View Full Version : New to AR so be gentle
CUatTheEnd
07-10-2011, 16:43
Ok, so after reading some "stuff" online, general rule is to have the VFG as close to the mag as possible per your comfort level and if you are using a AFG then you want it further on the handgaurd as possible? Is this somewhat accurate? I know...I know, everyone is different to and set up what works for me.
Which leads me to my next questions. Again, reading and is this consdiered "an unwritten rule or cardinal sin like in baseball" not to have both? Why? Redundant? Weight? If you want the VFG close to the mag and the AFG furthest away why not use both? Or just "not right and goofy as hell looking"?
Is one is used for close combat (VFG) and one for long range (AFG) i.e. competitions?
I did a google seach (pictures) for AR with AFG and VFG and there is one that has this set up. Just wanted to get everyone else's thoughts. Or is all this just a myth (close with the VFG and far for the AFG)?
Thanks and don't "rip" me too much. Just trying to run some intel from the experts. [Beer]
I admit I am new to AR's as well. I have always read that VFG's are supposed to be further away from the mag. The further away the better the support. Correct me if I am wrong.
mcantar18c
07-10-2011, 17:05
Why have both?
Because you don't need either... one is pointless, two is dumb.
Train train train. You can do better with a completely stock AR, non-chrome'd bore, standard handguard, standard sights, and none of the fancy crap if you know how to use it, than you can by hanging every tacticool crap you can on the damn thing.
Sure, there are certain aftermarket parts, like an AFG, that a well trained individual can benefit from... but its the training that makes you good, NOT the equipment.
My advice, invest in ammo and as many training courses from the best schools you can find as you can. Then, AFTER you know how to use your weapon (and I don't mean printing nice neat groupings on paper from a stationary position), start modifying it to work well for you.
CUatTheEnd
07-10-2011, 17:13
Thanks for the input Mcantar18c. Just looking for some honest answers, not trying to "stir the pot" or "piss anyone off" by any means. I am not looking to do one or the other or both, I just want some experienced feedback that's it. Appreciate it. Just some curiosity on my part I suppose.
AirbornePathogen
07-10-2011, 17:14
I had my VFG about as close to the mag well as possible, but I moved it forward to about the middle of the handguard before my last range trip, and it works a lot better for me there. Figure out which grip works best for you, and mounted where, and go with it.
By the way, I think this forum is the most laid back you can get. I wouldnt worry about getting "ripped" for asking a question. We are all friends here and I have yet to see anyone get trashed for asking a newb question. Ask away! [Beer]
CUatTheEnd
07-10-2011, 17:46
Yeah eveyone on here has been great since I got into or back into guns whichever you want to call it. I put "ripped" in as a security net incase there was a loose cannon. [Beer]
I absolutely agree with training before equipment upgrades. And In my opinion VFG is in my way.
Byte Stryke
07-10-2011, 18:36
friggin' noobs
[ROFL1]
TwoSevenEcho
07-10-2011, 18:49
Great question "CUAtTheEnd"... and some good/experienced responses!
My feelings on the VFG/AFG/Plastics
first, buy what you want, unless the .mil gives it to you, its yours to play with.
Keeping the VFG close has a few benefits, if you are in a career or role in which you have to keep your gun up for extended periods, having your off hand pivot point as close to the body as possible reduces exertion due to the location of the second pivot point. Try it with your gun, hold your gun up with your hand near the mag well, time it. Try again later with your hand out under the front sight. I can tell you which you will be able to last longer for. The second benefit is weapon retention in close quarters, two fists is better than a fist and a pad, sort-of.
The counter to this is fittingly the opposite. keeping the off-hand close helps keep the gun "up." Keeping the off-hand far out keeps the gun "down." This will be best suited to firearms used in event like 3-gun with large volumes of fire being laid out with frequent follow ups needing good accuracy, but during which fatigue shouldn't be your greatest concern.
As to both. Most will tell you, you're best served by learning one way of using your rifle. "fear the man with one rifle" because he probably knows how to use it, especially if he uses it the same way every time. If I was tempted to use both, I would just go with plastics. Personally, I have run all sorts of variations over the years and many thousands of rounds. Most times, I end up back with standard plastic hand guards, the weight reduction is really nice, and even with light weight rail I end up slapping crap onto them, it can't be helped, even when you know better.
