Posting a discussion topic to stop a thread hijack.

[CMP_5.56]

In a review thread on the forum the topic has come up of a local shop denying a purchase from permanent resident.

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23062

Above is the thread that the topic came up in. I will admit I was the first one to stray from the thread topic. So I'm taking the reins (and blame I'm assuming) for this thread.

Personally I don't disagree with a shop owners right to refuse service for any reason they deem justified. And on this specific topic I have to admit I agree with their decision. Like I stated in the other thread I have never understood the whole "permanent residency" thing. Other than being a step in becoming a naturalized citizen, I don't get the appeal of becoming a permanent resident. If you love this country enough to never want to leave, why not become a citizen? Personally I see it this way, (and I do expect to get flamed for this, so feel free.), if you want all the rights, freedoms and benefits of living in this country, you should be willing to take on the responsibilities of them. I almost have to question the motive to stay here indefinitely without taking the oath of citizenship. Is it so that if things get bad you can just head back to your home country? Without feeling any obligation to protect this one?

Either way, I dont get it. I also am sure this topic may become a heated one. After stating that I would rather it be here than on a feedback thread.

[Irving]

Your position is laughable.

You think people don't become a citizen immediately because they are afraid of an oath? An oath is just words and words don't cost money.

[CMP_5.56]

Your position is laughable.

You think people don't become a citizen immediately because they are afraid of an oath? An oath is just words and words don't cost money.

For one I know the process of becoming a citizen is a long one, as well it should be. And no I do not believe people choose to not become a citizen out of fear of an oath. What I was saying is I don't understand why someone would choose to stay a permanent resident over becoming an actual citizen. My family alone has numerous immigrants in it. All of them came here and sought citizenship. None them were talked into it, they saw it ad an honor. It was the reason they came here in the first place, to become a United Stares citizen.

So I ask others that choose to come and stay here, but not become a citizen, why not? To me the only thing I can think of is wanting the rights, freedoms, and privileges of being a citizen without the responsibilities. Not too mention an easy exit out of this country in the event things don't go there way.

So maybe you misread what I was saying, or I wasn't clear enough. Hope this helps illustrate my point of view.

[Irving]

Thanks for the clarification.

I think it really depends on the kind of person. When you come over as a kid, your parents get your card for the first 10 years, then when it's time to renew, you're a teenager and all you care about is getting a driver's license. Then at 25, they are hitting the bar scene and just renew for another ten years. I think if you are in a family where your parents don't vote and aren't involved in politics or even political discussions, then you don't really care because you can't see how it will effect you.

[CMP_5.56]

I can see your point, but I also don't see that as justification either. But I also was more worried about my right to vote at a young age than most. I was a registered voter at age 18, didn't get my drivers license until I was 21. I know so many people that came here with the intention to become citizens, and saw how proud they were when they did finally attain that goal. So to me it just says you either don't care about the country you live in, or your priorities are, in my opinion, misplaced. I also come from a family that is very patriotic and passes that down to each generation.

[Lex_Luthor]

My fiance had to have permanent residency first, as a step to becoming a citizen. She's the last one in her family to qualify, I think hers is a period of 5 or 6 years. Everyone in her [immediate] family are citizens, and she's basically waiting to accumulate $700 or so to take the test.... Or to marry me.

[CMP_5.56]

I know it is a long process, but I agree with it being one. I don't think it should cost you an ARM and a leg though either. On the other side of the coin, I feel high school grads should have to be able to pass the same test that we make immigrants pass. You should know all the knowledge any person seeking citizenship has to or not get your diploma. The lack of historical and political knowledge of today high school grad is appalling. And we all know, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

[MrPrena]

I guess shop owner has rights to sell it to whoever they want to.
However, discriminations CAN BE costly.

[CMP_5.56]

I guess shop owner has rights to sell it to whoever they want to.
However, discriminations CAN BE costly.

Yes it can be, look at what all the astronomical amount of civil suits have cost this country already. Everyone wants to sue for something. And now we have prices on all things in this country almost out of reach due to companies covering their ass.

