Saw a Ruger Vaquero blow up yesterday..

[nogaroheli]

We were shooting on the 100 yd rifle range at Frontier Sportsman's in Falcon yesterday when we heard what sounded like a monster ricochet come right in front of us. We looked to see what it was and saw something land maybe 15 yards in front of us, the range was cold so I walked to see what it was- it was part of a revolver cylinder! When we realized what it was we hurried over to the pistol range to see if everyone was okay, expecting the worst. We found the guy who it belonged to and he was FINE! He seemed a little shaken but had no damage to himself. His Ruger wasn't so lucky. The cylinder was obviously destroyed, the top strap had a monster hump in it, but fortunately it blew up away from his body and others.

He said it had only been shot once before and these handloads were weak (or at least supposed to be). I thought Ruger revolvers were indestructible- I guess I was wrong!

So be careful reloading, or use a revolver...

[Byte Stryke]

He said it had only been shot once before and these handloads were weak

:eek:

I am going to just say that this statement raised some very large flags with me.

[BPTactical]

:eek:

I am going to just say that this statement raised some very large flags with me.

Agreed- For whatever to KB a Ruger is not a "weak load".

[nogaroheli]

:eek:

I am going to just say that this statement raised some very large flags with me.

You think? [Tooth]

The fact that he wasn't talking about how Ruger gave him a POS or raising any stink along with his demeanor makes me think he knew it could have been a double charge. He did say he would probably send it back to them- I'd like to hear how that interaction goes :)

[TFOGGER]

Agreed- For whatever to KB a Ruger is not a "weak load".
Unless it was weak enough to leave a slug in the barrel, maybe just past the forcing cone?

[DeusExMachina]

FireMoth was telling me some weak loads can be huge in pressure if it's loaded so little that all the powder lights at once.

[TFOGGER]

FireMoth was telling me some weak loads can be huge in pressure if it's loaded so little that all the powder lights at once.
W296 is noted for this. If memory serves, most of my reloading manuals recommended no less than 90% of maximum loads in .357 cases with this powder.

[FireMoth]

OK, here is a lesson on revolvers:

Small powder charges don't equal low pressure.

People will under load for revolvers, because they don't need cartridge energy to cycle the gun. Loads far 'lighter' than they would try for an automatic.

the problem is a thing we cal primer jump.

What happens is the powder in the cartridge settles to the bottom, below the flash hole for the primer. because of this, on ignition the spark strikes both the back of the charge, as normal, but also middle and front of the charge as well, simultaneously.

The result is that what is meant to be a very rapid burn, becomes detonation. And a handgun is suddenly exposed to pressures most rifles couldn't handle.

Ironically, most modern revolvers can handle pretty seriously compressed loads with far less damage. Almost all revolvers are killed by "light" loads.

So, when you see MINIMUM loads in your reloading manual, don't go below them. your safer to push over max loads then go under minimum

[ldmaster]

The Ruger Vaquero is NOT the GP100 or service/speed six or even the SP101.

The original Vaquero was built as a Colt SA clone, it was meant as a gun to duplicate the pattern of a single action revolver that qualifies to be shot in SASS. As such, even if Ruger wanted to make their vaquero beefier, they CANNOT as SASS rules would disallow the use of the gun. Add to that the "New Vaquero", produced in an effort to capture a segment of the Cowboy Action Shooters, the NV is actually smaller and opens up a couple of new categories to CAS shooters.

Ruger has a reputation for strong guns, that being said - it's a REPUTATION not fact. You've heard of more S&W revovlers blowing up vs ruger simply because there are literally millions more S&W revolvers out there.

The New Vaquero has already gotten a reputation for kaboom's. I'd guess this guy was shooting a NV.

The only other times I've ever heard someone describe a revolver handload as (really light) was because of squib loads, LOTS of things cause squib loads, and not all squib loads are equal, a squib caused by static can be from 30 to 90 percent lighter, and the amount is variable, so SOME squib loads will exit the barrel, and some will not.

