So I am looking for something

[Byte Stryke]

I need a fun shooting sport that isn't so fucking micromanaged that I need a team of Lawyers, a Laser level and a chronograph shoved up my ass to participate in.

I am not out to prove who is better than what and tear each other down on silly shit like "Oh, You dont have this belt.", "Your belt is too wide." or "I Don't think your firearm is on the approved firearms list."

I want to find a nice FRIENDLY sport where I can go out and shoot in something other than a booth at a single target without some wannabe lawyer up my ass measuring something to get me disqualified for some silly stipulation so he can beat me and feel better about himself.

I go out there and shoot against myself. Because that's who I want to improve.


If anyone knows such an event/sport, please let me know.

Because it sure as fuck isn't USPSA/IPSC.


5.2 Holsters and Other Competitor Equipment
5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety
area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range
Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case,
gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see
Rule 10.5.1).
5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty
magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone
found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range
Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective
action shall be made.
5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level.
The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the
waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops.
5.2.3.1 Female competitors may be permitted (if so authorized in
Appendix D) to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip
level, however, the top of the belt must not be positioned below
the furthest lateral point of the top of the femur (tuberosity
major).
5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise
in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed
loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the
competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless
specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may
also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel
pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that thelocation of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of
Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).
5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s
handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the
measurement shall be taken in the following manner:
— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt
— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the
pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any
reloading device.
5.2.5.1 These measurements may be taken with the equipment as worn
or removed (see App. E2).
5.2.5.2 Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will be required to
immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the
requirements of the relevant Division. The Range Master may
make allowances for variations in these requirements due to
anatomical considerations. Some competitors may not be able to
fully comply.
5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required
by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment
must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match.
If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it
must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby”
command.
5.2.6 USPSA Handgun matches will not require the use of a particular type
or brand of holster. However, the Range Master may deem that a competitor’s
holster is unsafe and order that it be improved to his satisfaction,
failing which it must be withdrawn from the match. Divisions may
restrict a specific type of holster.
5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing:
5.2.7.1 A shoulder holster or “tie-down” rig (visible or otherwise),
except as specified in Rule 5.2.8,
5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top
of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated
in Rule 5.2.8.
5.2.7.3 A holster with the muzzle of the handgun pointing further than
3 feet from the competitor’s feet while standing relaxed,
5.2.7.4 A holster which does not completely prevent access to, or activation
of, the trigger of the handgun while holstered.
5.2.8 Competitors deemed by the Match Director to be full-time law enforcement
officers with arrest powers or military personnel on current active
duty orders, may be entitled to use their duty holsters or similar holster and related equipment when such equipment does not strictly satisfy
the equipment or other requirements of the declared Division. The
Range Master will remain the final authority in respect of the safety
and suitability of using such equipment at USPSA matches. The use of
such equipment, except as otherwise permitted in the rules, is restricted
to Level I matches only.
5.2.9 Competitors deemed by the Range Master to be significantly disabled
may be given special dispensation in relation to the type and/or placement
of their holster and related equipment, and the Range Master will
remain the final authority in respect of the safety and suitability of
using such equipment at USPSA matches.


So, in Short RO Didn't like my Duty Belt because it wasn't a cool two piece Velcro, So I am DQ'd at first stage and out my $20, and the hour of setup time I volunteered.

http://www.freshclubbing.net/ipb/style_emoticons/default/fuckyou.gif

[henpecked]

find you some Praire dogs.........

[C Ward]

Got no use for USPSA myself but this was probably an over zealous RO as there is a section of the rules addressing LEO's and Military running duty gear .

I think this is a byproduct of their huge rule book that regulates way to much and losing sight of the fact that bringing more people to the shooting sports really is the goal IMO .

The local " outlaw " match's such as Weld Co 3 gun and Pueblo Tactical rifle have rule sets that will fit on the front and back of a single page and a more common sense approach . There may and probably are other match's that function this way but these are the ones that I have shot .

