View Full Version : Pissed! P22 gone!
Darth Stang
07-12-2011, 14:32
Went shooting at Dragon Man's this weekend here in Colorado Springs and got hit by a freakish rain/hail/wind sotrm. Well while we were bugging out I guess my fairly new P22 dropped out of my shooting bag. Didn't realize it until we got home, and by that time, maybe 30-40 mins later I called back and the RO didn't find it anywhere. So apparently one of the "patrons" decided to add to their collection rather than turn the gun over to the RO. WTF? I mean courtesy aside, how about the whole if you get caught with it it can be a felony issue? So disappointed...[Mad]
Zundfolge
07-12-2011, 14:52
Report it to the police.
If you're an NRA member you have a free insurance policy on your guns but they'll want a police report when you file.
Darth Stang
07-12-2011, 15:25
Did the police report and have a case number, but not NRA. Will check with USAA, though I'm sure the deuctible will make it useless.
funkymonkey1111
07-12-2011, 15:54
Went shooting at Dragon Man's this weekend here in Colorado Springs and got hit by a freakish rain/hail/wind sotrm. Well while we were bugging out I guess my fairly new P22 dropped out of my shooting bag. Didn't realize it until we got home, and by that time, maybe 30-40 mins later I called back and the RO didn't find it anywhere. So apparently one of the "patrons" decided to add to their collection rather than turn the gun over to the RO. WTF? I mean courtesy aside, how about the whole if you get caught with it it can be a felony issue? So disappointed...[Mad]
what felony is that?
Zundfolge
07-12-2011, 16:06
what felony is that?
Possession of a stolen firearm.
Not sure that's a felony in Colorado unless the person in possession is a prohibited person though.
TEAMRICO
07-12-2011, 16:42
Possession of a stolen firearm.
Not sure that's a felony in Colorado unless the person in possession is a prohibited person though.
Really? Is it TRULY STOLEN?
I found a dollar the other night......did I steal it?
Someone did find it, no doubt, but to say he STOLE it from you?
Loose morals maybe, who's to say what anyone of you might do when faced with firearm laying on the ground.
Check check and then Recheck your Sensitive Items before bugging out, 100% hands on at all times!
funkymonkey1111
07-12-2011, 16:44
Possession of a stolen firearm.
Not sure that's a felony in Colorado unless the person in possession is a prohibited person though.
doesn't sound stolen to me
sneakerd
07-12-2011, 16:48
Imho whoever picked it up can't be charged with a crime. OP himself admitted that he lost/misplaced it. Be glad it wasn't something a lot more expensive. Kind of like leaving a rifle on the trunk of your car! Maybe not quite, but the comparison is valid.
Check the used gun case at DM's.
Very shitty lessoned learned but I have to agree that its not stolen.
Hell, depending on where I found a weapon I would think about keeping it.
I hope someone turns it in. Good luck.
Zundfolge
07-12-2011, 17:51
If the OP reported it to the police as stolen then when officer friendly runs the serial number it'll come up as stolen and whomever is in possession of it could be charged with possession of a stolen firearm.
Colorado Osprey
07-12-2011, 18:21
Really? Is it TRULY STOLEN?
I found a dollar the other night......did I steal it?
Someone did find it, no doubt, but to say he STOLE it from you?
Loose morals maybe, who's to say what anyone of you might do when faced with firearm laying on the ground.
Ok.. almong those same lines. You park you car in the street instead of your house. Public property right? I can come and take your car??
BS!!! STOLEN is RIGHT!
You car has plates and a VIN #. Your gun has a serial number. The dollar has a serial number. The difference is you probably don't know the serial number to the dollar in your pocket, but you do know the VIN number or license plate number of the car and you do know your gun's serial number.
Yes, report it.. It is STOLEN!
?????????
If you find something, does that make it yours?
Seems to me that if you take something that wasn't given to you, you didn't pay for it or earn it, or you didn't bring it with you; you stole it.
Whether or not someone can be prosecuted for a crime doesn't determine whether something is right or wrong. If it was yours, and you lost it, what would you want the person who found it to do?
There is your answer. Treat others as you wish to be treated. [Flower]
Gcompact30
07-12-2011, 18:54
18-4-401. Theft . (http://198.187.128.12/colorado/lpext.dll?f=FifLink&t=document-frame.htm&l=query&iid=1da268e1.69200c34.0.0&q=%5BGroup%20%2718-4-401%27%5D)
Statute text
(1) A person commits theft when he knowingly obtains or exercises control over anything of value of another without authorization, or by threat or deception, and:
(a) Intends to deprive the other person permanently of the use or benefit of the thing of value; or
(b) Knowingly uses, conceals, or abandons the thing of value in such manner as to deprive the other person permanently of its use or benefit; or
(c) Uses, conceals, or abandons the thing of value intending that such use, concealment, or abandonment will deprive the other person permanently of its use and benefit; or
(d) Demands any consideration to which he is not legally entitled as a condition of restoring the thing of value to the other person.
(1.5) For the purposes of this section, a thing of value is that of "another" if anyone other than the defendant has a possessory or proprietary interest therein.
(2) Theft is:
(a) (Deleted by amendment, L. 2007, p. 1690, ยง 3, effective July 1, 2007.)