They have it posted that they reserve the right to refuse anyone for any reason. Hard to fight that. I think we need to change the name of the "race card" too the discrimination card. I'm a fat ass and have had plenty of times I've been"discriminated" against because of it. But I'm not one to get up in arms over someone else's opinion of me.

[sneakerd]

Imho- any shop owner, especially a gun shop owner, has the inherent RIGHT to discriminate. How often do you see the sign in the window of the 7-11 "No shirt- no shoes- no service". That is discrimination. Good luck trying to sue a gun shop owner for making the decision- and posting it if necessary, that they will only sell firearms to US citizens.

[Irving]

CMP 5.56, if your citizenship was revoked through some atrocious file room mishap, and you didn't find out about it for months, you'd feel the exact same way when you woke up every morning.

Also, it's a lot easier to pay $90 every ten years than it is to pay for all the testing and other stuff that goes along with getting to become a citizen.

[sneakerd]

[Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Mad][AR15]

[Elhuero]

personally I think it's bloody awesome that there are so many here that are not natural born citizens of the U.S.

I am a natural born citizen of the U.S.

you know what difference that makes? Not a damn bit!

I raise my glass to my AMERICAN brothers! [Beer]

[CMP_5.56]

CMP 5.56, if your citizenship was revoked through some atrocious file room mishap, and you didn't find out about it for months, you'd feel the exact same way when you woke up every morning.

Also, it's a lot easier to pay $90 every ten years than it is to pay for all the testing and other stuff that goes along with getting to become a citizen.

If my citizenship was revoked, instead of crying to everyone around me, i would produce the documents that show I was born in this country, to natural born citizen parents and be on my way. What I wouldn't do is wake up every morning feeling sorry for myself and looking for someone to blame. I would fight regain my citizenship.

And I do agree with you, it is easier to pay $90 every ten years. It is easier to take that path. Thankfully this country was founded by men who chose to take the path less traveled, the harder path. Cop outs are for the weak. I would say it is a good weeding out process.

[CMP_5.56]

personally I think it's bloody awesome that there are so many here that are not natural born citizens of the U.S.

I am a natural born citizen of the U.S.

you know what difference that makes? Not a damn bit!

I raise my glass to my AMERICAN brothers! [Beer]

I agree with that statement. And like previously stated, I have many friends born on foreign soil that were proud to become citizens. Though none of them yelled discrimination on anybody. They put in the time and effort and money to gain their citizenship.

Remember, I'm also the guy that thinks all high school students should have to take and pass the same tests before they are allowed to graduate.

[jake]

So I ask others that choose to come and stay here, but not become a citizen, why not? To me the only thing I can think of is wanting the rights, freedoms, and privileges of being a citizen without the responsibilities. Not too mention an easy exit out of this country in the event things don't go there way.
My mother-in-law is Danish, and has lived in this country for about fifty years. She's still a permanent resident and although I can only speculate as to her reasons for remaining so before I married her daughter, her reason while I have known her is because Denmark prohibits dual citizenship and she wanted to retain that connection with her former home.

I can understand her point of view: I love living here and can't ever imagine moving back to the UK, but it is where I was born and raised and if dual citizenship wasn't an option for me then I probably wouldn't have considered citizenship at least until my parents were no longer around.

As for the idea of dodging responsibilities of citizenship, as a PR I paid taxes every year and would have willingly served this country in whatever capacity I could during a crisis (I suppose unless I'd been interned during the full scale invasion that Queen Elizabeth and David Cameron have been planning for 2012... but I've said too much!).

Other than serving on a jury or voting (which I would consider a privilege as well as a responsibility, so the disadvantage for me would outweigh the benefit) I'm not sure what other responsibilities I would have been avoiding.

[CMP_5.56]

Jake, you covered what see as responsibilities. And I see some peoples point of view, but I would never leave a country I was born in to live elsewhere unless I loved that country more than my homeland. And I see things different than most. If I was going to be a citizen in another country I would learn the language and laws and do whatever it took to gain my citizenship.

[KevDen2005]

personally I think it's bloody awesome that there are so many here that are not natural born citizens of the U.S.

I am a natural born citizen of the U.S.

you know what difference that makes? Not a damn bit!