As to the whole train before you buy, its good advice, but its your hobby, as much as we should all get coaching before we pick up a golf club, many just like to go to the range and hit a few balls. No one says get PGA training to his some putt-putt, and there is no shame in being a putt-putt shooter, guns are fun when you're responsible. The other part I will add is you should spend some time learning what you want out of your new sport before investing into too much training. ARs are not all the same, and shooters don't all shoot the same way. A bunch of the stuff you will see in a Magpul video would get a soldier hit over the head (standing mag changes out of cover, etc.). You need to decide if you want to tear up three gun, protect your family in your house, kill a bunch of paper targets at 600 yards, take a few coyotes, or be ready for the zombies. Then find a coach to help you get there, or not and teach yourself. Welcome to a new world of sport.
As to this website, everyone here is awful friendly, no need to worry about being a terrible n00b.
P.S. if you want to buy stuff, don't buy crap, you will be very tempted, but you will regret it (don't ask how I know). Save your pennies, buy good stuff.
CUatTheEnd
07-10-2011, 19:10
Thanks BigMat. Very helpful, insightful and great info. Appreciate it.
As far as placement goes, the mantra I always heard for the VFG was 2 rail spaces behind where your hand normally sits. For the AFG, slightly forward or exactly where you normally hold the weapon.
The AFG is supposed to increase accuracy by pushing the stock into the shoulder more, but also to keep the arm in a more natural position to keep more comfort. I'm not too up to date on my biomechanics so I don't know if the second is true, but IMO a VFG is more comfortable. I don't have either on my rifle though, the VFG is just so damn ugly [Tooth].
Byte Stryke
07-10-2011, 21:13
in all honesty I see it as a personal preference.
try em all and then do what suits you.
there is no right or wrong as some would have you believe. Its your life, your choice and ultimately your liability if shit goes bad.
in all honesty I see it as a personal preference.
try em all and then do what suits you.
there is no right or wrong as some would have you believe. Its your life, your choice and ultimately your liability if shit goes bad.
This.
I use a VFG, mainly because it's what I trained with and have muscle memory for from .mil. I'm used to it, comfortable with it, and it works for me. Everyone is different and it's all about preference really. Some hammer in certain types of stances/training/techniques, but I say if it's comfortable and you like it: do it. I learned there really is no right/wrong way to set your weapon up. Some like 3-point slings, some like 1-pt, other's like standard 2-pt... it's all preference and what you want/like. I'm not comfortable shooting from an AFG stance, I like my VFG somewhere slightly back from mid point on my handguard. Others say this is too close, some say too far away, it's what I like, if they don't like it they can go out and spend $3000 on a weapon and set it all up they way they want.
If you don't know, try both and see which one fits you best. As an analogy, I think of the last season of Top Shot, where the oriental guy used the old "cup and saucer" grip on handguns and was constantly ridiculed and mocked for it, yet he was able to shoot the wings off a nat using that grip. The moral of the story is that if whatever you do works for YOU then don't spend time worrying about what others do - they may be a better shot than you because of practice or training, not simply their VFG/AFG.
CUatTheEnd
07-11-2011, 12:22
Thanks guys, I've tried both, very limited but I really like both. There is not one that I just say "wow that's just weird feeling" or "I don't like that."
Obviously I will shoot with it more and more and find what works best, maybe even both? I have not been trained one way or another, I'm about as raw as they come when it comes to shooting a AR. Growing up I did a lot of rifle hunting, which I know is not an AR but have at least I have something under my belt.
Appreciate the advise everyone. Very helpful. Just need to get out and shoot more (like all of us I suppose). Thanks again guys! [Beer]
VFG...AFG...WTF? Friggin' acronyms....
leatherneck448
07-11-2011, 14:08
seeing as the AFG was made so that people could have a dedicated accessory that they could put on their rifles, that would replicate/enhance the way they would hold their rifles if they had a VFG mounted (i.e. chris costa, magpul dynamics) , I dont really see the difference between an AFG and a stubby VFG...... Just buy what you think is comfortable, and works for you....
example:
VFG
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm156/leatherneck448/4056259324_c42e2ce1c51.jpg
VFG
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm156/leatherneck448/4106370869_0989e87d071.jpg
AFG
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm156/leatherneck448/afg_91.jpg
see the similarities?
