View Full Version : I know we're united here on the 2nd Amendment...but how about the 1st?
Glock Shooter
04-03-2011, 08:00
http://www.change.org/petitions/dont-punish-high-school-journalists-for-telling-the-truth#?opt_new=t&opt_fb=t
IMO this is just wrong. Shut down the press first.....what's next? It's the CONSTITUTION and I say DON'T MESS WITH IT!!! Agree or disagree with the article in question isn't the issue, the issue is, does a "power" have the right to censor the press? You decide.....
OVERVIEW
The principal of a Colorado high school has shut down the student newspaper -- for truthfully reporting on the death of a classmate. Telling students that their story was "too big for a high school paper," he yanked the students' faculty advisor from her position, changed their journalism class to a non-publishing class and shut down the paper.
Censoring student journalists in Colorado isn't just wrong. It's illegal. Colorado student journalists and their journalism advisors are protected by a state law that says they have the right to exercise freedom of speech and of the press.
But Principal Leon Lundie of Overland High School in Aurora, Colo., blatantly disregarded the law in an attempt to silence a story the students reported about a fellow student who died as a result of an injury during a wrestling tournament. Even though the students backed up the story with interviews and research - and even provided Lundie with the student's death certificate - he reportedly told them that the story "lacked balance."
When the students said they'd go ahead with the story, Lundie told them it would be the last issue they'd publish, hauled their advisor into a meeting and fired her, and said through a spokesperson that the newspaper was shutting down due to "budget concerns" - a rationale refuted by the students themselves, who say they're not over budget. The ACLU and the Student Press Law Center are speaking up for these students - let's add our voices as well.
Can you help make this right? Taking a stand will send a message to Overland High -- and other schools watching this story -- that we care about freedom of speech in American high schools. Speak up for the young journalists of The Overland Scout and their advisor, Laura Sudik, and tell Overland High School's principal: Don't shut down a student paper for telling the truth!
Scanker19
04-03-2011, 08:17
Just to cause a ruckus, it does say "congress shall make no law....."[Beer]
Interested in the replies.
hammer03
04-03-2011, 09:19
yes and no. They're allowed to publish whatever they want, and say what they want. But that doesn't mean the school has to fund it. Now if the students and the faculty advisor wanted to get some funding on their own, and publish the things their "non publishing" class ideas, they wouldn't be allowed to stop them from publishing.
How old is the majority of teens? Under 18, you have no rights (unless Illegal Immigrant). Foxtrot is right, it's education. That's why we can do nothing about all the Libtard teachers in this state that spew their nonsense to our children.
Read that story last week. Comes across as "a few people in a pissing contest" that spilled-over to this reported issue. Candidly, while this event/paper may be the center-of-the-universe for this group involved and did draw some head-lines, I have no interest.
Taxpayer funded education, taxpayer funded salary of the principal. maybe the people should decide.
They are not making any money off the paper...quite the opposite. personally I don't want to see any more journalists and story tellers being born because the media is large enough and shitty enough as it is...shut the bitch down.
Of course people have the freedom of speech, but these kids are there to learn. From the little bit of the article I read it seems to me that the principal was basically keeping the students from having more drama go on in the school. The kids should be reading their assigned textbooks...or maybe even read and memorize the constitution instead of keeping up on the latest gossip at the school. enough of that happens outside the classroom.
School papers IMO are an absolute waste of money. never once did I read anything in any grade level from the school paper. With budget cuts going on in the schools some things need to be slashed. this sounds like a great start to me.
How old is the majority of teens? Under 18, you have no rights (unless Illegal Immigrant). Foxtrot is right, it's education. That's why we can do nothing about all the Libtard teachers in this state that spew their nonsense to our children.
OH, but WE can! that is why I substitute teach! I consider myself the voice of reason!!![Coffee]
Daniel_187
04-03-2011, 09:58
When I was in HS it seemed liked no kid had rights
OH, but WE can! that is why I substitute teach! I consider myself the voice of reason!!![Coffee]
There needs to be more of you and less of them. Your a minority in the teaching community for sure. We should "elect" our teachers. IMO.
