me I would be allowed to use deadly force. What if I was in my house and I saw somebody trying to break into my car? If I confront them and they dont stop could I legally shoot:?:
Anybody know how this transfers to your car? I expect that if I was in my car and somebody tried to carjack me I would be allowed to use deadly force. What if I was in my house and I saw somebody trying to break into my car? If I confront them and they dont stop could I legally shoot:?:
No.
You can not shoot someone over property. In a car jacking, your life maybe at risk if the car jacker has a weapon, or there are mutiple car jackers, or any number of other situations. The key is, would a reasonable person see your life at risk in this particular situation? This would justify the use of lethal force.
Hyunchback
05-06-2006, 20:34
Hoodyhoo21 wrote:
Anybody know how this transfers to your car? I expect that if I was in my car and somebody tried to carjack me I would be allowed to use deadly force. What if I was in my house and I saw somebody trying to break into my car? If I confront them and they dont stop could I legally shoot:?:
In the situation you stipulated you would not be within your rights.
You stated "in my house" and "I confront them". To confront them you have to leave your house, leaving your 'safe area'. Unless you have a specific reason to believe they are going to use the car to enter your house to attack you then you can not confront them, as I understand the current interpretations of law.
Asha'man
05-06-2006, 20:53
What if I was in my house and I saw somebody trying to break into my car? If I confront them and they dont stop could I legally shoot:?:
Nope. You escalated the situation by confronting the perp. Don't do dat.
Brian
yikes you guys are confused... what do you drive and where do you live? [roll]
Asha'man
05-07-2006, 19:44
Meaning.....?
Brian
Hyunchback
05-07-2006, 20:09
yikes you guys are confused... what do you drive and where do you live? [roll]
You wouldn't want it and too far to walk.
KarlPMann
05-09-2006, 01:31
The state courts have already visited many of these exact issues. In the Denver area shooting a few years back a man, responding to a call for help from a neighbor, shot the bad guy in the back nearly " a quarter block away" as he ran from the house. The jury found his defense under the "Make My Day" law was valid. The Appellate/Supreme Court upheld the ruling. The 17 year old, unarmed, bad guy was crippled from the waist down as a result from the gunshot. He failed in his attempt to sue the shooter since the "Make My Day" law has a provision that protects people from civil liability if they successfully defend themselves under this law.
The law was also used in a "Road Rage" incident a few years back by a retired Air Force Colonel that shot and killed an attacker while on the road. The court ruled that the law could be used as a defence because your car is an extension of your home for this purpose. :P
Juries that have made decisions in "Make My Day" cases thus far have found the law to cover much more than even lawmakers intended it to. The public at large are tired of being victims. In this state, if you attack someone, you better have your medical/life coverage up to date. Karl. :twisted:
Well my point is that if you guys aren't willing to defend yourselves and or property, I could use a new car [poke] .. just kidding guys.
You have rights where the defense of your person and property are concerned (as Karl pointed out) and not knowing those rights can and will make you a victim.
I really hope you guys will take the time to speak to someone more knowing that us here about these issues!!!
I like the way the thread has curves in it ....
I'm learning a lot and this still relates to the topic, loosely.
It's too bad the proposed bill on cars and hotel rooms got nuked. It would have been much clearer.
Most of us can rack a slide on a SG fairly quietly, so if I really want to shoot someone that doesn't know I'm there, I can. I keep my carry arm (XD-40) on the nightstand and my SG not much further away (pipe empty). My XD is always loaded, so they won't hear it either.....
One problem nobody has covered is eye sight at night. My eyes dry out at night (I sleep w/ my eyes open), so I might not be able to focus well enough to shoot the pistol accurately. I need the extra advantage the SG offers. Five "00" bucks and one slug have a better chance of hitting than the 22 golden sabres. Maybe the addrenaline rush will over come they dryness, I can't say.
As for the laws.