What was the reason given for DQ'ing Your equipment if You don't mind ? Pretty much at the match's I talked about unless your gear poses a saftey hazard its ok .

[rtr]

Where/when was the match you were DQed from?


RO Didn't like my Duty Belt because it wasn't a cool two piece Velcro

Can you describe or post a pic if your rig? Did the RO say what about your rig was the basis for a DQ?

[DeusExMachina]

IDPA?

I'm gonna give it a try. They also seem to have an "Outlaw" class so you can compete however you like.

[Hoser]

So, in Short RO Didn't like my Duty Belt because it wasn't a cool two piece Velcro, So I am DQ'd at first stage and out my $20, and the hour of setup time I volunteered.

I looked at the results and only saw one DQ, and it was not you. He might have been saying one thing and you were hearing another.

Duty belts are allowed and I know many LE/MIL that use them at matches.

All the different games have rules and rulebooks.

I have yet to see someone get a chronograph shoved up their ass at a local match. In fact, in over 15 years of playing the different games, I have seen exactly one chronograph set up to check ammo at a local match.

There are some rough around the edges Range Officers out there. Cant fix that. There are pricks everywhere.

Did you talk to Matt (the Match Director) or RW before you left?

[CHA-LEE]

Byte> I am sorry that you didn't have a good time shooting USPSA. Can you give us more details on how you got DQed? When, where and How would be a good start.

There are rules in any structured competition. We all need to adhere to the rules that apply to the gun division we are shooting. If you don't care about how you finish and just want to go out and have fun sign up for Limited or Open division. These divisions have the least restrictive gun and gear rules.

Production and Single Stack Divisions have the most gun and gear restrictions. So if you were shooting one of those divisions and your gun or gear did not adhere to the rules then RO's will question your setup. Either way you shouldn’t have been DQed for having gun or gear infractions. That would have just bumped you into Open division.

Let us know the exact details about your DQ so we can give better advise.

[SAnd]

I have heard the pin shooters rave about how fun that is. I've never tried it myself. My understanding it's fairly informal.

The Cherry Creek Gun Club has pin shoots every Tuesday evening that are open to the public (I think).
http://www.cherrycreekgunclub.org/site4.0/

Have Fun

[Byte Stryke]

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Uncle+Mikes+Duty+belt&hl=en&prmd=ivns&biw=1920&bih=924&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=8229359750323900773&sa=X&ei=sT6-Ta7fI4SosAPRtZHQBQ&ved=0CHEQ8wIwAA#



I Cannot let you continue shooting with that Belt, it must go through the Belt loops like these.

[DeusExMachina]

I have heard the pin shooters rave about how fun that is. I've never tried it myself. My understanding it's fairly informal.

The Cherry Creek Gun Club has pin shoots every Tuesday evening that are open to the public (I think).
http://www.cherrycreekgunclub.org/site4.0/

Have Fun

I live maybe 5 minutes away...I gotta go.

[Byte Stryke]

Oh and the Chrono remark was in reference to the fact that my UMC Bulk pack ammo is :"too low powered"...

Seems to make holes in paper just fine.

[Hoser]

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Uncle+Mikes+Duty+belt&hl=en&prmd=ivns&biw=1920&bih=924&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=8229359750323900773&sa=X&ei=sT6-Ta7fI4SosAPRtZHQBQ&ved=0CHEQ8wIwAA#

So did the above belt or an underbelt go through any belt loops or was it attached to a belt with keepers?

[DeusExMachina]

So Were you actually DQ'd?

[CHA-LEE]

Byte Stryke> USPSA does have a rule (5.2.3) which requires that the gun belt must be secured to the waist by at least 3 belt loops. This is a safety rule as we don't want competitors guns loosely secured by a belt that is not directly attached to your pants.

Was this belt too wide to fit through your pant belt loops?

Either way you shouldn't have been DQed for this equipment setup violation. You should have been given the option to fix your belt situation then continue to shoot the match.

