What would you do?

[mcantar18c]

In a bit of a predicament... need some advice. I'm hoping a LEO can chime in on this.

So, a friend wanted a rifle a while back, but was unemployed at the time and was a couple hundred short on it. (Before I go further, he's an ex-Marine and 100% legal to own a gun). Anyway, he put in a little over $100, and I spotted him the other $200. I also loaned him a scope till he could get his own, which he still has mounted on the gun. He was a pretty good friend who'd always been true to his word in the past, something he placed a lot of stock on, so I agreed without putting much thought into it and didn't bother getting any kind of written agreement, and him and I agreed that he'd pay me back as soon as he was able to. This was late March/early February, and he's been working since late February with very little time off. The first time I contacted him about it, think it was mid last month, he said to be patient and he'd "do what he can when he can." Since then I've been seeing posts on Facebook like "who wants to hit the bar tonight?" and such, and hearing mutual friends saying he didn't seem to have any trouble paying for himself and sometimes others when they went out. I've tried contacting him multiple times in the past couple weeks, I've only been able to get him to respond to a text message last week and on Facebook tonight and in those two cases he responded once and nothing further, basically telling me to go pound sand. I'm at the end of my rope with him and am running out of options. If I show up to his house, he'll ask me to leave and then I'm on his property uninvited and I have no doubt that would get ugly quick. I'd confront him at his work but his job sites vary from week to week and are usually restricted access.

Being as its only a verbal agreement and he has some money into it, I can't claim it as stolen property. I don't see any other legal option left, and while it wouldn't be difficult to just go take it back I don't know if there would be any legal repercussions for me even if I own most of it.
Any suggestions?

[spyder]

It sounds like you are screwed unless you have somthing with your signature on it. Your word against his at this point.

[bobbyfairbanks]

There is a old rule that if you loan your friend money and want to stay friends consider it a gift. If you get the money back then hey you are lucky but who cares.

[Elhuero]

you are screwed.

you could take him to court, but there's no contract, only verbal agreement, your word vs. his.

confronting him will just cause a fight, so just chalk it up to a loss, tell everyone you know that he's a lowlife, and move on.

or a brick thru his window should even things out.

[Byte Stryke]

There is a old rule that if you loan your friend money and want to stay friends consider it a gift. If you get the money back then hey you are lucky but who cares.

Friends and Relatives.

[flan7211]

Happened to me a few years back. Don't loan money and expect it back.

[mcantar18c]

Well, since I own 2/3 of the rifle (monetarily speaking), and the scope, wouldn't that make it more mine than his?

[bobbyfairbanks]

sure good luck proving that. How much money do you have invested into it? How much do you think it will cost to go to court over it.

[mcantar18c]

Not gonna go to court, not worth it and can't really afford it anyway.
I WILL get either the money he owes me or the rifle from him (if only out of principal), I'm just looking for a legal, or the most legal, way to do it without incurring any more losses on my part.
Gonna wait for a LEO or two to comment here before I do anything though.

[bobbyfairbanks]

It seems you are going to have to ask him for your stuff back and cover his money into it or ask him for your money back. What if he says no then what; steal it back from him by breaking into his house? If he doesn't want to talk to you maybe there is something else going on and he is embarrassed.

LEO please do not take offense.

LEO are not lawyers and cannot offer legal advice. In a lot of cases they give wrong advice from lack of understanding of the law or complete ignorance of the law. That is why LEO Officers will tell you to ask a Attorney not one of them.

If you feel the need to do something just try talking to the guy and give him a out that will allow him to save face.

[AR_ART]

I learned a long time ago to NOT lend money to friends. I also learned that friends don't ask friends for loans either...

As others have stated there isn't much you can do. Your buddy will have to either handover the stuff or pay you. Its purely up to him.

[mcantar18c]

Just went and checked.... turns out we bought the rifle in December. Damn, didn't think it'd been that long.



It seems you are going to have to ask him for your stuff back and cover his money into it or ask him for your money back. What if he says no then what; steal it back from him by breaking into his house? If he doesn't want to talk to you maybe there is something else going on and he is embarrassed.

LEO please do not take offense.

LEO are not lawyers and cannot offer legal advice. In a lot of cases they give wrong advice from lack of understanding of the law or complete ignorance of the law. That is why LEO Officers will tell you to ask a Attorney not one of them.

If you feel the need to do something just try talking to the guy and give him a out that will allow him to save face.