I would much rather explain to the investegating LEO why the guy is dead in my living room INSTEAD of bing the one in the bag. On the other hand;
I don't see a need to shoot someone on my property, unless they are waiving a gun around. My dad and I could have done that many times in the house/ranch we had years back.
My truck isn't worth me sitting in the can while my kids grow up. Posessions can be replaced. It sucks to think about, but that's just the way it needs to be. Relying on a jury to decide if I was the agressor isn't fun to think about.
One parting thought and thanks.
I like the way everyone can discuss views and not get crappy with each other. Good job people!!!!!!
Greg
I think there's more than a hundred of us. Which 1.3 of us got hit?
2C
Me and my mine, kind of.
As for you that use a SG's, Try shooting at a hostage target at about 20 ft and see if you like what you see. If you are shooting slugs, you'll be fine, if not...
Hyunchback
05-09-2006, 18:23
Okay, you win.
I'm not going to post what I could cleverly reply about the car. Anything posted in this thread that could justify a shooting would be fodder for a plaintiff's attorney in a civil suit or even a prosecuting attorney in a criminal trial.
So, you win. You got my car.
Stupid sucker! It gets less than 20 miles to the gallon and needs to be washed!
Stupid sucker! It gets less than 20 miles to the gallon and needs to be washed!
eheheh ... yeah never mind [roll]
=====
No I wouldn't want to shoot a perp who is holding a hostage but that changes everything!!!! But so does a cop showing up in the middle of things because you and he are buddies and he forgot his coffee cup.
The point is that there are too many variables to cover every possible situation. If you give thought to how to defend your home, discuss it with the other folks living there and have a viable plan for the fundimentals, all should be fairly OK.
This is common sense folks, if we wish to discuss the finer points of every possible situation, then lets do it in another thread. Right now, what do you do? That was where all of this started :)
As this thread has been developing, I have been both learning and thinking.
Our household understanding is this;
1) If there is a loud noise in the house, nobody is allowed to check it out other than me. If for any reason they see my flashlight (they all know what my tac lights look like, I have shown them...) they are not to move.
2) if I have to shoot, I will if nobody is behind the crook.
3) I will not shoot if there is a hostage, unless there is a lot of room between them and the crook. If there is a gun to their head, then forget it. Me shooting the crook in the head will only cause him to pull the trigger (muscles contract as a reaction to force). I'm not a sniper, I'm not trained to make an incapacitating shot. I drop the shotgun, they make a mistake and end up with a bunch of 40 S&W holes in them........ Theoretically....
I like the shotgun now more than my XD, the descussions here helped that. That's not to say I won't have the pistol tucked into my waist band.
For practice, I like to shoot at the local combat and defensive competitions. I am waiting for some of the local instructors to put on a low light/no light class for pistol and whatever other weapons they will teach. I also target shoot and dry fire practice as well. I like Gabe S.'s book. It showed me just how much of a neophyte I was/am.
I'm sure there is holes in my plan, but we had to start somewhere. I have 6yr old and 12yr old daughters plus wife and her mother. Two in the basement, three in the upper level. Psychotic dog in my closet (no joking, big walk in closet).
Greg
pump or auto, name your poison. The ultimate home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun"
Although I agree that a shotgun can be a very effective home defense gun, I am just not ready to give up my hearing discharging a shotgun in close quarters with no muffs. Other rounds from hand guns or carbines can get the job done without sacrificing your ears.
actually i have found that a short barrel pistol, take my .38 spec. detective for example can be quite hard on the ears also. i think having the barrel so much farther away helps, but yeah, the echos gotta be a killer.
but really now, how concerned with your hearing are you going to be when you are fearing for your life or the lives of others???
and a couple 12ga blasts arnt going to permanantly hurt anything, at least i dont think. im not a hearing expert. but i have shot many guns w/o protection (yeah stupid, you pay on the drive back) even the click of the turn signal hurts.
