Hear someone coming into your house, grab your rifle, get shot 71 times - CLOSED

[Mobat555]

Tucson SWAT team kills ex-Marine in his home front of wife and kids, then wait until he is dead before calling an ambulance. Police fire 71 shots during the raid, Marine fires 0. (azstarnet.com)l (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_d7d979d4-f4fb-5603-af76-0bef206f8301.html)

[Lochinver]

Based on just what is in the story so far. Certainly looks very bad for the police.

[Zundfolge]

That reminds me ... need to order that case of SS109

[Pancho Villa]

I'm sure the SWAT team was very clear in announcing themselves and we'll find out that this guy was really a big time drug dealer.

[ROFL1]

Nope. Couldn't keep a straight face.

[streetglideok]

Interesting how nothing is being released as to what the warrant was for. Smells of cover up to me.

[bowhunter]

Nice, very nice!!! I hope they all get theirs [M2]No knock, I doubt it!

[Gcompact30]

Well lets wait and see what comes out of the investigation before making assumptions I guess. But dam 71 times, someone still have some explaining to do.... I bet what occurred one guy saw the rifle and shot, then everyone else thought they were being shot at and fired all thereafter. Dam that sucks. Mistakes do happen, all they have to do is tell the truth. I just hope they had the right house for the SEARCH WARRANT, now if they had the wrong house their FUC***, and will paying out some dollars and lots of dollars.

[SA Friday]

Lot of info missing in this story to make a judgement either way.

[bowhunter]

Lot of info missing in this story to make a judgement either way.

6 days after shooting the guy 71 times in front of his family and they still "havent released" information? Thats jacked up. If they found anything they would have presented it to show they were in the right.

[rockhound]

need more info

[Buzzkill69]

Interesting how nothing is being released as to what the warrant was for. Smells of cover up to me.

Yes it does. [Mad]

[Zundfolge]

I just hope they had the right house for the SEARCH WARRANT, now if they had the wrong house their FUC***...

I don't care if they have all their paperwork in order and they were at the right house and he has 1000lb of pot in his basement, there is just ZERO justification for SWAT teams conducting no-knock raids in the dark of night anywhere in the United States of America. Period.

SWAT teams should be relegated to hostage rescue and active shooter situations and that's it and NEVER should American police be conducting no-knock raids unless absolutely necessary to save lives.

[Monky]

Three sides to every story.. His side.. cop side.. and truth..

If they royally screwed the pooch, then yes.. they are screwed monetarily.

Even if they did not screw up and he did shoot first, the refusal of medical attention... Really? Were they getting their stories together

[clublights]

I don't care if they have all their paperwork in order and they were at the right house and he has 1000lb of pot in his basement, there is just ZERO justification for SWAT teams conducting no-knock raids in the dark of night anywhere in the United States of America. Period.

SWAT teams should be relegated to hostage rescue and active shooter situations and that's it and NEVER should American police be conducting no-knock raids unless absolutely necessary to save lives.

Someone didn't read the article.............

The police said it was NOT a no knock.......... it was also 9am.

[UberTong]

Sad...makes me wonder what kind of intel cops do to kick a marine's door down with a wife and kids inside. Reminds me of the video someone poste a while back where the cops shot the dogs in front of the kids.

[patrick0685]

Three sides to every story.. His side.. cop side.. and truth..

If they royally screwed the pooch, then yes.. they are screwed monetarily.

Even if they did not screw up and he did shoot first, the refusal of medical attention... Really? Were they getting their stories together

only two sides to this one...cops side and the truth

[UberTong]

Just read it again, smells like a hit to me. I don't know for sure, never been at a cops gunpoint...but don't they usually instruct someone to drop a weapon? And 71 rounds? Nothing fired from the homeowner? Smells crooked.

[Zundfolge]

Someone didn't read the article.............

The police said it was NOT a no knock.......... it was also 9am.

I read the article ... I don't believe them when they said it was NOT a no-knock.

And muttering "police" while busting down the door with a battering ram is still close enough to a no-knock.

[Ed_S]

I'm no liberal but 71 rounds is a little excessive! Guess they're not into precision shooting?

In the army we'd be reamed for 71 rounds during CQB!

I hate to jump to conclusions but the whole story sounds a little suspect?

[trlcavscout]

Sounds like one of the ninjas got scared when they kicked the door and piddled down his leg causing an ND which then cost the tax payers a lot of ammo. Thats messed up, even if he did have 200lbs of pot (which they are usually pretty quick to announce) thats no reason to light him up like that!

[TEAMRICO]

I dont need any other information other then what local officials and the Gov. determine I need.
We all know us veterans are members of active terrorist cells. Hell I must truly hate my country to serve it for well over 21 years! I think I will go to the basement right now to plot something!
My latest plot will be.....whats for dinner?

This, in our own country?
It can only get better now that the citizen is now the enemy of the Gov. right?
When can I download "Happy Days Are Here Again" for my soon to be Gov. tracked iPhone.....or is it already?
[Tooth]

[Mtn.man]

Sounds fishy.

[SA Friday]

6 days after shooting the guy 71 times in front of his family and they still "havent released" information? Thats jacked up. If they found anything they would have presented it to show they were in the right.
Sorry, but that's just not true. I was involved in multiple cases that ended up in the media where if we released information it would have clearly showed the media's initial stories were not only incorrect, but bordered on complete fabrication. There is more than one reason to not release information to the public.

This story has clear indications of not enough fact and too much speculation at this point. The police may very well have severely screwed up, then again, they might not of either. There simply isn't enough information to make an informed decision as to the truth of the matter. This is obviously a "if it bleeds, it leads" story intended to incite more emotion than critical thinking at this point. It's a story to sell papers, not inform.

[SideShow Bob]

Someone didn't read the article.............

The police said it was NOT a no knock.......... it was also 9am.

