View Full Version : Why do people have to make problems?
So found this vid:
Ifv5qfuXmKQ
after looking at the case of Mark Fiorino in Philadelphia (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/21/altercation-philadelphia-police-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/?test=latestnews). This guy records the conversation with Maine PD and continues to argue, peacefully but still making problems and generally not cooperating, with LEOs. His responses sound almost robotic as if he was going off of what someone told him to say. Granted, his argument against is that they had no right, but you can save yourself a lot of trouble if you just cooperate a bit and be polite and courteous.
DeusExMachina
06-01-2011, 14:35
Because they are bored with their lives.
"Am I free to go then?"
I agree with him, but you don't have to go looking to be a dick to police.
Also, police can ask you for your name and address but you don't have to provide ID unless you're being arrested...so he could've gotten in trouble (or maybe he did, I couldn't listen anymore) for refusing to tell them his name.
Because they are bored with their lives.
"Am I free to go then?"
I agree with him, but you don't have to go looking to be a dick to police.
Indeed. It just seems to me like he wanted to go out and record this and make it a point to be some difficult and abrasive person to an officer just doing his job. Okay we get it, you don't want to surrender your ID. I've had a buddy pulled over for speeding and the cop asked if he would surrender his weapon during the duration of the traffic stop (which law says they can here in CO) and my buddy responded "Careful sir, it's locked and loaded." Best response ever when the cop press checked it, "Doesn't do much good if it's not."
DeusExMachina
06-01-2011, 14:46
That would make me really nervous. How did he surrender it to the officer?
Just a couple thoughts; Some Open Carry advocates are practicing Civil Obedience. They are looking for ways to make a point and informing others who may be interested in their cause. They themselves are often well educated on specific laws, where most cops are required to have a broader knowledge of laws. This often ends up showing that some cops don't know the specific laws regarding Open Carry.
IMO the two officers in this recording handled the stop about as well as they could. They could have just stopped questioning the guy as soon as he made it obvious what he was doing. He was out trolling for audio of cops so that he could post it on the internet. On a personal note, when people invoke their right to remain silent, the rest of the contact should be fairly quiet. This audio was a good example of how often people continue to talk after they insist that they want to remain silent.
If it is legal in a particular jurisdiction to Open Carry, and a person is so inclined, by all means do so. Be well informed of your rights and have a plan of action when contacted by other citizens or the po-po. You have no control over how other people will react, so you should be prepared for many different scenarios and be nimble enough in your thinking to deal with the many more scenarios you didn't think of ahead of time.
I prefer to not announce what I have (or don't have) on my person. Consider it like not pulling out a big wad of cash late at night while walking down any city street. It may be legal but not what I personally consider a wise course of action.
Just my $.02
ghettodub
06-01-2011, 15:03
The guy was being a bit of a dick to the cop. That's my only thought on the matter. That's almost like an intellectual showing off how smart they are by being smug. Just show him your ID and shut up. Let the cop get on his way and deal with real criminals, and not an annoying twat like this guy. Just my .02. Not really worth fighting a cop on this.
cstone, good points, and I've heard so many cases where people say they're going to exercise their right to remain silent, then what do they do? Dig themselves a hole by talking. Even if they haven't been Mirandized the officer can still report what took place in their little talk. And yes, just because it's legal doesn't always make it smart. Open carry is in fact a good crime deterrent, and most LEOs I know acknowledge the fact that criminals don't open carry, but don't be an a** about it and try to expose some LEO because he isn't a walking Law dictionary. I don't like how this guy went around recording any conversations he had with police just to try and say he was experiencing his rights being slightly violated.
Constitutional Rights are like virginity; they are intact or not. I don't believe either can be slightly violated. Of course there are courts and doctors who make those types of determinations upon further examination [ROFL1]
Constitutional Rights are like virginity; they are intact or not. I don't believe either can be slightly violated. Of course there are courts and doctors who make those types of determinations upon further examination [ROFL1]
True... okay rephrase- Some policeman infringing on his rights.
I had a retired cop tell me something along similar lines: "Police officer is a lot like gynecologist, the job sounds awesome, but then you get it and you really aren't getting the hot action you originally thought." [ROFL1]
A guy with a cause, his cause is to post a YouTube video about how much of a gun advocate he is. While his points are valid, this was all an unnecessary encounter. It's time to get defensive if and when the LEO might push the issue beyond a reasonable measure and asking for ID isn't it.
You are not required to carry or provide papers or ID in The United Sates of America.
You are required to carry a valid license when you operate a motor vehicle. And unless an LEO thinks a crime has been committed, they have no right to detain anyone.
You are not required to carry or provide papers or ID in The United Sates of America.