(b) A class 2 misdemeanor if the value of the thing involved is less than five hundred dollars;
(b.5) A class 1 misdemeanor if the value of the thing involved is five hundred dollars or more but less than one thousand dollars;
(c) A class 4 felony if the value of the thing involved is one thousand dollars or more but less than twenty thousand dollars;
(d) A class 3 felony if the value of the thing involved is twenty thousand dollars or more.
(3) and (3.1) Repealed.
(4) When a person commits theft twice or more within a period of six months without having been placed in jeopardy for the prior offense or offenses, and the aggregate value of the things involved is one thousand dollars or more but less than twenty thousand dollars, it is a class 4 felony; however, if the aggregate value of the things involved is twenty thousand dollars or more, it is a class 3 felony.
(5) Theft from the person of another by means other than the use of force, threat, or intimidation is a class 5 felony without regard to the value of the thing taken.
(6) In every indictment or information charging a violation of this section, it shall be sufficient to allege that, on or about a day certain, the defendant committed the crime of theft by unlawfully taking a thing or things of value of a person or persons named in the indictment or information. The prosecuting attorney shall at the request of the defendant provide a bill of particulars.
(7) Repealed.
(8) A municipality shall have concurrent power to prohibit theft , by ordinance, where the value of the thing involved is less than one thousand dollars.
wrestler034
07-12-2011, 18:58
Bunch of shady people in this thread. Reminds me why I stay away from public ranges...
Gcompact30
07-12-2011, 19:09
You turn it in to the police if NO one claims it in a period of time it maybe yours probably anyway..... If someone found it on here do the right thing and turn it in to the rightful owner.
Bunch of shady people in this thread. Reminds me why I stay away from public ranges...
wrestler034
07-12-2011, 19:13
..... If someone found it on here do the right thing and turn it in to the rightful owner.
x2
BPTactical
07-12-2011, 19:36
CStone hit it right.
There is a thing, although now quite rare called morals and integrity. Some people have it, most don't.
Apparently one of the "Not's" picked up your P22.
sneakerd
07-12-2011, 19:55
Sorry guys, as I recall, the discussion quickly evolved into specific criminal charges likely, not whether it was right or not to pick up something that belongs to another and keep it. Let me give you a flash- a year or so ago, I was westbound on 58th going into the right turnlane onto northbound Garrison. Somehow, I saw dollar billls on the street at the curb in front of me. I stopped the truck, got out and found a $5 on one side of the gutter, and 2 $1s on the other side. Did I steal them because I put them in my wallet without searching for the person who dropped them? I know that's a far cry from picking up a serialized handgun, but the question was whether I could be CHARGED, not whether it was right.
Sorry guys, as I recall, the discussion quickly evolved into specific criminal charges likely, not whether it was right or not to pick up something that belongs to another and keep it. Let me give you a flash- a year or so ago, I was westbound on 58th going into the right turnlane onto northbound Garrison. Somehow, I saw dollar billls on the street at the curb in front of me. I stopped the truck, got out and found a $5 on one side of the gutter, and 2 $1s on the other side. Did I steal them because I put them in my wallet without searching for the person who dropped them? I know that's a far cry from picking up a serialized handgun, but the question was whether I could be CHARGED, not whether it was right.
If it was marked money from a robbery or bait money from some other LE activity, I would have to say the answer might be "yes." If that money was counterfeit and you attempted to pass it, that could also get you charged, depending on the circumstances. Possession of stolen property is a crime.
Many years in the business have taught me that many crimes do not get prosecuted, even when they could be.
Did you ever figure out the source for all of that "money from heaven?"
DSB OUTDOORS
07-12-2011, 20:08
Went shooting at Dragon Man's this weekend here in Colorado Springs and got hit by a freakish rain/hail/wind sotrm. Well while we were bugging out I guess my fairly new P22 dropped out of my shooting bag. Didn't realize it until we got home, and by that time, maybe 30-40 mins later I called back and the RO didn't find it anywhere. So apparently one of the "patrons" decided to add to their collection rather than turn the gun over to the RO. WTF? I mean courtesy aside, how about the whole if you get caught with it it can be a felony issue? So disappointed...[Mad]
Ok you said it was Raining, Hailing and you were Bugging out?! What do you think this person was doing?? Maybe this person found it and he too whent home to dry off and was going to turn it in when he or she got a chance? I agree you should call and report it stolen. But I'm just sayin mabey check back in a day or two before jumping the gun???? [Dunno] Not all people are bad. But if they are thats why we have the make my day law!! [Tooth]
.
Did you ever figure out the source for all of that "money from heaven?"
I'm going to take a stab at it and say he didnt investigate $7 dollars that he happen to find on a random sidewalk.
blacklabel
07-12-2011, 20:36
That sucks that you lost your P22 and I wouldn't be surprised if it's gone forever. There aren't a ton of stand up folks left in this world. I do have to ask, how do you let a firearm fall out of your range bag?
sneakerd
07-12-2011, 20:51
Oh my gawd. No I didn't "investigate" the source of the $7. There was no one in the area and I was momentarily blocking traffic in the right turn lane. Beyond that Imho Cstones entire last posting is ridiculous. The key word is "KNOWINGLY", not in his post. Nothing personal.