The article also said he had gone to bed after working the night shift plus overtime. So it was the middle of the night for him !

[SA Friday]

The article also said he had gone to bed after working the night shift plus overtime. So it was the middle of the night for him !
...and this has nothing to do with the laws concerning no-knocks or night-time warrants.

[TFOGGER]

Missing a lot of info:

71 rounds fired, all by police, how many hit, and what hazard did the misses present?

Why in the HELL was SWAT serving a search warrant in a residential neighborhood, with his wife and kid in the house?

You know that at least one of the SWAT officers was wired for video and sound (SOP these days). If this was a clean shoot, why aren't they parading the video around?

What was the basis for the warrant, and what were the fruits of the search?

Why was medical aid withheld for more than 40 minutes? Isn't it SOP to have an ambulance/paramedics standing by on a dynamic entry, in the event that one of the COPS gets shot?

Not knowing what the intel on which the warrant was based, I can't make a judgement about the validity of the tactics, but it sure sounds like they screwed the pooch in terms of preparation. If the SWAT team was reasonable to serve this warrant, then it makes sense to me that they would have had EMS on scene before making entry.

[Mtn.man]

Did you catch the vics name?

Sounds like a case of mistaken id, wrong house, bad intel, scared cop, etc.

[275RLTW]

Not enough information to make a judgement either way.


Missing a lot of info:


Why in the HELL was SWAT serving a search warrant in a residential neighborhood, with his wife and kid in the house? Based upon Pima County's Risk Assessment Matrix

You know that at least one of the SWAT officers was wired for video and sound (SOP these days). If this was a clean shoot, why aren't they parading the video around? Is it THEIR (Pima County's) SOP? Not all agencies have funds for that. Wasn't Pima County asking for funds last year?

What was the basis for the warrant, and what were the fruits of the search? Basis stated in article (narco investigation)

Why was medical aid withheld for more than 40 minutes? Isn't it SOP to have an ambulance/paramedics standing by on a dynamic entry, in the event that one of the COPS gets shot? Medics don't enter until the entire house is cleared.... it can take 5 guys an hour to clear a house, especially one guy to deal with each person in the house (even to watch the injured owner).


Not knowing what the intel on which the warrant was based, I can't make a judgement about the validity of the tactics, but it sure sounds like they screwed the pooch in terms of preparation. If the SWAT team was reasonable to serve this warrant, then it makes sense to me that they would have had EMS on scene before making entry.

[2008f450]

Smells bad from here.IF they found anything they would have dragged it out and made a huge thing about it. I think they made assumtions based on the mans work habits or name.

[KevDen2005]

Lot of info missing in this story to make a judgement either way.


Agreed, and I would say 6 days to try and figure out what really happened/went wrong is not enough time, so far. I would definitely say the city is going to be very careful on how they approach this.

I am very curious as to the outcome.

[Tor Larson]

Cops said victim said "I've got something for you" before they ventilated him-sounds a bit, fake.

Don't care how much money they pay out for damages...those officers need to be punished if they fucked up- serve time, lose pensions, etc. Guy died, money won't bring him back. If they didn't screw the pooch, better look into their SOP. That's a lot of rounds. Most hits I ever saw on a pt. the cops took out and I got to work on-4. Ouch.

[KevDen2005]

Sounds like one of the ninjas got scared when they kicked the door and piddled down his leg causing an ND which then cost the tax payers a lot of ammo. Thats messed up, even if he did have 200lbs of pot (which they are usually pretty quick to announce) thats no reason to light him up like that!


Well that's a quick assumption.

Take off the tin foil hats for a second people. Jesus. They may have messed up and I am not going to back them if they did, but I know that none of us were there to know what happened. Stop watching so many movies, when the raid is supposed to be announced I am sure that it was.

[JoeT]

At least the cops made it home safely [Pot]

[trlcavscout]

Well that's a quick assumption.

Take off the tin foil hats for a second people. Jesus. They may have messed up and I am not going to back them if they did, but I know that none of us were there to know what happened. Stop watching so many movies, when the raid is supposed to be announced I am sure that it was.

Sorry, I meant Way to go coppers it took 10 of you and 71 bullets to kill a guy that never fired on you [Beer] Maybe they were all ex black water?

[Guylee]

Looks like Tucson SWAT was trying to get a little Bin Laden mission of their own.

[KevDen2005]

Sorry, I meant Way to go coppers it took 10 of you and 71 bullets to kill a guy that never fired on you [Beer] Maybe they were all ex black water?

Well I wasn't there, I am not defending those officers. On the other hand I am not going to fry them before I know the entire story. I know everyone thinks that because they are cops that there will be a big cover-up. I would definitely have to disagree and I think the other cops on here would agree that when you mess up in this job then you will pay the price and many times a completely unfair price.

I am not even going to go into detail about comments like them wetting themselves are most likely not accurate, especially for SWAT teams from places like Tuscon.

[BushMasterBoy]

Sounds kinda like this case...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

[Zundfolge]

Don't care how much money they pay out for damages...those officers need to be punished if they fucked up- serve time, lose pensions, etc. Guy died, money won't bring him back. If they didn't screw the pooch, better look into their SOP. That's a lot of rounds. Most hits I ever saw on a pt. the cops took out and I got to work on-4. Ouch.

The primary problem isn't the officers (hell, they buy into the notion that they're all superheroes defending society from the bad guys too ... which sometimes they actually are) the problem is with the policies that allow for this Rambo type crap in the first place.

Again, unless there are lives in danger, hostages or an active shooter there is simply no place for SWAT in most of police work. If you think a guy is that dangerous, you follow him and take him down when he's away from his "fortress" and "arsenal" you don't run in guns blazing like you're bloody SEAL Team 6.

While this over use of SWAT doesn't violate the letter of Posse Comitatus, it clearly violates the spirit (at least the way its used today).

