View Full Version : Jose Guerena SWAT Raid Video From Helmet Cam
Mobat555
05-27-2011, 13:10
XP0f00_JMak
They certainly let that siren go off nice and loud.
Byte Stryke
05-27-2011, 13:33
yeah I heard the sirens that sounded like a car alarm, but I didn't hear anyone say "Police!"
did I just miss it?
yeah I heard the sirens that sounded like a car alarm, but I didn't hear anyone say "Police!"
did I just miss it?
Yep, they did a knock & announce. Hard to refute the video...they id's themselves as police + rifle pointed at them = dead guy. We can onlly speculate on his intent but it looks like the PD was doing their job IAW their SOP (Standard Operating Procedures). Shame, I guarantee you none of the officers wanted to pull truggers that day. None of them do. They were put in a tough situitation where they had to make a decision regarding their life or someone else's, instantly. Tough spot to be in. They will most likely be covered by Graham vs. Connor.
Either way, it was a bad day for all involved.
yeah I heard the sirens that sounded like a car alarm, but I didn't hear anyone say "Police!"
did I just miss it?
Video was shot from inside a closed car, so the voices are very muffled. You can hear the siren loudly as presumably it's from the car the video was shot in. Probably a Suburban. And it appears they used a flashbang, which means anything after the bang on wouldn't have been heard.
IMHO cameras are small, lightweight, and cheap enough now that it should be required on every (issued) helmet and gun. All that video goes to court as evidence. The idea that storming in the best way to serve a warrant is crazytown.
H.
I'm still waiting to her what illegal things they found, cause at this time they haven't found shit.
Just because the blow the sirens doesn't mean anything. Like his wife said, she woke him up because people were out side. Probably didn't hear the sirens and went and got his gun. Probably when he figured out it was the cops, they just opened fired because he had a gun.
Cops screwed up big time in my opinion
I'm willing to bet all they had to do was knock on the door and talk to him...but then again they got to justify their budget and training somehow.
Yep, they did a knock & announce. Hard to refute the video...they id's themselves as police + rifle pointed at them = dead guy. We can onlly speculate on his intent but it looks like the PD was doing their job IAW their SOP (Standard Operating Procedures). Shame, I guarantee you none of the officers wanted to pull truggers that day. None of them do. They were put in a tough situitation where they had to make a decision regarding their life or someone else's, instantly. Tough spot to be in. They will most likely be covered by Graham vs. Connor.
Either way, it was a bad day for all involved.
What evidence do you have that they anounced they were police?? Not disputing you just asking.... cause you can't hear it in the video
Mobat555
05-27-2011, 15:07
Yep, they did a knock & announce.
8 seconds of sirens followed by "bang, bang, bang"
17 more seconds of yelling and then kicking in the door
8 more seconds before shots are fired
11 seconds of shots being fired
44 seconds from sirens to death
26 seconds to open the door
Not to mention (http://abcnews.go.com/US/swat-team-gunned-marine-find-drugs/story?id=13702756) "Vanessa Guerena didn't know the men were SWAT officers and thought they might be home invaders, especially because two members of her sister-in-law's family were killed last year in their Tucson home"
Shame, I guarantee you none of the officers wanted to pull truggers that day.
Did you notice that one officer that was far from the door runs up just to get a few shots off? Basically joining the other 5 or 6 officers who stopped in the funnel, possibly shooting over the heads of his teammates, doubtful if he was sure of what was downrange.
I'm still waiting to her what illegal things they found, cause at this time they haven't found shit.
"Many guns" (http://abcnews.go.com/US/swat-team-gunned-marine-find-drugs/story?id=13702756) were found in the house, including the AR15 that Guerena was holding, another rifle, and a handgun. Body armor was also found and a U.S. Border Patrol hat.
Did you notice that one officer that was far from the door runs up just to get a few shots off? Basically joining the other 5 or 6 officers who stopped in the funnel, possibly shooting over the heads of his teammates, doubtful if he was sure of what was downrange.
"Many guns" (http://abcnews.go.com/US/swat-team-gunned-marine-find-drugs/story?id=13702756) were found in the house, including the AR15 that Guerena was holding, another rifle, and a handgun. Body armor was also found and a U.S. Border Patrol hat.