I HAVE tried asking him for the money/rifle, I HAVE tried working with him, I HAVE tried giving him an easy way out.... I went over all that in the original post. I've tried all of the obvious stuff, I posted here cause I need outside opinions.
And no, I don't plan on stealing it back. I think I came up with a good plan that'll let me get a hold of the rifle easily and legally (insomnia has its benefits). But I'd still like a LEO's thoughts.
Oh and on that note, I know that a LEO may not completely understand a given law and I'm not looking for legal advice. I'm just asking for suggestions from someone that may have experience with similar situations and knows how to operate well within the law.



I learned a long time ago to NOT lend money to friends. I also learned that friends don't ask friends for loans either...

As others have stated there isn't much you can do. Your buddy will have to either handover the stuff or pay you. Its purely up to him.

Yeah, well, lesson learned, no more helping friends when they ask. Its a damn sad world we live in.
But no, I don't think its purely up to him. He may be in possession of the actual rifle (for now), but we BOTH have money into this, and he ain't the only one that knows how to play hardball. If my plan works out, he'll have his money back out of it and I'll be able to sell the rifle and get my share back too.... I don't care what he thinks about it anymore, that's the only way I see to make this a win-win.

[TFOGGER]

If it only cost you a few hundred bucks to find out what kind of friend he is, consider it money well spent, and move on. I wish I had taken that advice years ago.[Bang]

[Byte Stryke]

Just went and checked.... turns out we bought the rifle in December. Damn, didn't think it'd been that long.




I HAVE tried asking him for the money/rifle, I HAVE tried working with him, I HAVE tried giving him an easy way out.... I went over all that in the original post. I've tried all of the obvious stuff, I posted here cause I need outside opinions.
And no, I don't plan on stealing it back. I think I came up with a good plan that'll let me get a hold of the rifle easily and legally (insomnia has its benefits). But I'd still like a LEO's thoughts.
Oh and on that note, I know that a LEO may not completely understand a given law and I'm not looking for legal advice. I'm just asking for suggestions from someone that may have experience with similar situations and knows how to operate well within the law.




Yeah, well, lesson learned, no more helping friends when they ask. Its a damn sad world we live in.
But no, I don't think its purely up to him. He may be in possession of the actual rifle (for now), but we BOTH have money into this, and he ain't the only one that knows how to play hardball. If my plan works out, he'll have his money back out of it and I'll be able to sell the rifle and get my share back too.... I don't care what he thinks about it anymore, that's the only way I see to make this a win-win.


sometimes winning is achieved through surrender.

Just dont anything you might regret later.

[Ranger]

If it only cost you a few hundred bucks to find out what kind of friend he is, consider it money well spent, and move on. I wish I had taken that advice years ago.[Bang]

After I lost money to a friend the first time, this was my outlook as well. It only cost me a thousand bucks to never see the prick again. I've been down that road with family too and now I don't loan money to anyone.

He can be a great guy and a good friend but just may have no sense of responsibility or just be a deadbeat when it comes to paying bills and you have to find that out the hard way.

You have one option, though, that you can try as a last ditch effort. It's a dick move, but since you are writing off the friendship anyway and he's not really a friend any longer you might consider posting to his facebook wall something that DOES cause him to lose face with people - nothing derogatory, but maybe along the lines of "glad to see you are back on your feet again, perhaps you can finally pay me for the rifle I bought you or just give it back to me". When all diplomacy fails you can resort to this kind of tactic.

I think you're pretty much out the money bud!

[Irving]

Call his boss and tell him that you are trying to find him because he owes you money for a gun. Once you mention that a gun is involved, the police will probably be brought into it.

[spleify]

Along the lines of a couple of the previous posts, I have always lived by this:

If a "friend" is worth losing over money, then they are a "friend" worth losing...

Look at it this way, it only cost you a couple/few hundred bucks and you will never have to see this guy again, in fact, he will avoid you at all costs. He will be the one that is uncomfortable, and have to constantly think about it. If there are mutual situations where you both might be there, a birthday part, a BBQ, etc. he will be the one sweating it and worrying the whole time...

I have been bitten before by "friends" I'm an old softy and people mistake my kindness for foolishness. Shame on them.

Move on and consider it a loss, or the gain of one less dead beet person in your life.

