Obama Immigration Speech

[Pancho Villa]

I am flabbergasted. I HATE Barack Obama. He is ruining this country.

But he just gave perhaps the best speech I've ever heard on immigration.

All text from http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/05/10/text-of-obamas-speech-on-immigration/


Now, about a week ago, I delivered the commencement address at Miami Dade Community College, one of the most diverse schools in the nation. The graduates were proud that their class could claim heritage from 181 countries around the world. Many of the students were immigrants themselves, coming to America with little more than the dreams of their parents and the clothes on their backs. A handful had discovered only in adolescence or adulthood that they were undocumented. But they worked hard and gave it their all, and they earned those diplomas.

At the ceremony, 181 flags – one for every nation represented – was marched across the stage. Each was applauded by the graduates and relatives with ties to those countries. But then, the last flag – the American flag – came into view. And the room erupted. Every person in the auditorium cheered. Yes, their parents or grandparents – or the graduates themselves – had come from every corner of the globe. But it was here that they had found opportunity, and had a chance to contribute to the nation that is their home.


That’s the promise of this country – that anyone can write the next chapter of our story. It doesn’t matter where you come from; what matters is that you believe in the ideals on which we were founded; that you believe all of us are equal and deserve the freedom to pursue happiness. In embracing America, you can become American. And that enriches all of us.


And I’d point out, the most significant step we can take now to secure the borders is to fix the system as a whole – so that fewer people have incentive to enter illegally in search of work in the first place. This would allow agents to focus on the worst threats on both of our borders – from drug traffickers to those who would come here to commit acts of violence or terror.


And fourth, stopping illegal immigration also depends on reforming our outdated system of legal immigration. We should make it easier for the best and the brightest to not only study here, but also to start businesses and create jobs here. In recent years, a full 25 percent of high-tech startups in the U.S. were founded by immigrants, leading to more than 200,000 jobs in America. I’m glad those jobs are here. And I want to see more of them created in this country.

We need to provide farms a legal way to hire the workers they rely on, and a path for those workers to earn legal status.

I'd say about 90% agree with. He touched - very briefly - on some class warfare nonsense, but it was just a quick pass. Certainly much better than the hickish GOP playing up the "evil businessmen are giving jobs to those who will work the hardest and cheapest instead of people born in America, how unAmerican" angle.

Read the whole thing. You might even like it, even if you despise Obama.

[sneakerd]

I watched it, it's all just talk in my opinion. Nothing short of complete amnesty and virtually open borders will satisfy most liberals.

[Zundfolge]

Well you can tell the boy is back in full on 100% Campaign Mode.

Talk is cheap Barry ... lets see what you do.

[ChunkyMonkey]

He might as well campaign South of the border!

[Pancho Villa]

What's wrong with "virtually open borders"? I wouldn't mind a lot of legal residents here if they come to work, and it should be relatively eay to craft visas and means testing that ensure the immigrants in question don't draw on welfare rolls. Some 14th amendment concerns, but there are relatively easy ways around that (ie not denying them benefits but revoking their visas if they draw benefits for more than x months.)

Citizenship is another matter, but it already takes at least 5 years to get that.

To my mind, someone who has traveled up from Honduras by way of Mexico, risking life and limb (tens of thousand are simply missing, while thousands more are either killed or horribly maimed catching trains north) just to pick fruit for $7/hr is way more deserving of my esteem and respect than some lazy ass who won't see a day of hard work in his life, but his momma plopped him out in the USA.

[ghettodub]

Anyone have a link to the video of it? I'd like to listen to it, but don't have time to read right now.

From the points I read, seems like a pretty good speech. But I'm not a lib hater like a lot of folks, so maybe I'll read more objectively. I'm an all-politician hater, so I judge and dislike both sides equally

[ChunkyMonkey]

To my mind, someone who has traveled up from Honduras by way of Mexico, risking life and limb (tens of thousand are simply missing, while thousands more are either killed or horribly maimed catching trains north) just to pick fruit for $7/hr is way more deserving of my esteem and respect than some lazy ass who won't see a day of hard work in his life, but his momma plopped him out in the USA.

Sure, I don't mind trading off one liberal to Honduras per each hard working legal Honduran.

I think the better question is if they entered the country illegal, they are a criminal to start with. You want to treat these criminals the same as someone like me who paid thousands upon thousands to get here legally and who actually had to prove beyond reasonable doubt that my skill/ability will benefit this country (per required by law)?

[Pancho Villa]

Sure, I don't mind trading off one liberal to Honduras per each hard working legal Honduran.

I think the better question is if they entered the country illegal, they are a criminal to start with. You want to treat these criminals the same as someone like me who paid thousands upon thousands to get here legally and who actually had to prove beyond reasonable doubt that my skill/ability will benefit this country (per required by law)?

The law sucks, and I am sorry you had to go through it. That doesn't mean that everyone should, though - and when we recognize that a certain law (like onerous, counterproductive immigration requirements) is not what we want, we typically grant clemency to those who have broken it.

(As an aside, the low-skilled labor people are so fond of near the border simply can't come here legally - the wait-time is longer than a human lifetime, basically.)

Take this example, for the rule of law types. Suppose it took 10 years and $20,000 to get an AR-15, per 'background check' laws. Would you turn yours in and go through the background check?

Would you turn a neighbor in who didn't?

Yeah, you had to jump through a million retarded hoops to get here legally. On behalf of all Americans (and I have my birth certificate to prove I'm one,) sorry.

Aside: immigration is a civil matter, which means it is tried in civil courts, not criminal courts. So, yes, illegal immigrants broke the law. They get handled by the same people who handle such heinous crimes as speeding tickets and parking in front of a fire hydrant.

I BELIEVE (don't quote me on this) that a second jump across the fence becomes a criminal matter, but illegal immigration per se is the same level of crime - legally speaking - as other matters handled in civil court.

[Ed_S]

Of course his speech was a good one, he's a good talker but his actions well......

He's in full campaign mode and suckers will vote for him again just like the first time. Only thing is if he gets in for a second term we're all doomed!

[ghettodub]

Of course his speech was a good one, he's a good talker but his actions well......

He's in full campaign mode and suckers will vote for him again just like the first time. Only thing is if he gets in for a second term we're all doomed!

Well, it's not like the republican party is bringing out any better choices so far...

And while I'm not a huge fan of Obama, I think our country would still be in the shit shape it is now if McCain and Palin would have been elected, minus health care and some TSA nonsense. It's gonna take a hell of a lot more than just a non-dem in the white house to make a real difference in this country....

[ChunkyMonkey]

And while I'm not a huge fan of Obama, I think our country would still be in the shit shape it is now if McCain and Palin would have been elected,

True.. however, 2nd termer typically has much much more freehand on his (extreme) true agenda.

[Pancho Villa]

Well, it's not like the republican party is bringing out any better choices so far...

And while I'm not a huge fan of Obama, I think our country would still be in the shit shape it is now if McCain and Palin would have been elected, minus health care and some TSA nonsense. It's gonna take a hell of a lot more than just a non-dem in the white house to make a real difference in this country....

I voted for Obama, PRIMARILY because it was my judgement that a McCain presidency would see:

1. Massive bailouts for banks
2. Healthcare reform just mildly less onerous than Obamacare, with the private-insurance-killing "cover preexisting conditions" clause still there
3. Billions of dollars given to foreign countries to apologize for the US being the US

...and if that was gonna happen, I'd rather someone who stands pretty openly for Statism, rather than someone masquerading as a free market guy, be the one doing it.

At least now its a harder argument to say "the free market has failed! We need a candidate who is more big government!" I mean, they are still going to say it (the bailouts weren't big enough! We need a single payer system!) but its definitely easier to say "you were trying statist things to begin with, don't blame the free market."

I'll probably just abstain in disgust if the GOP puts out Palin, Romney, or some other statist idiot. I don't know if the country can take another 4 years of Obama, but I doubt it can take 4 years of Sarah "windfall profit taxes on oil companies are, like, totally free market" Palin or Mitt "Socialist Healthcare is Cool if a Republican Does it" Romney, or one of their many imitators, either.

We need a real free market + individual liberty person, not some politician who talks a big game but will jump on statist measures at the first opportunity.

[sneakerd]

"What's wrong with virtually open borders"? You've got to be kidding me.[Bang]

[Pancho Villa]

What's wrong with "virtually open borders"? You've got to be kidding me.[Bang]

Waiting for what's wrong with handing visas to all non-violent, non-terrorist individuals who won't draw welfare...

[sneakerd]

Huh?

[Pancho Villa]

Huh?

When I say "virtually open borders" those are the conditions I mean. A green card to anyone who wants to work here, won't collect welfare, has no violent record and no attachment to terrorist orgs.

And a (long) path to citizenship for those who want to become a citizen.

[sneakerd]

Ok fine- I have no issue with any of that- but that is a border controlled and regulated. That's what we need, from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific ocean.

[Pancho Villa]

Ok fine- I have no issue with any of that- but that is a border controlled and regulated. That's what we need, from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific ocean.

My personal opinion is that the need for border enforcement will drop drastically if that was implemented, but hey, we can wait and see.