Yeah I noticed that idiot cop in the back that just wanted to say he got a few shots in. He should disciplined at a minimum just for that.
Last I checked "many guns" were not illegal. If they are then 90% of the members here are commiting crimes.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/swat-team-gunned-marine-find-drugs/story?id=13702756
"The SWAT guys are pretty hurt and confused because normally there's great support for them in this community," Storie said and predicted that their actions will ultimately be found to have been justified
What an asshole!! That attorney for the cops is the most arrogant POS I have ever seen. They all shoot a guy and they are "hurt"
KevDen2005
05-27-2011, 15:36
Did you notice that one officer that was far from the door runs up just to get a few shots off? Basically joining the other 5 or 6 officers who stopped in the funnel, possibly shooting over the heads of his teammates, doubtful if he was sure of what was downrange.
.
You can clearly see in the video that he could identify what his gun was pointed at.
And I'm sure if your friends were getting shot at you wouldn't run up and help them out, just let them take all the fire.
I know I know, before it's even going to be said, why would these cops go after that innocent guy, they are really horrible people...
give me a break already.
And I'm sure if your friends were getting shot at you wouldn't run up and help them out, just let them take all the fire.
His friends weren't getting shot at is the sad part.
KevDen2005
05-27-2011, 15:43
[quote=KevDen2005;361004]
And I'm sure if your friends were getting shot at you wouldn't run up and help them out, just let them take all the fire.
quote]
His friends weren't getting shot at is the sad part.
Well when gun fights start it's really hard to tell where they are coming from and instantly you might think that your friends are getting shot at.
If this officer heard "gun" and his friends start shooting then he better get his butt up there and help out instead of hiding behind cover while his friends might be in the middle of the fight. These guys make instant decisions everyone in the world has the rest of their lives to criticize them.
What evidence do you have that they anounced they were police?? Not disputing you just asking.... cause you can't hear it in the video
Turn up the volume and you can hear the officers at the door. They start announcing at :30.
Video was shot from inside a closed car, so the voices are very muffled. You can hear the siren loudly as presumably it's from the car the video was shot in. Probably a Suburban. And it appears they used a flashbang, which means anything after the bang on wouldn't have been heard.
IMHO cameras are small, lightweight, and cheap enough now that it should be required on every (issued) helmet and gun. All that video goes to court as evidence. The idea that storming in the best way to serve a warrant is crazytown.
H.
i agree. might as well cover your ass
Pancho Villa
05-27-2011, 15:55
From the standpoint of the officers: put in a tense, high-stress/pressure situation where their lives may very well be in danger, someone made an understandable mistake that resulted in the death of what looks like an innocent man.
From the standpoint of the legal community at large: Whether you shout "POLICE!" or not as you bang down my door, I have very large incentives to grab a rifle and meet you there. I'm sorry, this isn't to say that I am itching to shoot at DA MAN, its saying that I don't trust an ominous voice busting down my door to be absolutely truthful as to his identity.
Put yourself in that sit: you hear sirens going off, you hear someone busting down your door. Is it SWAT, serving a warrant because you have "many guns"? Or is some guy the cops are chasing looking for a hostage?
You can see how a wrong guess on your part in either direction can easily lead to serious injury or death of you or a loved one.
I think from a larger standpoint, its another symptom of no-win situations that the legal machinery puts both citizens AND SWAT teams in. You can't go in that way not ready to unload on the first thing that looks hostiles; you can't have what appears to be a home invasion and not go for your own weapons. The fact that this is legal in cases where there isn't some compelling reason (bodily harm to an innocent, known armed & very dangerous guy CONFIRMED BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT on the other side of the door, etc) is a black mark on the legal system, not on any particular SWAT team member.
I'd be like if that Bin Laden compound raid went like this:
"We actually aren't sure if this is the compound with Bin Laden in it or if its a national guard training center with everyone dressed up like OPFOR and using AKs. But we're sending you in and expecting that everything is going to work out just fine."
Obviously, it would be asinine and the commander who authorized such a mission would be terminated. But here at home that's about the standard for most SWAT operations.
