Impromptu Ranges and safety during a shoot

[Ice Pirate]

I'm rather new to this site, but not to shooting. I've been an Air Force CATM, (Combat Arms Training and Maintenance) Instructor for 27 years and run firing both on formal ranges as well as informal and impromptu ranges. By impromptu, I mean scrapping a line in the dirt and calling it the firing line. In all of those years, no one on my line has ever been shot. I will admit, there have been a fare share of close calls, I've had shooters get cut, scuffed, and bent, but never shot. So I know that things can get a little hairy at times when you've got a couple of dozen shooters, all wanting to shoot at the same time, and everyone has their own game plan. Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it.

MY POINT:
I saw another post here with a link to a raft of pics of a recent club shoot. Me being me, I checked the pics out and was a little disharted at what I saw. An impromptu range with people shooting from a raft of different positions and a raft of different weapons. No worries there.

What DID bother me, was that in several of the pics, there were people forward of the line of tables firing, while others were several feet behind the tables firing. The pics also showed muzzles pointed in every direction imaginable. Seeing the pics, I have to thank God that nobody was shot.

I don't mean to be a dick here, but the weapons we carry, shoot and yes I'll admit it, LOVE, are just that, WEAPONS. They are tools designed to inflict injury and damage on the human body, as well as anything else they engage.

I love to shoot and have fun with good friends, but safety with shooting has got to be paramount. Please tell me that not all of your shoots are run so poorly! I'm not trying to put any one down here, but I think if I'd have walked up to that range and saw what the picks showed me was going on, I'd have been real vocal real fast, and if I didn't see things change fast, I'd have left.

Well I wasn't at that shoot, but I am here, and I am being vocal. If you think I'm wrong here, or just a grumpy old man who's trying to ruin your fun, just say so. I'll leave. I don't like to be around if I have no control and others are being unsafe. If, however, you agree that even fun shoots need a higher level of safety, then speak up. Thats what forums like this are for.

It is possible to have fun and safety together.

[Wallary]

Howdy Ice Pirate. I took those pics of the south shoot and at the time I really didn't see a problem with the line. In most of the shots I was a few feet behind and to the side of the shooters This may of changed the angle of the line in the camara, also we were set up on a slope again this may have something to do with the way the angle appears to the camara . But I did view some of the pics again and I see your point. One guy was way over the line in almost all the photos, standing in front of the tables. I'm very supprised nobody said anything to him. We were not in perfect alinment, and the group photo shows a few un-maned weapons pointing towards the shooters. I can't say they were unloaded but I wasn't threaten by them sitting on the table. All I can tell you is thanks for pointing out some basic safety guide lines, and I'm sure SAFETY will come first at the next shoot. Your welcome to come and shoot at the next one on 06/17/06 at the North shoot area near Lyons. We would appreciate all the safety advice we can get. Thank you Ice Pirate and I hope you can help our club be the best it can be. I think this should shine some light on the safety issues we need to address. Thanks again, Larry [usa]

[2ndChildhood]

Ice Pirate,
I'm assuming you are referring to the recent south shoot pictures. I was not at the shoot, nor am I a real experienced shooter. For those reasons and because the camera angles are in some cases deceptive, I won't comment on the pictures. What I can say is that if someone shows up at a shoot making safety suggestions I will certainly pay full attention to that and try to learn the safest way to enjoy our get togethers.
Thanks for your comments and concern.
2C

[HunterCO]

I am very anal about safety and I never seen anybody point weapons in an unsafe manner. I can assure you I would have said something and that is putting it lightly. All weapons that were on the tables were cleared slide locked back, bolt locked back or in the case of a revolver the cylinder open.

The guy that came with gearhead got a little far foreward but at the angles we where shooting at I didn't say anything. You are being fooled by the camer angles trust me it was not as it appeared.

The one thing I also noticed which I might add is my biggest pet peeve is everybody I observed kept their damn finger off the trigger untill they were ready to shoot.

Icepirate I agree with you 100% safety is #1 period with any shooting activity but I think you are being fooled by the camera angles.

[GearHead]

I’m new at shooting and I would WELCOME ANY tips on safety, or shooting in general. We were on the end and in an awkward spot. My cuz did get a little forward and we were asked politely to move back. THANK YOU.. I’m learning, please give me constructive feedback.

This shoot, I learned that even though I drove 2 hours and forgot my target stand, it is NOT acceptable to place targets on trees. Even if they are burnt and dead.