Oh my gawd. No I didn't "investigate" the source of the $7. I was momentarily blocking traffic in the right turn lane. Beyond that Imho Cstones entire last posting is ridiculous. The key word is "KNOWINGLY", not in his post. Nothing personal.
I'm not offended. As you said, it's your opinion and that makes it just as valuable as mine.
I thought the question in your last sentence, that I was answering was; could I be charged? The answer I provided was "yes." I provided what I quickly could come up with as some possible scenarios that might get you charged, but I also admit that it isn't likely.
Given the information provided, I wouldn't assume you would go on a full recon looking for the rightful owner of the $7, but sometimes there are some obvious clues which might give the source of the money away.
We all must live with our own decisions and I assume you sleep as well at night with your conscience as I do with mine.
Just consider me a Boy Scout. Old habits die hard. [Beer]
sneakerd
07-12-2011, 21:19
Fair enough I reckon. Trust me if an old lady had been standing there with a big straw purse gaping open, I would have said- "Is this yours?", and given it to her if she had said yes.
Gcompact30
07-12-2011, 22:08
Excellent choice [Beer][Beer][Beer]
Fair enough I reckon. Trust me if an old lady had been standing there with a big straw purse gaping open, I would have said- "Is this yours?", and given it to her if she had said yes.
If she said "Yes," I would have said, "PROVE IT!"
If she said "Yes," I would have said, "PROVE IT!"
And then she would have whipped out a receipt showing her spending exactly $2.45 at the gas station, paying with a $10 and holding the 2 quarters and nickel...
your reply "Touche"
streetglideok
07-12-2011, 22:49
I have to say, if I found a gun that was left at the range, I would be more interested in doing the right thing, and not adding to my collection. Either turn it in to the gun range or law enforcement. I would probably call the law and ask them first on the matter. Who cares what or if someone can be charged, why not look out for your fellow gunowner and try and return it?
?????????
If you find something, does that make it yours?
Seems to me that if you take something that wasn't given to you, you didn't pay for it or earn it, or you didn't bring it with you; you stole it.
Whether or not someone can be prosecuted for a crime doesn't determine whether something is right or wrong. If it was yours, and you lost it, what would you want the person who found it to do?
There is your answer. Treat others as you wish to be treated. [Flower]
This^ +1000
What if you find a vcr inside a dumpster. That has a serial number on it.
There is a thing, although now quite rare called morals and integrity. Some people have it, most don't.
Apparently one of the "Not's" picked up your P22.
This also^ +1000
I find a firearm on the ground. No one is around to claim it. I have a choice to turn it in to the authorities or keep it.
If I keep it, is it stolen? There was no malicious theft involved. I did not steal anything.
I can be a good samaritan (the Samaritans weren't that good) and turn it in.
Sorry you "lost" your handgun but I don't see a reason to report it as stolen. Lost yes.
Colorado Osprey
07-13-2011, 06:12
What if you find a vcr inside a dumpster. That has a serial number on it.
OMG-- No morals
YES that is stealing too.
If it is in a dumpster it is not yours. It belongs to the person owning/posessing the dumpster. Same as in their house.
It is not ethical nor legal in places to go through others trash.
If you want the VRC the correct thing to do is to go to the owner of said dumpster (not the trash dumpster company)and ask if you can have it and hope it is legal where you live to go through others trash so that you don't get arrested for dumpster diving.
I had to show my young son this thread to show him how many people who don't know they would be stealing. I also showed him how many people from this thread did.
This whole stealing things gets even more grey when you talk to illegal aliens because stealing in Mexico is not stealing unless it is under lock and key when taken. That is why so many here illegally didn't know they steal under their moral compass. In Texas spare tires/wheels get taken from under vehicles because they are considered fair game. Not under lock and key. If your spare tire is locked inside the car or cab of a truck, it won't be taken.
Colorado Osprey
07-13-2011, 06:31
If I keep it, is it stolen? There was no malicious theft involved. I did not steal anything.
Sorry you "lost" your handgun but I don't see a reason to report it as stolen
Wow... malicious.... it wasn't yours and you had no intentions of returning it. malicious intent... YES
Let's look at worst case scenario:
So you picked up a stolen gun that was discarded and kept it. One day you are pulled over for speeding and happened to have the gun with you. The gun's serial number comes back as stolen and used in multiple murders. You go to jail for a long time because the only forensic evidence is the gun tied to those crimes. You try and persuade the prosecutor that you found the gun. Orange jump suits and bars on the windows for years!
Again, just because you "found" something doesn't mean it won't be won't be reported stolen. Possession of that stolen property.. particularly a firearm will get you locked up and trying to figure out how to pay your high dollar lawyer.
It has a serial number. It has an owner. Even if it doesn't have a serial number it can have an owner.
If you find a stray dog, is it yours? NO!
My moral compass says that if it isn't yours, it isn't yours!
If you locate something you perceive as of value, it is probably valuable to someone else... DUH! Try and locate the owner to let them know. If you are too lazy to do that leave it be and walk away.
If the dumb A$$ who picked up this guy's gun had let it be it would have been there for him to go back and pick up.. therefore it was stolen just like a parked car.
If you don't agree maybe you need to check you moral compass and maybe pray for help.