[SA Friday]

While this over use of SWAT doesn't violate the letter of Posse Comitatus, it clearly violates the spirit (at least the way its used today).

What?

Posse Comitatus:
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

There is no letter or spirit within this law concerning accredited law enforcement officers conducting law enforcement activities, period. This law is in it's entirety concerning the use of military personnel to enforce civilian law. The inference that the equipment or tactics they use constitutes the equivalence of military force is a very dangerous position to take. It directly relates back to controlling firearms or gear based on it's military affiliation.

Basically, you just made the same arguement that all the anti's make about black guns, only you made it in relation to LE instead of civilians. Bravo.

[KevDen2005]

The primary problem isn't the officers (hell, they buy into the notion that they're all superheroes defending society from the bad guys too ... which sometimes they actually are) the problem is with the policies that allow for this Rambo type crap in the first place.

Again, unless there are lives in danger, hostages or an active shooter there is simply no place for SWAT in most of police work. If you think a guy is that dangerous, you follow him and take him down when he's away from his "fortress" and "arsenal" you don't run in guns blazing like you're bloody SEAL Team 6.

While this over use of SWAT doesn't violate the letter of Posse Comitatus, it clearly violates the spirit (at least the way its used today).


You really can't be serious with the "overuse of SWAT." Only two agencies in this state have a full time SWAT team, meaning that in situations where SWAT is needed they have to be called up, which usually means that they aren't going to handle whatever issue is happening, especially if it is rapidly evolving.

Sometimes the person is not leaving their "fortress" so he has to be arrested in his house. Most of these decisions are not fly be the seat of your pants style decisions. Almost all the cases where SWAT is used in my area, several days of planning goes into it.

Since I know lots of cops I will go ahead and destroy your opinion that they all think they are heroes. The majority are there to do their job during their work day and go home in one piece. There are a few, correct, but the majority are just trying to get through the work day with crappy bosses like the rest of the world.

And there are ALWAYS lives in danger...the second everyone stops thinking that way the more innocent people get hurt (Again, I am not defending the original SWAT raid that this topic started on, I don't know enough about it, I am speaking generally).

[KevDen2005]

What?

Posse Comitatus:
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

There is no letter or spirit within this law concerning accredited law enforcement officers conducting law enforcement activities, period. This law is in it's entirety concerning the use of military personnel to enforce civilian law. The inference that the equipment or tactics they use constitutes the equivalence of military force is a very dangerous position to take. It directly relates back to controlling firearms or gear based on it's military affiliation.

Basically, you just made the same arguement that all the anti's make about black guns, only you made it in relation to LE instead of civilians. Bravo.

Thank you, totally forgot to mention this one.

[Elhuero]

no comment

[KevDen2005]

Sounds kinda like this case...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes


I don't know about that:

That was in England, in a country with no written Constitution and where guns are outlawed (practically).

Not to mention that your source is Wikipedia and it was in a public place. Lot's of witness accounts to tell what did or did not happen.

The story we are talking about hasn't even really been released yet.

[Elhuero]

hehe somebody go post this in coptalk [ROFL2]

[clublights]

The article also said he had gone to bed after working the night shift plus overtime. So it was the middle of the night for him !

And 9am is primetime for my sleep pattern too ... but I still don't call it middle of the night.

I was more just making a point

as for it being 71 rounds...

I have a feeling the homeowner accidentally swept the muzzle on one cop and he freaked and fired... ( not saying in the wrong persay... if I was knockin down doors and someone had an AR and pointed it in my general direction .. I'd probably light em up too ) the other officers fired since that seems to happen often in these situations.. one guy fires and the rest open up too ....

Also if my understanding on how these ops work ... The swat team just knocks on the door they are told too.. some one else picked the wrong door I'm willing to bet.

If the story had been how these Officers lit up a drug king pin we would all be lining up to buy them a beer.

Someone screwed the pooch and it probably wasn't just the men who pulled the triggers.

[Zundfolge]

The inference that the equipment or tactics they use constitutes the equivalence of military force is a very dangerous position to take. It directly relates back to controlling firearms or gear based on it's military affiliation.

No it doesn't.

The purpose and spirit of Posse Comitatus is prevent the military from also becoming the police like it is in so many less than free countries. So yes, using military equipment and tactics does violate the spirit of Posse Comitatus.

[KevDen2005]

No it doesn't.

The purpose and spirit of Posse Comitatus is prevent the military from also becoming the police like it is in so many less than free countries. So yes, using military equipment and tactics does violate the spirit of Posse Comitatus.


Can you cite something, other than your opinion, that agrees with that?

[clublights]

No it doesn't.

The purpose and spirit of Posse Comitatus is prevent the military from also becoming the police like it is in so many less than free countries. So yes, using military equipment and tactics does violate the spirit of Posse Comitatus.

To Back up SA on this............

What defines military Equipment and Tactics in use by police in YOUR opinion?

[Hoser]

Lots of you guys must have either been there, seen all the evidence in the matter or have been a Law Enforcement Officer.

[Elhuero]

Can you cite something, other than your opinion, that agrees with that?


LOL <----- that's me laughing out loud. at your comment.

[KevDen2005]

LOL <----- that's me laughing out loud. at your comment.


I am glad I could lighten the mood. I am just saying I am more willing to see your side if you can cite a legitimate source that agrees with that (in almost all cases, not just this one).

[Zundfolge]

Can you cite something, other than your opinion, that agrees with that?

Any discussion of the spirit of the law is purely an exercise in opinion. So I guess in your eyes unless I'm a cop my opinion is not legitimate and I should shut up and be a good prole and just do what I'm told by my superiors. And I'm sure a published author and Cato fellow like Radley Balko (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476) doesn't count.

This is one of those discussions that is as pointless as debates on drug legalization. Too many in government and law enforcement see the constitution as an impediment and until that changes the debate is not going to go anywhere.