You are required to carry a valid license when you operate a motor vehicle. And unless an LEO thinks a crime has been committed, they have no right to detain anyone.
Correction, unless you live in AZ [ROFL2]
That's true... although I never leave home without my license (or everything else in my wallet for that matter), I still am relatively comfortable that if I don't have any form of ID it's not that big of deal unless I'm drinking, or driving (but never both at the same time)... but I do fear that Gestapo tactics are not far around the corner one day.
bobbyfairbanks
06-02-2011, 11:24
You are not required to carry or provide papers or ID in The United Sates of America.
You are required to carry a valid license when you operate a motor vehicle. And unless an LEO thinks a crime has been committed, they have no right to detain anyone.
Good!
I think he was bating the cops and is not helping out gun owners at all. Open carry is the least preferred method of carry but if it is all you got so be it. If your gonna do at least carry in a proper holster and for f sake just tell the cop your name. What harm is that.
I did notice the cop say she was a peace officer. I wonder if she really is or if she knows the difference between a peace officer and a LEO
mackbamf
06-10-2011, 20:05
Agreed that they are within their rights to open carry and are not breaking the law. That being said in my opinion they are giving gun owners a bad name. Walking around in public displaying a weapon is going to attract the attention of your fellow citizens and law enforcement, everybody knows that. To that end it is for good reason that you are going to be confronted. If you saw somebody walking around your neighborhood with a gun you would probably also say to yourself 'what the f*ck is that guy doing?' Would you then just stand by while a stranger with a displayed weapon was approaching your wife and children without knowing his intention? I would say any responsible gun owner would not display their weapon as a tool to instigate a confrontation with the police. I understand that it is a slippery slope with government infringing upon our rights and that you have to draw the line at some point. I just think that in this instance the line isn't being drawn in the right location. And I say all of this being pro gun.
And I say all of this being pro gun.
Apparently not.
To answer your question, I say "What the fuck is that person doing?" when I see anybody in my neighborhood, and I go on alert when anybody approaches my wife and daughter. Also, I wouldn't be all that concerned if the gun is in a holster.
mackbamf
06-10-2011, 20:41
[quote=Irving;367339]Apparently not.
Very much so. Avoiding unnecessary negative attention doesn't make me anti-gun.
Most people are not going to react favorably to someone with a firearm in public and you are more than likely going to elicit that type of resposne. That is the reality of the situation and I think that stoking the fire like the individuals in the video can push gun owners further to the fringe of public opinion, which is what I don't want.
That's how gays felt 25 years ago when they held hands in public. Does anyone even notice now? We need a parade.
I wouldn't go though, because parades are gay.
mackbamf
06-10-2011, 20:53
lol
KevDen2005
06-10-2011, 21:10
That's how gays felt 25 years ago when they held hands in public. Does anyone even notice now? We need a parade.
I wouldn't go though, because parades are gay.
Oh my god I just died laughing
KevDen2005
06-10-2011, 21:18
So found this vid:
Ifv5qfuXmKQ
after looking at the case of Mark Fiorino in Philadelphia (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/21/altercation-philadelphia-police-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/?test=latestnews). This guy records the conversation with Maine PD and continues to argue, peacefully but still making problems and generally not cooperating, with LEOs. His responses sound almost robotic as if he was going off of what someone told him to say. Granted, his argument against is that they had no right, but you can save yourself a lot of trouble if you just cooperate a bit and be polite and courteous.
What a d-bag!
He should be happy that he dealt with a really polite PD, and not a pd that loves to baton people...
I agree with his cause, but at the end of the day it's not worth a night stick to the ass
What a d-bag!
He should be happy that he dealt with a really polite PD, and not a pd that loves to baton people...
I agree with his cause, but at the end of the day it's not worth a night stick to the ass
Exactly... most cops I'm friends with get pretty irritated by people talking back and being rude, so they just sit back and remember every detail, the person's car, the person's name, etc. and when they mess up next time they don't have to let them off with a warning. Anything that can get a ticket the cop will remember how rude and obnoxious they were and just write it, usually they are pretty nice if the person is respectful and decent.
Gcompact30
06-12-2011, 19:26
Why the hell are they carrying guns at the beach anyway... Dumb Asses...... that is why we have it so hard with gun carry laws. It may be their right, but dam, not smart at all in this situation. At least that is just my 2-cents.... I personally would not want anyone to know I am carrying a firearm until I need them to know. Now I guess if there is a bag guy on the beach, the two idiots they see with guns will be shot first....... my 2-cents only.
Byte Stryke
06-12-2011, 20:25
I completely agree... we should hide in the shadows. Don't stand up for your constitutional rights, it will only cause problems.