[Byte Stryke]

So did the above belt or an underbelt go through any belt loops or was it attached to a belt with keepers?
No Keepers, the belt will not attach to my CCW belt as it wont sit on top of it


So Were you actually DQ'd?
I was told not to continue until I got a new belt


Byte Stryke> USPSA does have a rule (5.2.3) which requires that the gun belt must be secured to the waist by at least 3 belt loops. This is a safety rule as we don't want competitors guns loosely secured by a belt that is not directly attached to your pants.

Was this belt too wide to fit through your pant belt loops?
YES
Made of a double layer of tough 2 in. nylon web.

Either way you shouldn't have been DQed for this equipment setup violation. You should have been given the option to fix your belt situation then continue to shoot the match.

Yeah, because I have an extra gun belt, right next to the Chronograph and the team of Lawyers. Short answer, I could not have "Fixed it" except to buy a new one.

funny thing is that I went through a safety class as well as a match in weld county, not to mention walked around the line a few hours beforehand with no one mentioning it to me.
It is my opinion the RO just suffers from wannabeeitis.
I am just glad I hadn't joined yet. I as I understand you can only shoot 2 without being a member. (I had actually been saving the $ for that)



I will just come back when I can afford a fancy gear and the special ammo

Oh Wait, Spring is here, might just go Golfing instead.

Best wishes

[Hoser]

Sounds like you ran into a Range Officer that knew the rulebook and realized you were not in compliance with the rules. Sucks I know, but not liking the rules does not mean you dont have to follow them.

You do not have to join anything or any club to shoot IPSC/USPSA matches.

Please keep in mind you were not DQ'ed.

I am sorry you left mad and chose this way to vent your anger towards the sport/organization/range officer and fellow shooters.

[DeusExMachina]

Sounds like a safety issue.

[CHA-LEE]

Byte Stryke> I am sorry that happened to you but the rules are the rules. In the end its your responsibility to know and adhere to the rules. Not ignore the rules and wait for others to point out that you are not adhering to the rules and then get angry about it. Is it really that hard to ask to download the Rule book from USPSA and spend a little bit of time to read and understand it? Knowing the rules actually makes you a better competitor so why wouldn't you read and know the rules?

If your holster and mag pouches fit on the 2 inch wide belt that you were using I am sure that they would have also worked on any regular leather belt that is used to hold up pants. Everyone is usually very accommodating at the matches and all you had to do is ask for some help. The vast majority of shooters take off their normal leather pants belt before putting on their competition belt to shoot the match. So I guarantee that there would have been no issue with rounding up a normal leather belt that you could have borrowed so you could finish the match. All you have to do is ask for help and people will usually fall all over each other to pitch in and help.

I don't know why you keep bringing up the "Chronograph" thing. As stated before we NEVER chrono at local matches and declaring major or minor PF is totally up to the honor of the shooter when they sign up. Sure some times people rib one another about shooting weaker loads than they should be but 99.9% of the time it is out of jest and not a real accusation. I have NEVER seen someone call another shooter out stating that they were not shooting their declared power factor and actually seriously mean it. Maybe someone was just poking a little fun about how soft your rounds shoot and you blew it out of proportion?

You were not DQed from the match. Only asked to get your gun belt in compliance to the rules before continuing to shoot. You could have borrowed a normal pants belt from 60+ other shooters that attended the same match, but you instead CHOSE to leave and not ask for assistance. You could have even talked to the Match Director about it to see if you could get a grace for this match to use your illegal gun belt. We are very flexible with new shooters and I am sure we would have been able to find a solution for you.

If you truly feel like you were taken advantage of at this match I am totally willing to refund your match fee. PM me your contact infomration and I will get a refund to you.

[SA Friday]

Well, the way I see it you deserve another shot at it. I don't think getting that done from a club perspective is an issue. Charlie, hoser, and myself can chip in on that side. It can get handled to include the match fee.

The gear thing comes in two animals, safety concerns and equal competition concerns. As a newbie, the competition concern isn't relevent. Safety is though. You want to give it another try, Ill either loan u the gear or adjust or modify a combo of yours and mine to make it safe.