As for what constitutes military tactics and equipment I'd say full auto, flashbangs, dynamic entries, APCs ... these are things that cross the line.

Again, I still think SWAT (which stands for Special Weapons And Tactics for those that have forgot or didn't know) still has a limited role in civilian law enforcement. And those are hostage situations, active shooter situations or situations where quick decisive action are necessary to save lives that are in immediate danger (not for the sake of protecting evidence or keeping criminals from getting away).

[KevDen2005]

Any discussion of the spirit of the law is purely an exercise in opinion. So I guess in your eyes unless I'm a cop my opinion is not legitimate and I should shut up and be a good prole and just do what I'm told by my superiors.

This is one of those discussions that is as pointless as debates on drug legalization. Too many in government and law enforcement see the constitution as an impediment and until that changes the debate is not going to go anywhere.

As for what constitutes military tactics and equipment I'd say full auto, flashbangs, dynamic entries, APCs ... these are things that cross the line.

Again, I still think SWAT (which stands for Special Weapons And Tactics for those that have forgot or didn't know) still has a limited role in civilian law enforcement. And those are hostage situations, active shooter situations or situations where quick decisive action are necessary to save lives that are in immediate danger (not for the sake of protecting evidence or keeping criminals from getting away).


Well now that you have admitted to knowing nothing there is no point in talking about it further. Good job.

[SA Friday]

No it doesn't.

The purpose and spirit of Posse Comitatus is prevent the military from also becoming the police like it is in so many less than free countries. So yes, using military equipment and tactics does violate the spirit of Posse Comitatus.

Posse Comitatus prevents the military from enforcing civilian law. You are enferring more intent than is stated in the law.

Give me one credible reference to equipment and tactics being a mitigated factor of defining military vs LE by any case law or law currently in existence in this country, please. Having dealt with Posse Comitatus intimately while a USAF Federal Agent for 11 years and taking over a dozen legal classes for my academy, criminal justice degree, and while working on my BS in criminalistics, I'm fairly confident you will not find anything to support this stance in the slightest.

Posse Comitatus doesn't prevent the government from using the military from becoming police like. In 1957 Eisenhower sent Federal troops to Little Rock, AR to enforce the Brown ruling and intrigrate the schools. Additionally, the President can suspend Posse Comitatus in it's entirety "to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it—(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law ...” (http://supreme.justia.com/constitution/article-2/40-military-power-in-law-enforcement.html)

So, unless you have more than your own opinion on the matter, no.

[BigMat]

This story is riddled with crap-

Resume-
I used to work with several medics on P.C. SWAT who worked in one of the fire houses I was stationed at a lot- P.C.S.O. pulled their medics from Northwest fire outside of Tucson, at least they did 2 years ago and I haven't heard this has changed..

If they with held care, it means they ran without their medics, which means the raid went down without much planning. Drexel heights is a long way from town, it would not suprise me at all if proper EMS response was in the neighborhood of half hour, even code three. The area shares its boxes with a over-55 town that eats up the ambulances.


As to you guys getting heated about this-
The anti-cops guys aren't pissed at the cops (as best as I can tell) they are pissed at the policies. If you are from DC you can be pissed and defensive, if you are a street cop, they are more worried about you, and your family than you may think. No-knock type raids don't just put unlucky home owners at risk, cops get shot too. Other end of this is the $$$$, its not like the settlement for this is coming from the cops, its coming from the tax payers, I don't want my money paying for F*$k ups, I want it fixing roads and building schools.

As to the legality, Posse Comitatus does indeed prevent the military from acting on US soil as police. That said, turning peace officers into swat cops, really pushes this. The "black rifle" comparison falls flat. A better gun based comparison to laws would be the ATFs rules on intent. Machine Guns are illegal, that doesn't mean you can make a man-portable Gatling gun and be GTG. Creating SWAT teams to conduct raids of this type, gives the impression that the government had its power restrained, and subsequently found a loop hole to get around it. This is what was meant by "spirit of the law." Illegal, no, ethical, probably not. I agree, that in part this does relate back to military type gear being limited, as the military uses "military type gear." That was part of the purpose of this law. Claiming this law is like an assault weapon law fails as the constitution protects civilian "militias," very much military type organizations, while the law limits government "military" forces acting on US soil. This in no way is a statement made to say "cops should be able to protect themselves." Not true, I say we gun the hell out of cops, but they have to keep it outside unless hostages/risk of life/etc., not a search warrant for drugs on bad intel.
-there is a saying around fire houses "nothing for nothing, everything for everything." it means if a house is burning to the ground with no one in it, you let it burn and pour water from the outside, nothing to save, don't risk anything. If there are people inside, you go in and get them out, everything risked for the chance to save someone. Seems like this applies here too.

Why people are pissed- This forum is made up of people tired of Government control, this spreads beyond left leaning policies such as health care and high taxes, sometimes government control comes in the form of police power. Frankly, if you are talking to a true right leaning person, they will want less government, in all its forms. Many on here may see a botched drug raid as more of our money (that we don't have) poured into a worthless war on drugs that doesn't need to exist to begin with. I could go on with "fairness" but its been said already, the LEOs know the punishment will probably take the form of money, but the public see's this as murder, at best aggravated manslaughter, both crimes that get people jail time, and if a country is going to follow the rule of law, no man can be above it.


As to the guys pissed at cops, try to be clear, its easy to generalize, but if I was to get on here and start ranting about "pilots" being worthless, power hungry, jerks, because I was treated poorly by one, just gets the rest pissed. The issue isn't cops, even the cops on PCSO's SWAT team, its the policies that direct them, and that, is our responsibilty, as the voting public. We made it with the constant War on Crime, this is our monster. Someone smarter than me said something about safety costing us liberty years ago, this is just another manifestation of it.