I learned that even though I brought a garbage can and collected more than I brought in, I shouldn’t leave targets for the “next guy”.

I learned that this really is a great group to go shooting with and that they would welcome you and provide any support that you needed.

Ice, I would welcome you and your experience any time! You are exactly the type of person that I would like to learn from.

I took my first shot from an AR just about 6 months ago, and everything I learned was from this group. Thank you again!

[PsychoI3oy]

I had a similar experience as GearHead last summer when I was a very new shooter.

Karl yelled at me for having the barrel of my 10/22 more than 45 degrees off perpindicular to the firing line, and I'm glad he did because I wasn't paying attention (obviously not a good thing).

I can't think of anything other than that specifically, but overall everyone is pretty safety concious and the people not shooting tend to look out for the ones that are.

+1 on cameras making perspective all wonky for who's ahead/behind an imaginary line in space when you have little reference for how tall people are or how long their firearms are. That's not to say that people don't make mistakes, but every shoot I've been to has been really good about maintaining a proper firing line.

[bbadmin]

****Official Post****



Ice Pirate brings up a good point. And although I was not there I too have always had concerns about safety and decorum at a club shoot. These shoots are informal, but they must be safe.

There is no other option.

So, here is what I suggest we do.

I suggest that at every club shoot, and or any other shoot we show up at, we designate a range safety officer. That person would be in charge of range safety at all times. Which means, when they are the RSO they are not shooting they are watching. This position can be traded off, but one RSO should be "on duty" at all times.

We select someone to be a designated driver so we get home safely, we should be no less diligent in our approach to range safety. One accident would be one to many, and could result in lots of legal entanglements, not to mention potential injury.

As some of you know, I am an NRA Instructor, and I am now an NRA Training Counselor. The TC part means I can train instructors and range safety officers. As a result here's what I suggest.

I will offer to put on an official NRA Range Safety Officer course this summer. I could put on several. I will offer it to all members here for little cost. The cost will cover materials and such, but I won't make a profit on it. Right now I'm guessing the cost would be about $25 per person, plus your fee to the NRA if you want to get certified by them. (When I took mine I was charged $85.

Hopefully we'll get enough people trained that we can have two or three at every shoot. That way the RSO can trade off and shoot his or her own guns as well.

All I need for an RSO class is students and a classroom. The official course outline shows it takes nine hours. We could get this done in one day, or spread it out over two days.

I'm also open to any other suggestions, but this seems like a good alternative.

Input?





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[BadShot]

Considering how large the average shoot is starting to get, it is time to start formalizing the range rules and have a more structured brief before we start. I have to admit to being a bit concerned and unsure about the South shoot that I attended. My biggest issue was who was in charge; there wasn't a clear designation at first... it was Marlin for the most part, everyone knows him and let him be in charge of calling cease fires etc... but the range boundaries were not clearly identified to at least myself and I just applied common sense.

So yeah, sign me up for the RSO class (so long as it isn't on a Kid Weekend) and I'd be happy to help in that role.

Ice Pirate, I know I appreciate your choosing to speak up. Please do come to a shoot. I get the feeling you'll be one hell of an asset.

[HunterCO]

I would be more than happy to take a RSO class and get certified. If you put on a class let me know and I will make sure to be there.

I would prefer to do it all in one day since I am going to assume you would hold the class in the springs.

[bbadmin]

Actually I thought about doing a North class and a South class.

We'll work on a set of range safety rules and get them posted / distributed.

[2ndChildhood]

Strong interest here for the RSO class.
I'll be there barring only the most dire of other priorities.
2C

[Ice Pirate]

Safety has always been a huge concern for me because I've had some close calls before. I've been on a range firing when there were people down range that weren't supposded to have been there. I learned first hand, how quickly things can go wrong and have been extremely lucky. I just hope and pray that none of you will ever have to learn these lessons first hand.

There may have been some quirks with camera angles but the main pic that really started this was the one of a woman behind the tables shooting a revolver while another guy was forward of the table with a rifle. In my time on AF Ranges I've seen even experienced shooters, with wheel guns, put rounds in the dirt not 3' in front of them. That's what really kind of touched me off.

As for the group pic. I don't see anything wrong there. Even if one or more of the guns hadn't been fully cleared, if there was no one touching them while the pic was set up and taken, then, no worries. Been in that situation my self and more than once.

However, it really does my heart good to read the responces on this topic. I'm ecstatic to see that you take safety as seriously as I do.