As a new shooter, you should have been squaded with an experienced shooter to advocate in a crappy situation like this. That can be covered too. Nobody should have to go it on their own in the beginning.

It sounds to me like you got hung out to dry and instead of getting assistance, you got squat. This turned into anger and you walked. Unfortunately, it happens occasionally. I know the clubs all try to avoid this situation but it stil occasionally happens. Sorry it happened to you. Now you have a choice. We can make it right or not.

The ammo thing is just bs. I shot umc for over a year. If its a 5 inch barrewl, you're gtg.

[ldmaster]

Since USPSA was set up specifically because OTHER shooting sports were too "equipment oriented"...

Chrono? Because some guys would load 45acp at 600fps - everybody KNEW that's what folks were doing, but somebody "had to make a rule"

Rule example...

At Cherry Creek Shooting Club the one on Clinton...

A few years back the "old codger" patrol decided that 50bmg should no longer be shot in the rifle tube (1ooyd, buried underground) among the reasons cited AT THE TIME were (I'm paraphrasing, but I'll use quotes anyway) "The 50bmg is so powerful, that the shockwave of the bullet's passage was warping the tube walls. According to the board member who was proposing this, they used a "ballistics engineer" to make this assessment. They found that the tube was now more squat - that is that the formerly perfecdt roundness of the tube had changed, it was now wider than it was taller.

This, of course, was because of the massive shockwave of a bullet's passage, NOT the multi-ton overburden poured on top of the corrugated steel tube.

I remember opening my mouth in shock, as the board voted to ban 50bmg. Since then they've mustered all kinds of reasons other than the one they stated to ban 50bmg - but if there had been a recorder there...

Since then they started putting cameras in the facility to "ensure people complied with the rules" shortly thereafter they voted more money to put the cameras on a live feed, so that board members could watch shooters while sitting at home. This was, ostensibly, to reduce or limit damage to the facility.

Then, a couple of years back, another board member said that they should run background checks on all new potential members. You know, we might be giving access to a CRIMINAL, etc...

Sure, sounds "reasonable" right? (God I hope some of you are disagreeing with me) to "insure" something. If this is the reason, then they need to run background checks on ALL members upon renewal - at any point any of us might be charged with a felony - and it's it's reasonable for new members, it should be reasonable for ALL members - else it's simply another rule intended to make board members feel like they're "doing something about the problem" (that they invented). Oh, they "ran it by a lawyer" who, of course, said they should do so to "limit their liability".

What utter C**P! It's "old man" syndrome at it's worse, thus

"everything not UNDER control, MUST BE OUT OF CONTROL"

You don't have to be old to have this syndrome either.

I'm not a member there anymore, ten years was all I could take - and I never violated a single rule.

I feel ya on the USPSA thing - everything starts with liberty in mind, then ends up like our own government, rules and laws growing at a rate where a normal citizen if tasked with it as a 40hk wk job, could not read all the new regulations and laws created in a single year.

[Hoser]

Since USPSA was set up specifically because OTHER shooting sports were too "equipment oriented"...

No. IDPA was started because USPSA had pistols with scopes and comps. I hate to see bad info out there.

USPSA is the US version of IPSC. You would be very hard pressed to find a true IPSC match in the US.

A thick rulebook that addresses just about everything in black and white is a good thing. There is almost no such thing as a judgement call. Either it is legal or it isnt. Not legal one day and illegal the next.

[SA Friday]

What Id? Could your post be any more from the subject at hand, completely not helpful, and quite frankly just plain wrong about the extremely small amount you actually discussed uspsa?

Byte got a raw deal IMO. Don't think that can be denied nor overlooked. I know charlie, and myself and hoser (and more than a few others on this site) probably want the opportunity to make it right.