Please don't jump to the "you aren't a cop you don't understand" as if you do, I expect you to jump to protect the POTUS the next time someone complains, as I doubt you have had that job. Not to be rude, but I have heard it before.



Thank you for your service, honestly, you do a valuable job that our country needs. We are just a hard country to please, thankfully.

[Elhuero]

I am glad I could lighten the mood. I am just saying I am more willing to see your side if you can cite a legitimate source that agrees with that (in almost all cases, not just this one).

how about popular mechanics?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/4203345

an article from fox news written by a policy analyst for the CATO institute?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193652,00.html


I googled swat and army rangers and found these photos.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/elhuero/rangers-scar.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/elhuero/swat-team-at-abraxas_145001.jpg


they don't look alike at all!

your comment made me laugh because you're a LEO, trying to argue that the idea that the militarization of police pushes the boundaries of posse comitatus is just some silly opinion that has no basis.
that's like nambla arguing that they should be able to sponsor a boy scout troop. after all, they're a non profit that does community service, right?

swat teams serve knock warrants at 9am because they have to do something to justify their budget.

and like I've said.... would that I could go to the lengths police do to make myself feel safe.

now, it is true that not all the facts are known.

but if it comes out that the officers really screwed he pooch, what really is going to happen to them? not a whole heckofa lot.

I don't hate cops and I'm not passing judgment on this case.

all I'm saying is when they do foxtrot the entire situation the "well, they're just normal people like anyone else" line gets used, and that's the end of it.

they should be held to a higher standard.

[Zundfolge]

The anti-cops guys aren't pissed at the cops (as best as I can tell) they are pissed at the policies.

That pretty much sums up my position ... although sometimes the verve with which many in law enforcement jump to defend these policies really makes me wonder how many cops wouldn't just love to have the right of Kiri Sute Gomen.

As for the spirit of Posse Comitatus, it was passed during reconstruction when Union Army troops occupied the south in a manner that was much too reminiscent of the Red Coats prior to the revolution. I don't believe that it's too much of a stretch to say that the spirit of Posse Comitatus is in opposition to a paramilitary police force in the United States. Especially when you look at most of the rights enumerated in the bill of rights regarding citizen interaction with agents of the state, they were all written in the same spirit.

[bryjcom]

I think the main cause of all the bad sentiment of cops is the continued militarization of the police forces of this country.

Like the photos that Elhuero posted, those swat officers look, train, and act like military While that may not violate Posse Comitatus I think it violates the "spirit" of the law and the idea of a free country.

[Buzzkill69]

Someone didn't read the article.............

The police said it was NOT a no knock.......... it was also 9am.

But the wife didn't hear a knock! The cops dragging there feet on giving answers does not look good IMO.

Also, I have to agree with Elhuero here "all I'm saying is when they do foxtrot the entire situation the "well, they're just normal people like anyone else" line gets used, and that's the end of it."

That gets used way to much IMO.

[BigMat]

Just had a thought- sort of related-

If I was a city official, able to make and or change policy, or a cop able to modify tactics. Things like this would get me worried-

Inner city poor- think cops are racist and don't like cops
Big city left leaning types - think cops are brutal and don't like cops
country types, right leaning - dont trust cops, and dont like their bosses
young peope - think cops exist to give tickets and collect money, not wild about cops.
AARP types - like cops fine, but I would be worried if this raid was a WW2 vet with an M1 instead of a Gulf War vet with an AR. They stick together!

Who does this leave that really feels positive about cops? If that was private sector situation, I would be very worried about the continuation of my functioning as a business, as its not, I would be very worried about a very serious shift. I know in Tucson they were talking about firing a bunch of fire fighters and traffic cops, didn't seem to be a lot of tears shed for the cops, where as the firefighters had a huge organization thrown together.

May be time for a change, even if you don't want to. Probably want someone in your corner when funding cuts come rolling down. For example, I very much doubt police pensions would be safe these days if it was put to a vote.

[kidicarus13]

I never imagined I would lose him like that, he was badly injured but I never thought he could be killed by police after he served his country," Vanessa Guerena said.

What is that supposed to mean?! I guess if you serve you get a free pass to do whatever you want.

[scratchy]

Good posts BigMat. With regard to the original post, not enough info yet to make any kind of call but from here, it doesn't look good.

[clublights]

they don't look alike at all!



And these look-a-like too ...

http://www.del-ton.com/v/vspfiles/photos/RA2M16-0-2.gif

http://www.colt.com/mil/images/M4.jpg

One is from Colt's military site

One is from Del-ton's rifle sales site...

( you can look at the URL's for the pics to confirm)

One is just like a rifle I own .. and I assume you own one similar too ...

The other is not available for general sales.. ( yeah yeah Title II Or is it IV either way you get my point)

So since my Rifle LOOKS like a military M4 I should not have it ?

Slippery slippery slope....

[hip55]

This could happen to any member here or any citizen rightfully protecting his home from unknown intruders kicking in their door. All it takes is bad intel and this can happen.

One of these days a homeowner will defend himself and it'll be very ugly for everyone involved.

Invest in a closed loop video security system folks....

[Elhuero]

And these look-a-like too ...

http://www.del-ton.com/v/vspfiles/photos/RA2M16-0-2.gif

http://www.colt.com/mil/images/M4.jpg

One is from Colt's military site

One is from Del-ton's rifle sales site...

( you can look at the URL's for the pics to confirm)

One is just like a rifle I own .. and I assume you own one similar too ...

The other is not available for general sales.. ( yeah yeah Title II Or is it IV either way you get my point)

So since my Rifle LOOKS like a military M4 I should not have it ?

Slippery slippery slope....

no, we should be able to easily obtain and use any firearms the police do.

full auto laws should be rescinded.

[BigMat]

....