The less people see people standing up for themselves, the less likely others will.
I give a fuck if they were at a nude beach wearing ONLY their sidearms...
IT IS THEIR RIGHT
You have less of a right to drive your car than they do to carry.
Gcompact30
06-12-2011, 20:31
LOL nude beach [ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3][LOL]
I completely agree... we should hide in the shadows. Don't stand up for your constitutional rights, it will only cause problems.
The less people see people standing up for themselves, the less likely others will.
I give a fuck if they were at a nude beach wearing ONLY their sidearms...
IT IS THEIR RIGHT
You have less of a right to drive your car than they do to carry.
Thread full of God damned collaborators. Sad.
Byte Stryke
06-13-2011, 06:14
Replace the word Gun with the word cellphone in this video.
both are equally legal to have in your possession.
Truth be told, you do not have a specific Constitutional RIGHT to have a cellphone... But you do have for a firearm.
So now replay that video in your head and you will see how stupid it really is for the cop to even have detained him as long as he did.
I Swear to God, one of these days I am calling the cops and reporting "Man with a cucumber sandwich!"
I Swear to God, one of these days I am calling the cops and reporting "Man with a cucumber sandwich!"
Byte - I'd like to report a man with a cucumber sandwich!
Dispatcher - What is he doing with it?
Byte - Eating it!
Dispatcher - Could you stand by at your present location. We will have an officer on scene make contact with you in approximately... four days. Thank you for waiting. [ROFL1]
Byte Stryke
06-14-2011, 06:43
Byte - I'd like to report a man with a cucumber sandwich!
Dispatcher - What is he doing with it?
Byte - Eating it!
Dispatcher - Could you stand by at your present location. We will have an officer on scene make contact with you in approximately... four days. Thank you for waiting. [ROFL1]
But as I am not British I am alarmed and scared.
he is using it in a threatening manner!
I gotta go with stryke on this. There's no law against being an a hole which this kid obviously is. If the cops have no legal reason to stop you, "confirming" your identity is just fishing.
I gotta go with stryke on this. There's no law against being an a hole which this kid obviously is. If the cops have no legal reason to stop you, "confirming" your identity is just fishing.
I've had something like that- Loitering in a "no no loitering" area (if there is no sign it's not illegal) waiting for a friend to show. The LEO pulled in, turned on his lights, we were just sitting on my bumper and the Deputy asked for mine and my friend's ID. Here's how it went:
JCSO Deputy: "May I see some ID?"
Me: "What for?"
JCSO: "So I may know who you are."
Me: "Have we broken any laws?"
JCSO: "No, but I would like to know who you are?"
Me: "Why do you need to know who I am? Is there a criminal or fugitive who matches my description?"
JCSO: "No, but sir I would like to see some ID."
Me: "Respectfully I do not wish to disclose that information if no crime has been committed."
JCSO: "Well, you sitting in this parking lot is suspicious activity and I would like to identify you to remove any unwarranted suspicion."
Me: "Sitting in a parking lot waiting for someone is suspicious? We aren't doing anything suspect, we're waiting for someone. How is us waiting in a well lit public place suspicious?"
JCSO: "Where are you going when your party arrives?"
Me: "No where that is of any concern to you."
JCSO: "Well I'd still like to see some identification, please."
Me: "I respectfully refuse to show you my ID."
Here's where it gets good, My Friend: [waving hand] "You don't need to see our IDs."
JCSO: [Struggling to hold back laughter] "Fine, you don't want to show your ID then I'll leave you to it. Have a nice night and be safe."
Me: "Thank you, Deputy. You be safe too."
That was that. Being nice, respectful, and your friend having a great sense of humor can easily defuse a potential harassment situation.
Here's where it gets good, My Friend: [waving hand] "You don't need to see our IDs."
JCSO: [Struggling to hold back laughter] "Fine, you don't want to show your ID then I'll leave you to it. Have a nice night and be safe."
Damn is that funny! [Beer]
Damn is that funny! [Beer]
Oh I left out after the deputy left I looked over at my buddy and said "These aren't the droids you're looking for."
glenncal1
06-14-2011, 14:29
Let's see the guy has committed no crime, the officers claim somebody called because they were suspicious, they needed to see his ID so they could verify that he wasn't suspicious. If that isn't the description of a police state I don't know what is.
I applaud the guy for sstanding up for his rights, I don't think he was impolite or being an a-hole. He even said he would show his id if they were giving him a summons.
ronaldrwl
06-14-2011, 16:22
Good for him. Standing up for his rights which are almost gone. So close to being gone hardly anybody even knows what he is doing is legal.