[alxone]

its a hard call , where im from 200 bucks is a death sentence (baltimore) . but you can ether walk away and consider it payment for him to stay away forever or get sneaky and duff dude in the eye . not that im saying that you should go and beat his ass , but maybe you should . remember if you take the low road that puts you in the same bucket as the thief . granted you will feel better in the moment but you wont get your money back .its really up to you good luck and i hope you make the right choice.

[rockhound]

you should report yourself to the CBI for participating in a straw purchase [ROFL1]


seriously though just forget about him or you could invite him to the range and when you are all done just pack his gun up in your rig and go home with it.

[BlasterBob]

I think that if it were me, I'd tell your "friend" that you are suddenly in a tight spot/situation where you really have to have your money now. If he's still your friend, I believe he'd bust his ass to hand you some cash or hand the gun over to you. That's the old school way of doing things. If his word is no good then he's not worth a good shit either.[Rant1]

[CrufflerSteve]

I'd walk away. You now know he is no friend but it simply isn't worth getting into trouble over it. If I owed money to a friend, I'd be giving money back before even thinking of going out on the town.

You could make some sort of attempt to get a payment plan out of him and if he won't write him off as a lowlife scumbag mooch. Legal attempts to get it back are going to cost you money, time and aggravation. Other methods can end badly.

If the paperwork for the gun is in his name, sorry.

Steve

[sandman76]

I see that you want your money. If he is still someone you consider a friend maybe you could have a range session with him. Theres a chance he doesn't even have the rifle anymore. Be good to find that out.

If there is no action on his part to keep the friendship going then it would probably be best to write off the of the money and the friend. Fighting ovber a few hundred bucks just ain't worth it. JMO.

[islandermyk]

Sorry to hear about your situation. I agree with a lot of the post here... $200, a scope, and part of the rifle ain't worth any trouble... these things are something you can make back in no time! I hope that the rifle is under your name, cause I believe it is a felony if you tell the authorities that he stole it from you... that would make him shit his pants! [Coffee]
Good luck with your case... but IMHO, I would just move on and avoid this guy as he ain't worth another round of headache [Beer]

[2008f450]

4 things I never loan out. Guns,guitars,money,and the wife. You will lose out almost everytime. Just my .02

[TFOGGER]

4 things I never loan out. Guns,guitars,money,and the wife. You will lose out almost everytime. Just my .02

almost...except the wife? [LOL]

[hip55]

I would just ask him directly if he plans to pay you back the money and return your scope.

If he says yes, then ask him when he plans to do this.

If he says no, tell him to go eat his mother's biscuits and wash your hands of him.

[Zundfolge]

I would just ask him directly if he plans to pay you back the money and return your scope.

If he says yes, then ask him when he plans to do this.

If he says no, tell him to go eat his mother's biscuits and wash your hands of him.
^^This.

I'm not sure what you're trying to salvage ... his friendship isn't worth anything since he screwed you over a few bucks ... and you're probably not going to see the money back even with some effort.

It sucks but it is what it is.

[Monky]

So.. you loaned your friend money.. with no real 'date' to pay you back just 'when he could'.. now you're upset that he hasn't paid you back, but is enjoying his life.. I'm guessing w/o you being invited out?

The item purchased really is not relevant, unless it was purchased through an FFL in your name. Because a receipt would show you as the purchaser, and in turn you would have loaned the weapon to him for whatever purpose. Which he is now refusing to return, and it could be considered theft. If it was a private sale w/no record of who it was sold to, and he handed over the money..

You see where this is going.. you're better off taking it as a loss and a lesson. Any attempts w/o his knowledge and consent, of removing property from him is just going to get you into shit.. Go ahead.. enter his home when he's not there, remove a firearm... see where that gets you. Explain that to the LE/ATF/Judge as you're wearing an orange jump suit..

As has been said.. it's your word vs his right now. w/o any proof.

Oh .. and can I borrow some money to buy something...

Take it as a loss and a lesson.

[2008f450]

almost...except the wife? [LOL]


yep couldnt lose her if i tried[Slap]

[Mtn.man]

never loan out the Dog either.

[KevDen2005]

Given your first post I would have to tell you sadly that there isn't much LE could do about it. Depending on your jurisdiction, you could call for a Civil Standby for LEO's to go with you to know on his door just to talk to him about it. However, since you both are claiming the rifle/money, you gave it to him willingly along with the scope, and you never had a set of contract of when to pay back, etc, then this situation is what we call civil. You could always talk to a lawyer or contact the Sheriff's Office in your county and ask to speak to someone from the Civil Division. Depending on how much money you gave him and how much the scope is worth, it may be much cheaper to let it go, however, I am the type of person that hates that just because it sends the message that that's okay.

