Buying an FA gun

[2ndChildhood]

I keep thinking about getting an FA gun (thanks Hunter).
I read Karls' HowTo on Uzi-World http://www.uzi-world.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185, and this question came up;
Do you really have to pay for the thing and have it shipped to your FFL before you send in your application?
What if you get denied? Do you just have to resell it and have your FFL transfer it back out?
I asked at Jensen's and they quoted $150 for a FA gun transfer!! Is that going rate, or are they high?
Also, why are mac 10's so cheap?
2C

[HunterCO]

Yes it must be shipped to your C3 dealer so he/she can log it into inventory before they can do the paper work for you. Nobody is going to start the transfer to your dealer unless they have been paid. Yes $150 is the average rate with most C3 dealers around here.

Mac's are cheap because they are the cheapest FA guns to own and always have been. Before the 86 ban you could buy a mac for $250-350. It also depends on demand and the amount available macs are the cheapest and most abundent gun out there.

In short it is the basic laws of economics supply and demand.

If you can legally own a gun than you can legally own NFA items period they can not deny you. The biggest problem for most is getting CLEO sign off and you can get around that by going corporate.


When I bought the sear that was in the gun you shot at the north shoot I bought it from a guy in OR. I had no idea who he was or anything I sent him a check for 10K yes my balls shriveld up just thinking on how stupid that is. The NFA community is very small you screw somebody and you are banned for life. I talked to the guy on the phone several times and felt it was ok.

My advice is if you don't want to take any chances like I and many others do is to call Alan tell him what you want and he will get it. Then you have no worries.

NFA is a crazy world funny part is 99.9999999% of the time it all go's well.

[KarlPMann]

Ummmm, what he said. Karl. :cool:

[MuzzleFlash]

Try Greg at Denver Bullets. I bet he's a lot less than $150.

You can print your F4, send it off to the CLEO for signoff while waiting for the gun to come to the local SOT. You can also get your FP cards and photos done during the wait.

I've done this before with no problem. They can't be more than a year old when you send them in. If you have Adobe Acrobat (not acrobat reader) you can add your mug to the electronic F4 (as a button image) and print it.

Always print two copies for the CLEO to sign. If they're used to processing these, they should know that you need each copy signed in original ink. If they want a file copy of your tax form, they can use the photocopier. (And no, that's not illegal for them to make a copy for their records. The law only is binding on federal agencies.)

See http://www.titleii.com for the forms.

[samuraii]

I didn't ask Greg his transfer fee on FA's. However I picked up my can from him the other week and he charged me $75. If that's his Class III transfer fee for all transfers it beats the $150 everyone else is charging.

[2ndChildhood]

If I recall correctly???, Jensen's said the fee for cans was $50.
2C

[HunterCO]

The fee Alan charges IF you purchase the item from him is $0

He only charges if you buy from somebody else and use him to do the transfer.

[MPfiveengineer]

If I recall correctly???, Jensen's said the fee for cans was $50.
2C

Jensen's Safe is very full and they charge a lower amount for cans because they take up less space in their safe. If you are looking at buying a DIAS (sear) like HunterCO's I would let them know and they might drop their transfer price.

[MuzzleFlash]

Jensen charges $50 for cans you buy from them. That's ridiculous since there's plenty of margin on the cans they stock and order. I was all set to buy an Outback II and a MK9K from them until they quoted me a $50/can transfer fee on top of the full retail price. Screw that. I suspect they would charge more than $50 to transfer a can from an out of state dealer.

With NFA transfers, there is considerably more paperwork for your dealer. They have the SOT expense to amortize over their transfers. They have to store your stuff for months instead of a few days. Until the LCIFA passed recently, they had considerably more liability to deal with too. No one should expect a SOT to give away their services. However, $150 is definitely on the high side.

Greg is a great guy to work with. He's done several transfers for me. He's had his FFL/SOT since 1968 so he's been around awhile. The only down side is his premises are inside the People's Republic of Denver. I wouldn't transfer a semi "assault weapon" through him since Denver flagrantly ignores the injunction placed on them while the state preemption appeal is in progress.

[MPfiveengineer]

Jensen charges $50 for cans you buy from them. That's ridiculous since there's plenty of margin on the cans they stock and order. I was all set to buy an Outback II and a MK9K from them until they quoted me a $50/can transfer fee on top of the full retail price. Screw that. I suspect they would charge more than $50 to transfer a can from an out of state dealer.