I have no problem with what this guy did. I fully support the open carry movement. It's BS that someone can be detained because someone else called the police on them because they are carrying a gun. It's our fundamental right.
The more I think about this the more I believe this is like the civil rights movement of the 50's and 60's. This is a good thing. If some soccer mom wants to get her panties in a wad over me carrying a gun (no I don't open carry and probably never will), fine, but she won't be able to get the police to harass me.
If this stuff ever gets a pass by SCOTUS, places like NY, Chicago and California are going to be so screwed, and I will be so damn happy about it. Nothing like sticking it to those GD statist so called liberals.
An Armed Society Is A Polite Society. ;)
I have no problem with what this guy did. I fully support the open carry movement. It's BS that someone can be detained because someone else called the police on them because they are carrying a gun. It's our fundamental right.
The more I think about this the more I believe this is like the civil rights movement of the 50's and 60's. This is a good thing. If some soccer mom wants to get her panties in a wad over me carrying a gun (no I don't open carry and probably never will), fine, but she won't be able to get the police to harass me.
If this stuff ever gets a pass by SCOTUS, places like NY, Chicago and California are going to be so screwed, and I will be so damn happy about it. Nothing like sticking it to those GD statist so called liberals.
An Armed Society Is A Polite Society. ;)
You know, that's a good point... I think it about it more and more, and have only carried open maybe twice... I think back and realize I was a bit nervous about it the first time (more because people would look at me and see I'm armed and I'm not sure how they'd react), but that was silly of me. I should carry with pride and damn the man if they can't accept me practicing my RIGHTS. We take so many things for granted these days and this is one thing we should support 110%. If I get hassled by a cop, I won't be an asshole, I'll just politely tell him that I'm practicing my rights, not hurting a soul, and that he need not worry about what I may or may not do. If anything I'd be the first to help him in a situation, because 2 guns are better than one- although he'd probably tell me to not get involved and leave the area.
Chad4000
06-23-2011, 14:06
I have zero problem with what the guy did. I would actually say, we have NO obligation not to be dicks to cops... Especially when purposely being harassed...
Byte Stryke
06-23-2011, 14:47
we should all show up at/near polling places and report suspicious groups of people moving in and out of the buildings... it could be linked to Al-queda!
akguy1985
06-23-2011, 18:24
First of all I respect police for the job they do, I wouldn't want to deal with people like they do but they are here to serve US, that's their job. This never should have hapenned in the first place. Also whom ever called the PD was ignorant and started drama over nothing. The guy open carrying was within his rights to open carry. Let's not make it complicated with a huge ethical debate. I would also say that if more people open carried this would not be an issue.
Byte Stryke
06-23-2011, 23:05
First of all I respect police for the job they do, I wouldn't want to deal with people like they do but they are here to serve US, that's their job. This never should have hapenned in the first place. Also whom ever called the PD was ignorant and started drama over nothing. The guy open carrying was within his rights to open carry. Let's not make it complicated with a huge ethical debate. I would also say that if more people open carried this would not be an issue.
Or if The cops would have come up and said "Hey, we got a call so we are just here to make happy."
Chad4000
06-24-2011, 00:59
Or if The cops would have come up and said "Hey, we got a call so we are just here to make happy."
Exactly
Post teens playing 'look I've legally got a gun'. This is exactly how NOT to deal with LEOs when they ask you about it, and you should expect they ask you about it, its their job.
But, OTOH, second amendment, and lots of cops don't like common folk with guns, so.... neutral.
SMOGSONE
08-02-2011, 21:06
It's time to get defensive if and when the LEO might push the issue beyond a reasonable measure and asking for ID isn't it.
Asking for and ID for no other reason then the fact the person is open carrying in a place where it is legal, in and of it self is infringing on that persons rights. I would have to say ANY time a persons rights are infringed on in any way (even if slightly) is a good time to get defensive.
I feel stopping me to see my ID because i am carrying a gun to "be sure im not a felon" is about as offensive and out of line as it would be to stop me for ID as I carry my child to be sure im not sex offender.
Asking for and ID for no other reason then the fact the person is open carrying in a place where it is legal, in and of it self is infringing on that persons rights. I would have to say ANY time a persons rights are infringed on in any way (even if slightly) is a good time to get defensive.
I feel stopping me to see my ID because i am carrying a gun to "be sure im not a felon" is about as offensive and out of line as it would be to stop me for ID as I carry my child to be sure im not sex offender.
Welcome, and please post in the new member sign in... as for your logic, spot on! I would get on the defensive a bit too if a LEO asked for my ID when he doesn't need to (pretty much anything that isn't a traffic stop).
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