What was the point of your post again? (Rhetorical, please.)[/I]

[jmg8550]

I go to the Defensive Pistol at Northern Colorado Rod and Gun Club up in Owl Canyon. Probably a bit of a drive from your location. Very laid back and fun. I run what I have with no problems.

Here is a link:

http://www.ncrgc.org/defensive_pistol.html

Maybe I'll see you there. Or PM me and we can carpool from Windsor or Loveland if you want to give it a try. Entry fee is $10 and bring around 200 rounds. And use whatever ammo you like as long as it isn't .22.

[eerw]

Byte Stryke
if you need a belt, I have a few extra. let me know what size and I'll if I have one that will fit if you want it. or I probably can find one for low cost.

UMC ammo should be fine for USPSA production division if that was what you were shooting.

[Byte Stryke]

you all are right

it was my fault

it will not happen again



for the record:

The chronograph issue was brought up as one guy mentioned my ammo was underpowered

Im not mad at anyone, I am upset that the rules were arbitrarily enforced Killing my play money for the month.

I Get to shoot once a month and getting jacked out of it for a ruling like that upset me.

but I Concede, it was my fault.

and again, best wishes.

[eerw]

you all are right



for the record:

The chronograph issue was brought up as one guy mentioned my ammo was underpowered



That person would be WRONG, there isn't any ammo out there that would fall of the power factor scale and not allow you to shoot!.
sorry to hear, hate to see anyone leave and not have fun.

[Hoser]

you all are right

it was my fault

it will not happen again

If you run into that Range Officer again, you might want to pull him aside and apologize for airing your dirty laundry here like you did. After all, he let you shoot then stage *and* then he mentioned to you that you needed to fix your belt. I am 99% positive he reads this forum.

Remember, if you have a problem at a match contact the Match Director. Thats what they/we are there for.

[275RLTW]

Byte,

I'm no GM or out at every shoot but I know about having limited time to go have fun and wanting to get the most out of it. Next time you want to go out to a shoot, let myself or someone here know & we'll meet up with you and can provide additional gear/advise/someone to laugh at/whatever... I bet there's enough shooters on here willing to help someone have fun and guide people through some of the regs & rules of these sports. I've been there myself & had some members help me out...I know they/we can do the same for you. See you at a shoot this month?

[Hoser]

I've been there myself & had some members help me out...

We *all* have been there. Sometimes a gentle "fix that or dont do that" is all it takes.

My first match was a complete train wreck. The second was not much better. But I asked for help and got it. So started the money/time pit some call practical shooting.

[Byte Stryke]

If you run into that Range Officer again, you might want to pull him aside and apologize for airing your dirty laundry here like you did. After all, he let you shoot then stage *and* then he mentioned to you that you needed to fix your belt. I am 99% positive here reads this forum.

Remember, if you have a problem at a match contact the Match Director. Thats what they/we are there for.

regardless,
it wont happen again.
I accept full responsibility, please stop piling guilt
Please let this drop.


I just cannot care anymore

[Hannu]

Specially being in the same squad with you Byte, it makes me feel very sad because you did not had good time in the match :( At next stage, we were wondering what happened to you because you did not show up.

We were in the same squad with RW and Matt, but you probably did not know those guys. You could have talked to me, I am sure we could have set up your gear so it would have been allright.

I kinda understand your anger, but: I hope you will not give up just because somebody did not know the right way to direct a new shooter to the right direction.

You should put your stuff exactly by the book, then go to the match and ask that RO: "how do I look now, prick!" :)

Btw; if someone is seriously questioning your PF, it is his responsible to find and use that chronograph not yours !



USPSA is the US version of IPSC. You would be very hard pressed to find a true IPSC match in the US.

Thank god... IPSC starting up single stack division looks so stupid, when people who have no idea about the sport are making the rules [Bang]



A thick rulebook that addresses just about everything in black and white is a good thing. There is almost no such thing as a judgement call. Either it is legal or it isnt. Not legal one day and illegal the next.

Agreed completely.
"Simple" does not mean how many words your rulebook has - "simple" is a rule that can not be read 168 times differently ;)