The primer jump as described is inaccurate, at least it is inaccurate according to S&W and Elmer Keith, if they are to be believed. The powder doesn't detonate, ALL powder burns, the speed of the burn is dependent on the chemical characteristics and the chamber it occupies and how fast the powder can exit. What has been described as happening with an ultrafast camera and x-ray device is that the primer causes just enough pressure to cause the bullet to break the crimp (which is why wax loads and rubber bullet practice loads use primers) and start into the forcing cone, the powder (which was not in contact with the primer) then starts to burn, but the bullet itself is stuck in the forcing cone. Think about it this way...

Ever push a wheeled cart over an object? If you put the wheel up against it, it takes a lot of force to move it. If you get a running start on pushing the wheel over, it feels much easier to do. Same with a bullet that's already in the forcing cone, it's going to take a lot of pressure to move.

The powder burns, and normally pushes the bullet out of crimp and into the forcing cone, speeding the bullet up as it goes and the gas exits into the barrel and the bullet goes normally. In the case of the bullet already being lodged in the forcing cone, it was estimated with the load they used to test that it would take between 60 and 70 thousand PSI to move it into the barrel, way over the Vaquero's tolerances, even worse for a New Vaquero. The pressure builds exclusively in the cylinder and blows the cylinder open, almost alway ripping the backstrap up because the ruptured cylinder is the one right beneath it.

NOT because the powder "detonated" by being burned all at once. There's a couple of nifty books at Denver Public Library about small arms ammunition development and physics, and there are a lot of x-ray type photos of primer sparks, the longest primer spark in a pistol goes about 1/4 the length of the cartridge case. Rifle primer sparks are much longer. Wish I could buy it from them, it's a great book. The problem happens simply because the powder is MEANT to burn right as the primer spark hits the powder, and proceed forward into the powder column - the primer pressure jumping over the load and forcing the bullet out early, is the culprit. This is more famous with W296 powder (a very slow burning powder) that is meant for use in MAGNUM pistols only and ONLY if you're working with max loadings. Cutting down the powder load AND using a high-powered "magnum" primer is a recipe for disaster. One way to overcome this potential problem is to roll crimp the hell out of a lead bullet, it wont unseat so easily. I've seen the problem happen to old-timers who SWEAR that not-crimping the bullet makes them more accurate. Works fine on 45acp low power match loads (no forcing cone), but causes all kinds of problems with a cylinder/forcing cone run like a revolver.

[Irving]

That's why I'll never buy a revolver in 40 S&W. Grenades. All of them.










;)

[rondog]

Some great, eye-opening info here, thanks guys! I never would have suspected low loads to be dangerous.

[ronaldrwl]

I agree. That's an eye-opener. Now I'm not so excited about doing my own loading. There's a lot of ways to ruin your day.

[FireMoth]

The primer jump as described is inaccurate, at least it is inaccurate according to S&W and Elmer Keith, if they are to be believed. The powder doesn't detonate, ALL powder burns, the speed of the burn is dependent on the chemical characteristics and the chamber it occupies and how fast the powder can exit.


To clarify, I did use the wrong term with "detonation" which is defined as a high explosive, or a super sonic rate of burn. Explosion, which is accurate is simply too fast a rate of burn for the designed criteria.

Elmer Keith along with people at S&W designed the original .357 mag and .44 mag as compressed loads for the .38 special and .44 special respectively. Hence my claim that OVER loading is usually not the cause of fragmented cylinders. It still breaks guns, often catastrophically (hence the development of the larger cartridges), but generally doesn't turn them into claymore mines the way under loading does.

More over, i should specify that though the primer spark doesn't reach all of the powder, the exposed surface burns across much faster than a small surface packed against the flash hole will. What the spark doesn't reach, the initial burn very quickly does.

Though obstruction as you described does often increase pressure, the fragmentation here is caused by the rate of burn, which increases pressure much more than the obstruction could.

Its in fact easily noted that except for the very newest vaqueros (which go back to the colt saa style original black hawk frame) all the previous and more common vaquero models were much larger cylinders and frames than the SAA. they dint fit in SAA holsters (the new ones do) and there were loads from companies like Buffalo Bore that are high pressure, large bullet loads that fit ONLY in the Ruger new Black Hawk and Vaquero.
So they are in fact much more robust revolvers.
Most hand loaders would actually have a hard time finding the room to match Buffalo Bore's loads for the vaquero, so over loading and crimping is seldom the problem.