[sneakerd]

Not initially- since the border will need to be CLOSED during implementation. Of course this is all just wishful thinking- since none of this will ever happen. Nobody on either side has the balls to do it, and the Dems will never get on board with ANY serious controls. That's why it is all just talk.

[Pancho Villa]

Not initially- since the border will need to be CLOSED during implementation. Of course this is all just wishful thinking- since none of this will ever happen. Nobody on either side has the balls to do it, and the Dems will never get on board with ANY serious controls. That's why it is all just talk.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "closed."

I think simply opening up the legal option will get the vast majority to stop hopping the fence, not necessitating any sort of step-up in border control. Why would you need to "close" the border?

[sneakerd]

You would need to "close" the border between all of the standard monitored entry points in order to halt the flood of last minute river runners that would begin immediately after the announcement of the new regulations.

[Jumpstart]

Amnesty has proven to be an abysmal failure. Remember the Immigration Reform Act of 1986? Immigration is easy. Enforce the law. Pull ALL the carrots that bring them here illegally in the first place.


Hate to say it, but if they give illegals amnesty yet again, it will be really hard to "pledge allegiance to the flag". Let the deterioration of the greatest empire in the world begin.

[sneakerd]

Well- pledging allegiance to the flag is a symbolic thing- showing your sense of national pride. My sense of national pride does not extend to the current administration, nor do I pledge allegiance to them.

[Jumpstart]

Well- pledging allegiance to the flag is a symbolic thing- showing your sense of national pride. My sense of national pride does not extend to the current administration, nor do I pledge allegiance to them.

I concur. But it seems like amnesty for illegal aliens is like a malignant cancer that goes into remission and then threatens "us" again and again without ever getting rid of it. Time to kill it or be killed. How's that for an analogy?

[Pancho Villa]

You would need to "close" the border between all of the standard monitored entry points in order to halt the flood of last minute river runners that would begin immediately after the announcement of the new regulations.

Still in the dark here. As soon as the new regs go into effect they can march over to an admissions station, pay a few hundred bucks for a medical exam and a background check, then head to el norte. Why would they cross the border before that?

[sneakerd]

Because it's free- or because they're felons in Mexico- or because they don't want to wait for the process because they know that eventually they'll get....................... amnesty. Or- just because they can.

[sneakerd]

Hmmm. Illegal aliens= cancer, spreading freely into and throughout the body of the nation- until the body is overwhelmed by the cancer- and just gives in. Me likey that analogy.

[Pancho Villa]

Hmmm. Illegal aliens= cancer, spreading freely into and throughout the body of the nation- until the body is overwhelmed by the cancer- and just gives in. Me likey that analogy.

Sure hate those guys working for a living all over the place.

Way worse than the welfare queens that have MADE IN THE USA stamped on their ass.

[sneakerd]

I've been to Mexico a couple of times, damn hard working folks in general as I saw, just as I imagine most of them are up here. However, the other end of the teeter-totter is piled high with people who just come here to take advantage of our welfare state.

[Elhuero]

the immigration system is broken, corrupt and pardon my french just plain fucked up.

illegal immigrants are like electricity. they take the path of least resistance.

the people that want to become americans should be able to do so, ellis island style. make the lawful path to citizenship the easiest one to follow and they will do it.

you walk in, pass the medical check and citizenship test, prove you can habla enough english so that we don't have to waste money on translating all our govt services into your native tongue, take the oath and bingo, instant american.

a lot of the things folks say about mexican illegals being lazy and bad is very close to things folks used to say about irish back in 1903.

but along with opening the way up for citizenship, we have to close all other doors.

secure the border. bring home all our troops from korea and put them on the borders. no fences, just the might and the technology of the US army and a big, mean no man's land buffering our nations. kill all drug dealers on sight. no arresting, no processing. jeep coming across the border in BFE AZ gets a visit from the angry flying cross of God (A-10), or a Just Die Already Manuel. (JDAM)

when a naturalized citizen gets too many felonies, (hell, when any citizen gets too man felonies) revoke their citizenship and deport them someplace polar.

change the constitution so that you're only a natural born american citizen if one of your parents was.

and the only entrance to these "ellis islands" of the southwest is at the border, so if you're here illegally you have to leave the country to get there. fail the test and you go back out into mexico. one try every 30 days.

in the US, you get pulled over, don't speak a lick of english and can't prove you're here legally, well, out you go. bye bye, back to meh-hee-coh. wife's giving birth tomorrow? tough luck. grandma on death bed? better write a letter and hope she gets it before she kicks the cubeta.

get caught driving drunk, and it's your second time since you got deported last year... you get a red, white, and green pair of mukluks and off to el gran norte blanco you go.

make the penalties for violating the immigration law so swift and harsh, you'll have people lining up to do it right.

[sneakerd]

Yuppers.

[sneakerd]

Elhuero for President! Who's with me! YAAAAAA[AR15]

[Pancho Villa]

Hmmm. Illegal aliens= cancer, spreading freely into and throughout the body of the nation- until the body is overwhelmed by the cancer- and just gives in. Me likey that analogy.

Sure hate those guys working for a living all over the place.

Way worse than the welfare queens that have MADE IN THE USA stamped on their ass.

[spyder]

Sure hate those guys working for a living all over the place.

Way worse than the welfare queens that have MADE IN THE USA stamped on their ass.
Why can't we just dislike them both?

[Pancho Villa]

Why can't we just dislike them both?

'cause one should be allowed in legally, and another shouldn't be allowed to mooch off of working guys.

Little difference.

[sneakerd]

Pancho- see my response to yours just before Elhueros long diatribe.

[rockhound]

so we are only thinking about the polarizing candidates from the GOP,

Palin, Romney, maybe Trump.


What about the more mainstream candidates? Herman Cain, Steve Pawlenty, Rick Santorum, Gary Johnson

The cartoons are not the only republican candidates out there. did you watch the debates at all? a lot of their ideas are sound and they do have solutions.

as for the issues with an open border legal or illegal, they are obvious and we are seeing the results of them right now. there is no way any country can sustain a totally open border system even for those who are "here for a job" there are not enough jobs to go around. an open border is suicide for any political system.

Mccain apologize for the US are you kidding me, that is all Obuma (not a typo) has done for 2 years. Obamacare is a major cluster, the only policies that have worked for him are carry overs from Bush.

he has hamstringed our ability to drill for our own oil, made us look weak in the face of true enemies, and has spent more money in two years than all the presidents combined. my 4 year old has a better understanding of economics than this idiot.

the free market system does work if gov't will keep their hands out of it, but it cannot support every person in the world.

those who are so happy to have illegals here obviously have not had their lives or lives of friends and family adversely affected by it.

a free border is a fast way to turn the US into another third world country. if you like it so much you are free to leave. oh illegally of course as Mexico sure wouldn't let you migrate that direction.

[rockhound]

"In recent years, Latinas/os have been identified as the fastest rate of imprisonment of all groups in the country."


cause they are all here to work hard and just be good citizens, don't you just feel warm and fuzzy all over.

what a load of crap

[sneakerd]

Ouch. Point Rockhound.

[Gunner]

[QUO

a free border is a fast way to turn the US into another third world country. if you like it so much you are free to leave. oh illegally of course as Mexico sure wouldn't let you migrate that direction.[/QUOTE]


^
this

[hurley842002]

Yet another gentle reminder, in case some of you aren't aware, or are new to the site. Ole Pancho advocates for, and has admitted to hiring illegal immigrants. His responses to this thread, paint a fairly decent picture of what he's about, but just figured i'd throw that in there as well.

[Clint45]

One of my biggest problems with illegal immigrants is their failure to abide by our laws. Many of them own cars but lack a driver license and insurance -- most of these cars have paper temp tags, frequently bogus ones, taped inside their back window. They then proceed to drive their illegal car in an unsafe and unlawful manner: ignoring traffic lights, traffic signs, and basic rules of the road; driving aggressively; driving carelessly; driving while intoxicated; and leaving the scenes of accidents they cause. Then there is their misuse of SSNs, leaving innocent citizens liable for tax debts they have accrued. And as for working hard, sure, about a third of them seem to work very hard. But another third doesn't seem to do any honest work at all. I see a lot of Mexican thugs, gangsters, panhandlers, and homeless here in Denver.

[rockhound]

Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.
The law also says Mexico can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to “economic or national interests,” violate Mexican law, are not “physically or mentally healthy” or lack the “necessary funds for their sustenance” and for their dependents.





I SAY IF IT WORKS FOR THEM THEN WHY NOT US?


CAUSE WE ARE STUPID POLITICALLY CORRECT A..HOLES THAT JUST WANT EVERYONE TO GET ALONG.


I am happy to say that I have never had that affliction.


I have never taken a hand out in my life, I am teaching my children to live the same way. I will be damned if I am going let illegals cross the border and take advantage of my tax dollars without speaking up about it.