I raise my glass to my AMERICAN brothers! [Beer]


That is awesome and I agree wholeheartedly. I will join you [Beer]

[mcantar18c]

Jake, you covered what see as responsibilities. And I see some peoples point of view, but I would never leave a country I was born in to live elsewhere unless I loved that country more than my homeland. And I see things different than most. If I was going to be a citizen in another country I would learn the language and laws and do whatever it took to gain my citizenship.

I agree with you 100% CMP, I see absolutely no reason to move to another country permanently and then not want to become a citizen.
However, I don't see what responsibilities one would dodge by becoming a PR instead. In fact, it seems like it would give you all the responsibilities without some of the benefits.
My dad is from Toronto, has been living here for almost 40 years now with no intention to ever move back but is still a Canadian citizen. I've never asked as he and I don't talk about much in the first place, but I've wondered many times why he hasn't applied for citizenship. He pays all the taxes that you and I do, contributes just as much to our country as any working, tax paying citizen does, however he can't vote in elections, serve on a jury, etc. While I don't see any reason for him to keep himself in that position, I don't think he's avoiding any responsibilities by doing so.
As a natural born citizen of the US, I see voting and jury duty as a responsibility. But for somebody that immigrated here, I think its more of a privilege than a responsibility or a right.

[CMP_5.56]

I agree with you 100% CMP, I see absolutely no reason to move to another country permanently and then not want to become a citizen.
However, I don't see what responsibilities one would dodge by becoming a PR instead. In fact, it seems like it would give you all the responsibilities without some of the benefits.
My dad is from Toronto, has been living here for almost 40 years now with no intention to ever move back but is still a Canadian citizen. I've never asked as he and I don't talk about much in the first place, but I've wondered many times why he hasn't applied for citizenship. He pays all the taxes that you and I do, contributes just as much to our country as any working, tax paying citizen does, however he can't vote in elections, serve on a jury, etc. While I don't see any reason for him to keep himself in that position, I don't think he's avoiding any responsibilities by doing so.
As a natural born citizen of the US, I see voting and jury duty as a responsibility. But for somebody that immigrated here, I think its more of a privilege than a responsibility or a right.

I too see voting and jury duty as responsibilities, as well as signing up for selected service. Those are three big ones I see. And I hate it just as much as people that were born citizens not voting as well. Especially since they be the ones that seem to bitch about it the most.

[Irving]

If my citizenship was revoked, instead of crying to everyone around me, i would produce the documents that show I was born in this country, to natural born citizen parents and be on my way. What I wouldn't do is wake up every morning feeling sorry for myself and looking for someone to blame. I would fight regain my citizenship.



Who is crying about their citizenship?

[Irving]

Jake, you covered what see as responsibilities. And I see some peoples point of view, but I would never leave a country I was born in to live elsewhere unless I loved that country more than my homeland. And I see things different than most. If I was going to be a citizen in another country I would learn the language and laws and do whatever it took to gain my citizenship.

What if you left your birth country when you were 3 years old and the United States was all you've ever known? Are you saying you'd need a piece of paper to reassure you that you love the only place you've ever known as home?

[porfiriozg]

Imho- any shop owner, especially a gun shop owner, has the inherent RIGHT to discriminate. How often do you see the sign in the window of the 7-11 "No shirt- no shoes- no service". That is discrimination. Good luck trying to sue a gun shop owner for making the decision- and posting it if necessary, that they will only sell firearms to US citizens.

that's true, but the state of Colorado is the only one that can or will sell to a permanent resident.

[porfiriozg]

i have the fee schedule and renewal is $290

road to citizenship goes more ore less like this

temporary res status $710

temporary to permanent status $1,370 (i am here)

application for naturalization $595

also you can be denied at any time for any reason
(i was denied for something my father did)

[MrPrena]

Is it that expensive now?
It was so much cheaper back then.....

I've heard exams are getting harder and harder.
It is getting stricter and stricter as well.



i have the fee schedule and renewal is $290

road to citizenship goes more ore less like this

temporary res status $710

temporary to permanent status $1,370 (i am here)

application for naturalization $595

also you can be denied at any time for any reason
(i was denied for something my father did)

[sniper7]

[JRope][JRope][JRope]



this is a thread hijacking.