No flashbang used. Officer at the rear doesn't fire. He presents handgun but does not fire. Other 3 officers in doorway are held there and seem to be engaging (cannot confirm from video). The officers saw this: they turned on lights & sirens, knocked, announced, and rammed the door. Upon entry, they are greeted by a combat veteran with a rifle who targeted them at the fatal funnel. Given that info, I don't blame them. I'm not saying that there weren't mistakes, however Jose Guerena had 44 seconds from sirens to shots (as someone pointed out) to PUT HIS GUN DOWN! If he didn't do it in 44 sec, why would the cops have reason to believe he would do it after 1 min, 5 min, or 5 hours? Given that the neighborhood is known for narcotics trafficing and the growing presence of US and Mexican gang members, both with military experience, I see no fault in their decision. Their tactics were a bit sloppy, but decision givens the situitation were justified.
Lex_Luthor
05-27-2011, 16:04
And who called the raid? Were they sure of their "intelligence" gathered that designated his home to be one of the houses involved in this "major drug investigation"?
Pancho Villa
05-27-2011, 16:05
No flashbang used. Officer at the rear doesn't fire. He presents handgun but does not fire. Other 3 officers in doorway are held there and seem to be engaging (cannot confirm from video). The officers saw this: they turned on lights & sirens, knocked, announced, and rammed the door. Upon entry, they are greeted by a combat veteran with a rifle who targeted them at the fatal funnel. Given that info, I don't blame them. I'm not saying that there weren't mistakes, however Jose Guerena had 44 seconds from sirens to shots (as someone pointed out) to PUT HIS GUN DOWN! If he didn't do it in 44 sec, why would the cops have reason to believe he would do it after 1 min, 5 min, or 5 hours? Given that the neighborhood is known for narcotics trafficing and the growing presence of US and Mexican gang members, both with military experience, I see no fault in their decision. Their tactics were a bit sloppy, but decision givens the situitation were justified.
I would be interested in knowing the facts of the case that precluded:
1. Arresting him at work and then serving a search warrant on his home, either 4 hours before or 12 hours after the raid was actually done (if he is such a danger)
2. Picking him up in his driveway before he goes to work, then serving whatever search warrant they had (again, if he is some dangerous maniac)
or even
3. Knocking on his door politely, announcing that its the police and serving the warrant with several uniformed officers with backup nearby if they feel like there is danger.
All 3 of those options result is 0 dead people, 0 bad blood for the police and a peaceful search of this guy's premises.
Edit: Take a stopwatch (or your phone) out and start it. Think of waking up from a deep sleep after a hard day of work. Sirens. What's going on? no idea. Someone's banging on your door. Is it the cops? Is it some guy the cops are chasing looking for a place to hole up with ready-made hostages? You don't know. Do you hear them shout police? Do you trust that?
The dead guy didn't make any mistakes, either.
I would be interested in knowing the facts of the case that precluded:
1. Arresting him at work and then serving a search warrant on his home, either 4 hours before or 12 hours after the raid was actually done (if he is such a danger)
2. Picking him up in his driveway before he goes to work, then serving whatever search warrant they had (again, if he is some dangerous maniac)
or even
3. Knocking on his door politely, announcing that its the police and serving the warrant with several uniformed officers with backup nearby if they feel like there is danger.
All 3 of those options result is 0 dead people, 0 bad blood for the police and a peaceful search of this guy's premises.
Edit: Take a stopwatch (or your phone) out and start it. Think of waking up from a deep sleep after a hard day of work. Sirens. What's going on? no idea. Someone's banging on your door. Is it the cops? Is it some guy the cops are chasing looking for a place to hole up with ready-made hostages? You don't know. Do you hear them shout police? Do you trust that?
The dead guy didn't make any mistakes, either.
All good points Pancho....I don't think any of the guys in that video had any say in those decisions. Most of those are based upon ther risk assessment matrix. As I said before, bad situitation for everyone involved....
KevDen2005
05-27-2011, 16:23
I would be interested in knowing the facts of the case that precluded:
1. Arresting him at work and then serving a search warrant on his home, either 4 hours before or 12 hours after the raid was actually done (if he is such a danger)
2. Picking him up in his driveway before he goes to work, then serving whatever search warrant they had (again, if he is some dangerous maniac)
or even
3. Knocking on his door politely, announcing that its the police and serving the warrant with several uniformed officers with backup nearby if they feel like there is danger.