I am happy for those of who paid your taxes and got a refund from old uncle sam. i do not begrudge you that at all, But i wrote the feds a $23,000 check this year, yeah $23,000


I expect some of that money to go to protecting me and my family from the illegals crossing our southern border. i did not write that check so someone can sneak in and get free health care, not pay federal taxes, drain my kids education money from the schools, get free maternity care at denver general, food stamps, housing assistance, plead to a lesser offense when they get arrested, let go after there third DUI, let off from a traffic accident cause they don't have ID or insurance,



But i digress and there are no issues with illegals at all, there I said it, now everyone just move along there is nothing to see here citizen, nothing at all.

[rockhound]

Yet another gentle reminder, in case some of you aren't aware, or are new to the site. Ole Pancho advocates for, and has admitted to hiring illegal immigrants. His responses to this thread, paint a fairly decent picture of what he's about, but just figured i'd throw that in there as well.


yes we are painfully aware,

you know if he gets busted hiring illegals, maybe they will get him on a felony labor charge and then he will lose his rights to own a firearm cause if he is here legally then there won't be any pleading him down to agricultural trespassing (thank's Ritter you dumba..)

[sneakerd]

30 love Rockhound (tennis analogy)

[High Altitude]

Considering McDonalds had 1million applicants for the 60k jobs, the last thing we need is immigrants coming to America and taking jobs that Americans/legal residents want.

Look at what happen with Chipotle in Arizona. So much for the thought that these are jobs only illegals will work.

Legal residents/citizens are hurting for work, the last thing we need to do is open our borders.

We need to treat the illegal immigrants like the criminals they are.

[Jumpstart]

Sure hate those guys working for a living all over the place.

Way worse than the welfare queens that have MADE IN THE USA stamped on their ass.
Check the unemployment rates in counties that border Mexico. (I grew up in one) Lot's of people (Overwhelmingly Mexican of course) who aren't working and taking a check from good old Uncle Sam. As for "working all over the place", the original argument was that "they are only here to pick lettuce". American teen unemployment was at approximately 25% last year (I believe last year). Illegal are taking jobs from them, us. I could go on, but I won't. Let's use Mexico's immigration laws. Talk about taking care of yourself...

[rockhound]

Colorado taxpayers shell out $925 million for educating illegals, $82 million for medical costs and $38 million for incarceration costs. Another $68 million pays for English as a Second Language classes for illegals.

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Educating illegal aliens' children bankrupting Colorado schools - Denver Immigration Reform | Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/immigration-reform-in-denver/educating-illegal-aliens-children-bankrupting-colorado-schools#ixzz1M05Ga6XS) http://www.examiner.com/immigration-reform-in-denver/educating-illegal-aliens-children-bankrupting-colorado-schools#ixzz1M05Ga6XS


YEAH WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS AN OPEN BORDER [Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang]

[rockhound]

An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration


YEAH WHAT WE NEED IS OPEN BORDERS [Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang]

[rockhound]

•In Texas, where the state comptroller estimates illegal immigrants cost hospitals $1.3 billion in 2006, the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston is considering denying cancer care to such immigrants


YEAH WHAT WE NEED IS OPEN BORDERS [Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang]

[rockhound]

At an August 2009 healthcare Town Hall in Phoenix, legislators said that more than half of Arizona’s 4 billion dollar budget deficit was the result of paying for three areas of services to illegal immigrants: education, healthcare, and incarceration.


YEAH WHAT WE NEED IS OPEN BORDERS [Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang]

[rockhound]

SO PANCHO, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT YOU GET TO USE SOME POOR ILLEGAL FOR CHEAP LABOR SO YOU GET TO TAKE HOME A FEW MORE BUCKS CAUSE YOU AREN'T PAYING FOR WORKMAN'S COMP OR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OR FEDERAL WITHHOLDING FOR HIM, WHICH COMBINED USED TO COST MY COMPANY (WHICH I BUSTED MY ASS TO OPERATE) MORE THAN 73 CENTS FOR EVERY DOLLAR I PAID MY EMPLOYEES.

WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BENEFIT TO HAVING 30 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS? THERE ARE NONE AND YOU KNOW IT.


I say sentry guns and US Marines could seal our southern border in a hurry.

[sneakerd]

It appears that Pancho's nuts have retreated back to their cave. Can I say that? To me at least, Rockhounds points are indisputable. But I still go back to my original point. It is all talk because there will be no action in this direction, since none of our fearless leaders have the balls to tackle the problem.

[rockhound]

I used to believe that my children would see a revolution in their lifetime. Now I am not so sure that I will not see it in mine.

the American people are fed up with their leadership in this country.

I for one will not be voting for any candidate who even remotely considers amnesty or any other option other than sending them all home.

They don't have any balls, they are so afraid of pissing people off.

My tolerance for for our lack of leadership on this issue has gotten very short.

In my opinion any president who does not close the border has violated his oath to uphold our laws and has committed an act of treason, that includes George Bush despite his trip around the desert in the dune buggy.

[spyder]

'cause one should be allowed in legally, and another shouldn't be allowed to mooch off of working guys.

Little difference.
You didn't answer the original question on why I can't dislike illegals working under the table, and welfare whores at the same time... You know who I dislike even more? The piece of shit contractor's or business owners that put illegals to work to save money. That shit drags down our economy even more. They are crooks and should be sent over the damn border with the illegals. Like I mentioned in another post, I enjoyed reporting contractors that had illegals working for them. Actually someone mentioned sending illegals to russia at one point (good idea).

[sneakerd]

I agree with most everything you say- but I don't think it will EVER be properly addressed, since so many Americans have gotten soft, and the younger folks- especially college grads, have been brought up on multi-culturalism and brain-washed by leftist, socialist, anti-America teachers and professors.

[sniper7]

I have said it before, i will say it again. FUCK the ILLEGALS. that is what they are. ILLEGAL.

fuck anyone who thinks they should be given ANYTHING I work for. I want to see armed patrols on the border shooting anyone illegal taking a step in this country. I don't give a shit what race color religion. They are breaking the law, they continue to break the law, they bring in drugs, disease, rape, pillage, murder, steal, and take advantage of our country and our citizens.


I know a lot of legal immigrants who came to this country the right way, they put in the time, paid the money and they work hard and pay their fair share to enjoy the american dream. I respect those people a lot more than I respect a kid born here expecting his parents to take care of his lazy ass his whole life.

I do think the system needs updating to make it easier for good HARDWORKING people to come here.

We also need to tighten up the entitlement programs and make it equally as hard to get a free check, food, housing, healthcare, childcare etc etc.

Those alone would save this country and I bet we could pay off our debt in 10 years.


If you have children in the public schools systems, take this example as my wife does it every day, I subbed for her one day and got to take it in first hand: children of illegal immigrants (anchor babies). she has 2 in her class. both mostly speak spanish, read english at a 1st grade level while they are in 7th grade. she is FORCED BY LAW to read them any test they have to take. I gave a test and had to read it to them. She also has to read articles and other readings to them BY LAW. So your kids that are in her class (while your property taxes and levys are paying for the schools, materials, bussing, salaries, janitors etc etc) are getting that one on one time taken away from them thanks to illegals. Your kids are not getting the teaching they deserve and you are paying for because BY LAW teachers have to do this kind of absolute BULLSHIT.

Keep loving illegals....if you do all I have to tell you is fuck yourself.

[spyder]

Isn't there a bill somewhere trying to get passed that is doing away with the bilingual shit in our schools and the "no child left behind" crap?

[spyder]

Personally, I think that all of the libertards that fight for illegals and all of the other bleeding heart dumb asses should just take their silly asses to mexico and try to make mexico a better place to live so everyone from there isn't trying to come here. Two birds, one stone.

[Anton]

I voted for Obama

So you employ illegals and are an Obama voter. Interesting.

You are what is wrong with this country.

[Jumpstart]

I used to believe that my children would see a revolution in their lifetime. Now I am not so sure that I will not see it in mine.

the American people are fed up with their leadership in this country.

I for one will not be voting for any candidate who even remotely considers amnesty or any other option other than sending them all home.

They don't have any balls, they are so afraid of pissing people off.

My tolerance for for our lack of leadership on this issue has gotten very short.

In my opinion any president who does not close the border has violated his oath to uphold our laws and has committed an act of treason, that includes George Bush despite his trip around the desert in the dune buggy.


I concur.

[KevDen2005]

What I want is secure borders, however the system for immigration is severely outdated. Not that it is generally enforced that well, but there are some major obstacles for children that were brought here illegally and didn't know it (which my belief is always that the children are the real victims).

I want a better system in place and more secure borders. I want immigrants to come here as they always have to (legally of course) and to help make this country the great one that it is.

I am sure BHO is full of talk though, his speech was good, and he really gets on my nerves, but I think he all talk.

[rockhound]

So you employ illegals and are an Obama voter. Interesting.

You are what is wrong with this country.




OMFG, there are some people who actually get it.

[Pancho Villa]

SO PANCHO, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT YOU GET TO USE SOME POOR ILLEGAL FOR CHEAP LABOR SO YOU GET TO TAKE HOME A FEW MORE BUCKS CAUSE YOU AREN'T PAYING FOR WORKMAN'S COMP OR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OR FEDERAL WITHHOLDING FOR HIM, WHICH COMBINED USED TO COST MY COMPANY (WHICH I BUSTED MY ASS TO OPERATE) MORE THAN 73 CENTS FOR EVERY DOLLAR I PAID MY EMPLOYEES.

WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BENEFIT TO HAVING 30 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS? THERE ARE NONE AND YOU KNOW IT.


I say sentry guns and US Marines could seal our southern border in a hurry.

higher economic growth - cheap labor spurs economic growth, as anyone with some basics in economics would be able to tell you.

Example: Employer A saves $5,000 a year due to cheap labor, that $5,000 is able to be reinvested into business growth. Multiply that by 10 laborers and you suddenly have the money to hire a higher-level manager, accountant, secretary, real estate agent, whatever. That makes your business more productive - when a businessman pays a guy $50,000, he expects that the guy will MAKE way more than $50,000 in profit for him, or contribute to additional profit. A secretary frees the boss up to fine tune the business; a manager increases worker efficiency; a specialist does his job better than it was being done before, saving money or bringing in more business. So that $50,000 saved doesn't just create a higher-skilled job; it ends up making the businessman more than $50,000 in additional profits.

The economic impact of cheap labor (which is what a lot of illegal immigrants are - about 50% for sure, the other 50% being a mix between higher-skilled labor and recently graduated students who have overstayed their visas, and lower-skilled labor that has overstayed their visas, with an emphasis on the higher-skilled labor) is well documented by any free-market economist - and its tremendous. Studies by anti-immigrant, environmentalist places like the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) ignore this impact on purpose, because their agenda is have a moratorium on immigration in America period, the agrument being that we are "using up our precious natural resources and ruining the environment."

You remember how the minimum wage stifles growth and raises unemployment? Republicans used to fight against minimum wage raises every time the dems tried to get them through.

ANY artificial floor on wages - such as artificially shrinking the labor market through draconian immigration laws - does that. There's a reason Arizona, a VERY business-friendly state, has been the hardest hit in the recession - their are driving away one of the crucial agents of economic growth, cheap labor, and a combination of a lot of jobs lost in higher-skilled jobs and unemployment insurance is keeping the wage floor artifically high, stifling the kind of labor market that would really help jumpstart the economy.

Contrast with some of the states least hard hit by the great recession - like Texas - where the business community is VERY vocal about the value of illegal immigrant labor. The recession has hit Texas least hard, and its consistently ranking as one of the best plaaces to do business, and its job market - including higher-skilled labor - is better than almost anywhere in the country.

The facts speak for themselves. You cannot hide from the laws of economics, and they state quite simply that lots of immigrant labor is a crucial component to fast economic recovery.

Also, capslock key, bro. You might want to try turning it off a little more.


It appears that Pancho's nuts have retreated back to their cave. Can I say that? To me at least, Rockhounds points are indisputable. But I still go back to my original point. It is all talk because there will be no action in this direction, since none of our fearless leaders have the balls to tackle the problem.

Or maybe I have a job, a wife and a kid on the way, and can't spend all day on co-ar15.com. Rockhound's points aren't indisputable, they are just the same old rhetoric that has 0 backing from real life.

But I'm sure it feels good to get angry.


I do think the system needs updating to make it easier for good HARDWORKING people to come here.

This is my main point. Its pretty easy to craft such a system and it will prevent the many real problems (property damage along the border and overloading courts with nonviolent illegals whose great big crime was picking fruiting) that the current system has, provide labor that will spur economic growth and not cost billions of dollars on a yearly basis to militarize the border, while freeing up resources to go after actual bad guys (drug dealers, terrorists and the like.)

In the meantime, though, I'm still having a hard time getting bad at the guy who crossed the border to work hard and stay quiet.


We also need to tighten up the entitlement programs and make it equally as hard to get a free check, food, housing, healthcare, childcare etc etc.

Those alone would save this country and I bet we could pay off our debt in 10 years.

Actually, no. If we cut social security, medicare, and medicaid entirely, AND cut military spending in half, we'd be on track to pay off the debt in about 20 years.

People who claim that the budget can be balanced and the debt paid off by getting rid of waste or tightening up the requirements to collect unemployment or food stamps or whatever, need to grab their brains and look at the actual numbers.


If you have children in the public schools systems, take this example as my wife does it every day, I subbed for her one day and got to take it in first hand: children of illegal immigrants (anchor babies). she has 2 in her class. both mostly speak spanish, read english at a 1st grade level while they are in 7th grade. she is FORCED BY LAW to read them any test they have to take. I gave a test and had to read it to them. She also has to read articles and other readings to them BY LAW. So your kids that are in her class (while your property taxes and levys are paying for the schools, materials, bussing, salaries, janitors etc etc) are getting that one on one time taken away from them thanks to illegals. Your kids are not getting the teaching they deserve and you are paying for because BY LAW teachers have to do this kind of absolute BULLSHIT.

I don't want to be paying for that. Or your kid's schooling - in english. This wouldn't be a problem if the government wasn't in the business of redistributing income and forcing me to pay for your (and Jose's) kids' education.

Again, these are problems inherent in the welfare state. I also don't want my kids taught most of the bullshit in public schools, in fact, I don't want ANY kid taught the bullshit they peddle in public schools - yet I am forced to fund it all. This isn't something that's a problem with illegals. Get rid of the illegals, and we're still forced to pay for kids to be brainwashed by PC, multiculturalist bullshit.

Fight the right fight.

Also:


fuck anyone who thinks they should be given ANYTHING I work for. I want to see armed patrols on the border shooting anyone illegal taking a step in this country. I don't give a shit what race color religion. They are breaking the law, they continue to break the law, they bring in drugs, disease, rape, pillage, murder, steal, and take advantage of our country and our citizens.

This is some crazy fantasy, but given your thoughts on the budget, I'm not surprised that your politics come from imagination land.


I am sure BHO is full of talk though, his speech was good, and he really gets on my nerves, but I think he all talk.

I'm not holding my breath.


So you employ illegals and are an Obama voter. Interesting.

You are what is wrong with this country.

So its your position that McCain wouldn't have also pushed coverage for preexisting conditions (which he has supported,) tons of foreign aid (which he has supported,) more bailouts (which he has supported,) and basically everything that's made BHO's presidency a massive failure, except he'll be shouting "free markets! liberty!" the whole time?

That was my judgment of the scene at the time. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't go pretending I'm some Obama lover.

Let me be clear: I'm not okay with illegals coming here and sucking up welfare, but there has been none - zero - credible studies that show that this is going on at a significant rate. And it would be easy as pie to let in all the cheap (and skilled) labor that wants in with safeguards against just that. It would also make border enforcement against the real bad guys that people are legitimately afraid of - murderers, terrorists, drug dealers, whatever - a lot easier. But the GOP isn't serious about that, because its a nice issue to fire up the base.

The Dems aren't either, by the way. But that doesn't make the GOP's position on this permissible.

[rockhound]

[Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang]

[B]Illegal Aliens Cost Texas Taxpayers $4.7 Billion a Year (http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000942.html)

By Digger / April 10, 2005 02:23 AM http://s7.addthis.com/static/btn/v2/lg-share-en.gif (http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php?v=250&username=xa-4b8f6d0775fd8934)
A new report is out that shows the costs imposed on Texas taxpayers by illegal aliens. The report was released by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=2669&c=55) (FAIR). The current estimates show there are 1.5 million illegal aliens in Texas. The costs when broken down comes to a total of $725 a year per taxpaying household to cover the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens throughout the state.
The more than $4.7 billion in costs incurred by Texas taxpayers annually result from outlays in the following areas: [B]Education. Based on estimates of the illegal immigrant population in Texas and documented costs of K-12 schooling, Texans spend more than $4 billion annually on education for illegal immigrant children and for their U.S.-born siblings. About 11.9 percent of the K-12 public school students in Texas are children of illegal aliens.
Health Care. Taxpayer-funded medical outlays for health care provided to the state’s illegal alien population amount to about $520 million a year.
Incarceration. The uncompensated cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in Texas’s state and county prisons amounts to about $150 million a year (not including local jail detention costs or related law enforcement and judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes that led to their incarceration).
The fiscal costs of illegal immigration do not end with these three major cost areas. The total costs of illegal immigration to the state’s taxpayers would be considerably higher if other cost areas such as special English instruction, welfare programs used by the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens, or welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal alien workers were also calculated.







fine no caps, i have many articles about Texas and their economy. none of which even hint at their success having anything to do with iilegal aliens being great for their prosperity.


you are high.........




their economy is doing a little better than some or most state because their economy outstrips that of most countries. Texas would be the 64th largest economy in the world were it not for the fact that it is part of the US. they have a good part of the fortune 500 companies calling texas home.


they are doing better because they had farther to fall and have more resources for high paying jobs.


to think that illegals are the reason for their prosperity is moronic.