This whole stealing things gets even more grey when you talk to illegal aliens because stealing in Mexico is not stealing unless it is under lock and key when taken. That is why so many here illegally didn't know they steal under their moral compass. In Texas spare tires/wheels get taken from under vehicles because they are considered fair game. Not under lock and key. If your spare tire is locked inside the car or cab of a truck, it won't be taken.
This I didn't know, but doesn't suprise me. When we first moved here from AZ I was amazed how trusting people were with their stuff, lawn furniture, unlocked bikes, care windows cracked. In AZ that stuff would all get stolen, here people just let it sit.
Yeah, walking with that gun was a bad call. People have to be reasonable, finding cash is understandable, you can't get it back to the person, but a wallet is much easier to return. The gun falls into the wallet category, now if the guy left a box of ammo in the National Forrest, and it walked away, my feelings would be different. Still theft, but there is no way to track down that owner.
Either way, OP, that's a firearm, that's your responsibilty to watch and hold onto. A kid could have walked off with that P22, meaning theft should be the least of your worries. Big, big mistake and I hope this doesn't come back to haunt you.
streetglideok
07-13-2011, 06:58
Wow... malicious.... it wasn't yours and you had no intentions of returning it. malicious intent... YES
Let's look at worst case scenario:
So you picked up a stolen gun that was discarded and kept it. One day you are pulled over for speeding and happened to have the gun with you. The gun's serial number comes back as stolen and used in multiple murders. You go to jail for a long time because the only forensic evidence is the gun tied to those crimes. You try and persuade the prosecutor that you found the gun. Orange jump suits and bars on the windows for years!
Again, just because you "found" something doesn't mean it won't be won't be reported stolen. Possession of that stolen property.. particularly a firearm will get you locked up and trying to figure out how to pay your high dollar lawyer.
It has a serial number. It has an owner. Even if it doesn't have a serial number it can have an owner.
If you find a stray dog, is it yours? NO!
My moral compass says that if it isn't yours, it isn't yours!
If you locate something you perceive as of value, it is probably valuable to someone else... DUH! Try and locate the owner to let them know. If you are too lazy to do that leave it be and walk away.
If the dumb A$$ who picked up this guy's gun had let it be it would have been there for him to go back and pick up.. therefore it was stolen just like a parked car.
If you don't agree maybe you need to check you moral compass and maybe pray for help.
I have to agree with this 100%
bobbyfairbanks
07-13-2011, 06:59
I tried praying but no one was home.
Byte Stryke
07-13-2011, 07:11
Im Surprised no one hit on the fact that the OP is going to report it stolen instead of lost or misplaced.
Go ahead and file that stolen firearms report and get the insurance...
Filing a false report and insurance fraud is MUCH better character than not returning something you found.
besides, who says the finder didn't return it and DM Kept it?
I don't know it for a fact but, I have heard rumor that he is less than respectable himself.
or maybe, like you, the finder was bugging out himself and took it home only to report it later today?
BlasterBob
07-13-2011, 07:33
Im Surprised no one hit on the fact that the OP is going to report it stolen instead of lost or misplaced.
Just read almost all of the threads on this and was ready to make a post but Byte beat me to it with the fact that everyone talked about reporting it stolen rather than merely lost, overlooked or misplaced. Some folks will have reservations about turning something in to authorities, store managers etc. because they don't know if those folks will really make an all out effort to find the rightful owner of the FOUND item. One time I found a credit card (either VISA or Master Card - one of the bigger ones anyhow) at a gas station. Turned it in to the station cashier who was a girl about 16 or 17 who had the appearance of a street person or druggie. After walking out the door, I started to wonder if she'd be using the card and maybe never turn it in so I went back in and told her that I'd handle with the credit card company myself. She said that she could NOT give it back to me and that she'd handle it. Always wonder what ever happened with THAT card.
Byte Stryke
07-13-2011, 07:58
Just read almost all of the threads on this and was ready to make a post but Byte beat me to it with the fact that everyone talked about reporting it stolen rather than merely lost, overlooked or misplaced. Some folks will have reservations about turning something in to authorities, store managers etc. because they don't know if those folks will really make an all out effort to find the rightful owner of the FOUND item. One time I found a credit card (either VISA or Master Card - one of the bigger ones anyhow) at a gas station. Turned it in to the station cashier who was a girl about 16 or 17 who had the appearance of a street person or druggie. After walking out the door, I started to wonder if she'd be using the card and maybe never turn it in so I went back in and told her that I'd handle with the credit card company myself. She said that she could NOT give it back to me and that she'd handle it. Always wonder what ever happened with THAT card.
you did right.
believe it or not (depending on the company) they actually hold it for ~7 days and then its sent to corporate for turnover to the issuer.
and you turning it over to her was on video, so its not like it was "Just anyone"
I once found six thousand dollars after hours at a bank behind a safe I was moving. The money wraps were dated back to '97 so this cash was considered "lost inventory" and no one knows about it being there. There were no cameras and I could have easily taken it and had a great weekend but I've always told myself to be as honest as possible so I went and got the branch manager and gave it to here, actually I didn't even touch it, I had her pick it up! Anyway, she had two other tellers there that night and the paperwork is a long process to put that money back into "inventory" so I'm sure they had a great weekend but my conscience was clean and I can continue to be honest!
n8tive97
07-13-2011, 09:08
First of all I hate that you lost your gun that would make me sick to my stomach!