[pickenup]

Sometimes it is OK to "use" the system.
It doesn't cost....that.....much.
Your word against his IS what the courts are for.
Make your case, show what the rifle/scope is worth, tell the judge what he paid you, and agreed to. You might be pleasantly surprised with the outcome, you may not.

http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/File/Self_Help/Small_Claims/Small_Claims_rules%281%29.pdf

[Monky]

Take it to Judge Judy!

[waxthis]

Answer is simple, send your buddy a link to this thread. Seriously.

[Mtn.man]

You could always say Hey forget the cash I need to barrow your car/truck for a couple hours.

[mcantar18c]

You could make some sort of attempt to get a payment plan out of him and if he won't write him off as a lowlife scumbag mooch. Legal attempts to get it back are going to cost you money, time and aggravation. Other methods can end badly.

If the paperwork for the gun is in his name, sorry.

Steve

I would, and I told him I'd be willing to just take payments on it, but since he won't communicate with me I can't set that up.
No paperwork for the gun... bought it private party (here on COAR actually) with no bill of sale, although there's electronic records of communication between myself and the seller...



I see that you want your money. If he is still someone you consider a friend maybe you could have a range session with him. Theres a chance he doesn't even have the rifle anymore. Be good to find that out.

If there is no action on his part to keep the friendship going then it would probably be best to write off the of the money and the friend. Fighting ovber a few hundred bucks just ain't worth it. JMO.

Oh I know he still has the rifle. He took a friend shooting a couple weeks ago and she said she saw it in his truck just the other day.
I'm not mad about a few hundred bucks. If he'd just communicate with me and let me know if/when/how he wants to take care of things, and maybe not go throwing money around out on the town every other day, I wouldn't care if he had $1000 of my money.



I would just ask him directly if he plans to pay you back the money and return your scope.

If he says yes, then ask him when he plans to do this.

If he says no, tell him to go eat his mother's biscuits and wash your hands of him.

Again, he won't communicate with me. I may as well be trying to have a conversation with my boot.



I'm not sure what you're trying to salvage ... his friendship isn't worth anything since he screwed you over a few bucks ... and you're probably not going to see the money back even with some effort.

It sucks but it is what it is.

I'm not trying to salvage anything. After this, combined with some of the other shit he's pulled in recent months, I'm just about done with this guy... I have no interest in trying to salvage any kind of a friendship here. But we have quite a few mutual friends (read: almost everybody we're friends with) and I'm not about to let him walk all over me and show everybody that I'll just sit back and let it happen.



Given your first post I would have to tell you sadly that there isn't much LE could do about it. Depending on your jurisdiction, you could call for a Civil Standby for LEO's to go with you to know on his door just to talk to him about it. However, since you both are claiming the rifle/money, you gave it to him willingly along with the scope, and you never had a set of contract of when to pay back, etc, then this situation is what we call civil. You could always talk to a lawyer or contact the Sheriff's Office in your county and ask to speak to someone from the Civil Division. Depending on how much money you gave him and how much the scope is worth, it may be much cheaper to let it go, however, I am the type of person that hates that just because it sends the message that that's okay.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. Other than claiming it as stolen property, I really have no interest in getting authorities involved... I see that as letting someone else handle my problems, and I'm one of those guys that likes to take out my own trash (not in the Don Corleone way lol).
And yeah, you pretty much nailed it in the last sentence.
Thanks for the input



Your word against his [B]IS what the courts are for.

IMO, courts are (should be) for putting a man in front of a jury of his peers and deciding whether he is innocent or guilty of a particular crime. Not for a really expensive counseling session between two idiots that can't handle their own shit.



Answer is simple, send your buddy a link to this thread. Seriously.

What, so he can see a bunch of people saying to just write it off and think he's gonna make off with this scott-free? So he's tempted to make an account and start running his mouth on here, and then we have a less than trustworthy character running around the site? I don't see what that'd accomplish.



You could always say Hey forget the cash I need to barrow your car/truck for a couple hours.

If only he would communicate with me. Oh, yeah, he's got no insurance on his truck.... can't afford it or something [Shake]

[Storm]

Since you have so many mutual friends and he won't communicate with you, get one of them you trust to let you know the next time they go out together. Meet them there and confront him on the issue, publicly. If nothing else, it'll embarrass the shit out of him and show to all present what a louse he is.