BBadmin,
Stunning idea! Absolutly great! The main thing for any range, is to have someone to insure the safety of all shooters. Having multiple RSO's is even better. I too would love to attend an RSO class if possible. You'er never too old or experienced to learn something new.

You might also set some RSO to Shooter ratios. On a formal range we always had to maintain 1 primary instructor, plus 1 RSO for every 7 shooters. That may be a bit much for an impromtu shoot like yours. You may think about just maintaining one at each end if you have like 20 or more shooters. Some thing like that.

I'm also grateful that, at least as far as those who've responded anyway, no one took my remarks negitively. To be honest, I've only fired on civilian ranges a few times, and wasn't really impressed with some of them. I've see some where the safety is pushed so hard, it takes all the fun out of shooting, like the range at Cherry Creek State Park. I've also seen some, that will remain nameless, where your safety is left to pure luck. I firmly believe that there can be a middle ground where we can ensure the safety of ourselves and our friends, without taking the fun out of shooting. The RSO idea is a great start!

[bbadmin]

Safety and safety issues are never a negative topic.

Thank you for bringing it up. It is already under hot discussion in the mod's only forum.



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[newracer]

I would also be interested in becomming a RSO.

[samuraii]

I am also interested in the RSO training. It's something I have been meaning to do anyway to help out at AGC. It's nice to help out but even better to be able work off some of the anual dues. :mrgreen:

[bbadmin]

Give me a couple of days, and I'll start throwing out tentative dates.

[GearHead]

Since I'm new to the shooting world, I would definitely benefit from this class. I may not take the role of RSO at a shoot, but I will know what they expect of me..

[BadShot]

I actually like the idea of RSO duty offsetting club dues... or even better, being part of club membership or what not.

To RSO you have to be willing to step up to someone and tell them to stop what they are doing. I seriously doubt we would have anyone pop a quark or anything, but you need to be willing to make those types of calls and do them without doubt.

I'm really glad this has been brought up as well... Thanks Ice Pirate, good constructive observation and even more thanks to BB for taking it to the next level.

[Gman]

The pictures aren't a very good indicator since they're 2 dimensional and lack relation to distance. I think I saw the picture being referred to and the individual kneeling with the AK is over 3 tables to the side of the revolver shooter.

I've also been puzzled by identifying who was in charge. I would usually check with everyone on the line before going downrange, but you can't keep your eye on everyone while you're setting up targets.

I also admit that everyone does a pretty good job with muzzle control and keeping their firearms cleared when not in use.

Put me down for the RSO class, too. One day would be easier than 2.

...and I'm not worried about you making a "profit" by doing the class. Since you run this website out of your own pocket, we know where any profits are going. [poke]

[bbadmin]

When I do RSO duties I wear an orange vest. Most of you hunters already have one. That way its easy to see who's in charge.

[Artyboy]

I'm down for the RSO class. That sounds like it could be helpful. I was the guy "in front" of the firing line btw. Basically I kept hitting the two guys next to me in the face with my brass so I stepped up. Every time I stepped up to shoot they stopped. The guy on the other side of me was even with me on the line so I wasn't up that far. The camera angle was just bad. The guys on the table to the left of me were at least twenty feet away. The girl with the revolver was a good fifteen feet away. It was a lot safer than it looked. I was shooting from that same spot all day and so were the people that were trying out my AK. Noone said a word because it was nowhere near as bad as it looks in the picture.

[robsterclaw]

I've been to 2 shoots so far, and I was impressed by the way everyone acted in a safe manner. I was raised in Iowa and for the most part we would all stand behind a fence and shoot at another fence with bottles and such on them. I shot at the indoor shooting range they had on Astrozon and Chelton when it was there, so these were the first times I've shot with an impromtu sorta group. I went to one years ago and as soon as I pulled up and saw people drinking beer, I left.

Long windedly, I mean to say many people have said at the 2 I went to, step back a bit, make sure fingers aren't on triggers, don't cock the gun until at the line.

And Karl told me to make sure as I was taking hold of his gun to keep it pointed at the ground. I was semi careless while taking it figuring as long as my finger was not on the trigger it would be ok. It did go off, and went over the berm. Karl said see, that's what I'm saying! I didn't take offence at all. He wasn't being a bossy jerk, he was enforcing safety measures. I didn't say I've been shooting for years, don't tell me what to do. I haven't shot rifles much. I only took a handgun safety coarse, never a hunters safety or rifle coarse. The guys at these shoots are willing to teach, and the others are willing to learn. I think it's a good thing you perceived a safety issue and brought it up.