All 3 of those options result is 0 dead people, 0 bad blood for the police and a peaceful search of this guy's premises.
Edit: Take a stopwatch (or your phone) out and start it. Think of waking up from a deep sleep after a hard day of work. Sirens. What's going on? no idea. Someone's banging on your door. Is it the cops? Is it some guy the cops are chasing looking for a place to hole up with ready-made hostages? You don't know. Do you hear them shout police? Do you trust that?
The dead guy didn't make any mistakes, either.
I completely agree that those scenarios would be safer if they were options. I don't know whether they were or weren't.
I would be more curious as to see what the cops saw at the door since the video isn't that clear at that point....
I have encountered plenty of people with guns coming to the door in the middle of the night when I pound on it...yes my gun is out and pointed at them, yes i give them verbal commands to drop it, and I identify myself as as the police, and I have not had any of those situations turn deadly, I am sure when OneGuy and the others hop on they will have been in very similar situations that have not turned deadly...A SWAT Raid is much different in many aspects as well.
So Pancho, I completely agree that I would also probably answer my door armed. I just don't know exactly what the police saw, what their intelligence was, and why they conducted the operation that way.
But as said before, I am not going to instantly accuse them of a messed up raid. To me they shot because their lives were in danger and they started the raid with announcements
flan7211
05-27-2011, 16:29
I try to stay out of the LEO threads usually. Lot of friends in the LEO community and showed a few of them this. All agreed that some SWAT Teams are itching for a confrontation. I wouldn't say this was a failure on their part, but the higher ups in the department for not finding a better way to resolve this at the suspect's work or outside the home. I hope if nothing else this unnecessary death of a good marine will prevent it from happening again in the future.
I would be interested in knowing the facts of the case that precluded:
1. Arresting him at work and then serving a search warrant on his home, either 4 hours before or 12 hours after the raid was actually done (if he is such a danger)
2. Picking him up in his driveway before he goes to work, then serving whatever search warrant they had (again, if he is some dangerous maniac)
or even
3. Knocking on his door politely, announcing that its the police and serving the warrant with several uniformed officers with backup nearby if they feel like there is danger.
All 3 of those options result is 0 dead people, 0 bad blood for the police and a peaceful search of this guy's premises.
Edit: Take a stopwatch (or your phone) out and start it. Think of waking up from a deep sleep after a hard day of work. Sirens. What's going on? no idea. Someone's banging on your door. Is it the cops? Is it some guy the cops are chasing looking for a place to hole up with ready-made hostages? You don't know. Do you hear them shout police? Do you trust that?
The dead guy didn't make any mistakes, either.
All good points Pancho....I don't think any of the guys in that video had any say in those decisions. Most of those are based upon ther risk assessment matrix. As I said before, bad situitation for everyone involved....
I think this is just one of those few cases where shit just went wrong in that "perfect storm" kinda way and should be ruled as accidental and left at that. Oddly enough, I have to say both sides acted the way that anyone put in that position would have acted given the circumstances of how it all went down. What I don't agree with is the way the lawyer has been trying to justify the death with the bullshit evidence he mentions they found which were legal guns, body armor, and a hat.
It seems to me, everyone respects the cops (for better or worse, thats a shit situation to make that call in) and everyone respects the Marine (innocent until proven guilty) but the problem is with the higher ups who make the policies and the lawyers who spin this crap.
The cops are probably torn up, I don't blame them, getting the bad taste of being gun-ho gone wrong has to be a bitter pill.
This story should end with a policy change, no more raids unless you have a damn good reason for it. Bet big, loose big. In this case, the price is too high.
Like me chief used to say, risk everything for everything, nothing for nothing. NO need to go in dyanamicly for pot
Pancho Villa
05-27-2011, 18:45
I think this is just one of those few cases where shit just went wrong in that "perfect storm" kinda way and should be ruled as accidental and left at that. Oddly enough, I have to say both sides acted the way that anyone put in that position would have acted given the circumstances of how it all went down. What I don't agree with is the way the lawyer has been trying to justify the death with the bullshit evidence he mentions they found which were legal guns, body armor, and a hat.