The gun isn't the point, its the whole picture that gets to people! Cops can run around with M2s on their squad cars, go for it, that may actually do a lot to keep this country safer! But when they do raids, carry .mil type rankings, .mil/LEO training, SWAT tactics for non-life threatening situaitons, etc. then people get nervious, especially when the wrong guy gets perforated, more times than once.

The black rifles alone are Constitutionally protected, militia organizations are Constitutionally protected, no-knock raids for pot busts...not mentioned in the Constitution. One group of people getting jail time for killing someone else, even in error, where as another gets a fine and maybe a suspension...also not mentioned in the Constitution. Something about "rule of law"

[jerrymrc]

I am going to make a suggestion gang. When this started many made the comment that there needed to be more info.

Once again it has become (with a few exceptions) a pile on the cops thread.

I do not think that we will anytime soon get a "cops and Tazers gone wild" forum. Other places have tried and it is always a fail.

What I am trying to tell the members is that discussion about events is one thing. Speculation that has no basis in fact and is nothing more than an excuse to bash by dragging up other events as an excuse to post ones opinion is not a wise thing.

Just a thought.

[clublights]

Elhuero........... Bigmat

you COMPLETELY missed the point.

[BigMat]

Fair enough, how about an offensive joke, way too soon



I never imagined I would lose him like that, he was badly injured but I never thought he could be killed by police after he served his country," Vanessa Guerena said.

What is that supposed to mean?! I guess if you serve you get a free pass to do whatever you want.


I think what she meant is it took 71 rounds to take that devil dog vet down, and he was still breathing, that's one tough Marine. Man likes that makes the USMC proud, its why they don't even waste time with medics, no need.


Sorry corpsmen, I say that with all respect and knowledge of your service.

[OneGuy67]

I am going to make a suggestion gang. When this started many made the comment that there needed to be more info.

Once again it has become (with a few exceptions) a pile on the cops thread.

I do not think that we will anytime soon get a "cops and Tazers gone wild" forum. Other places have tried and it is always a fail.

What I am trying to tell the members is that discussion about events is one thing. Speculation that has no basis in fact and is nothing more than an excuse to bash by dragging up other events as an excuse to post ones opinion is not a wise thing.

Just a thought.

Jerry, you're just gonna have to lock the thread like last time...

[SA Friday]

no, we should be able to easily obtain and use any firearms the police do.

full auto laws should be rescinded.
I agree. That's why I enferring Posse Comititus LE/Mil equipement and tactics are the same is dangerous. The difference has to be squarely footed in the different authorities the two act under. The legal ramifications from DC v Heller are not over. We are currently determining just where that line is for law about guns and individual rights in this country. Judge Kennedy called this legal precedence making continuoum as gathering "baggage along the way", and he used the 'baggage' accumulation of the 1st ammendment as the example to follow. Considering the politics and recent SC appointee, the baggage could easily be against our desires as for our desires, especially if it comes from douchebaggery like the 9th Circuit Court and then is held up by SC appeal. Taking a stance that LE and Military are spiritually the same based on weapons and tactics easily leads to that line for gun ownership falling short. Ever live in England? If the commonwealth don't have guns, then the cops don't need them either. Show me one instance in history where any government disarmed their LE before they disarmed their citizens.

[BigMat]

I agree. That's why I enferring Posse Comititus LE/Mil equipement and tactics are the same is dangerous. The difference has to be squarely footed in the different authorities the two act under. The legal ramifications from DC v Heller are not over. We are currently determining just where that line is for law about guns and individual rights in this country. Judge Kennedy called this legal precedence making continuoum as gathering "baggage along the way", and he used the 'baggage' accumulation of the 1st ammendment as the example to follow. Considering the politics and recent SC appointee, the baggage could easily be against our desires as for our desires, especially if it comes from douchebaggery like the 9th Circuit Court and then is held up by SC appeal. Taking a stance that LE and Military are spiritually the same based on weapons and tactics easily leads to that line for gun ownership falling short. Ever live in England? If the commonwealth don't have guns, then the cops don't need them either. Show me one instance in history where any government disarmed their LE before they disarmed their citizens.



Agreed, no desire to disarm the police here. Just a change in how they go about using said arms.

[KevDen2005]

how about popular mechanics?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/4203345

an article from fox news written by a policy analyst for the CATO institute?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193652,00.html


I googled swat and army rangers and found these photos.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/elhuero/rangers-scar.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/elhuero/swat-team-at-abraxas_145001.jpg


they don't look alike at all!

your comment made me laugh because you're a LEO, trying to argue that the idea that the militarization of police pushes the boundaries of posse comitatus is just some silly opinion that has no basis.
that's like nambla arguing that they should be able to sponsor a boy scout troop. after all, they're a non profit that does community service, right?

swat teams serve knock warrants at 9am because they have to do something to justify their budget.

and like I've said.... would that I could go to the lengths police do to make myself feel safe.

now, it is true that not all the facts are known.

but if it comes out that the officers really screwed he pooch, what really is going to happen to them? not a whole heckofa lot.

I don't hate cops and I'm not passing judgment on this case.

all I'm saying is when they do foxtrot the entire situation the "well, they're just normal people like anyone else" line gets used, and that's the end of it.

they should be held to a higher standard.


I certainly don't agree with what you are saying, however, thank you for providing some support.

I never said there is no rational basis to connect posse comitatus to the military, I just implied I don't agree with that and my comment was if one shows me support for what your opinion is. Yelling out stuff in the middle of a room is going to get you nowhere except making everyone believe you are crazy.

Yes I am a cop, however, I still believe in the Constitution first, unlike most would believe that I would do, for some reason, even though I took an oath to it.

Having served as an Infantryman for seven years and worked in law enforcement for six years I can say that they may look the same on the exterior (somewhat) but they don't act nor operate the same in most ways.

Furthermore, I have accused our own SWAT team for looking too military. When the army switched to the ACU, they thought it was a good idea to do the same thing and then were upset when several people thought they were in the Army. Of course I had to explain to them that they are wearing an Army Combat Uniform.