[B]Illegal immigration and the cost to Texas (http://www.chinatownconnection.com/illegal-immigration-cost-texas.htm) http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/symres:sb_safeannotation.png

The Texas Hospital Association has estimated the annual cost of uncompensated care to illegal immigrants at nearly $400 million a year. ...Texas taxpayers spent at least $250 million last year in state prison and health care costs for illegal immigrants




here's a nice comforting story

"In Los Angeles, unionized black janitors had been earning $12 an hour, with benefits. But with the advent of subcontractors who compose roaming crews of Mexican and El Salvadoran laborers, the pay dropped to the minimum wage of $3.35 per hour. Within two years, the unionized crews had all been displaced by the foreign ones, and without any other skills, most of the native workforce did not find new work."
the illegals do provide a cheap source of labor other than that they are a drain



it doesn't matter how many articles you pull showing the devastating effect
they have on our society and our economy as long their are scum bag employers willing to take advantage of some poor mexican who will work without workman's comp or health care or unemployment benefits then we are screwed.

but for the hell of it here is one more.


According to a new report (http://www.fairus.org/site/News2/708226221?page=NewsArticle&id=23190&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1761), Illegal Immigration costs U.S. Taxpayers a whopping $113 Billion annually and the government is arguing over where to cut the budget? Seems to me that arresting the flow and expense of illegal immigration would be a great place to start. Then again we would all hear how unfair that would be from the likes of the Mexican Government to those liberals in this country that cannot comprehend that no matter what illegals may bring economically it will never offset the overwhelming costs associated with turning a blind eye to real and meaningful immigration reform.



Read more: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-political-commentary/2011/04/illegal-immigration-costs-us-taxpayers-113-billion-annually.html#ixzz1M5I3iUys


[Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang]
i am done here

[ChunkyMonkey]

Pancho,

The argument that low wages (strictly for the illegals in this context) is beneficial to businesses is extremely flawed. Although I understand that one who is dodging paying employment and social security tax would 'benefit' from this.

"Fair wages" in competitive market is healthy - not low wages. You seem to categorize illegal workers as cheap sweatshop labor. I can understand how one would want immigration reform to share the American dream, but you are clearly taking advantage of the illegals hardship.

To say that one can save tons of money by hiring illegals with low wages so he can compete and undercut his competitors and keep more profit is worse than being a child prostitute pimp imho.

What you have admittedly doing is not only illegal but such a disgrace. So much so that you would never admitted what who you are and what your business is openly in this forum. I move the mods to ban Pancho!

[Pancho Villa]

FAIR was started by John Tanton, the same guy who started the Center for Immigration Studies.

Tanton is a radical environmentalist, who was on the board for the Sierra Club pushing population control, is a believer in the "population bomb" bullshit.

He got into immigration control for that reason, and that viewpoint colors the organization to this day.

He also has some ties to white supremacists, as he's the publisher of a journal called "The Social Contract," which pushes the usual great stuff about how black people really are genetically dumber, that US culture is "anglo-european" (wtf?) and that the only way to keep the US great is to keep it "anglo-european" (ie white.)

Excuse me if I take his numbers with something more than a grain of salt. I'm sure if environmentalists will make shit up or slant the data to show a "global warming crisis," they will do the same for an "illegal immigration crisis."

Notice how FAIR/CIS never goes into studiesabout what taxes (sales, property and income) that illegals pay, nor the economic impact of the cheaper labor? Theres a reason for tha. Here's some actual economists and not a bunch of environmentalists WHACKOS talking about immigration:

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/07/why-economists-like-immigration.html
http://select.nytimes.com/preview/2006/07/09/magazine/1125014296476.html
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/01/immigration

Contrast that with free-market economists - who overwhelmingly favor immigration and will tell you all day the ways in which they are a great benefit.

You can find economists who don't want more immigration (ie amnesty and to open the immigration system up to let the cheap labor in.) But then you're listening to statist economists like Paul Krugman, and others who have laughably wrong premises when it comes to economics.

So I guess if you thought the bailouts and economic stimulus made great economic sense, you would also hate illegal immigrants. But hey, if you're that dumb, I got nothing for you.

[spyder]

First of all before you go on some kind of wild tangent that cheap labor is better and big fix to our problems, I would like you to show credible evedince by someone who is a credible economist that isn't just a one sided jackass speaking to get more illerate non english speaking morons to our country. Your cheap labor forces are responsible for putting decent law abiding companies out of business, and law abiding citizens out of work. If you argue that, you are simply a moron just here to argue for the sake of arguing. These illegal practicing companies can underbid any job out there and take it away from the decent contractors who follow the laws. They can also sell their products cheaper, the list goes on. Like I said, I think those contractors should be walked across the borders with their illegal counterparts.

Now bringing skilled workers here legally is completely different. Also on the note of a baby being born here by an illegal, the baby should also be illegal. That law is completely stupid the way it is. We already have enough kids that the system pays for, we don't need more provided by border jumpers.

[Pancho Villa]

Pancho,

The argument that low wages (strictly for the illegals in this context) is beneficial to businesses is extremely flawed. Although I understand that one who is dodging paying employment and social security tax would 'benefit' from this.

"Fair wages" in competitive market is healthy - not low wages. You seem to categorize illegal workers as cheap sweatshop labor. I can understand how one would want immigration reform to share the American dream, but you are clearly taking advantage of the illegals hardship.

To say that one can save tons of money by hiring illegals with low wages so he can compete and undercut his competitors and keep more profit is worse than being a child prostitute pimp imho.

What you have admittedly doing is not only illegal but such a disgrace. So much so that you would never admitted what who you are and what your business is openly in this forum. I move the mods to ban Pancho!

Context; When I hired day laborers in Dallas, I am sure I also hired some illegals among them. I'm not currently employing anyone here in Colorado. I never checked immigration status on any employee because it wasn't the law in Texas at the time (and it was day labor, anyway.)

It would be nice if people actually remember what I said instead of going off the deep end, but hey, what can I expect?

Anyway - if you disagree with basic economics, you disagree with basic economics. You'll ruin the economy - but I'm sure you'll feel very righteous doing it. Have fun with that.

[Pancho Villa]

First of all before you go on some kind of wild tangent that cheap labor is better and big fix to our problems, I would like you to show credible evedince by someone who is a credible economist that isn't just a one sided jackass speaking to get more illerate non english speaking morons to our country. Your cheap labor forces are responsible for putting decent law abiding companies out of business, and law abiding citizens out of work. If you argue that, you are simply a moron just here to argue for the sake of arguing. These illegal practicing companies can underbid any job out there and take it away from the decent contractors who follow the laws. They can also sell their products cheaper, the list goes on. Like I said, I think those contractors should be walked across the borders with their illegal counterparts.

Now bringing skilled workers here legally is completely different. Also on the note of a baby being born here by an illegal, the baby should also be illegal. That law is completely stupid the way it is. We already have enough kids that the system pays for, we don't need more provided by border jumpers.

Hey Spyder,

See my links above. Its a fairly uncontroversial position among students of Mises, Hayek, etc - the free market folks.

The Kenynesians - the guys responsible for stuff like the bank bailouts, TARP, buying up GM, the stimulus, etc - are far more divided on the issue, but who in their right mind would listen to them anyway?

Pursue the knowledge on your own if you want to know more. Its all very fascinating stuff.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Context; When I hired day laborers in Dallas, I am sure I also hired some illegals among them. I'm not currently employing anyone here in Colorado. I never checked immigration status on any employee because it wasn't the law in Texas at the time (and it was day labor, anyway.)

It would be nice if people actually remember what I said instead of going off the deep end, but hey, what can I expect?

Anyway - if you disagree with basic economics, you disagree with basic economics. You'll ruin the economy - but I'm sure you'll feel very righteous doing it. Have fun with that.

It's clear to me that you are not arguing on 'open borders' for illegal rights at all. You are taking advantages of the illegals for the low wages for your own version of 'economic growth.' Backtrack all you want, they are all here for everyone to read. Sick!

[roberth]

Context; When I hired day laborers in Dallas, I am sure I also hired some illegals among them. I'm not currently employing anyone here in Colorado. I never checked immigration status on any employee because it wasn't the law in Texas at the time (and it was day labor, anyway.)

It would be nice if people actually remember what I said instead of going off the deep end, but hey, what can I expect?

Anyway - if you disagree with basic economics, you disagree with basic economics. You'll ruin the economy - but I'm sure you'll feel very righteous doing it. Have fun with that.

The job of a business is to make money and work within a given ruleset. You did that in Dallas, that's why you may have hired illegals. I have a better understanding of this now than before when I read that post you made many moons ago.

While I may wish business was more diligent in checking the status of folks, if the ruleset doesn't include a check than I cannot very well expect a business to conduct that check voluntarily.

It is unfortunate that business needs the government to tell them to check the status of folks but that is the environment we live in now.

[Pancho Villa]

It's clear to me that you are not arguing on 'open borders' for illegal rights at all. You are taking advantages of the illegals for the low wages for your own version of 'economic growth.' Backtrack all you want, they are all here for everyone to read. Sick!

Hey, I get it. You're a socialist. You want a "fair wage" (which means whatever wage makes you feel good.) You want the govt to step in and make sure the stupid peons out there are taken care of by big brother.

I deal with adults, not kids. And I have enough respect for human beings that I don't think they need to be protected from me offering them a job by the govt.