[waxthis]

I would, and I told him I'd be willing to just take payments on it, but since he won't communicate with me I can't set that up.
No paperwork for the gun... bought it private party (here on COAR actually) with no bill of sale, although there's electronic records of communication between myself and the seller...




Oh I know he still has the rifle. He took a friend shooting a couple weeks ago and she said she saw it in his truck just the other day.
I'm not mad about a few hundred bucks. If he'd just communicate with me and let me know if/when/how he wants to take care of things, and maybe not go throwing money around out on the town every other day, I wouldn't care if he had $1000 of my money.




Again, he won't communicate with me. I may as well be trying to have a conversation with my boot.




I'm not trying to salvage anything. After this, combined with some of the other shit he's pulled in recent months, I'm just about done with this guy... I have no interest in trying to salvage any kind of a friendship here. But we have quite a few mutual friends (read: almost everybody we're friends with) and I'm not about to let him walk all over me and show everybody that I'll just sit back and let it happen.




Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. Other than claiming it as stolen property, I really have no interest in getting authorities involved... I see that as letting someone else handle my problems, and I'm one of those guys that likes to take out my own trash (not in the Don Corleone way lol).
And yeah, you pretty much nailed it in the last sentence.
Thanks for the input [Beer]




IMO, courts are (should be) for putting a man in front of a jury of his peers and deciding whether he is innocent or guilty of a particular crime. Not for a really expensive counseling session between two idiots that can't handle their own shit.




What, so he can see a bunch of people saying to just write it off and think he's gonna make off with this scott-free? So he's tempted to make an account and start running his mouth on here, and then we have a less than trustworthy character running around the site? I don't see what that'd accomplish.




If only he would communicate with me. Oh, yeah, he's got no insurance on his truck.... can't afford it or something [Shake]

"What, so he can see a bunch of people saying to just write it off and think he's gonna make off with this scott-free? So he's tempted to make an account and start running his mouth on here, and then we have a less than trustworthy character running around the site? I don't see what that'd accomplish."

Perhaps all this info might hit is conscience and he will pay-up, if not, then live and learn and move on. Sux I know.

[bryjcom]

You say that there has been some communication via text messaging. If he implied that he did owe you the money and said that he needs time then there's your proof that he owes you money.

Text messages can and are used as evidence in court.

[two shoes]

....No paperwork for the gun... bought it private party (here on COAR actually) with no bill of sale, although there's electronic records of communication between myself and the seller...


This shows you as the owner... should be all you need...

[Mtn.man]

As a last resort you could always take him up on meeting at the bar and open a can of


http://www.superwhoopass.com/uploads/2/6/7/2/2672294/6969101.jpg?158

[sneakerd]

Getting into a fight or going to court will both cost much more than the deal is worth. I would tell every single common friend you have the whole story.

[sneakerd]

You could also just start posting demands on his facebook page every single day until he blocks you- which prob wouldn't take long if he hasn't already. Enlist a friend who will take your side of the beef to put pressure on him. Embarrass him as often as possible and in every way possible.

[ldmaster]

In the past five years I've loaned money to a lot of people, "friends" if you will that were in a financial bind...

I can remember getting paid back exactly TWICE. Both were women, one DIED and he husband paid me back (really tragic story) and one is a welfare mom of four children.

Five loans to "ex military" guys who now avoid me like the plague.j

One loan was always getting "redone" by an ex-marine who put up his garand with me as collateral. He got it back, came and got a loan again - did this about three times. The LAST time he just paid me part back, and said keep the rifle - which I have. Like with any collateralized loan I've made, the person can ALWAYS get the item back, just pay me what I loaned you. I've done a lot like this, mostly I kept the items. I don't charge interest BTW. As it turns out he was simply an alcoholic who couldn't hold a job, he's a nice guy - but alcoholism owns him at the moment. It made his prior history of "making a loan good" irrelevant. just thinking, but if a lot of what he does on facebook or with friends is DRINK ALCOHOL, then there's that explanation too. Doesn't make him a douchebag, just makes him an alcoholic.


having been in any branch of the service does NOT make one more trustworthy, and being on welfare doesn't seem to make one LESS trustworthy.