anyways, easy to use, quite powerful at close range. and its more of a point and shoot, easy to hit or at least skim target at close range even at the waist! yeah, i believe 00 buckshot is 9 pellets at around 30cal each flying pretty darn fast at the muzzle. they'd probably cause more damage than a auto 9mm (also a .30cal i believe, well .38 but isnt that still considered .30cal??) mp5 holding down on 10 shots. the jackets provides more penetration though. which isnt always good anyways, especially in a home! some people think a .22 is more of a toy than anything. worthless for home defense, which most cases they are. but the lack of penetration power can cause it to bounce inside, like between ribs causing extreme internal damage... way more than an extreme round for defense, like a .308
anyways, once again, im my mind theres no beating the 12ga pump. even a cheap one (meaning mossberg) is quite reliable and easy to use.
i had problems with a couple 870s ive had though, amazingly enough. being standard police issue forever youd think it would be better. i had 2 brand new ones, one was just bottom line 18 or 20" and another was the mariner, the nickel plated one. it was quite heavy and screwed up more than the original one! wont buy one of those again, i have had great luck with the beretta 1201fp semi. excellent gun. all interchangeable with benelli parts and same gas system. you have to use at least med loads though, wont cycle the cheapo target $4 box shells. if i had the money and knew where to get one, i would buy another, favorite shotgun of all time. light recoil, rifle sights, and it worked flawlessly!!! anyways im bored and i like to talk about guns. sorry about the long ass post
pump or auto, name your poison. The ultimate home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun"
Although I agree that a shotgun can be a very effective home defense gun, I am just not ready to give up my hearing discharging a shotgun in close quarters with no muffs. Other rounds from hand guns or carbines can get the job done without sacrificing your ears.
ok had to look it up. i remember my .45 seems to be very loud... you closer to the noise producer. here are some stats - anything over like 85 for periods of time will cause hearing loss....
Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)
.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB
26" barrel 150.25dB
18 _" barrel 156.30dB
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB
22" barrel 154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18 _" barrel 161.50dB
Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel 163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB
Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB
i dont think that the 10 decibels is a deciding factor, when given the choice between rifle pistol and shotgun for inside defense use.
That would be loud, but as one LEO pointed out;
"most criminals have either walked away from or had a friend walk away from a pistol hit, none have done it with a shotgun, it scares the hell out of them"
The permanent cavity and blood loss is what gets them (per FBI paper I read), pistols just don't always have what it takes. The FBI paper said 90% of pistol victims live.
Greg
correct, 90% survival rate on average from being shot with a pistol. rifle/shotgun (not sure why its not seperated) is more like 30-35%.
but then again, the goal in defense isnt to kill, its to nuetralize the threat, not their life. torso just happens to be the easiest part to hit. but with pistols a lot of the time they dont even know that they are shot. especially when drugs are involved...
i once read a news story about a guy who was hit over 10 times in the chest area with a 9mm pistol. he eventually got on a bus and went to the hospital on his own. i dont know the source of that so dont quote me! but i can see that as possible...
The reasons I don't like a shotgun for home defense:
You can not dirrect every pellet out of it. Sure at very close range they act like a single mass, but in my house there are open areas 60ft across.
Next, if you rack a pump (unmistakable by the way) and the perp is now afraid for their life, you are now NOT in jeopardy for your life and could possibly get crusified in court as the make my day law doesn't protect you anymore; at least that could be argued.
Lastly, I've used an AR in 9mm for years for house clearing, and trust it with my life. Those 32 rounds in a single mag help too. Mind you I don't trust a 9mm handgun with a single shot, but I don't ever plan to shoot someone with one shot. You shoot until the target no longer presents itself as a threat...which is incapacitation.
The following Officer's report would read like this,"Sir, why did you shoot the victim 32 times?" Response from shooter, "I'm the victim, he was in my house and every time a bullet hit him he would move so I would shoot again. I stopped at 32 bullets because my weapon was empty and he didn't move while I reloaded."