I have to disagree. There have been many examples of bad calls. The entire system needs reform. As it stands I think SWAT is deployed way too often as a matter of policy.
When you deploy those kinds of method domestically, you should have rock-solid justification for why not only a warrant has to be served but that lives will be endangered if a door isn't broken down and a team of hardcore operators doesn't roll in right after.
Too often its just "drug-related investigation warrant, use SWAT."
But as said before, I am not going to instantly accuse them of a messed up raid. To me they shot because their lives were in danger and they started the raid with announcements
Every raid where no one is immediately in danger is a "messed up raid."
Byte Stryke
05-27-2011, 19:42
tried not making any decisions or comments one way or the other... but the Bullshit about trying to paint him as some sort of vigilante Militia gun-nut is pure unadulterated ass-cover.
Propaganda
Spin
Sounds to me like someone screwed the pooch and if we can show we got a bad guy off the street, no one will care we did a home invasion on the wrong guy.
Just my opinion... but the constitution is dead and they had no cause in my eyes to perform the invasion.
There was no imminent or immediate threat.
I can see what they might say about a breach into my home.
"He had a Military style assault rifle, Multiple handguns, a gas Mask and 2 military style canteens... Surely he was a domestic terrorist."
trlcavscout
05-27-2011, 20:09
With the fake police raids made by the cartels I dont blame him for being armed, why he didnt take a few with him?
It's easy to armchair quarterback this whole deal after the fact; easy to say "you could have done this or that." None of us were there in their shoes: the cops or Jose Guerena's. Everyone in that ordeal could have done something different. The cops could have yelled louder, the Lt's with the PD could have pick him up somewhere else, Jose could have put the gun down. If any of those would have happened, people would be complaining: "Those cops don't have to yell, why did they arrest me at work so I lose my job," or "why can't I point guns at cops in MY house?" It's part of the trade off; no security with having the possability of them coming to your house. No raids at houses without getting arrested elsewhere. No people to protect you without the errors that come with people. Again, bad day for all involved and several lessons learned.
agent-smith
05-27-2011, 21:25
If cops continue to treat civilians as armed enemy combatants, it is only a matter of time before us civilians start viewing cops in the same light.
bobbyfairbanks
05-27-2011, 22:50
Armchair Quarterbacks, all of you. I try to read these posts sometimes but everyone is a expert on what the SWAT is doing or not doing. It is very funny. These threads are made up of what we would call in the Army as Barracks Lawyers. In any rate enjoy the discussion [Beer]
Byte Stryke
05-27-2011, 23:46
Armchair Quarterbacks, all of you.
Go piss up a rope
I asked a question and then posted my opinion of the administrations follow-up
flan7211
05-28-2011, 00:05
Go piss up a rope
I asked a question and then posted my opinion of the administrations follow-up
I second that shit. It's an opinion driven thread.
Is disagreeing with the entire concept of a raid where no one is in immediate danger arm chair quarter backing? If your job is to bust into a house with guns drawn, and the first thing you see is a person with a firearm, you shoot them. That's how you are trained. Doesn't change the idea that the raid shouldn't have taken place though.
Armchair Quarterbacks, all of you. I try to read these posts sometimes but everyone is a expert on what the SWAT is doing or not doing. It is very funny. These threads are made up of what we would call in the Army as Barracks Lawyers. In any rate enjoy the discussion [Beer]
whenever the police screw up one of the many apologistic defenses used is the "well, you're not a cop so you just don't know"
that is usually quickly followed by the "you're just jealous because you'd never make the grade" tack.
so what if he was holding a rifle, why didn't they tackle him and effect the arrest?
if thru the door he had opened up, by all means shoot him 60 times.
he didn't shoot any police, the police should not have shot him.
wearing the badge and taking the risk is part of the job. mowing someone down because he just might hurt an officer is taking officer safety too far.
if I did the same thing I would go to jail for life.
lead_magnet
05-28-2011, 02:22
This is just a dangerous situation, and a stupid one at that if you ask me. There have been several instances where "bad guys" have pretended to be LEO's and SWAT and gone into peoples homes only to rape/kill/steal etc. because the occupants disarmed themselves thinking they were the real deal.