Bottom line is we have people that can justify their actions however they want that benefits them the most.
Someone can find a gun, laying in a parking lot in bad weather, put 2 and 2 together and realize it fell out of a pocket or range bag on the way to his car/truck trying to get out of the weather. At that point, a man's character kicks in. If he keeps it without trying to find the owner, than I question is character.
He/She could post something somewhere and do his/her best to find the owner. That gun could be a very personal item given to him by someone very special or close to him that can’t be replaced.
I would hope my fellow gun owner friends would do the right thing and not justify keeping a gun without doing everything possible to try to find the owner!
[Beer]
I once found six thousand dollars after hours at a bank behind a safe I was moving. ... my conscience was clean and I can continue to be honest!
Having a clean conscience is its own reward. I was taught that integrity is like virginity. Once it is gone, it is gone. There is nothing like the original, however, it is possible to begin again and be the person you want to be, and were meant to be. Everyone makes mistakes. Good people learn from those mistakes and try not to repeat them too often. [Coffee]
Did the bank employees look at you funny when you turned the money in? Thank you for your honesty and returning the money.
[Beer]
BuffCyclist
07-13-2011, 09:12
A few months back I found $300 cash in $20 bills floating around the lower parking lot at the observatory I work at. We often have tourists and they park down there. I was thinking that perhaps one of them accidentally had it fall out of their pocket and the wind blew it around (I spent about 20-30 minutes searching for bills). Then I remembered we had some visiting scientists and grad students staying on site and I would have felt horrible keeping it if it was one of theirs.
Turned it in to the site director, he labeled it with the date and my name in case no one claimed it in 30 days. He asked the scientists if they were missing any money and one said she was. After he turned it over to her, I expected she would have tracked me down or at the very least emailed me a thank you for spending the time finding my money...nope. Not a single thank you or word from her. Almost made me wish I had kept it. Especially since I was strapped for money that month due to several unexpected medical/vet bills for myself and my dog (I slipped on ice, landed my spine on the corner of stairs and thought I broke my back because I couldn't move for about 15 minutes; dog was attacked at the dog park and had to have emergency surgery to debride/souture the wound).
To this day though, I still feel I did the right thing turning in that money. If it were mine, I would be so grateful if someone found my money.
But, regarding the pistol, it's lost, not stolen. If I had found a gun, I would turn it over to the authorities, because knowing my luck it would have been used in a crime where a cop was shot and I'd be accused of doing it.
Then again, depending on the range I was at, I might just turn it over to the range master. The range I shoot at there is RARELY ever more than 3-5 people at a time on a given day. So chances are the gun would be returned to the proper owner very quickly.
funkymonkey1111
07-13-2011, 09:17
Wow... malicious.... it wasn't yours and you had no intentions of returning it. malicious intent... YES
Let's look at worst case scenario:
So you picked up a stolen gun that was discarded and kept it. One day you are pulled over for speeding and happened to have the gun with you. The gun's serial number comes back as stolen and used in multiple murders. You go to jail for a long time because the only forensic evidence is the gun tied to those crimes. You try and persuade the prosecutor that you found the gun. Orange jump suits and bars on the windows for years!
Again, just because you "found" something doesn't mean it won't be won't be reported stolen. Possession of that stolen property.. particularly a firearm will get you locked up and trying to figure out how to pay your high dollar lawyer.
It has a serial number. It has an owner. Even if it doesn't have a serial number it can have an owner.
If you find a stray dog, is it yours? NO!
My moral compass says that if it isn't yours, it isn't yours!
If you locate something you perceive as of value, it is probably valuable to someone else... DUH! Try and locate the owner to let them know. If you are too lazy to do that leave it be and walk away.
If the dumb A$$ who picked up this guy's gun had let it be it would have been there for him to go back and pick up.. therefore it was stolen just like a parked car.
If you don't agree maybe you need to check you moral compass and maybe pray for help.
I think the post best illustrates a bit of the disconnect here. Reporting lost property as "stolen" doesn't then deem that property "stolen." Here, there's a huge leap from the report of stolen property (which we've already established didn't happen, and instead the OP lost the gun) to the belief that the property is now classified as "stolen."
That's not a moral issue for those that pat themselves on the back about their standards and that they wouldn't keep the gun, they're full of integrity, whatever. The original post referenced a felony by keeping the gun, and then another poster identified "possession of a stolen firearm."
No stealing occurred here, regardless of how any of your moral compasses tell you otherwise.
sneakerd
07-13-2011, 09:22
Agree totally.
If it is in a dumpster it is not yours. It belongs to the person owning/posessing the dumpster. Same as in their house.
It is not ethical nor legal in places to go through others trash.
The courts disagree with you. Something that has been discarded in a publicly accessible trash can is considered "discarded" by the law. Just ask any LEO if they need a warrant to go through/seize garbage that a suspected criminal has set out at the curb. Does this make it right? No, but you can't charge someone for stealing your garbage after you have given up claim to it.
Did the bank employees look at you funny when you turned the money in? Thank you for your honesty and returning the money.
[Beer]
Not really. In their minds I bet they were thinking, "it's Friday night and I don't want to stay late to file paperwork so we will split this and have a great weekend."