Nope, they ordered me an SWR can from out of state and the transfer was $50.

As far as the fee goes for cans they have in stock, I think it's fair. Yes they have a profit margin on the cans they stock but I would imagine it varies quite a bit from a $299 Outback II to a $825 G5. Having a different transfer rate on different cans would be a mess; therefore I think they picked one number on the low side for transfer fees for all their cans.

[2ndChildhood]

Ok for the cleo signature,
I live in a city, am I required to get the city police cheif to sign, or can I use the county sheriff if I choose?
2C

[MPfiveengineer]

Either one is fine; I have always used the sheriff.

BTW what are you looking at getting, an M16?

[2ndChildhood]

Well at this point money-wise, nothing. :cry:

Eventually, depends on what I can afford.
I'm still not sure really, I want to go quality.
On the low dollar end I'm not sure - mac? What else?
Uzi's have a certain cachet for the midrange.
I'm not sure on the high end: DIAS/m16, or something a bit exotic, but quality.
Probably won't have the $ to go into the $20k range in this lifetime.
Suggestions are welcome for all my realistic price ranges.
2C

[MuzzleFlash]

Nope, they ordered me an SWR can from out of state and the transfer was $50. MPfiveengineer, I think you just made my point if they did the ordering. Ask what they would charge if you purchased a Blackside out-of-state on a F3 and they only performed the transfer service. In other words, you pay the out-of-state SOT (and avoid sales tax by the way) and he sends it to Jensen on a F3 to transfer to you. If its still only $50 to do the transfer then that is indeed an outstanding transfer fee for NFA.

Here's the Blackside ad:
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi?read=73630


As far as the fee goes for cans they have in stock, I think it's fair. Yes they have a profit margin on the cans they stock but I would imagine it varies quite a bit from a $299 Outback II to a $825 G5. Having a different transfer rate on different cans would be a mess; therefore I think they picked one number on the low side for transfer fees for all their cans.We'll agree to disagree here. I'm on my 7th can and my 15th NFA purchase and Jensen is the only SOT that charges over retail on cans.

Call Alan in Dumont or Greg in Denver. I know Alan will order you a Outback II at retail + sales tax + NFA tax. Greg isn't a GT stocking dealer so you'd have to ask him if he'd do so for the same deal.

The $150 transfer fee on guns is on the upper end of the scale for a Title 2 transfer (only other dealer I know of that high is Chad at Cal's and he's a royal PITA to work with). Greg at Denver Bullets has never charged me more than $75 to transfer an out-of-state Title 2 gun although the last time he complained that his costs were going up.

Gemtech takes good care of their dealers. I'm looking right now at the hot pink 2005 dealer price sheet they handed out at the SHOT show. It would be a violation of confidence to post the dealer pricing so let's just say the dealer margin on the Outback-II at retail completely swamps the $50 transfer fee. The high end cans on the sheet do not have a proportional margin compared to the Outback II. The margin on an OB-II, in dollars, is only 33% less than the margin on a can retailing for twice as much.

I don't want to rag on Jensen too hard. They carry very cool Title 1 guns and make reasonable deals on them. I've purchased several Title 1 guns from them and been treated fairly. We're lucky to have a dealer that specializes in "black guns" in northern Colorado. I just don't like their NFA fee policy and will not shop with them for NFA when they charge over retail. You don't mind paying the fees, that's fine. It's all part of the marketplace.

[MuzzleFlash]

Well at this point money-wise, nothing. :cry:

Eventually, depends on what I can afford.
I'm still not sure really, I want to go quality.
On the low dollar end I'm not sure - mac? What else?
Uzi's have a certain cachet for the midrange.
I'm not sure on the high end: DIAS/m16, or something a bit exotic, but quality.
Probably won't have the $ to go into the $20k range in this lifetime.
Suggestions are welcome for all my realistic price ranges.
2CFor the money, an Uzi SMG spec registered receiver is the way to go. Like a M10 or M11, it's pretty versatile. Most people prefer Uzis to Macs, but there are always exceptions. Slowfire kits and an explosion of aftermarket accessories for both platforms have made them more multi-dimensional.