There needs to be more of you and less of them. Your a minority in the teaching community for sure. We should "elect" our teachers. IMO.
That would be awesome to do that...yet very few people want to put up with all those kids 5 days a week...for pretty poor starting pay and relatively poor finishing pay. The biggest perk they have is the retirement.
Most definitely a minority. My wife is a middle ground republican/conservative...but a lot of the teachers around her are not even close and do not hide it. very liberal and even harp on her for being a republican...even the principal has made comments.
But there are several of them. Her good friend she teaches with is very conservative and her husband and I are good friends and hunt together. The gym teacher at her school is also a hunter and conservative. So at least there are a few!
Most kids reflect off their parents though. IMO few kids take the teachers liberal views into a perspective where they think the same way...most of them don't catch on. Most kids spew the same words of their parents. I have seen kids that were super pro obama and thought he was the messiah and going to save the whole world...then on the opposite extreme the kids that said obama was the devil and was the worst mistake ever made and he should get deported and doesn't have a birth certificate and can't be president...the list goes on!
where the biggest hurdle is IMO is the collegiate level. BUT, most of them already have a mindset and are fueled one extreme or the other by the professor. A lot has to do with the field of study as well. In the aviation program I was in we were all pretty conservative, but you go to the arts department and you will see the opposite.
a high school principal acting like a potentate?
that's unpossible.
Who the hell even reads a school paper anyway? Sure the principal is a jerkoff but if this was really about getting this story out the kids would just take a ride down to Kinkos and print off a few copies. You have the right of freedom of press not to the funding of one. If it is that important to you make it happen.
Edit: I would also like to note that I am pretty sure no one here is under the illusion that public schools are bastions of rights in any for, considering it's for the children and all...
Sniper, your view point is extremely sad. You obviously were never in a newspaper class. The newspaper is a great way to learn how to operate a newspaper in a very hands on setting. That includes fund raising.
You get the same amount of hands on in newspaper as you do in woodshop. Producing an article about a student's death is a pretty far cry from gossip. The opposite I'd say.
I wrote for my school newspaper for a few year. We had to fund it ourselves. The teacher was also the English teachers for all the grades. Some pretty disappointing view points in this thread. Very sad.
personally I don't want to see any more journalists and story tellers being born because the media is large enough and shitty enough as it is...shut the bitch down.
Classic, would read again. Goddamn journalists and story tellers being born to get into the giant and shitty media industry.
H.
They are not making any money off the paper...quite the opposite.
you sure they're high school and not professional?
Sniper, your view point is extremely sad. You obviously were never in a newspaper class. The newspaper is a great way to learn how to operate a newspaper in a very hands on setting. That includes fund raising.
You get the same amount of hands on in newspaper as you do in woodshop. Producing an article about a student's death is a pretty far cry from gossip. The opposite I'd say.
I wrote for my school newspaper for a few year. We had to fund it ourselves. The teacher was also the English teachers for all the grades. Some pretty disappointing view points in this thread. Very sad.
nope, I wasn't. and we didn't have woodshop either but I would have liked that class. all the paper did was print my picture in their articles for school sports.
I am sorry you don't like my viewpoint, but the school paper seems like an absolute waste of money to me. especially these days when everything is digital...all the paper junkies should just mass text each other or make a paper in email format. people could easily sign up for the email and get it if they want to. In the day and age of going green and saving the planet I think the school paper should be the first thing to go. because the only place those papers went when I was in school...straight in the trash.
you sure they're high school and not professional?
This was a reference to show they are a waste of money. nothing is gained from the school paper. money is spent, paper is wasted, a teacher paid for a non-essential class where very few students are active in the class relative to the amount of students at the school.
Schools are vastly over budget. they waste a ton of money, and the school paper is one class that can be cut, affect few students and not many people will be in an uproar.
school transportation is one of the biggest costs. something needs to be done where parents pay extra if their kids ride the bus.
school sports are another, and most schools are having kids either do a fundraiser to pay the amount of having the parents pay a certain amount to help offset the cost.
everyone bitches and moans about the .gov spending too much money, schools wasting money etc etc...yet when someone says a class is worthless and should be cut, you guys jump in and want to save a worthless school paper....no wonder schools are broke.
class sizes are pushing 40 students in primary classes like english and math and science, teachers are being cut to save on the budget, but we should save the school paper? time to figure out some priorities and cut the pork.