mcantar18c
07-12-2011, 04:40
As to the whole train before you buy, its good advice, but its your hobby, as much as we should all get coaching before we pick up a golf club, many just like to go to the range and hit a few balls. No one says get PGA training to his some putt-putt, and there is no shame in being a putt-putt shooter, guns are fun when you're responsible. The other part I will add is you should spend some time learning what you want out of your new sport before investing into too much training. ARs are not all the same, and shooters don't all shoot the same way. A bunch of the stuff you will see in a Magpul video would get a soldier hit over the head (standing mag changes out of cover, etc.). You need to decide if you want to tear up three gun, protect your family in your house, kill a bunch of paper targets at 600 yards, take a few coyotes, or be ready for the zombies. Then find a coach to help you get there, or not and teach yourself. Welcome to a new world of sport.
-The AR platform is a fighting weapon that some have used for a hobby or toy, not the other way around.
-You don't need an AFG, VFG, rail, etc. for killing paper. If OP's interested in add ons like these, its because he wants the benefits that components like these give you in a fighting weapon, not because they look cool (if he's one of the tards that wants stuff like this because they look cool, he may as well stick airsoft parts on it and get a VFG for each rail).
Going off that, his money is much better spent on some good training, and don't worry about stuff like this till afterward.
Also, take a good look at those pics and where their hands are. A VFG is not a Pistol Grip (not meant to be held like the grip), its a point of reference for your hand and a stop to allow you to pull the gun into your shoulder.
BTW CUatTheEnd, I don't mean to come off as annoyed at the noob or anything, I'm just A) an asshole, so I'm told, and B) tired & cranky. Unless you start acting really stupid we're all generally friendly people here.
Byte Stryke
07-12-2011, 08:04
VFG...AFG...WTF? Friggin' acronyms....
AFG = Angled Foregrip
VFG = Vertical Foregrip
Vertical Foregrip example:
http://www.mechtechsys.com/images/accessories/vertical-grip-full.jpg
Angled Foregrip Example:
http://store.magpul.com/images/uploads/64_335_popup.jpg
hope it helps
AFG = Angled Foregrip
VFG = Vertical Foregrip
Vertical Foregrip example:
http://www.mechtechsys.com/images/accessories/vertical-grip-full.jpg
Angled Foregrip Example:
http://store.magpul.com/images/uploads/64_335_popup.jpg
hope it helps
Thanks Byte I was sooo.... confused[Bang]
Byte Stryke
07-12-2011, 08:45
Thanks Byte I was sooo.... confused[Bang]
rondog had asked
rondog had asked
Ah, thank you sir! I'm so acronym-challenged.....IOW, TIDN (things I don't need).
Carry on.
should I even mention a hand stop (danger close consulting, larue, etc...)?
At least it isn't another acronym...
mcantar18c
07-13-2011, 04:01
CUatTheEnd, check out this article (http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/07/the-fighting-ar15.html)... was trying to paraphrase from it a little in my original post, finally remembered where I found it. Good read for your situation.
A) an asshole, so I'm told
You're not an asshole, you just read Suarez's stuff. That man is intense! I am waiting for him to sell off his sea of AKs and just become an AR vs teeth fanatic. Start some bite-the-shit-out-of-people training!
mcantar18c
07-13-2011, 07:17
You're not an asshole, you just read Suarez's stuff. That man is intense! I am waiting for him to sell off his sea of AKs and just become an AR vs teeth fanatic. Start some bite-the-shit-out-of-people training!
Holy kerap someone here knows who he is [Tooth]
I admit, I have a man crush. The more stuff he puts out, the more I find I'm rethinking everything I thought I knew. Everything he and his staff teach in classes, write in articles, and talk about on the forums, is simply right and and they take the step to prove why and how they're right. Haven't been completely sold on the AKs though... for close range I love em, but for an overall combat weapon I find I'm just better with the AR sights. Of course, this can be remedied with more training, or simply putting a red dot on it. Nice thing is they aren't strictly AK, you can use any weapon you want in their classes, they just have found the AK to work better than anything else for the intended purpose.
Start some bite-the-shit-out-of-people training? SI already has an unarmed combative course [ROFL1]
Holy kerap someone here knows who he is [Tooth]
I admit, I have a man crush. The more stuff he puts out, the more I find I'm rethinking everything I thought I knew. Everything he and his staff teach in classes, write in articles, and talk about on the forums, is simply right and and they take the step to prove why and how they're right. Haven't been completely sold on the AKs though... for close range I love em, but for an overall combat weapon I find I'm just better with the AR sights. Of course, this can be remedied with more training, or simply putting a red dot on it. Nice thing is they aren't strictly AK, you can use any weapon you want in their classes, they just have found the AK to work better than anything else for the intended purpose.