The courts disagree with you. Something that has been discarded in a publicly accessible trash can is considered "discarded" by the law. Just ask any LEO if they need a warrant to go through/seize garbage that a suspected criminal has set out at the curb. Does this make it right? No, but you can't charge someone for stealing your garbage after you have given up claim to it.
This is correct. If something is in a garbage can and placed out for disposal, the contents are considered to be abandoned property.
An analog for us here would be spent brass at a public range. If someone were to go and clean up the brass and turn it in for scrap or clean and reload it, then it is recovery of abandoned property and probably a useful public service. If, however, it is a private range or there is a posted sign with guidance that the spent brass not picked up immediately after firing becomes the property of the range, then you could not consider the brass to be abandoned.
I haven't seen a general offense report from every PD in Colorado, but most label this type of report as Lost/Stolen property. The original OP lost his gun, but that does not give anyone the right to then recover the lost property with the intent to permanently deprive the rightful owner (see Theft).
Most of this part of the discussion has become academic. If Joe Snuffy had found the P22 with the intention of securing it till it could be returned, however, life being what it is, Snuffy never got around to turning it in. Five years later, Snuffy sells the P22, and then it is sold again, then it is sold again, etc... One day, someone runs that P22 in NCIC and it shows up as a stolen weapon, there is very little chance that Snuffy or anyone of the subsequent owners would ever be identified or charged with any type of crime. The PD would then inventory the P22 and make at least one telephone call to the number listed for the owner who reported the loss. If they get no response to that call, the gun remains in evidence for whatever period that department holds unclaimed property until it can be disposed of (auctioned or melted down).
Doing the right thing has little to do with the law. If it was your gun and you lost it, what would you want the finder to do? Do likewise.
CUatTheEnd
07-13-2011, 09:52
I actually caught a lady going through my trash, I think it was after a garage sale or something. It was weird seeing someone go through your trash.
I actually caught a lady going through my trash, I think it was after a garage sale or something. It was weird seeing someone go through your trash.
My kids and I get a kick out of "bulk pick-up" week. Put the stuff out on Saturday and most of it is gone by Sunday evening. The city has to figure more than 50% of what gets put out is gone before they come and get it.
Most of the trucks look like the truck from Sanford and Son piled to overflowing with treasure [ROFL1]
My kids and I get a kick out of "bulk pick-up" week. Put the stuff out on Saturday and most of it is gone by Sunday evening. The city has to figure more than 50% of what gets put out is gone before they come and get it.
Most of the trucks look like the truck from Sanford and Son piled to overflowing with treasure [ROFL1]
I'm sure you can find most of that stuff up for sale at the Flea Market, or whatever they call it now. I've seen a lot of my trash go away before the garbage truck comes around. Never ceases to amaze me what the pickers will haul off.
And AFA the OP's lost pistol, if someone did find it and wanted to return it to him, it could be kinda tough to find out who the rightful owner is. Even if the finder gave it to the po-po, do they really have the time/resources to hunt the owner down? I found a range bag at BLGC once, and even though it had the owner's business card in it, it was tough to track him down because the bus. card was an old one from another state. I did eventually get it back to him though, and he was very thankful.
Wow... malicious.... it wasn't yours and you had no intentions of returning it. malicious intent... YES
Let's look at worst case scenario:
So you picked up a stolen gun that was discarded and kept it. One day you are pulled over for speeding and happened to have the gun with you. The gun's serial number comes back as stolen and used in multiple murders. You go to jail for a long time because the only forensic evidence is the gun tied to those crimes. You try and persuade the prosecutor that you found the gun. Orange jump suits and bars on the windows for years!
Again, just because you "found" something doesn't mean it won't be won't be reported stolen. Possession of that stolen property.. particularly a firearm will get you locked up and trying to figure out how to pay your high dollar lawyer.
It has a serial number. It has an owner. Even if it doesn't have a serial number it can have an owner.
If you find a stray dog, is it yours? NO!
My moral compass says that if it isn't yours, it isn't yours!
If you locate something you perceive as of value, it is probably valuable to someone else... DUH! Try and locate the owner to let them know. If you are too lazy to do that leave it be and walk away.
If the dumb A$$ who picked up this guy's gun had let it be it would have been there for him to go back and pick up.. therefore it was stolen just like a parked car.
If you don't agree maybe you need to check you moral compass and maybe pray for help.
I guess you didn't read the second half of my post. Nowhere did I say what I would do, just the options at hand.
I was helping pick up trash at Lefthand last week. I found a half dozen unfired shot shells. Should I have turned them into the authorities or tried to find the owners?
Interesting similarities in this thread and the BOS thread.
As to what I would have done. I would rather have a clear conscious then a new handgun.
Thanks for the offer but I don't need any prayers or feel the need to check my moral compass. Good day. :)
My kids and I get a kick out of "bulk pick-up" week. Put the stuff out on Saturday and most of it is gone by Sunday evening. The city has to figure more than 50% of what gets put out is gone before they come and get it.
Most of the trucks look like the truck from Sanford and Son piled to overflowing with treasure [ROFL1]
That's called recycling. [Coffee]
That's called recycling. [Coffee]
Agreed! And in that it isn't mandated by the government or supported by tax money, it is the best type of recycling. [Beer]
I'm sorry to ring in so late, but people are splitting hairs here and it's getting unnerving. Lost firearm, someone takes it, theft can be applied. Lost bullets, can't trace them to an owner, sorry. I feel bad for the OP, but report it lost to the authorities and pray that you get it back.