In all seriousness; shotguns are great for unskilled home defense, but with proper training there are better options.
also though, you may have 60ft of open space in one place but first thats not average. and then most shootings (civilian to civilian) either defense or criminal happen at a distance of less than 5ft. unless you dumping round after round (or auto, an mp5, yeah, but i still wouldnt choose it over the trusty 12ga) i dont see the 9mm being effective enough!!
and what about armor? highly unlikely but, well, neither will penetrate but the power of even a weak birdshot target load will seriously hurt and put just about anyone on the ground. we've all seen the hollywood BofA shootout, their 9mms didnt seem to affect those guys at all!
A dead perp won't be telling anyone that you made him fear for his life and he tried to escape. If he (or she) is in your house and doing something illegal then you can kill them. They don't have to represent themselves as a threat to you.
not really true. if you have an escape method and choose to hunt and kill your probably going to get screwed. if not in legally then for sure in a civil suit, the family can take everything you own!
you can only use deadly force, wether in your home or on the street if your life or someone elses life is in immediate danger. if you can flee then you can avoid that danger. its not open criminal hunting grounds. but if you feel in danger, then thats hard to argue with. theres a criminal inside your home. who knows their intent.
now on the other hand, if you have kids or family, or really anyone that could be in immediate danger if you dont act then even though you can escape you can still protect.
If he (or she) is in your house and doing something illegal then you can kill them. They don't have to represent themselves as a threat to you.
WRONG
From 18-1-704 2(a)
(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury
It's called homicide and wrongful death. If the bad guy is no longer a threat, the make my day law will no cover you guys; also just because someone is breaking a law does not give you a right to kill them...or attempt the same
CRS 18-1-704
Case Law Rulings:
When an initial aggressor withdraws from an encounter ......the initial victim continues the attack, the victim then becomes the aggressor and is no longer entitled to act in self-defense. People v. Goedecke, 730 P.2d 900 (Colo. App. 1986).
Right to kill in self-defense is not limited to cases where assailant intends to commit a felony. Ritchey v. People, 23 Colo. 314, 47 P. 272 (1896).
I'm not trying to start a pi55ing match, but I just wanted people to know they can not attempt to kill someone just because they are in your house. Being in the house is illegal if you didn't invite them in--trespassing.
excellently said! i should read the whole this whole thing before i start responding... not trespassing though, inside your home with obvious intent to commit a crime = burglary
KarlPMann
06-25-2006, 07:28
Ummmm, very sorry to disagree, but.....
In one of the most publicized test cases when the law was passed....
A man, answering to a call of help from his neighbor, shot and crippled a 17 year old unarmed burglar as he ran away from the house. [poke] The defendant later tried to sue the man, but the case was dismissed under the make my day law's civil clause. Karl. :P :twisted:
Ummmm, very sorry to disagree, but.....
In one of the most publicized test cases when the law was passed....
A man, answering to a call of help from his neighbor, shot and crippled a 17 year old unarmed burglar as he ran away from the house. [poke] The defendant later tried to sue the man, but the case was dismissed under the make my day law's civil clause. Karl. :P :twisted:
wow... yeah. i wouldnt rely on it though! and still, i wouldnt want to live with killing an unarmed 17 year old, who was actually fleeing. thats more legal murder, or at least attempted compared to self defense.
but then on the other hand if more people shoot first, ask questions later those punk ass 17 year olds who dont give a sh** might start thinking twice before they try these things in the first place.
If you keep a fire arm near your bed at night... if you carry one in your car (purely for transport reasons.. uh yeah... that's it) or even carry one on you and you are not ready able and willing to shoot to kill, then sell the weapon or better yet, just put it in the safe until you're ready to head to the range.
The fact of the matter is that fire arms have one single purpose, the killing of a living being.. and if you believe that it isn't then please for the sake of all around you, step away from the firearm. I will even, rather militantly, challenge anyone to dispute that rather fundimental fact of small arms.
This is a great thread, it has hopefully caused several of us to give serious thought to the defense of our homes and property. There are conflicting stories and points of view on the law, but as I have said twice before, check it out for yourself... take a few minutes and see if you can stop by the local cop shop and grab a few minutes of an officers time. Call your DA's office and discuss it with them.. but don't just take what you see on the internet as complete.