Having been on calls with our SWAT team I completely disagree that the reason why they waited until 9am to serve a warrant was to justify some budget requirement. Is it true that budgets are misused or that SWAT teams don't need everything they have, probably, I am not a SWAT officer so I couldn't tell you for sure, but I would probably have to say yes.

I don't disagree with you for a second that police officers should be held to a much higher standard. They are equipped and charged with responsibility that not everyone has and can remove a person's civil liberties. Because of this, the highest level of scrutiny should be given when recruiting (don't get me started on hiring practices) for this position and officers should be given the highest amount of training possible when it comes to both law and engaging in any type of life threatening situation. Sadly, some departments have the budget for this and some do not.

I still disagree with you if they screwed the pooch that they won't be in big trouble. Again, my experiences both personal and with officers that I know, has been that minor screw ups are major penalties. Again, this may depend on department, state, union, and quality of the investigation.

[BigMat]

I still disagree with you if they screwed the pooch that they won't be in big trouble. Again, my experiences both personal and with officers that I know, has been that minor screw ups are major penalties. Again, this may depend on department, state, union, and quality of the investigation.


Would you mind defining "big trouble?" I don't say this to be an ass, I am really curious what the crime vs. punishment ratio compared to public, is for LEOs.

[KevDen2005]

Would you mind defining "big trouble?" I don't say this to be an ass, I am really curious what the crime vs. punishment ratio compared to public, is for LEOs.


Not knowing anything about the case other than the one article nor knowing department policies it would be very hard to tell. What I can tell you is this, I have known a couple officers involved in shootings. In our state, if you are in a shooting, you are treated as a homicide suspect would be. The officers that I have known said they were interrogated as if they were criminals the whole time and were advised to get a lawyer. Most of the time situations like that are handled by an outside agency so that the investigator is neutral. It's been my experience that cops are paranoid and even though another person is a cop, they don't trust them just because of that.

That kind of rambles but I hope that helps.

[KevDen2005]

I'm sorry, I forgot to add. If an officer commits a homicide he will go through all the same things as if he wasn't an officer. Judges and DA's take into account criminal histories, intent, etc.

[Clint45]

I hope they have a lot better justification for kicking in a man's door and machinegunning him to death in front of his family than some drug addicted felon told a narcotics officer he bought drugs at that address.

Apparently, this guy is a veteran and a homeowner who was married with children and working nights and overtime at a legitimate job, the rifle was legally owned and he did not exit his home with it.

If this goes down the way dozens of similar cases have, it will be covered up and no-one will lose their job over this. Maybe the city will throw a million dollar settlement at the wife to shut her up. If he didn't have such a solid background and the media wasn't expressing such outrage they might just claim they found drugs. It seems they already claimed that their red lights were flashing, they announced themselves repeatedly, and then the deceased, knowing they were police, pointed his weapon at them anyway and stated "I've got something for you" or words to that effect. Apparently the original story was he fired at them first, but now it looks as if that wasn't so. I'm familiar with several cases where an officer's AD resulted in everyone firing their weapons. Oops.

I'm opposed to raids of this sort in all but very rare and select cases, perhaps when an armed violent fugitive is known to be inside. No reason why they couldn't have arrested him and presented a search warrant as he was going to or from work.

[BigMat]

It does, appreciated.

I had in my head this kind of idea-

I'm going to lunch at a friends place, he says the wrong address, I walk into the wrong house (old people in AZ did this all the time), find a dude with an AR, I draw my CCW and kill him. I bet I get the book thrown at me.

(hypothetical worst case) cops raid the wrong house, find man inside with firearm, man dies. Cop catch's a suspension.
- I could cook up a better hypothetical, I understand they had a better reason for the raid than hot dogs, but not if it was in error. Not allowed to screw up when live ammo is involved. Just seemed like a double standard.

[KevDen2005]

It does, appreciated.

I had in my head this kind of idea-

I'm going to lunch at a friends place, he says the wrong address, I walk into the wrong house (old people in AZ did this all the time), find a dude with an AR, I draw my CCW and kill him. I bet I get the book thrown at me.

(hypothetical worst case) cops raid the wrong house, find man inside with firearm, man dies. Cop catch's a suspension.
- I could cook up a better hypothetical, I understand they had a better reason for the raid than hot dogs, but not if it was in error. Not allowed to screw up when live ammo is involved. Just seemed like a double standard.


Edit, I misread what you wrote

[TFOGGER]

I'm opposed to raids of this sort in all but very rare and select cases, perhaps when an armed violent fugitive is known to be inside. No reason why they couldn't have arrested him and presented a search warrant as he was going to or from work.

Or served the warrant 2 hours earlier, when he was known to have been at work.

The attitude that someone can scream "Police", kick my door in, and open fire if I don't fall submissively to the floor, strikes me as ridiculous. Not one member here would hesitate to defend themselves. And most likely, that person would end up dead. Criminals have been known to scream "Police" to obtain compliance during home invasion robberies, which are apparently not uncommon in Pima county.

Ask yourself "What would I do if my wife woke me up, saying that she heard someone moving around outside?". I l know what I would do, and it might cost me my life someday...

[KevDen2005]

Or served the warrant 2 hours earlier, when he was known to have been at work.

The attitude that someone can scream "Police", kick my door in, and open fire if I don't fall submissively to the floor, strikes me as ridiculous. Not one member here would hesitate to defend themselves. And most likely, that person would end up dead. Criminals have been known to scream "Police" to obtain compliance during home invasion robberies, which are apparently not uncommon in Pima county.

Ask yourself "What would I do if my wife woke me up, saying that she heard someone moving around outside?". I l know what I would do, and it might cost me my life someday...


I am certainly not disagreeing with you here either. All I am saying is that we don't know the full circumstances yet and that "no-knocks" are extremely rare.