LEO's don't give legal advice simply because people that ask for it, are seldom being 100 percent truthful and civil law isn't something we're trained on, except how to recognize it, and free legal advice is worth exactly what you pay for it, else you get badgered constantly for your advice.

He's a thief, pure and simple - whether he's actually taken the money OR deprived you of some property with no intention to pay for it - he's a thief. The law will see it as "civil" but remember, OJ Simpson was convicted of murder in CIVIL court, and had to pay money. Criminal court is simply a different division of the law with it's own set of rules and procedures.

So sue him in small claims court. It's easy, but not free, you have to pay the filing fee - but you can get that back at trial IF you win. Some counties have the paperwork online, you just have to go down in person to file it.

Lots of people get the wake-up call when they get served with small claims paperwork, and work out the problem without court - in which case there's a check off on the original paperwork to indicate you have settled the claim out of court.

It doesn't matter that he put some scope or money into the rifle. If someone buys a car, puts new rims on it, a new stereo and all that fancy stuff - and he doesn't pay the original lender for the car - the entire CAR is forfeited in the subsequent repossession - including any improvements to the car. Entirely irrelevant that he has "an investment" in the car. Give him his scope back, since you don't consider it to be yours - fair enough.

Odds are he'll get all huffy and just pay you what he owes - the odds are even BIGGER that this thief will go whining to his girlfriend for the money (which, like and idiot, she will give to him) about how you "used him" or deceived him. You have to be ready to be painted by him as a "bad guy" - so be it, it's what ALL thieves do - redirect blame elsewhere.

I mean, you threatened him with bodily harm to get him to take the money, right?

it's not like you loaned him money for FOOD for his children, you loaned him the money (or goods) because he WANTED something, not because he NEEDED it to survive.

Hold him up to the standard, I wish I had done so.

[Elhuero]

Answer is simple, send your buddy a link to this thread. Seriously.


no, don't do that.

brick. window. satisfaction.


edit: or, be smart an do like ldmaster says. get all the records of your correspondence and sue him in small claims, or forget about it.

[TFOGGER]

rWOn1dFmFds

[sneakerd]

Hmmmm. You could do the brick AND demand the money. double your pleasure- double your fun![Beer]

[mcantar18c]

Getting into a fight or going to court will both cost much more than the deal is worth. I would tell every single common friend you have the whole story.

There are a select few friends that know about the situation for various reasons. Past them, I don't plan on telling any of our friends anything about this. What's between me and him is just that, and is nobody else's business (if anybody here knew who he was I wouldn't have posted anything). If I wanted to run around talking crap about someone to everybody I'd go back to high school.
I have no doubt that he isn't beyond talking shit about me to all of them, in which case I'll have no problem setting the record straight. Until then though....


You could also just start posting demands on his facebook page every single day until he blocks you- which prob wouldn't take long if he hasn't already. Enlist a friend who will take your side of the beef to put pressure on him. Embarrass him as often as possible and in every way possible.

Thought about doing that, but as much as I hate Facebook its an asset that allows me to see some of what's going on when he won't communicate with me himself, and I don't want to burn that asset.
As for enlisting a friend to put pressure on him... again, what's between him and me is nobody else's business, and I refuse to stick a friend in the middle of it.


In the past five years I've loaned money to a lot of people, "friends" if you will that were in a financial bind...

I can remember getting paid back exactly TWICE. Both were women, one DIED and he husband paid me back (really tragic story) and one is a welfare mom of four children.

Five loans to "ex military" guys who now avoid me like the plague.j

One loan was always getting "redone" by an ex-marine who put up his garand with me as collateral. He got it back, came and got a loan again - did this about three times. The LAST time he just paid me part back, and said keep the rifle - which I have. Like with any collateralized loan I've made, the person can ALWAYS get the item back, just pay me what I loaned you. I've done a lot like this, mostly I kept the items. I don't charge interest BTW. As it turns out he was simply an alcoholic who couldn't hold a job, he's a nice guy - but alcoholism owns him at the moment. It made his prior history of "making a loan good" irrelevant. just thinking, but if a lot of what he does on facebook or with friends is DRINK ALCOHOL, then there's that explanation too. Doesn't make him a douchebag, just makes him an alcoholic.


having been in any branch of the service does NOT make one more trustworthy, and being on welfare doesn't seem to make one LESS trustworthy.

LEO's don't give legal advice simply because people that ask for it, are seldom being 100 percent truthful and civil law isn't something we're trained on, except how to recognize it, and free legal advice is worth exactly what you pay for it, else you get badgered constantly for your advice.