As for morality, if I "lose" my car in a parking lot and don't claim it, does that mean that someone can just walk up and take it? NO. If I drop a $20 on the ground by accident and there is no way to trace it back to me as the original owner, fair game. It's a matter of personal property that is tracable back to the owner. Some things you can't trace, others you can. Dispensible items, such as cash, bullets, gum, coke-a-cola, etc. are nearly impossible to track back to the owner, but high value items, such as cell phones, cars, guns, etc. you can imply malicious intent if recovered and the person keeps it. I would be especially weary if it's a gun because it can be classified as a restrictive item (meaning not everyone is qualified to own one- criminal record, age).
Stop nit picking over this. Right vs. Wrong, I know there can be a gray area here but stop comparing something like a gun to finding 7 f***ing dollars, it's a totally different case. $7 can't kill. $7 is not a high value item. You can compare a "lost" car to a lost gun, but not lost cash to a lost gun, that just shows ignorance.
Stop nit picking over this. Right vs. Wrong, I know there can be a gray area here but stop comparing something like a gun to finding 7 f***ing dollars, it's a totally different case. $7 can't kill. $7 is not a high value item. You can compare a "lost" car to a lost gun, but not lost cash to a lost gun, that just shows ignorance.
Was that an order? [ROFL1]
Most of the General Discussion stuff is nit picking. I think it is interesting sharing different points of view.
For instance, I don't see the issue as one of value of the property as much as the ownership of the property. Some abandoned property is very valuable, i.e. The Titanic There are laws governing salvage at sea. Some property has little value but is just wrong to steal, i.e. pick pocketing loose change. If an item has a serial number, it may make it easier for a rightful owner to establish their claim, however it does not necessarily determine ownership. If I unknowingly buy a lost/stolen gun and the po-po run the serial number and determine that it is lost/stolen, I am less than 50/50 in my chances of ever getting the gun back. Caveat Emptor.
How do you feel about recycling? [ROFL1]
n8tive97
07-13-2011, 11:01
Starting to think a BOS is a good idea..... [Coffee]
BlasterBob
07-13-2011, 11:15
cstone said,
"An analog for us here would be spent brass at a public range. If someone were to go and clean up the brass and turn it in for scrap or clean and reload it, then it is recovery of abandoned property and probably a useful public service".
Here again, the following will probably never happen but it could......
Some shooters are just leaving the public shooting range as you are driving in to start your shooting and you are now the only one at this range. About an hour after you get set up, you notice a bunch of nice shiny .308 Match brass lying scattered all over the ground. No one around and it's been over an hour since anyone else has been on the range (must be abandoned brass) so you place it in a bag and toss it into your vehicle trunk. A shooter, not necessarily one of the shooters that just left, comes up to the range saying that he neglected to police up his empty .308 brass. It was more or less disposed of (dumped) since it was just left on the ground. Now what? Give him that brass that you just busted your ass picking up or just let him learn the hard way to properly and promptly police up the brass that he has fired. [Twist]
Now what?
Sell it to someone out of town. [Coffee]
A train leaves Chicago with two monkeys one has a banana the other does not. a alien space craft hits the train everyones dead - monkeys, people and aliens. a hazmat crew comes and cleans up the mess and finds the banana(no serial number just a name on it). WHOS BANANA IS IT?!?!?!
A train leaves Chicago with two monkeys one has a banana the other does not. a alien space craft hits the train everyones dead - monkeys, people and aliens. a hazmat crew comes and cleans up the mess and finds the banana(no serial number just a name on it). WHOS BANANA IS IT?!?!?!
Not yours. Leave it there!
Besides, it might have monkey spit or something on it. [ROFL2]
A train leaves Chicago with two monkeys one has a banana the other does not. a alien space craft hits the train everyones dead - monkeys, people and aliens. a hazmat crew comes and cleans up the mess and finds the banana(no serial number just a name on it). WHOS BANANA IS IT?!?!?!
More importantly, where do we bury the survivors?
Wow, I thought I knew some of y'all on here....
More importantly, where do we bury the survivors?
Deep enough so they can't dig out!!! BWAAAAAHAHAHAHA [Muaha]
More importantly, where do we bury the survivors?
Negative, read again...no survivors. Banana is up for grabs, finders keepers. Cleaning up train wrecks is hard work! Hazmat crew's gotta eat.....
Glock Shooter
07-13-2011, 12:52
Wow... malicious.... it wasn't yours and you had no intentions of returning it. malicious intent... YES
Let's look at worst case scenario:
So you picked up a stolen gun that was discarded and kept it. One day you are pulled over for speeding and happened to have the gun with you. The gun's serial number comes back as stolen and used in multiple murders. You go to jail for a long time because the only forensic evidence is the gun tied to those crimes. You try and persuade the prosecutor that you found the gun. Orange jump suits and bars on the windows for years!
Again, just because you "found" something doesn't mean it won't be won't be reported stolen. Possession of that stolen property.. particularly a firearm will get you locked up and trying to figure out how to pay your high dollar lawyer.
It has a serial number. It has an owner. Even if it doesn't have a serial number it can have an owner.