Classic, would read again. Goddamn journalists and story tellers being born to get into the giant and shitty media industry.
H.
so you enjoy listening to the BS on cnn, msnbc, cbs, nbc, cnbc and fox?
people are always on here talking about how shitty the news channels are, warping the truth to fit into their political profile for each station. Fox tells it one way, CNN tells it the other way.
What is your, irving and arz's reasoning for wanting to keep the paper around. what benefit does it provide on a educational level? what does it bring to the "entire school"? where does it fit into the school or districts plan to EDUCATE students...all of them, or at least a major percentage?
Just like wood shop, auto shop, and computer programming, the newspaper class taught a real life skill, completely hands on, for those who wanted to take the class. It doesn't matter that no one actually read the newspaper. No one looked at anyone's wood shop projects either. If you want to talk about an activity that costs a lot of money and brings almost zero return to students, we should talk about sports. How many students go pro and make a career from high school sports? Very, very few.
I didn't care about high school sports one bit, but I'd never say that they were worthless and shouldn't be allowed at school just because I didn't participate in them. That's the only point I was making.
Don't get me wrong that I'm some newspaper snob either, I got into the class on a fluke and didn't learn anything. I think I even lettered in newspaper. Not intentionally of course.
What is your, irving and arz's reasoning for wanting to keep the paper around. what benefit does it provide on a educational level? what does it bring to the "entire school"? where does it fit into the school or districts plan to EDUCATE students...all of them, or at least a major percentage?
You can't be serious? What does any class bring to the entire school? I guess they shouldn't teach math any more because no one is looking at anyone else's math test scores. Get real man. 99% of electives don't mean anything to 99% of the students; only those participating. That doesn't mean they should be gotten rid of though. Especially if they are self funded like the newspaper class I took was.
You can't be serious? What does any class bring to the entire school? I guess they shouldn't teach math any more because no one is looking at anyone else's math test scores. Get real man. 99% of electives don't mean anything to 99% of the students; only those participating. That doesn't mean they should be gotten rid of though. Especially if they are self funded like the newspaper class I took was.
besides property taxes, states are graded and funded largely based on CSAP scores...which are graded on reading, writing, math and science.
what is sad is they are not graded on social studies/history. even an immigrant applying for a green card or citizenship is graded on more history (as far as a state or federal assessment is concerned), than a k-12 student.
sports bring students together, the band gets to show up and perform, the cheerleaders and dance teams show up, teachers, principals, administrators etc etc. plus it is entertaining and it also makes a decent amount of money for the schools that charge admission. not only that, but they keep kids doing well in school. every school requires their students to maintain their grades in order to participate.
In the end, this is just a difference of opinion on who thinks what is important. i look at the paper as a waste of money, resources and education time. the benefit is extra education in proper grammar and writing skills, i'll give them that.
I think this thread is about ready to take an Evil Knievel jump off the tracks
The other class that I was going to point out is Home Economics. Probably a pretty expensive class. Hardly anyone takes it. Zero benefit to the entire school.
I wish everyone would take it though, for all four years.
I think we're about settled now. I just wanted to make my point that just because someone doesn't care about something, doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist.
The other class that I was going to point out is Home Economics. Probably a pretty expensive class. Hardly anyone takes it. Zero benefit to the entire school.
I wish everyone would take it though, for all four years.
I think we're about settled now. I just wanted to make my point that just because someone doesn't care about something, doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist.
i took home ec all four years i played varsity sports all thru the year and it was a first period class. Nothing like coming from the gym to class where we made breakfast everyday[Beer]
It taught me many useful things that i use quite a bit.
and the girls where decent looking[Swim]
ldmaster
04-04-2011, 23:08
Who is on the journalism staff. The story is much broader than that. The story essentially pointed to the principal as having made administrative decisions that hindered the investigation of the student's death.