But there will always be guys who think some people deserve a free ride. You're one of them.


The job of a business is to make money and work within a given ruleset. You did that in Dallas, that's why you may have hired illegals. I have a better understanding of this now than before when I read that post you made many moons ago.

While I may wish business was more diligent in checking the status of folks, if the ruleset doesn't include a check than I cannot very well expect a business to conduct that check voluntarily.

It is unfortunate that business needs the government to tell them to check the status of folks but that is the environment we live in now.

Its unfortunate that some people feel the need to tell me who I can and cannot hire, based on where their momma plopped them out. Its especially sad that these same people complain about the govt telling them what to do.

I know a lot of people want the government to step in and protect them from competition, but the true story is that you won't be.

[Jumpstart]

Can any one tell me why we still have state sanctioned racial discrimination against white males via Affirmative Action ?

[Pancho Villa]

Can any one tell me why we still have state sanctioned racial discrimination against white males via Affirmative Action ?

Well, a little off-topic, but its because the state is full of shit. It was a bad idea to begin with and is even dumber today.

[roberth]

Its unfortunate that some people feel the need to tell me who I can and cannot hire, based on where their momma plopped them out. Its especially sad that these same people complain about the govt telling them what to do.

You opened that door in this forum so you'll have to ride that out.




I know a lot of people want the government to step in and protect them from competition, but the true story is that you won't be.

Those people don't have a complete understanding of capitalism and our constitutional republic.

[Buzzkill69]

We need to treat the illegal immigrants like the criminals they are.


I agree, but instead our president is doing everything possible to encourage illegal immigration. From his crucifixion of Arizona while kissing president Calderon's ass to his order's to the Border Patrol to stop arresting illegals to give the illusion that the border is "as secure as it's been in twenty years". [Bang]

[streetglideok]

My problem isnt with hispanics coming to this country per say, its the other problems, like a lack of regard for our laws, learning the spoken language, expense on the country, and a lack of respect for the country itself. Some of the problems are isolated, but at the same time, I dont see other hispanics demanding that they stop their actions. One case in point, the hispanics who were flying their flag(mexican perhaps?) on a flagpole outside of their bar inside the USA. Problem was, they showed a blatant disregard to the country, and an old law and tradition, by flying it ABOVE the US flag. If the old country was so good, why did they come here? Next problem is, in years past, how often was tests, road signs, etc written in italian, russian, german, or any other language but english, because we had immigrants from those countries? The immigrants learned what we spoke here, or made every attempt, and adopted their new homeland. Next issue, how many have been hit in their car by an uninsured illegal, leaving you, or our insirance companies stuck with the bill? We have immigrants here who havent made an attempt to learn our language, yet we should bend to their problem. Last I checked, they came here by choice, if they cant or wont learn english, they dont have plans to be very productive here.
Any immigrant who wants to come here, is more then invited in my opinion, with a catch. They need to come here with the plan of being productive, not using our ERs for every ailment, leaving us with the bill, not leaching off our welfare system, or disability system, as we have plenty in need of it now, and plenty mooching on it already, in other words work to support all the kids they have. They need to learn the language we all speak and read. They need to obey our laws. They need to adopt our ways. They may bring their own customs as well, but ours take priority, as it is OUR country. They made the choice to come here, they can learn to live here, or go back home and try to change their country. Dont come here and expect to use our political system to change ours.

[clublights]

Not to knock anyone........... Or to disagree with their statements or opinions...


How exactly does healthcare work in mexico/ other countries "south of the border"?

[rockhound]

[quote=Pancho Villa;353126]FAIR was started by John Tanton, the same guy who started the Center for Immigration Studies.

Tanton is a radical environmentalist, who was on the board for the Sierra Club pushing population control, is a believer in the "population bomb" bullshit.

He got into immigration control for that reason, and that viewpoint colors the organization to this day.


Notice how FAIR/CIS never goes into studiesabout what taxes (sales, property and income) that illegals pay, nor the economic impact of the cheaper labor? Theres a reason for tha. Here's some actual economists and not a bunch of environmentalists WHACKOS talking about immigration:

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/07/why-economists-like-immigration.html
http://select.nytimes.com/preview/2006/07/09/magazine/1125014296476.html
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/01/immigration

Contrast that with free-market economists - who overwhelmingly favor immigration and will tell you all day the ways in which they are a great benefit.


so instead of refuting the fact in the article you just call the study racist,

whatever, i have lived it, i have competed with companies that hire illegals and i know the impact they have,



just for the fact that you are pulling the race card, which this has nothing to do with, here is the report from 2007 from the congressional budget office. concerning the costs of illegal immigration especially as it relates to the individual states

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf

or are they being racist also??????

[Elhuero]

Not to knock anyone........... Or to disagree with their statements or opinions...


How exactly does healthcare work in mexico/ other countries "south of the border"?


you pay up front and the doctor treats you.

you don't pay, they let you die.

[clublights]

you pay up front and the doctor treats you.

you don't pay, they let you die.

Not saying your wrong .........


but


Really?

[rockhound]

i thought they just stole your kidneys or liver and then let you die [LOL]

[Elhuero]

Not saying your wrong .........


but


Really?


yup.

go on vacation to cabo, get appendicitis, go to hospital, you pay up front.

[clublights]

i thought they just stole your kidneys or liver and then let you die [LOL]

[ROFL1]



yup.

go on vacation to cabo, get appendicitis, go to hospital, you pay up front.

Is that for "foreigners" only or the locals the same ?

[BPTactical]

Nephew, Niece and Brother in law were in Cancun in '05 and the nephew had a seizure while horseassing in the surf. The Niece was able to get him out and get him breathing and back but he got carted off to the hospital.
Luckily he was OK and all turned out well although we found out he has a slight case of epilepsy.

We had to wire the BIL $2000.00 before they would release the nephew from the hospital. Mexican hospitals are cash and carry..

To top it off 2 days later Cancun got clobbered by Hurricane Wilma.
The vacation from hell.

Back OT- who does BO think he is kidding with his bullshit?

[Pancho Villa]

so instead of refuting the fact in the article you just call the study racist,

whatever, i have lived it, i have competed with companies that hire illegals and i know the impact they have,

Man, "my business failed because of illegal immigrants," that's the ultimate buck-passing.

Also, you want to put the name in quotation marks when you quote, or its just a jumble of text. quote="PanchoVilla" next time.




just for the fact that you are pulling the race card, which this has nothing to do with, here is the report from 2007 from the congressional budget office. concerning the costs of illegal immigration especially as it relates to the individual states

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf

or are they being racist also??????

Sigh...from this link:

"Recent estimates indicate that annual costs for unauthorized immigrants in Colorado were between $217 million and $225 million for education, Medicaid, and corrections. By comparison, taxes collected from unauthorized immigrants at both the state and local levels amounted to an estimated $159 million to $194 million annually."

Hey! Look at that huge gap of between 23-65 million bucks! Isn't that huge?

According to here: http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/#usgs302a

The Colorado state and local governments spend about $43 billion in a year, meaning that the worst-case scenario is an income:expenditure gap of 0.15% of the total budget. On the lower end of the estimates scale we have a mighty 0.05%. I'd daresay if you look at certain neighborhoods in Colorado filled with natural-born Americans you would find a much larger discrepancy.

This is just in dollars in / out, and doesn't take into account the well-documented positive effect on economic growth that additional (cheaper) labor has on an economy. Given that, the net effect of the illegals (through additional business tax revenues due to higher profits) is almost certainly positive.

Also, can I say this? I find it ironic that you get up in arms over a fake $65 million budget gap in illegals, to the point of saying we need to round up and deport (or just shoot) them, yet the level of rhetoric for, say, the $3.2 BILLION dollars state and local governments in Colorado expended on welfare programs in 2009 is decidedly lower. Welfare is pretty much a guaranteed loss; the whole point is that the people don't have the money and so are probably not paying taxes. Should we kill or ship them to siberia?

I don't want to pay for your kid's education, whether you were born in Denver or Chihuahua. I don't want to pay you handouts for not working, or food stamps or subsidized housing - whether you were born in Aurora or Mexico City. So I will agitate on reducing and eliminating THOSE programs, as I don't want illegals OR legals OR natural born citizens to be stealing money from me.

Also, I played "the race card" because I thought you might find it interesting that FAIR and CIS (and NumbersUSA as well) were founded by / heavily associated with a guy who not only has shady ties to white supremacists, but also is an unabashed ENVIRONMENTALIST. You know, the guys who want to tax having kids and subsidize abortions to keep the population level down? That kind of environmentalist. I hope you can see why I don't feel the need to go digging through a document put out by trash like that. At best the data is slanted; at worst, environmentalists have been known to make shit up on occasion.

I guess that only applies to global warming, though.

[streetglideok]

Might be also worth noting, organizations such as the NAACP, and at least hispanic advocacy group is racist as heck. They keep the fire going, because if we all got along, there would be no need for them. I just ignore such groups for that reason. Fact is, I get tired of people thinking I should know spanish to conduct daily business.