He's a thief, pure and simple - whether he's actually taken the money OR deprived you of some property with no intention to pay for it - he's a thief. The law will see it as "civil" but remember, OJ Simpson was convicted of murder in CIVIL court, and had to pay money. Criminal court is simply a different division of the law with it's own set of rules and procedures.

So sue him in small claims court. It's easy, but not free, you have to pay the filing fee - but you can get that back at trial IF you win. Some counties have the paperwork online, you just have to go down in person to file it.

Lots of people get the wake-up call when they get served with small claims paperwork, and work out the problem without court - in which case there's a check off on the original paperwork to indicate you have settled the claim out of court.

It doesn't matter that he put some scope or money into the rifle. If someone buys a car, puts new rims on it, a new stereo and all that fancy stuff - and he doesn't pay the original lender for the car - the entire CAR is forfeited in the subsequent repossession - including any improvements to the car. Entirely irrelevant that he has "an investment" in the car. Give him his scope back, since you don't consider it to be yours - fair enough.

Odds are he'll get all huffy and just pay you what he owes - the odds are even BIGGER that this thief will go whining to his girlfriend for the money (which, like and idiot, she will give to him) about how you "used him" or deceived him. You have to be ready to be painted by him as a "bad guy" - so be it, it's what ALL thieves do - redirect blame elsewhere.

I mean, you threatened him with bodily harm to get him to take the money, right?

it's not like you loaned him money for FOOD for his children, you loaned him the money (or goods) because he WANTED something, not because he NEEDED it to survive.

Hold him up to the standard, I wish I had done so.

Thanks for the clarification, especially the car bit. Correction though, the scope is mine, I told him he could use it till he got his own (which surprise, he ain't yet). I don't want to get the courts involved, but its a good card to have in my hand and it certainly worked when I played it (see below).


no, don't do that.

brick. window. satisfaction.

Brick. Window. Temporary satisfaction.
I'm still out $200 and a scope, and I give him something else to spend money on before he pays me back.


ANYWAY, I finally got a hold of him (via text, so there'd be a record), of course I had to provoke him to get a response but it worked. He got defensive and gave me the impression he had no intention of paying up. When I first told him I didn't want to get the law involved in this, he laughed and said I have no record or receipt, and that since he is in possession of the rifle the law would be on his side, and told me not to make bullshit threats. So I told him that there is, in fact, electronic record of the transaction, and that I own 2/3 of the rifle and 100% of the scope, and that the PMs were between myself and the seller where he agreed to sell it to ME, not us, and that *I*, not we, agreed to buy it from him.
At that point he opened up pretty quickly [Coffee]
He told me that when he's been going out he hasn't been spending money (which is bullshit), but he also said that he got a no insurance ticket and that he had to put $1300 into his truck and has court for it on the 23rd, and that he'd take care of things with me after that. I told him I'll back off till then and let him take care of court, but that I'd be holding him to his word and expected him to follow through on it. He responded with "sounds like a plan" and I haven't heard anything since. So I guess I just gotta wait and find out, but if I don't get some of the very next paycheck he gets following that court date that rifle is mine, and I'll either keep it or just sell it and make my money back plus some.

[Irving]

I bought a dude a soda at work today, and thought of this thread and knew that I wasn't getting my money back. I figure the only chance I've got is to tell him up front that I know that he doesn't have the integrity to pay me back, but I'll buy him the soda anyway.

[Elhuero]

ANYWAY, I finally got a hold of him (via text,.......


I don't mean this as an insult to you, I just evaluating the situation.

you pussed out. he is going to feed you lines of BS until rapture if you let him.

when he says "I'm not spending money", you say "stop with the BS already will ya?"

when he starts in about all is financial woes you say "ever see goodfellas? fuck you, pay me"

I can tell you from personal experience, EVERY lowlife has a sob story.

figure out how much $$ the 1/3 of the rifle is that he owns, then when he feeds you his woe is me line say, well I'll give you the $x amount of it that's yours, I get the rifle with scope and you get some dough to help with your *cough* financial problems.

after his next check when you don't see any $$, don't hear from him and can't get a hold of him, I won't say I told you so.

if he comes thru and fixes things like he said, then you can say I told you so to me if you like.

but it won't happen, I'd wager money on it.