Once again, i am not advocating over loading. its still very dangerous.

Finally, is the idea that bullet obstructions from squib loads is the cause of this kind of fragmentation.
When an obstructed bore is encountered, the damage is typically a ruptured barrel, dislodged barrel (shearing the threads that join it to the frame) and in some cases a top strap snapped just behind the forcing cone, tilting the barrel down.
I have never seen an obstruction cause a cylinder to fragment. They do not dislodge from being struck, or they wouldn't result in that kind of pressure. And of all the many revolvers i have seen crack like that, not one had anything stuck in the barrel.

And timing problems can cause shaving, but if its out of time enough to through a round fully into the side of the forcing come, the firing pin would miss the primer.

Even dramatic head space problems tend to apply pressure fore and aft, and don't blow the tops off of cylinders.

That SPECIFIC type of failure comes from too rapid burn accomplished by too little powder to hold it to the flash hole. Worse, the most dramatic examples are usually with very small amounts of fast burning powders.

It isn't coincidence that every story i have heard or witnessed of this kind of fragmentation has been with barely audible light target hand loads that suddenly explode.

[rondog]

I agree. That's an eye-opener. Now I'm not so excited about doing my own loading. There's a lot of ways to ruin your day.

I think we'll be OK as long as we follow the established recipes.....

[SA Friday]

Light loads in big revolver cartridges... yes, mr gump you can go too light on a powder charge.

Don't sweat the reloading. Stay within the realm of the charts, continue to read and learn as you progress, and pay attention when reloading. You'll be fine.

[FireMoth]

I think we'll be OK as long as we follow the established recipes.....

Sage advice.

None of us intend to stop you hand loading, just do it responsibly. major under or over loads are foolish.
If you want to develop custom loads, do it a little at a time, as fractional increases relative to overall powder volume.

If you want to load light, and aren't sure about case volume, use slower burning powders, black powder equivalents, or some sort of wadding to keep the charge over the flash hole.

and if in doubt, run to recipe in current landing manuals

[SA Friday]

Btw. Firemoth is only half wrong about detonating the cartridge. 45 long colt was origionally desighed for black powder. Leave enough air pocket space on a black powder round and the do detonate.

Detonate=any explosive creating a shock wave of a 1000 meters per second or faster.

Deflagrate= any explosive with a shock wave slower than 1000 m/sec.

[FireMoth]

And, as it turns out, guys using tiny amounts of powders such as bulls eye definitely manage to get over 1000 ft/sec.

[rondog]

I've already had one good reloading lesson, so I've gotta post this photo again.

I was loading and showing the grandson how to do it, then I left the press all setup and went away, but I turned off the Lee powder dispenser. The grandkid came along and decided the "help me out" by making a few rounds for me. With the powder measure turned off.

Two 1911's, each got a bullet stuck and I didn't notice (never experienced that before). Next rounds fired bloated both barrels and the slide bushings jammed tight against the swelled areas and locked both pistols up tight.

Made my ass red. [Rant1]

Now, I'll either dismantle the press when I'm done, or wrap a bike lock cable around it so it can't be used if I'm leaving it setup. And I never leave the powder measure on it at all if I'm not there. Always emptied too.

Costly lesson, but could have been much worse. Very glad they were just light SWC target loads.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/gun%20damages%20and%20destruction/DSCN1784.jpg

[nogaroheli]

Wow, I hadn't heard or even thought about too little of a charge being dangerous. I'm glad I got to learn about it through someone else's lessons than my own.

Good to know...

[4gunfun]

Does that mean 10mm revolvers are bad too?
That's why I'll never buy a revolver in 40 S&W. Grenades. All of them.










;)

[SA Friday]

And, as it turns out, guys using tiny amounts of powders such as bulls eye definitely manage to get over 1000 ft/sec.

3 times faster than that. METERS per second.

[Irving]

Does that mean 10mm revolvers are bad too?

Of course not. That's God's caliber.

[FireMoth]

3 times faster than that. METERS per second.

Internal predictive text. that's what i MEANT to type. thanks for catching it.