[bryjcom]

It does, appreciated.

I had in my head this kind of idea-

I'm going to lunch at a friends place, he says the wrong address, I walk into the wrong house (old people in AZ did this all the time), find a dude with an AR, I draw my CCW and kill him. I bet I get the book thrown at me.

(hypothetical worst case) cops raid the wrong house, find man inside with firearm, man dies. Cop catch's a suspension.
- I could cook up a better hypothetical, I understand they had a better reason for the raid than hot dogs, but not if it was in error. Not allowed to screw up when live ammo is involved. Just seemed like a double standard.

That is why more and more people are having a negative attitude against law enforcement. They are not treated the same and that rubs us civies the wrong way and it tends to gives cops a feeling of entitlement.

I don't blame the rank and file cops really. Its a natural feeling that happens when you are given privileges.

I blame the people creating the training, the policies, and the district attorneys. It would be nice to see a DA see a police beating video and simply have that officer arrested instead of allowing an "investigation" that takes weeks.

If it was a video of me beating someone else, I would have an arrest warrant issued immediately.......

[bryjcom]

Or served the warrant 2 hours earlier, when he was known to have been at work.

The attitude that someone can scream "Police", kick my door in, and open fire if I don't fall submissively to the floor, strikes me as ridiculous. Not one member here would hesitate to defend themselves. And most likely, that person would end up dead. Criminals have been known to scream "Police" to obtain compliance during home invasion robberies, which are apparently not uncommon in Pima county.

Ask yourself "What would I do if my wife woke me up, saying that she heard someone moving around outside?". I l know what I would do, and it might cost me my life someday...

Quoted for truth.

[Zundfolge]

... "no-knocks" are extremely rare.

Not rare enough. (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/)

[KevDen2005]

Not rare enough. (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/)


I read that one already. However, a judge does approve of the "no knock" to take place. Also, not saying this is acceptable but there are bound to be a few screw ups when dealing with humans, generally. That picture depicts a very small handful of how many raids are actually conducted.

[Mobat555]

Video of the news cast (http://www.kgun9.com/story/14629829/medical-care-blocked-for-man-killed-by-swat)



His wife Vanessa told KGUN9 she called 911 and pleaded with deputies to treat his wounds.

"The only thing I told him was take care of him, take him to a hospital..."

KGUN 9 News requested the emergency call records for Drexel Heights Fire Rescue.

The 911 call center notified Drexel Heights at 9:43am.

A unit arrived just two minutes later at 9:45.

But deputies told rescue workers to stay put. That's standard to be sure they won't walk into danger.

But they waited until 10:59. Then heard the radio call "Code 900", that means they were no longer needed because the person was dead.

One hour and 14 minutes went by. Drexel Heights indicates they were never allowed to even examine Jose Guereña.

[bryjcom]

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/central_phoenix/phx-officer-charged-in-shooting-death


October 5, 2010—AZ

On October 5th, 2010, a Phoenix police officer responding to a report of domestic violence shot and killed Phoenix resident Danny Frank Rodriguez.
Entering the home of Elvira Rodriguez, Officer Richard Chrisman and Officer Sergio Virgillo encountered Mr. Rodriguez, who told them that they needed a warrant in order to enter the home. According to local news coverage, Chrisman put his weapon to Rodriguez’ head, declared that “We don’t need no warrant, [expletive],” and then proceeded to stun him with a taser gun and then shoot his dog.
When Rodriguez attempted to leave the property on his bicycle, Chrisman fatally shot him from several feet away. The other officer on scene, Sergio Virgillo, has stated that he did not believe Rodriguez was a threat, and that he was not holding a weapon at the time he was shot. Indeed, Officer Virgillo has stated the experience was “the worst day of his life.”
Officer Chrisman has been charged with a felony count of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.
The Phoenix Law Enforcement Association has contributed to posting the bond for Officer Chrisman, stating that it is reasonable for Chrisman “to be at home with his family as this criminal process unfolds,” and that they “rely on the principle of due process” to mitigate these types of incidents.
No weapons were found in the home.



Why in the hell does a officer who shoots and kills a un-armed man multiple times only get charged with aggravated assault???

[theGinsue]

Alright folks, closing this down.

For those of you wishing to post LEO bashing threads, start your own forum site but it needs to stop here. Yeah, theGinsue is swingin' the hammer. Perhaps most of you are unaware that your host on this site IS an LEO. Can you show no self control and show just a touch of respect?

Perhaps this thread didn't start out as a cop bashing thread and was only intended to point out an event that appeared bad based on the information available but it has developed into a full blown cop-bashing thread.

I don't know the details of the situation identified in the OP, so my next comments do not reference that case specifically.

Here's the deal, LEO's are people - like you and me. They make mistakes from time to time. Most are zero impact, some are not. Those mistakes are often blown out of proportion and widely advertised. You very rarely here of the times LEO's do everything right, give Joe Citizen a break, or save a life - all of which happens a hell of a lot more than the mistakes.

We have several members on this site who are or were LEO's and while I'm not particularly close to any of them, I DO count them all as MY FRIENDS and I won't sit idley by and allow the bashing to continue which only serves to insult them.

Call it censorship or what-have-you. As I stated at the start, if you want to post LEO bashing threads, start your own forum site but it WILL stop here.

If this offends any of you, fine - PM me, I can take it!

theGinsue

[ETA: My decision to close this thread and the "shot 71 times" thread was not easily made but I felt it was the best thing for this site and stand behind it 100&#37;. While this site entertains a variety of other topics, the focus of this site is on firearms; specifically the AR-15 platform. I may get over-ruled and the threads could get re-opened, but I suspect the chances of that happening are quite slim.

Discussions on any topics that are considered to be outside of the best interest of this site will be moderated to ensure no discredit is brought to us. These actions won't always be popular, but they are essential to proper site administration.]