If you find a stray dog, is it yours? NO!
My moral compass says that if it isn't yours, it isn't yours!
If you locate something you perceive as of value, it is probably valuable to someone else... DUH! Try and locate the owner to let them know. If you are too lazy to do that leave it be and walk away.
If the dumb A$$ who picked up this guy's gun had let it be it would have been there for him to go back and pick up.. therefore it was stolen just like a parked car.
If you don't agree maybe you need to check you moral compass and maybe pray for help.
+1 This my friends is a HOME RUN comment.
[returning Austin's personal property after reanimating him]
Quartermaster Clerk (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0611974/): One Swedish-made penis enlarger.
Austin Powers (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): [to Vanessa] That's not mine.
Quartermaster Clerk (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0611974/): One credit card receipt for Swedish-made penis enlarger signed by Austin Powers.
Austin Powers (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): I'm telling ya baby, that's not mine.
Quartermaster Clerk (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0611974/): One warranty card for Swedish-made penis enlarger pump, filled out by Austin Powers.
Austin Powers (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): I don't even know what this is! This sort of thing ain't my bag, baby.
Quartermaster Clerk (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0611974/): One book, "Swedish-made Penis Enlargers And Me: This Sort of Thing Is My Bag Baby", by Austin Powers.
Negative, read again...no survivors. Banana is up for grabs, finders keepers. Cleaning up train wrecks is hard work! Hazmat crew's gotta eat.....
We do have a name that goes with the banana, so actually ownership should devolve to to next of kin...er...chimp...
SideShow Bob
07-13-2011, 16:39
CStone hit it right.
There is a thing, although now quite rare called morals and integrity. Some people have it, most don't.
Apparently one of the "Not's" picked up your P22.
Kind of like your raspberry phone when we were down at DM's. ?
my wife and i frequent dragon mans often. last summer someone told the range master, his hand gun just came up missing off the table. don't know the ins and outs of the episode. but do remember james asking to look in peoples bags as they were leaving the range. was it legal? don't know, don't care,he was just trying to help a fellow shooter get his hand gun back.don't know if they ever found it. I would not have been offended if he had wanted to look in my backpack.with nothing to hide. don't go there much anymore just to many people.
jerrymrc
07-13-2011, 20:15
I am actually very disappointed in some of the answers on this thread.
And for some of the others I do understand. 4-5 years ago I needed a MO and got a $107 one from 7-11. That night I am about to put it into the envelope and notice it is for $407. I look at the receipt and it says $407.
The next day I go back and explain what happened to the 20 something manager. He takes the MO and walks off. 2 min later I am asking for him again and he goes WHAT??? I explain that I did pay for a $107 MO and could I have it please. I get the MO with not so much as a thank you for returning the other one.
I wrote a very long letter to the company explaining everything and got a nice reply with some gift certificates for free drinks and stuff totaling $20 or so. I did notice that he was not there a month later. Karma can be a strange thing.[Flower]
cstone said,
"An analog for us here would be spent brass at a public range. If someone were to go and clean up the brass and turn it in for scrap or clean and reload it, then it is recovery of abandoned property and probably a useful public service".
Here again, the following will probably never happen but it could......
Some shooters are just leaving the public shooting range as you are driving in to start your shooting and you are now the only one at this range. About an hour after you get set up, you notice a bunch of nice shiny .308 Match brass lying scattered all over the ground. No one around and it's been over an hour since anyone else has been on the range (must be abandoned brass) so you place it in a bag and toss it into your vehicle trunk. A shooter, not necessarily one of the shooters that just left, comes up to the range saying that he neglected to police up his empty .308 brass. It was more or less disposed of (dumped) since it was just left on the ground. Now what? Give him that brass that you just busted your ass picking up or just let him learn the hard way to properly and promptly police up the brass that he has fired. [Twist]
I'd tell him I have it and he can have it if he REALLY wants it...we can play this game all day.
As for the gun, I'm kind of glad it got picked up. That sucks that your gun is apparently gone and I'm sorry for you, but can you imagine the nice things that might come out of the local media if they got wind that an evil handgun was left laying in a shooting range parking lot?
What if you buy a car from a dealership, and find a Sony Discman in the trunk?
What if you buy a house, and while you're demo'ing it for a remodel, you find about $20,000 worth of guns in the attic?
sneakerd
07-13-2011, 21:02
Referring to Guylees note, the problem is that it might very well come up on the news. Due to the carelessness of a shooter, a handgun is out there in the hands of- who knows? The discussion of whether or not it was stolen really deflects from the issue of carelessness. Just like leaving a rifle on the truck of a car. Hmmm- when did that happen recently and didn't we excoriate the cop on a thread here for his carelessness?
I think that "shit" happens and people need to get over it. I have had my truck tool box broken into. There was probably around $250 worth of goods taken. It wasnt right, but it also wasnt locked. In the end its kind of my fault for not having the tool box locked.... right. I know it doesnt give someone a free pass to have taken it, but I should have been more carefull.
I think there is a difference between intentionally stealing something or happening to pick something up that has been "lost". I know some of you are going to say " it wasnt lost" well... to the person picking it up it was.
We all learn hard leasons in life and I'm sure the OP will never leave a range without all his weapons/gear again.
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