Start some bite-the-shit-out-of-people training? SI already has an unarmed combative course [ROFL1]
Worth note, he makes fun of a lot of the training out there! [Tooth] Oddly enough, that is what I was alluding to in my post. Suarez is sorta like the Bible I guess, depends on who reads it to determine how you understand it. By the way OP, He falls into the teach people how to shoot in a fight, but don't plan on winning 3-gun, coaching. If memory serves, you don't even have to take a side arm to a lot of his classes. Something like "In Soviet Russia, AK transitions you!"
CUatTheEnd
07-13-2011, 07:50
Again, thanks guys. I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions (in addition to some friendly sarcasm).
I was debating posting the orginal thread and now I am glad I posted it. A lot of good CO AR-15 guys here that are really helpful. Now I just need to find some time to get out and shoot! Always a challenge with the "little rug rats" and family schedule.
Byte Stryke
07-13-2011, 07:54
. Now I just need to find some time to get out and shoot! Always a challenge with the "little rug rats" and family schedule.
um, bring them with?
mcantar18c
07-13-2011, 07:55
Worth note, he makes fun of a lot of the training out there! [Tooth] Oddly enough, that is what I was alluding to in my post. Suarez is sorta like the Bible I guess, depends on who reads it to determine how you understand it. By the way OP, He falls into the teach people how to shoot in a fight, but don't plan on winning 3-gun, coaching. If memory serves, you don't even have to take a side arm to a lot of his classes. Something like "In Soviet Russia, AK transitions you!"
He does, and its pretty entertaining [Tooth] I normally ignore people that do things like that, but he explains why they're idiots very well and proves how ineffective some of them are. And yes, Saurez is where you want to go if you want to learn how to fight and survive the fight, but if you're looking to play gun games you should probably look elsewhere... the close range training is in MOH (Minute of Haji) not MOA [ROFL1]. I haven't heard the sidearm thing before, but if that's true I imagine the mind set is "You came to the rifle class to learn how to use the rifle as a weapon. If you want to learn how to use your handgun, come to the handgun class."
The other thing I'm not sold on is the RMRs... it just looks funny, and I don't imagine it makes concealment very easy (although they seem to make it work). I hear they work incredibly well, but I haven't actually used one yet so I can't really say anything about them.
mcantar dammit! I didn't see this thread ending up with me AK shopping! crap, just when you think you've walked away, they pull you back in.
Just a side note, a buddy and I were shooting two 7.62 AKs to 500 meters with some success a few months ago. Iron sights even. Given it was MOH sized groups.
[JRope]
mcantar18c
07-13-2011, 08:10
Lol here, allow me to help...
Want to co-witness? (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/uspalmcowitnessrailhangduard.aspx)
Want to mount a scope? (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/kalashnikovriflescoperailtopcoverdoglegscoperailge n-2.aspx)
Want an adjustable trigger? (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/redstararms-adjustabletriggerkit.aspx)
Want a peep sight instead of open sights? (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/kciakrearpeepsight-fixed.aspx)
Want a night sight instead? (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/amerigloak-47rearnightsightgreen.aspx)
Here have a front night sight too (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/amerigloak-47frontnightsightm6x075threadfront.aspx)
[Tooth]
Yeah the AKs are definitely deserving of more credit than we like to give em here, they can reach out and touch things when built right. I just prefer the closed sights of the AR for distances... although that peep sight I linked might just solve that.
Damnit Mat! I didn't see your AK shopping end up with me shopping for an AK!
CUatTheEnd
07-13-2011, 08:14
Originally Posted by CUatTheEnd http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?p=381556#post381556)
. Now I just need to find some time to get out and shoot! Always a challenge with the "little rug rats" and family schedule.
um, bring them with?
Yeah, I have Wednesday and Thursday off next week since our Daycare lady is on vacation. I was thinking to heading out to Pawnee, (not a member anywhere yet), the girls would love that (7yr and 4yrs), mom....not so much. She's a work in progress right now when it comes to guns but that's a whole new thread! [ROFL1]
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