[sneakerd]

I think Elhuero is spot-on. Gotta get mad and deal or forget about it.[Mad]

[KevDen2005]

I don't mean this as an insult to you, I just evaluating the situation.

you pussed out. he is going to feed you lines of BS until rapture if you let him.

when he says "I'm not spending money", you say "stop with the BS already will ya?"

when he starts in about all is financial woes you say "ever see goodfellas? fuck you, pay me"

I can tell you from personal experience, EVERY lowlife has a sob story.

figure out how much $$ the 1/3 of the rifle is that he owns, then when he feeds you his woe is me line say, well I'll give you the $x amount of it that's yours, I get the rifle with scope and you get some dough to help with your *cough* financial problems.

after his next check when you don't see any $$, don't hear from him and can't get a hold of him, I won't say I told you so.

if he comes thru and fixes things like he said, then you can say I told you so to me if you like.

but it won't happen, I'd wager money on it.


Agreed, I would want the rifle as collateral and demand that. He is full of it.

[ldmaster]

As a pure exercise of thought...

Everyone has their "limit". My neighbor bashed his wife's face against a staircase, it's about the third incident where she's taken him back (after he got arrested this last time). Her "limits" are clearly NOT mine.

Everybody has their line also, the line it that they have to reach to do some particular act. My dog, for instance, has a line wherein if she does the "shake your hand" thing, she immediately feels entitled to take food off your plate - yeah, no kidding I spoil her.

We ALL see that this guy is playing a game with you, YOU see he's playing a game with you... What many may not consider is that in order to have peace in your own mind about the incident, that YOU might have a line that is much further out than that of another person.

For some, it's the utter disbelief that someone you've known for YEARS shared stories with and have personal history with, would treat you like a bitch.

Sorta like the line from Pulp Fiction:

'What does Marchellus Wallis look like?"

'Black, bald, tall ...."

"Does he look like a bitch?"

"No"

"Then why you trying to f**k him like one?"

These guys had, in their own mind, formulated a relationship that ALLOWED THEM TO MORALLY DEAL WITH THEIR ACTIONS, and had to be set straight.

Your friend has clearly constructed a similar moral framework. In it HE is the reasonable one, and you're the unreasonable one.

Look forward to actually going to court over this.


And it's not "his word vs mine" really, it isn't - the judge WILL make a determination as to who is telling him the truth. Even if he's only 51 percent convinced that your story is true, he will rule in your favor - that's the way civil law works, the standard is that a majority is required to prevail - in criminal cases a case must be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt". A judge does not have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt as to the truth of your story, he only has to feel your story is the more believable of the two. A judge will not concoct a third version that fits what he/she thinks, he will rule solely on what is presented by both of you.

Lots of things work in your favor.

1. YOU know where you got the gun from in the first place, and that person can be a witness for you.

2. Other people who know you, have seen you with the gun, they can be a witness that you once owned the gun.

3. I must assume you have the gun's serial number, how would someone who never possessed the gun have the serial number for it?

4. If you got it from a dealer, you can ask them to give you a photocopy of the 4473. Some businesses charge for this. If they are out of business, then the ATF probably has the record - and they have it in an online database. Whatever charges you incur to get this evidence, you can get reimbursed for - just save your receipts. Have to subpoena a witness? Well, you can get reimbursed for the cost of service to that person - his costs can and will add up very quickly.

You're going to win, it is just a matter of you being pushed beyond your limits. What someone thinks of your relative "softness" or resemblance to a feline is not horribly important - the really really sad thing about all this is that it reduces the amount of trust you are willing to extend to other people.

I do think it's a symptom of our society, the "welfare" mentality that goes along with the "I deserve" thing. I don't remember anybody I know of growing up in the 70's who didn't pay back loans, I suppose they existed - but even though I was a poor kid, if someone borrowed 5 bucks, they went out of their way to pay you back. Now with credit cards and the like, the estimate is that over 60 percent of American's have debt that they cannot/will not repay - and they're so immune to the shame that it's nothing to them to do so.

time to take some kind of chill pill!!!

[spleify]

figure out how much $$ the 1/3 of the rifle is that he owns, then when he feeds you his woe is me line say, well I'll give you the $x amount of it that's yours, I get the rifle with scope and you get some dough to help with your *cough* financial problems.

I like this idea. Send him a text and empathize with him and tell him you feel for his situation and know he probably needs the money more than he needs the rifle right now and you will give him the $100 for the rifle and you can both be on your way.