Think about how you can and will defend your home. Have the discussion with your family and or roomates. Ensure you have a plan for dealing with home intrusion. Don't leave something like this to chance, you've already started down that road by purchasing and maintaining a firearm within your home, don't be negligent and stop there.
[quote="BadShot"]If you keep a fire arm near your bed at night... if you carry one in your car (purely for transport reasons.. uh yeah... that's it) or even carry one on you and you are not ready able and willing to shoot to kill, then sell the weapon or better yet, just put it in the safe until you're ready to head to the range.
The fact of the matter is that fire arms have one single purpose, the killing of a living being.. and if you believe that it isn't then please for the sake of all around you, step away from the firearm. I will even, rather militantly, challenge anyone to dispute that rather fundimental fact of small arms.
quote]
thats not the point at all. the point was shoot because you HAVE to. NOT simply because you can.
there are more purposes rather than just killing people/animals. many guns are specifically made for recreation/competition and many would be horribly unfit for use as a weapon.
but yeah, i agree, for the most part they are made specificly for killing
Not to nit pick, but I didn't say shoot because you can, I said realize that if you are not willing to take a life then don't pretend to have the weapon for self defense. Perhaps this is my personal training coming back to play..
1. Never pull a gun on anyone
2. If you have to pull a gun on someone, use it
3. If you're going to use a gun, make sure you kill what your shooting at
And thanks Jess.. I did neglect to think about the sport specific weapons, while the majority will still do exactly what they are based on (taking a life) most are geared to specific tasks other than killing.
HunterCO
06-28-2006, 08:33
If he (or she) is in your house and doing something illegal then you can kill them. They don't have to represent themselves as a threat to you.
WRONG
From 18-1-704 2(a)
(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury
It's called homicide and wrongful death. If the bad guy is no longer a threat, the make my day law will no cover you guys; also just because someone is breaking a law does not give you a right to kill them...or attempt the same
CRS 18-1-704
Case Law Rulings:
When an initial aggressor withdraws from an encounter ......the initial victim continues the attack, the victim then becomes the aggressor and is no longer entitled to act in self-defense. People v. Goedecke, 730 P.2d 900 (Colo. App. 1986).
Right to kill in self-defense is not limited to cases where assailant intends to commit a felony. Ritchey v. People, 23 Colo. 314, 47 P. 272 (1896).
I'm not trying to start a pi55ing match, but I just wanted people to know they can not attempt to kill someone just because they are in your house. Being in the house is illegal if you didn't invite them in--trespassing.
A word of advice before you tell somebody they are WRONG when in fact it is you that are wrong you might want to actually read the correct statue. The physical force statue you quoted is not the make my day law. The make my day law clearly states a person is justified in the use of deadly force in their home when they have reason to believe an unlawful entry has been made and that person has criminal intent. It also states that a person who uses deadly force under that statue is immune from criminal or civil liability.
KarlPMann
06-28-2006, 09:10
Yup! Karl. [poke]
chrisguy
07-09-2006, 18:59
Couple years ago our house was robbed in broad daylight. I got home to let the dog out maybe 30min after they'd left, according to the neighbor -- who didn't call the cops despite the Neighborhood Watch/We Call Police sign 50ft from our driveway, and having said she "didn't think they should be there". [shock2] :evil:
Dog was a 16-y-o wolf mix who wouldn't have helped much, but provided enough deterrent to keep them from going past the barricade into the basement, where she and the TV and such were. They still got over $12k of stuff, and had picked up a big knife from the kitchen and a handmade Kali/Escrima stick (martial arts) - roughly a 1"x30" piece of cured birdseye maple. Definitely would have considered them armed with intent if I'd been there. Found both weapons on the floor near where they grabbed most of my wife's jewelry.
Cops were no help [detective] even though we had a good idea of who was behind it (not the ones who actually entered the house). Fortunately no one was hurt, and they never found the magnum. We did a full theft report natch, and because it was mostly jewelry that wasn't specifically valued/insured, we only got like $2k back.