[Byte Stryke]

I don't want to pay for your kid's education, whether you were born in Denver or Chihuahua. I don't want to pay you handouts for not working, or food stamps or subsidized housing - whether you were born in Aurora or Mexico City. So I will agitate on reducing and eliminating THOSE programs, as I don't want illegals OR legals OR natural born citizens to be stealing money from me.


I don't know about "Stealing" money, but as the laws of this nation have set aside taxed funds for some social programs, its not an optional thing...
Yeah, I know we dont get to be selective with what we get and what we give and to whom ... I Don't like all of the laws either, but we abide by them instead of claiming they are racist or prejudice and then openly violating them.
Be it Immigration Laws, Tax laws or firearms laws... we follow the laws set forth or we move to have them changed. you want tax laws and social assistance laws changed? Rock on, call your congressman. In the meantime, pony up like the rest of us.

Disregarding them is not an option.

[sniper7]

Pancho, your idea that cheap labor is better for companies is ridiculous. That will bring the country down as a whole. wages need to be livable.

and by livable, I mean I want to be able to afford the present day and future markets. cutting wages while the price of everything else goes up is going to bring everyone down. I don't want to live like they do with multiple families in a home. That is what their low wages allow them to afford. If that is what you want, please, by all means move in to a trailer with them and let me know how it goes for you.

The companies that hire these people put good companies out of work. The companies who are doing it right can't compete. They are the ones doing it right, they are paying their taxes, paying into the system that the illegal employees of the other company are taking advantage of. The illegals get to double dip while everyone else gets fucked. the illegals have enough cash to pay for their necessities and still send money back home. They also cost us more for insurance, make us wait longer lines, create more crime, cluster up the school system. the list goes on yet you want to tell me they are good for the country. YOU are the one living in a fantasy land.

There are already enough people that can't afford their homes, their health, get a job. Oh, and did i mention that those people are here legally? yeah your illegal buddies you love so much are fucking the rest of the citizens who need jobs. and not only them, but those who employ them. Both need to be punished....excessively.

Apparently this isn't as much of an immigration issue as it is a job issue.
Unemployment is at 9.0% right now:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate


number if illegal immigrants in US...guessed of course:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38961638/ns/us_news-immigration_a_nation_divided/t/number-illegal-immigrants-us-declining/

The study puts the number of illegal immigrants down to about where it was in 2005. They still make up roughly 4 percent of the U.S. population.


4%. even if 1% of those illegals were unemployed or had jobs unattainable by present day out of work citizens, the unemployment rate would still go down 3%. 6 % unemployment rate is high, but it wouldn't be horrible given todays current world economy. over 10,000,000 illegals are here in the country and that is a low estimate.

10,000,000 jobs out there. hmmmm...that is the BEST job creation that has probably EVER been available to the US.

[sniper7]

Also, I played "the race card" because I thought you might find it interesting that FAIR and CIS (and NumbersUSA as well) were founded by / heavily associated with a guy who not only has shady ties to white supremacists, but also is an unabashed ENVIRONMENTALIST. You know, the guys who want to tax having kids and subsidize abortions to keep the population level down? That kind of environmentalist. I hope you can see why I don't feel the need to go digging through a document put out by trash like that. At best the data is slanted; at worst, environmentalists have been known to make shit up on occasion.



and the president you voted for is tied to a domestic terrorist, a billionaire socialist and a racist reverend. oh yeah, and he got 98% of the black vote. racism is definitely only one sided and only white people like me are racists.

[rockhound]

[quote=Pancho Villa;353514]Man, "my business failed because of illegal immigrants," that's the ultimate buck-passing.

Also, you want to put the name in quotation marks when you quote, or its just a jumble of text. quote="PanchoVilla" next time.



who the hell ever said my business failed??? I have owned and operated several businesses that employed legal citizens, none of them failed.


I said i competed against companies that hired illegals and the competition is not fair to companies who are above board and to the illegals who are being taken advantage of.


what protection did you ever provide to the guy you picked up on the corner for day labor. what would you have been able to do for him if he was hurt while working for you?

[spyder]

This is just in dollars in / out, and doesn't take into account the well-documented positive effect on economic growth that additional (cheaper) labor has on an economy. Given that, the net effect of the illegals (through additional business tax revenues due to higher profits) is almost certainly positive.

Also, I played "the race card" because...

Here is the first thing I want to bring up pancho, you say additional in your arguements. I want to know what you mean by additional because it sounds to me like whoever your sources are, they think that the needed work out there and the revenue it should produce is apparently "extra". So, wouldn't it be be better if your "additional" illegals were legal citizens that the employer had to pay the normal taxes on and the employee had to pay their taxes also? Any ammount of extra money that finds it's way into the system is good for economic growth, that is just a plain common sence fact, kind of a "duh" thing. So, in that way of thinking, ya your illegal workers are getting extra money into the system, but, so are the bank robbers, pimps, prostutes, slave laborers, drug dealers and everyone else that is making money illegaly. It could all be considered "additional" money making its way into the system. So, should we let that happen also since it is generating revenue, some, scary enough, lots of revenue?

No pancho, your arguement is not a valid one. Illegal labor is still illegal. Ya, it is putting money into the economy, but so would legal laborers in their place, the legal ones that pay taxes would bring more money into the economy also. Not to mention that your illegals are bringing down the economy (yes I know they are still putting money into it like drug dealers and every other illegal act of some sort) by lowering the cost of labor. If you don't understand what I mean, let me tell you. We will say company A uses legal workers that they have to pay all taxes on, and company B uses illegal workers. This is a very simple concept, company B hires on their workers for much less, and doesn't pay any taxes on their workers or anything else that they should. So, when bid time comes around B can underbid A by a lot so if A wants to be competitive, they have to cut costs, which is usually our of the pockets of their workers. So, illegal company B is driving down the cost of work, or labor. Simple enough? I want to know how you think this is some how a good thing when everything is just getting more expensive? I don't want you to go off on some tangent of inflation and what is behind it now, I just want to know how driving down the cost of labor and lowering the laborer's wages is some how a good thing?

The simple truth is that the only person that illegal labor is good for is the owner of the company so they can save a few bucks. As I said pancho, yes I know that those illegal workers are good for the economy because they use their money to buy shit just like everyone else (so do drug dealers, theifs, and hookers) and therefore have a positive effect on the economy, but legal workers put in their place would have a better affect on the economy, oh, and it wouldn't be illegal. People and companies that hire illegals are simply theifs. Not only are they stealing money from the government, but also from the hands of the companies that have to lower their costs to compete with the dishonest people that hire illegals. You seem like a smart person pancho so you tell me, which set up would generate more revenue for the economy, company A that pays taxes with tax paying employees, or company B that hires illegal workers?

Also, I think that you need to drop the racist thing. I think it is kinda stupid to keep saying that as an arguement when everyone is just saying that "illegal" workers need to go. I am sure they have a problem with people who work under the table also, white, black or whatever.

[streetglideok]

The whole illegal immigrant/worker will only be a problem to those who deny it's even a problem, the day they themselves lose their job to an illegal in the name of the company saving a few bucks. In other words, you can say that illegals dont cause such a hardship on the economy all you want, but the day when you lose your job, and have to work for half your old wage, because an illegal can do it for pennies on the dollar, is the day you will want everyone of them kicked out!

[Elhuero]

[ROFL1]




Is that for "foreigners" only or the locals the same ?


it's because of the locals they have that policy. and yes, it's for everybody.

[Pancho Villa]

I don't know about "Stealing" money, but as the laws of this nation have set aside taxed funds for some social programs, its not an optional thing...
Yeah, I know we dont get to be selective with what we get and what we give and to whom ... I Don't like all of the laws either, but we abide by them instead of claiming they are racist or prejudice and then openly violating them.
Be it Immigration Laws, Tax laws or firearms laws... we follow the laws set forth or we move to have them changed. you want tax laws and social assistance laws changed? Rock on, call your congressman. In the meantime, pony up like the rest of us.

Disregarding them is not an option.

I'm not suggesting anyone does. The easiest way (not costing billions of dollars hiring tens or hundreds of thousands more government union workers to suck up way more cash than you'd like to imagine) is to just hand people a green card, tell them not to use welfare and let them be on their merry way.

In addition, schools are funded mostly through property taxes, which you pay if you're not homeless. I won't get into the myriad of ways that income taxes still get paid if you hire even day labor, let alone some guy whose SS# is 1234567890, but it's there as well.


Here is the first thing I want to bring up pancho, you say additional in your arguements. I want to know what you mean by additional because it sounds to me like whoever your sources are, they think that the needed work out there and the revenue it should produce is apparently "extra". So, wouldn't it be be better if your "additional" illegals were legal citizens that the employer had to pay the normal taxes on and the employee had to pay their taxes also?

Well, there's a misconception here, that I touched on very briefly before, about taxes.

Pre-check days (and still today in states that do not mandate the use of E-Verify - by the way, thanks for another layer of paperwork and checks, GOP, its nice to know that you're drafting employers to be part of ICE when everyone's already strapped,) a guy could roll in with a fake SS number - jumble of numbers that corresponded to no one - and everything would be koshure on the tax-thing.