[roman gnome]

I have only been to a handful of South shoots so far, so I can't add much.But I will say Doug and Karl run great shoots and I will add Ryan and Tim to the mix also. My Wife and I have always felt very comfortable and have never had any safety concerns.And would hope other shooters feel the same around us.We try very hard cause you just can't be too safe.

The training sounds great, would a person have to be recertified yearly or would one be good to go?

[bbadmin]

You don't have to "recertify" in that once you have the class you're done. But you do have to "renew" which of course means, like all things NRA you send them a check once a year. I can't remember what that is, but its not bad. You do not have to be an NRA member to be an RSO. And, with the NRA RSO certification, you could end up getting a job someplace as it is the industry standard for commercial range officers.

I'll post more details when I get caught up.

[KarlPMann]

I'm in. Oh, and to clarify things since there seems to be an issue here. Doug aka Marlin is in charge of all north shoots and I'm in charge of south (hmmm, gotta add 7idl now too). That's kinda how we've been doing it. I didn't think the vest was necessary, I mean, are you BLIND? How can you miss me? [roll] But seriously, maybe we can get a vest. That way we can pass it around to the current RSO as we rotate. Karl.

[newracer]

I have one neon orange and one neon yellow vests that I will donate to the cause.

[KarlPMann]

Ummmm, will they fit ALL sizes? :roll: Karl bigdude Mann.

[HunterCO]

Ummmm, will they fit ALL sizes? :roll: Karl bigdude Mann.

Keep packing down those cheese brats and nothing will fit you. :mrgreen:

[roll]

[2ndChildhood]

Karl, how old is that pic in your avatar?
You look kind of skinny in that one.
2C

[Marlin]

Taken a long time ago, in a galaxie, far, far away.









[roll]

[The1andOnlyKC]

I wonder if they had calendars back then or were they still using the stones and the shadows from the sun?

[7idl]

I wonder if they had calendars back then or were they still using the stones and the shadows from the sun?

yet another question that only Karl can answer (well, him or a devout historian with too much free time) :P

[newracer]

Ummmm, will they fit ALL sizes? :roll: Karl bigdude Mann.The tag says
One size fits most :mrgreen:

[KarlPMann]

Hmmm, pick on Karl day I see. :cry:

The pic is only about 3 years old actually. People that met me when I first joined here may remember me being somewhat closer to that. I was 167 pounds at 6'2". :cool: Karl.

[2ndChildhood]

What's up with the car Karl?

I'd like to see you (and Suzi :twisted: )make it north sometime.

Seriously, if it's anything we can help with long distance - give us a try.

2C

[MPfiveengineer]

Sorry guys I just read this post. Artyboy, you were in front of the line. I realize that you were trying not to spray my brand new AR with your brass but I think we do need an established line that people DO NOT CROSS. Eric and I were not going to shoot with you standing up there. Eric did the right thing and emptied his gun and laid it down on the table, which was a little cramped with our stuff and yours Artyboy. Maybe you need your own table.

BTW that is me in the pic with my gun pointed up in the air which I realize is a no-no. I was taught to do that by my dad when I was a kid and its a hard habit to break. What would be the most appropriate way to hold a firearm when walking behind the line?

I can also see I really need to work on my posture and loose some weight, i'm doing the BoulderBoulder tommorow. :roll:



http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/4756/line9bx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[KarlPMann]

What's up with the car Karl?

I'd like to see you (and Suzi :twisted: )make it north sometime.

Seriously, if it's anything we can help with long distance - give us a try.

2C


Nope, major transmission repairs needed. It should be done soon though. Karl.

[BadShot]

hmmm can you say.. ride with someone? Or is there not anyone crazy enough to be in a car with Karl for that long?

[Delphi]

If you offered a south class i would be interested, also would be interested in becoming an instructor... i'll pm you

[bbadmin]

Guys.

I'm going to offer the RSO class to the North end and to the South end. It looks like the initial offering will be North. I'll post the dates shortly. After that we'll do another one South. At this pooint we'll probably do the North class in July and the South class in August.

Over in the top secret moderator forum we have a discussion going on about setting a standard set of range safety rules. Look for that to be posted shortly. This will cover basic range safety and personal conduct while at a club shooting event.

If you have any input for range rules let us know. I'll start a seperate thread someplace to determine participation in any RSO classes.

Thanks.



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[The1andOnlyKC]

I have been working on a list of rules since the last post was deleted if there is anything you want in there let me know.