Uzi's have aftermarket goodies like topcovers with rails, forgrips with rails, long, short, wood, laminate and plastic stocks - and of course, folders. Besides caliber conversions, there are colored grips (http://www.uzigrips.com/)

I got a chance to tour Vector Arms (http://www.vectorarms.com/) in North Salt Lake last Saturday and visit with the owner, Ralph Merrill. They really are the place to go for all things Uzi and also make reasonably good HK clones and Kalishnikov rifles. Here's a scoop: Vector is diversifying beyond guns and is about to announce a line of custom made off-road rock crawlers that are simply exceptional.

Back to Uzis. stay away from the slotted bolt conversions if you want caliber change versatility. You will be stuck with the caliber that the slotted bolt was made for (i.e. 9mm).

Besides 9mm, you can get .22 and .45ACP kits from Vector and on the net. The .22's kits always take some tweaking. There is a guy at KCR that sells .40 conversions and is working on a FA closed bolt system. Barrels, in spite of the import ban, are still dirt cheap. 3 lug MP5 style adaptors are available for people who want to move their tri-lug cans between MP5's and the Uzi. There are also dedicated Uzi cans that screw onto the barrel nut threads (Phil Dater and Kel demoed the new Mossad cans at the UziTalk shoot in SLC last weekend. All I can say is "wow!".).

There are also drop-in subcaliber barrels available for shooting the Swedish '9mm" practice ammo that used to be so cheap (around 3 cents a round). Unfortunately, that is starting to dry up as people have hoarded it or tossed the ammo and sold the metal clips to people with the C3 rapid loaders.

Look out for hot deals on Uzis that aren't what they seem. A FA Vector Uzi gun can still be had for around $6K. Slotted bolt guns fetch about $1K less. There is a raging controversy about the legality of registered receiver, SMG spec guns that were originally registered with a slotted bolt and have subsequently have the bolt destroyed and the blocking bar removed. There are FTB opinions issued by the ATF that these are effectively illegal. I'd stay really clear of any non-Vector SMG spec gun unless I could verify with the manufacturer in writing that the gun was registered before May 19, 1986 without the blocking bar.

Hope this helps.

[2ndChildhood]

A whole bunch of good Uzi stuff...
Hope this helps.
Thanks Flash, it definitely helps cause I have no experience or knowledge in this area.
Now let's see Karl chime in - I don't think he can resist talking about Uzi's.
2C

[MPfiveengineer]

We'll agree to disagree here. I'm on my 7th can and my 15th NFA purchase and Jensen is the only SOT that charges over retail on cans.

Please give an example of this. Are you including the $50 transfer fee to be over retail?

I am only on my 2nd can and my 3rd NFA purchase so you definitely have more experience than me. I am also not sure what Jensen's would have charged me if I had bought the can directly from SWR's distributor. I know they did charge me exactly what Henry from www.Title2.com (SWR's distributor) charges for the same can, unfortunately SWR does not publish their retail prices for a reference.

The only other class 3 dealer I have dealt with was Oliver from Iron Ridge Guns in Longmont. He did charge me $150 to transfer a can I bought from out of state. I thought this seemed kind of high, but I only knew of him and Cal's when I did my transfer.

Anyway, it seems like you have a lot more experience in this area so I will tip my hat and concede to you. 2ndChildhood I would listen to MuzzleFlash if I were you.

BTW that is a good price on the Blackside, have you heard if it really does cycle well without a booster?

[MuzzleFlash]

MPfiveengineer

Yes I'm including the fee in the "over retail" statement. I don't know how much experience I have, I'm just a cheap bastard. :)

The Blackside is definitely quiet. It was demoed at the Uzitalk.com shoot in SLC along with several other suppressors. They had it on an H&K pistol. I've heard .45 cans before and have always found them lacking - even wet. This one was noticably better. I didn't enquire as to what artificial environment they were using. There wasn't any smoke. Perhaps it was that CCF stuff that everyone raves about.

[MPfiveengineer]

The ones I have seen came shipped with some kind of blue grease. However I HERD that it will not cycle the action on a USP Tactical.

The best artificial environment I have used is the cheap $5 a quart wire pulling gel from Home Depot. I HERD the CCF stuff is a waste of $

[KarlPMann]

UZI? Did I hear "UZI"? :roll: Ummm, whatcha wanna know? :twisted: Karl residentexpertontheworldsfinestfirearm Mann.