The reason is pretty simple, that being that most businesses who have regular employees (as opposed to day labor) are fearful of an IRS audit, and having your wages be entirely in cash is asking for a big, fat audit. And, since you and I and everyone with two braincells to rub together knows that the IRS doesn't even know how to do taxes, odds are an audit of any small-to-medium sized business is going to find "mistakes" and cost the company a ton of money - possibly putting it out of business.

Day labor is a bit different, but as you don't have legit writeoffs for it, the money generally is taxed at the corporate tax rate, which is effectively higher (about 33%) than what low-skilled labor gets taxed at, since they get rebates.

However, you're right; my ideal solution isn't a bunch of illegal immigrants running around, its a bunch of guys with green cards running around. But I think the first step to that is recognizing that the law they violated is at best a futile attempt to defy the basic laws of economics, at worst a recipe (if strictly enforced) for another recession.

As far as your comparisons - seriously, do you not see any difference from Jose with a fake SS number shoveling mortar at a construction site every day and a bank robber? One guy is trying to make a living without actually using force on anyone else, the other guy sticks a gun in your craw and steals money.


We will say company A uses legal workers that they have to pay all taxes on, and company B uses illegal workers. This is a very simple concept, company B hires on their workers for much less, and doesn't pay any taxes on their workers or anything else that they should. So, when bid time comes around B can underbid A by a lot so if A wants to be competitive, they have to cut costs, which is usually our of the pockets of their workers. So, illegal company B is driving down the cost of work, or labor. Simple enough? I want to know how you think this is some how a good thing when everything is just getting more expensive? I don't want you to go off on some tangent of inflation and what is behind it now, I just want to know how driving down the cost of labor and lowering the laborer's wages is some how a good thing?

Two things: as I outlined above, taxes get paid on illegals as well. I always see this example but I lived in Dallas and worked with many outfits that were 60-90% hispanic, with some large % of those probably illegal, and none of those outfits paid them in cash at the end of the day; everything was a check with the usual forms filled out at the office.

The exception is companies who used day labor, but, they paid white guys in cash as well. So the actual economic advantage for a company that uses immigrant labor isn't skipping out on taxes (which isn't possible, long-term; the IRS watches companies a lot more strictly than individuals) but the actual, real decreased labor costs.

Let me show you the bigger picture, economically.

Let's say you own a business, and the cost of labor goes down due to an influx of immigrants. On average, 70% of your costs are paying your guys - and that goes down. What does that mean? It means you can sell the stuff you are making for cheaper. While wages go down, the amount of whatever it is you are producing those dollars can buy goes up. This benefits everyone. You make more money and the people who want your stuff can afford more of it, and people who previously couldn't afford whatever it is you're selling can. This means more profits in your pockets, more stuff for your customers and more jobs for your employees.

The economy isn't this closed system where if wages go down, purchasing power also goes down. In a free market, if wages go down, the purchasing power of those wages go up significantly. It also frees up manpower by redirecting the smartest, ambitious guys to higher-skilled industries that will then pay more than the job whose wages just went down.

So, you get the lower-skilled immigrants getting into those jobs and driving wages down, but this stimulates the economy more generally in the short term (allowing more people to afford the now cheaper goods, leading to business expansion and more jobs / goods and services produced) and in the long-run by putting in economic incentives to get into higher-paying jobs through better training or education. In the end, you get cheaper stuff like food and basic services, and more people doing other stuff - like Tech Companies or what have you. In the long run, your $8/hr laborer job ends up buying you more (both in the basic stuff, like food and more luxury goods, that also get cheaper as more people put their efforts into them) than your $12/hr laborer job did before the immigrants came in.

Anyway, the rest of your post is more of the same, but I hope that outlines the basic economics of the situation.

People should learn economics. It gives you a different perspective, and helps guard you against the frankly false arguments put forth by those against a drastic expansion of legal immigration.

Frankly, the economic arguments against immigration are Marxist; closed economic system, new laborers taking a "piece of the pie" from native-born laborers, etc. It's all stuff you'd be very familiar with if you've read your Marx. Its just as false when applied to immigrants as when its applied to the economy more generally.

An interesting side-effect of accepting these arguments is that those who have really thought it through (ie John Tanton) are also big supporters of population control. If a new immigrant drives wages down, newborn babies do, too; people like Tanton and others *also* argue for subsidized abortions and taxes on people who have "too many" babies, with the goal of having a perfectly stable population. This is monstrous, of course - but it's also the consequence of the idea that additional (ie cheaper) labor is a bad thing.

[Byte Stryke]

I'm not suggesting anyone does. The easiest way (not costing billions of dollars hiring tens or hundreds of thousands more government union workers to suck up way more cash than you'd like to imagine) is to just hand people a green card, tell them not to use welfare and let them be on their merry way.


Yeah, Handing out greencards didn't work the last time either,

and what about people like me that spent MONTHS at the INS and Embassy, spent thousands getting a green card...

you rebating that?

I take cash.

[spyder]

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit, right?


However, you're right; my ideal solution isn't a bunch of illegal immigrants running around, its a bunch of guys with green cards running around. This right here is the only line that should have been written.

As far as your comparisons - seriously, do you not see any difference from Jose with a fake SS number shoveling mortar at a construction site every day and a bank robber? No actually, you can pretty much put the two together pretty well. One forcefully steals your money at gun point, the other just goes about taking money out of hard working people's hands by lowering the wages. I will say however there is a big difference between the two, the robber probably knows english.

Let me show you the bigger picture, economically.

People should learn economics. It gives you a different perspective, and helps guard you against the frankly false arguments put forth by those against a drastic expansion of legal immigration.

An interesting side-effect of accepting these arguments is that those who have really thought it through (ie John Tanton) are also big supporters of population control. If a new immigrant drives wages down, newborn babies do, too; people like Tanton and others *also* argue for subsidized abortions and taxes on people who have "too many" babies, with the goal of having a perfectly stable population. This is monstrous, of course - but it's also the consequence of the idea that additional (ie cheaper) labor is a bad thing.
You can preach all you want pancho, site all of the economic laws that you feel, but will still be wrong. Illegals have driven down the wages, this isn't some fictional story, this is real life, things that are taking place in the world now and not simple sentences in a book. The fact that even with this the price of everything has gone up is also a fact, again, nonfiction. I wish everything I read was correct too, but unfortunately when some things we hear or read about actually play out, the outcome isn't what we thought it should be. So in the end what I am saying is yes, illegals are theifs and are no different than robber's, and illegals have driven down the wages while the prices of everything still go up.

Oh and population control? Really? I mean eventually we are going to run out of space on this planet (simple math)...... eh never mind.

[rocktot]

The first time around, it was all BS, they had a Dem government, they 'could have done it', but they didnt. Big business, I think, wants CHEAP labor, so they will talk around it, but I 'dont think' they will pull the trigger because business, big and small, would have to pony up for:Taxes, SSI, Health Insurance, etc, so the $10 dollar an hour illegal goes to $20 dolla an hour, and that is NOT GOOD BUSINESS. They want them as illlegal slave labor, IMO, I think, and so Amnesty, on a broad scale, may be unlikley. They are getting their demographic change in 20 years with the anchors anyway, so they will have complete NWO, UN control by letting things just as they are, without angering the public. Slow, slow, slow death, so you can't see it or feel it. By by first, second, third, fourth amendments....bye bye..[BooHoo]

[streetglideok]

One more reason to expel the illegals, when they work, they usually arent paying taxes right? Why would they when the employer is paying them under the table? Where does that money go? Back to their former country, which further dillutes our currency.

[sniper7]

pancho I implore you to come to brighton and take a job working as an illegal for a month. If things go well for you then you should give one of them your SS#, credit cards and whatever else you want to give them.

that way your idea of giving all of them green cards and a quick way to citizenship hits you directly on a personal level.

once your experiment is over please come back and let us know what you think.

[rocktot]

How about closing the southern border, and allowing thousands of high skilled White Europeans to come in, my ancestros? By the TENS OF MILLIONS?

Would that get a big ok from Poncho? [ROFL1]
Yes, all those people who would actually BUILD UP the economy, instead of speaking a FOREIGN LANGUAGE, and upping the rapes, murders, and DUI's....and destroying the school system, instead of contributing to it? Just (the facts) my humble opinion, (based on the facts)...

Yea, lets have lots of White European Immigration, lets rebuild America, not turn it into a crapper.
Dang, couldn't hold it in folks...

[NoEvil]

[Jumpstart]

How about closing the southern border, and allowing thousands of high skilled White Europeans to come in, my ancestros? By the TENS OF MILLIONS?

Would that get a big ok from Poncho? [ROFL1]
Yes, all those people who would actually BUILD UP the economy, instead of speaking a FOREIGN LANGUAGE, and upping the rapes, murders, and DUI's....and destroying the school system, instead of contributing to it? Just (the facts) my humble opinion, (based on the facts)...

Yea, lets have lots of White European Immigration, lets rebuild America, not turn it into a crapper.
Dang, couldn't hold it in folks...

[NoEvil]
I concur.