Using black talon ammo...

[Delphi]

My dad has an few boxes of the original black talon, he knows that they were outlawed because they were sooo effictive. Possibly best ammo... ever period.

He is wondering if it is ok for him to carry those in his concealed carry gun. He was wondering if it would give him coplications if he ever had to shoot somone with it. Or is it just better getting some other good ammo?

[mr_will]

My dad has an few boxes of the original black talon, he knows that they were outlawed because they were sooo effictive. Possibly best ammo... ever period.

He is wondering if it is ok for him to carry those in his concealed carry gun. He was wondering if it would give him coplications if he ever had to shoot somone with it. Or is it just better getting some other good ammo?

you can actually buy the ammo now if you can find it, its not illigal to own to the best of my knowledge.
the ranger ammo is very similar and sometimes called copper talons.

on the other hand, if he has real unopened boxes of black talons i would sell them, those things are bringing a premium

[KarlPMann]

It was never illegal to buy, sell, or own. The manufacturer pulled it because of the stink (this is what we refer to as "they bitched up" :roll: ). You can carry it, or any other good/hot frangible ammo is really just as good. I carry Exploders and Glasers myself. Karl.

[Artyboy]

There's a guy that sells them at every Tanner. They're cheaper than Gold Dots. They're only a little more expensive than the Winchester Ranger.

[mr_will]

i would stick to the rangers, that is a nice round. expands just like the talon but is copper and not black.
the gold dots have a tendancy to be more accurate

[Bumblebee Bob]

As Karl said they were never "outlawed". What happened is the media got it's pretty pink panties in a bunch and threw such a fit about Black Talon's super lethality ( :roll: ) that Winchester dropped the line. However they continued the design without the black finish and a different name.

Now if you dad lives in an area with too many liberal prosecutors if he had to shoot I could see a scumbag lawyer, or prosecutor, bringing up the old Black Talon myths to make you dad seem like some kind of psycho bent on maiming and mutilating the poor "victim." Black Talons have collectors value now. Hold on to them or sell them, but personally I would carry something else now. Besides, how old is that ammo now? I'd also rather carry something a bit fresher.

Just my 2¢ worth

[RYAN50BMG]

My work gun (Beretta Vector 9mm) is loaded up with them, but like mr. will said they are worth more if they are in the factory box. I got mine at an SOF convention for 12$ per 50 in a plain white box.Winchester Ranger is the same ammo, just not black. Ryan

[PsychoI3oy]

I'll add my two cents to part of the history of the myth of Black Tallons:

There was a company called 'Black Rhino' about the same time Winchester introduced the Black Tallons, and they (BR) claimed that their ammo could go through body armor but still expand as a hollow point. They sent out all sorts of press releases and everyone got crazy. They never manufactured a single bullet, or at least never sent any to anyone (press, LE, FBI, ATF) for testing, but the 'black' part of the name stuck in people's minds and the stigma transfered to Black Talons, a perfectly normal hollowpoint that'd be stopped by Level IIIa (right?) body armor.

The black part of the BTs is, IIRC, teflon coating, which helps lubricate them down the barrel. There are/have been myths about teflon helping the ammo go through soft body armor, as well. The only really nasty thing about BT is the 'talons' which are just the tips of the petals in the hollowpoint, designed to shred flesh as it spins along in the BG. Nasty, but effective, and more blood loss means badguy goes down quicker.

Winchester Ranger are identical jackets, talons and all, except they don't use teflon, they're just normal copper.

Note that all of the above is from my memory, which ain't the best, but the original information was from various sites on the internet, so take it all with your RDA of sodium.

[Gman]

Winchester Ranger is the same ammo, just not black.If you're looking for the current generation 'Talon', you need to make sure it's the Ranger-T ammo.

The Federal HST also performs similarly to the Talon with its sharp edges when the jacket peels back.

I like Speer Gold Dots and they're easier to find.

[Delphi]

Thanks for the info guys... he has about 200 rds 100 in .45 and 100 in 9mm they are yr 2000 mfg.... Still in the black box... basically the last batch ever made....

Right now he is just carrying 9mm regular FMJ.... so i have heard allot of different options here

Any opinion on whats definatly the best if he doesnt mind price? For shooting he just uses FMJ a couple boxes ought to do it for him even if it's expensive cause he only has to load 1 mag and test fire it so that he's sure it cycles. So really cost doesnt matter that much,

What do you guys think of Federal +p Hydrashocks... i hear it expands to .61" from a 9mm round.....
And what are those Exploders and Glasers that karl is talkin about? Gold dots i have heard they are ok, and reltivly cheap... but again he doesnt mind payin 20-30 a few box's of 20. Or would you guys go with the new Ranger Talon?

[mr_will]

rangers are a nice round and are not to hard to find
winchester ranger and winchester t series are all that i carry anymore

[Gman]

Where do you get your Ranger T ammo? I want to test some out, but I've only been able to find it via mail-order.

Some ballistics info for the Ranger T-series:
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing_t.aspx

Some other goodies regarding effective carry loads:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964

[mr_will]

arctic shooting supply in pueblo has it.

i think that specialty sports in springs sells it, but i think they have it as LEO only ammo. I dont go to that store very often so you may want to call them and ask.

some stores carry it as LEO only. :roll:

[Delphi]

I think i'll advise him to go with the Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)


441 pounds of stopping power.... seems like the best one out there. Good expansion and penetration...

Also i think i'll tell him to hold on to his black talon a bit longer... seems like they are getting priceyer every day!

[mr_will]

what kind of gun is it?
just a warning before you go loading +P+ stuff in it make sure its rated for it. alot pistols are not rated for +P+ ammo

[Gman]

That would be 441 lbs. of muzzle energy which doesn't correlate to any "stopping" value.

The question of whether or not his gun will handle +P+ depends on the make and condition of the gun.

124gr +P would be a safer bet.

[Delphi]

it is a Sig P228 and a Glock 19c

P228 is in Exellent Condition.... practically new.... he has only put a few hundred rounds through it... he babys that thing

Glock 19c brand new, he just got it :) Shot 200 rnds of FMJ through it so far


What do you guys think, can those guns handle Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)? Its not like he would fire hundreds of them through those guns only about 10 through each to see if they cycle and than fill up the rest of the mags incase somthin happens

[mr_will]

both of those are +P+ rated i am pretty sure
but i would still be tempted to stick with +P stuff to save wear and tear on the gun. +P+ ammo beats the living mess out of a handgun
i would look into stiffer recoil springs with that ammo.

[Gman]

The Gold Dot ammo is very low flash. How is the flash on the Ranger ammo?

The reason that I ask is that the Glock 19c is compensated which can make for a hell of a flash in reduced light situations.

[Delphi]

the flash is like 80 i think

plus not to worryed bout the glock
Life time replacement :D

Plus i saw what that one guy did to his glock.... totally insane

[thedave1164]

I prefer the Federal HST ammo right now for carry, and it is $16.99 at Jensens for a 50rd box of 124gr 9mm. $19.99 for 50rd box o 230gr .45ACP+P goodness :cool:

I have read several informal tests using ballistics gel and denim and it out performed the others with all fired into identical medium.

The new uncoated ranger ammo also outperforms the former black talon stuff as well.

[AR Will]

My work gun (Beretta Vector 9mm) is loaded up with them, but like mr. will said they are worth more if they are in the factory box. I got mine at an SOF convention for 12$ per 50 in a plain white box.Winchester Ranger is the same ammo, just not black. Ryan

One of my carry options Beretta 92fs Brigadier with a couple sticks of Black Talons

My other one is a custom built Kimber with a couple sticks of Black Talons