This principal is in his first year as principal at Overland. Of his first official acts he fired the entire security staff, and brought in "his own people". Last year when dropping off and picking up, I would observe security staff on the grounds observing and watching the kids to make sure they keep out of trouble while leaving school.
This year even FINDING a security staff member is difficult to do, I've watched a couple of fights in the parking lot go off, finish, and the parties leave before security would arrive. In one case I glanced at my watch, and it was ten minutes. And this was at the end of the school day.
He's very very interested in being able to say he "cleaned things up", and not so interested in the students themselves. Just my opinion, but whereas the last principal had regular meetings with the surrounding neighborhoods and an open-door policy with parents. This year you must state a specific reason when requesting an appointment to see him, and he's gone to exactly zero community meetings to address some of the very real problems that his students create in the surrounding area.
As for the 1st amendment rights, a school IS a "government entity" and it is bound by the same strictures that bind any other government agency. The school board is a freely elected body and all functions under that board are subject to the constitution.
It is a very murky area, however, for students and their constitutional rights. All a school need do is cite "safety" reasons and suddenly a students rights can be curtailed. Like wearing a shirt depicting the Alamo, or carrying a 1 inch piece of semi-sharp metal for eating your food. the supremes have ruled again and again that a school's role in teaching things is paramount, and that student's, being minors, are not allowed the full panoply of rights as an adult would be.
That being said, there is no freedom of speech in ANY school, simply because they run a school like it's "animal farm". If you say things that agree with their socialist/liberal agenda, you are branded a 'courageous hero', and stating anything that even remotely leans right, gets you labeled as a racist bigot, and worse, actively and openly criticized by your teachers.
Public schools have long been known as pulpits for the left, they wont give that up easily - as long as they can control the agenda, our students will be exposed to exactly ONE version of things - that version being pre-approved by them.
There's more to this principal than just an administrator - he's a dangerous example of the type of politically correct staff that Cherry Creek Schools seeks to promote.
theGinsue
04-04-2011, 23:28
Like others have said, they are there for an education.
It looks to me like they've learned a valuable lesson here: you can't say anything you want on someone elses dime - there are limits. Just as there are legitimate limits to the 1st Amendment (liable, slander, etc.). Sure, you CAN say anything you like under the guise of the 1st Amendment, but there can (and often are) consequences. In this case, the consequences are that the person in charge of the purse strings cut the program.
The are getting an education in journalism and learning how to write. This doesn't mean that their comments/stories HAVE to be published or that the public has an obligation to pay for their "right". This is just as true as if a group of students (let's say it was the schools chapter of the National Honor Society) wanted to have a school assembly because they wanted to discuss an important topic - say to discuss the erosion of our 2nd Amendment rights. Do you honestly think the school has any obligation to allow those students the platform in which to voice their concerns? Do you think the school would even consider such a request for an instant? No and no. Does this mean the students 1st Amendment rights were violated? Hardly.
As has already been said in this thread, if they want to fund their own paper and get it published on their own dime - or that of private sponsors, more power to them.
Personally I think schools need to get back to focusing on the fundamentals that so many of todays students seem to be failing miserably at meeting even the basic standards.
ETA: Now, to address ldmaster's comments: There definitely seems to be a far greater issue at play than simply students 1A rights getting violated. It appears that this principle need to be investigated by the district or even the State Board of Education. But, if the students honestly thought they had a snowballs chance of addressing those concerns through the school paper, their naivety at their age is outstanding. They are failing to use the proper forums and avenues to address these concerns and to seek corrective action.
Thanks for the eloquence Ginsue, that's what I was aiming for however my english was molded in a public school so I don't speak so good sometimes.
theGinsue
04-05-2011, 23:46
Sometimes I kan wryte purdy! Too bad I sound like a moron in person.
[Coffee]
(Public education here as well, but it's almost 30 years old and I've picked up a few things along the way. The good news is while I have a lot of typos, I usually don't incite folks like Byte to correct my grammer or spelling.)
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