Sorry to ramble... just wanted to add this for a real-life example. Had I been home at time of entry... blah blah blah blah blah... Had I arrived a bit earlier to find their truck in the driveway... we'll never know. Still torques me if ya can't tell. Oh and fyi they crawled in through the dog door. Ours is now sealed/boarded so thoroughly you'd need heavy tools and some time to bust it open, but if you've got one take a good look at the size. Many are large enough for a smallish person to squeeze through.
Stay safe all.
EDIT: thought about this post later and realized I probably came off badly. Removed what later sounded/looked like posturing about my martial arts. Also wanted to add that I'm not anti-cop, wasn't trying to cop-bash. Just frustrated with that particular experience all over agian, thinking about it... not their fault the prints didn't turn up anything, etc.
Carry on.
Ummmm, very sorry to disagree, but.....
In one of the most publicized test cases when the law was passed....
A man, answering to a call of help from his neighbor, shot and crippled a 17 year old unarmed burglar as he ran away from the house. [poke] The defendant later tried to sue the man, but the case was dismissed under the make my day law's civil clause. Karl. :P :twisted:
Ummm, Karl, is there something we need to know...... LOL
I look at it as if the guy is running away, probably outside the house, not carrying off my stuff or kids. He is beyond my responsibility to fling lead at.
On a side note.
I like to see how many sheep there are when I'm in a store. I often make people nervous checking them out, but oh well. Point is, I take inventory of everyone and run through scenarios in my noggin. I like to know ahead of time at what point I would draw and fire if something were to happen. Knowing a target and what's behind it, what ways do I have to escape, ect.... I feel better just having gone through the scenario (out or home). If I do have to shoot, I hope I am better prepared for that decision. It helps with stuff like what happened above to know what your first move would be.
Greg
PS.
I agree with jesseb on the intent to kill. If they die because I'm not a trick shot and have to shoot for their chest cavity, then that was their choice to put thierselves in that situation. I need a sticker that says "I'm a bad shot, so I'll be aiming for your chest so I can hit you. Oh yeah, it might kill you."
also, HunterCO/Karl.
At what point are we allowed to stop someone that has just robbed my house? ie, still on my property, running from it......
chrisguy
07-13-2006, 19:09
On a side note.
I like to see how many sheep there are when I'm in a store. I often make people nervous checking them out, but oh well. Point is, I take inventory of everyone and run through scenarios in my noggin...
I do the same thing - each of the martial arts teachers I've had stressed the need for situational awareness (tho some more than others, depending on the class). Size up your surroundings, look for "outs" as you do in traffic, see who's going to be the bigger/-est challenge/risk/threat and prioritize before anything starts, etc. Always try to avoid conflict if possible, but if you can't, act decisively and quickly. Made the mistake of ignoring a drunk a-hole's two friends once (all parties unarmed) ...won't happen again.
I'm interested in hearing the answer to your ? about stopping someone in flight. If the guy was clearly unarmed I wouldn't hesitate to give chase, but not sure I'd grab a gun if he was already in the street.
[popcorn]
KarlPMann
07-13-2006, 19:42
also, HunterCO/Karl.
At what point are we allowed to stop someone that has just robbed my house? ie, still on my property, running from it......
It all comes down to ONE question, at what point do you feel your life/health/safety is at threat? When the answer is "NOW", then shoot. Karl.
I wouldn't shoot unless the situation called for it. What I was interested in is if we have alegal leg to stand on if we try to stop someone that has something of ours from fleeing outside our house?
I really ought to be ask Dudley Brown to clarify this stuff for us more.
I don't think it's on their Q&A page ( http://www.rmgo.org/faq/index.shtml )
side note,
If you aren't a member of RMGO, please consider it.....
www.rmgo.org
I'm not feeling too well this week, so I may be off track on my thinking/posts. Sorry guys, results of working 5 days straight and almost no sleep.....
Greg
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