It puts a guy in a though spot, if your door ever does get kicked in and men rush in yelling "police" ... is that the police? You're faced with a really shitty decsion. If you give up, you could be doing the right thing, or you might have given up the last chance you had to defend your wife and kids. If you fight, you might wrongfully kill a cop just doing his job, or you might off one of these phoney scumbags.
I've almost begin to wonder if these SWAT home entry tactics are still valid in this day-and-age. The only reasons I could see needing this type of entry are hostage situations or other situations where HUMAN LIFE may be lost, not EVIDENCE. To break down someones door because if you don't they MIGHT have the chance to destroy evidence, flush drugs, etc. Thats just stupid, it puts the cops in a bad spot, puts the public in a bad spot. How can you justify using this ammount of force on potential innocent people when there is no urgent need to save life or prevent harm?
lead_magnet
05-28-2011, 02:30
on a side note, the syren thing was a good idea, good way of identifing themselves as the real deal. I've seen alot of departments sneak up, stand in line and down goes the door. Then they "announce" by yelling at the top of thier lungs "police, down on the floor" "get down" yadda yadda, the problem is, they are all yelling over eachother and in the heat of the moment I wouldn't hear a word of that crap. The siren should be mandentory, or some other means of properly identifying. The "RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE" crap doesn't work for me.
KevDen2005
05-28-2011, 04:05
Go piss up a rope
I asked a question and then posted my opinion of the administrations follow-up
This thread took an immediate U-Turn...
I kinda got a kick out of this...and will also be using your insult in the future...
Byte Stryke
05-28-2011, 06:23
on a side note, the syren thing was a good idea, good way of identifing themselves as the real deal. I've seen alot of departments sneak up, stand in line and down goes the door. Then they "announce" by yelling at the top of thier lungs "police, down on the floor" "get down" yadda yadda, the problem is, they are all yelling over eachother and in the heat of the moment I wouldn't hear a word of that crap. The siren should be mandentory, or some other means of properly identifying. The "RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE" crap doesn't work for me.
Two Words
Car Alarm
This thread took an immediate U-Turn...
I kinda got a kick out of this...and will also be using your insult in the future...
Feel free
I am finding that I am being quoted more and more...
(disconnect from Kevden's post here)
As for the rest of it, we dont always agree here. I get that.
but to invalidate someones opinions and relegate them to "armchair whatever" is just pompous and rude.
Who the hell died and made you supreme forum member. Not seeing your name in red... so guess what, you are not in charge.
as for me being an "Armchair quarterback" about SWAT tactics, not trying. What I am doing is pointing out that no knocks or violent invasions are becoming the norm for some seriously minor bullshit. Then when it turns to an "oops, he didnt have any Drugs, WTF Do we use to justify Shooting a man inside of his home in front of his Family?"
He had a Gun...
Fucking REALLY?
why not say
" The Homeowner had a tomato!"
Both are equally illegal.
and 60 times?
I think I read in another thread where a Shopkeep of one sort or another is being Imprisoned for shooting a Man 5 times after he went down.
Something tells me this guy (Jose) probably went down after 30
Where is the justification for the other 30? why is a cop not going to prison for that?
I would deem that a bit excessive...
why is no one accountable for the fucked up home invasion?
agent-smith
05-28-2011, 06:41
Armchair Quarterbacks, all of you.
Go fuck yourself.
There isn't anything "armchair quarterbacking" with being concerned about State-sponsored thugs murdering a citizen that by all accounts did not break any laws.
It bears repeating -
If cops continue to treat civilians as armed enemy combatants, it is only a matter of time before us civilians start viewing cops in the same light.
flan7211
05-28-2011, 07:06
Go fuck yourself.
There isn't anything "armchair quarterbacking" with being concerned about State-sponsored thugs murdering a citizen that by all accounts did not break any laws.
It bears repeating -
If cops continue to treat civilians as armed enemy combatants, it is only a matter of time before us civilians start viewing cops in the same light.
Whoa! In before the lock.
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