Could someone translate? I don't speak...

[K31Fan]

...Sparkplug. I'm really hoping this is the last motorcycle question I'm going to be posting here. Long story short I have a really bad problem with overheating. To the point where the coolant is boiling over into the reservoir tank, and out onto the ground.

I've tested the entire cooling system for blockages/leaks. I've tested and replaced the thermostat. I've replaced the fan temp switch; the fan works great now. There are no air bubbles of any problematic apparency in the system, I'm using the correct coolant, the water pump is functioning exactly as it should, the radiator cap doesn't seem to be leaking, and it hisses when I depressurize the system when its hot.

In short, I believe the entire cooling system is functioning as it should.

But I'm still overheating and boiling coolant.

Blown head gasket is a no-no. No white smoke from the tail pipe, and the oil wasn't milky.

Onto the spark plugs! I've heard that running too lean can cause the engine to overheat. So naturally I yanked the spark plugs out of my bike. After I'd discarded the unimportant parts (i.e. the rest of the motorcycle) I examined the spark plugs. But I can't 'read' them definitively to assess weather I'm running lean or not. Here are some photos:

http://s3.postimage.org/5xtmp8vj3/IMG_6613.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/2e7ozfsg4/full/)
upload pngpng (http://www.postimage.org/)

http://s3.postimage.org/yapho095z/IMG_6617.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/2e827qkec/full/)
post image wordpress (http://www.postimage.org/)

http://s3.postimage.org/yaokl9bal/IMG_6620.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/2e754zmis/full/)


These are still new spark plugs. Only about 100-150 miles on them total. Although I did get the bike up to some pretty high revs riding it. I'm just curious if that little layer of white at the tip is indicative of lean running.

Also it seems 'reading' spark plugs is kind of a redneck way of telling if its running lean. But if it is running lean, wouldn't it be as simple a fix as turning the air screws a little tighter?

Any ideas that you guys could throw my way I'd really appreciate! I suppose the air filter could be the next thing to check. I'm running under the assumption that the jet sizes are stock. Maybe I should check that too...

[Hannu]

Please tell, what kind of bike / engine ? I know what engine it is not from spark plugs ;)

If it is traditional type of carburettor, air screw has more effect on mid to high end rpm mixture. Your photos seem little colored so it is hard to say what is the real color of the plugs...
If you push the bike and it runs lean, yes it will heat engine up somewhat and also cause local boiling points, specially inside the cylinder head. However, it is not so simple. If you run the bike easy on city streets, have to be super lean mixture and some other problems if it boils.

And regularly de-pressurizing cooling system when it is hot is one of the best ways to cause local coolant boiling...

Depending on engine and circumstances, blown head gasket does not always mean huge amount white smoke and "milk".

[clublights]

Had the EXACT problem with my 86 Honda VFR.............


Bad Radiator Cap......... and a bad seal do to a crash from before I owned the bike the neck was messed up a bit.. smoothed that out and a new cap.. problem gone.


check that cap again!....


also to be DOUBLE sure.... you can "rent" a radiator tester from advance auto ( and others I'm sure) make sure your holding pressure in the cooling system... it's cheap ( you "pay" 70 for the tester.. return it get all your cash back) and you have the full piece of mind that the cooling system is solid... it will also test the cap. ( when I tested my cap .. tho it didn't seem to be leaking was only holding 5-6 lbs of pressure.. shoulda been 16... new cap all fixed... and since I found a "car version" it was only 6 bucks instead of the apparently gold plated one that honda sells for 50. )

[clublights]

And I'll piggy back on this topic unless I get no responses .. then I'll make a new one...

does anyone have a 4 Carb Sync I can borrow?

Tho Tfogg's rates are VERY reasonable...

I think I might have more of a problem then just carbs outta sync so I don't wanna ride over there...do it .. then figger out I have more issues to fix then redo it ... [Bang]

Beer, or Ammo of choice can be provided for this favor ... [Beer]

[JohnTRourke]

head gasket.

[streetglideok]

Have you used a coolant tester to test the freezing point/boiling point of the coolant? If its not at least a 50/50 mix, your boiling point will be too low, and youll have your problems. If that checks fine, Id suspect the radiator cap not holding pressure in the system. Plugs are too new to tell anything. Its not running rich, I can say that. More info would be great as to the bike.

[Great-Kazoo]

Timing. incorrect timing will cause over heating / lean running which i have seen ending up punching a nice little hole in your piston.

better money spent with an experienced (Togger) tech than a pile of scrap

[islandermyk]

I am no expert by no means... just have a little experience with this stuff.

What type of test did you do checking the water pump's function? Did you have the bike run while peeping through the radiator's fill hole and watch the fluids circulate/move (of course when it is cool and not pressurized)? With a full radiator you can observe the fluid move in a clock wise or counter clockwise motion from the fill hole (where the radiator cap is secured) or you can observe the fluids get sucked down into the cooling system when you start your engine as well. Which gives you an indication that your water pump is working. That's as much as I know about cooling systems.

I believe that fuel to air adjustments only helps keep your valves cool/engine head. I've ran my past bike lean at one point installing some headers, air-filter, PAIR VALVE elimination kit, but no fuel or air/carb adjustments. Spark plugs looked white grayish powdered... but no overheating. It was a Yamaha FZR 600.

Sorry I couldn't be much help... but hope this helped good luck with the fix[Beer]

[GunsRBadMMMMKay]

What's the gap on those plugs ( I just thoght they looked like they were touching in the pic...really doesnt have anything to do with your porblem lol)? I agree with checking teh cap and waterpump. Fuel boiling over from heat probably means its either not moving or not staying under enough pressure (the higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point...the cap controls the pressure so if it's bad, your water will cook like it does on your stove instead off a pressure cooker). A head gasket could interfere with the flow of the coolant if it was bad...

You're wanting like what they put in teh back of the haynes manuals...looks like
http://www.mudinmyblood.net/forum/images/reading_spark_plugs.jpg

[K31Fan]

Please tell, what kind of bike / engine ?
However, it is not so simple. If you run the bike easy on city streets, have to be super lean mixture and some other problems if it boils.

Depending on engine and circumstances, blown head gasket does not always mean huge amount white smoke and "milk".

Its a 1995 zx7-L3. So far the motorcycle has only been overheating at idle, or slow speeds. It seems the air rushing around it at highway speeds cools it enough to keep it under correct temp...wait, wha-? How do I diagnose a head gasket leak then? [Help]



Bad Radiator Cap......... and a bad seal do to a crash from before I owned the bike the neck was messed up a bit.. smoothed that out and a new cap.. problem gone.


Sounds like a damn good idea. I'll bet my local Autozone would have one.


If its not at least a 50/50 mix, your boiling point will be too low, and youll have your problems.

The coolant came premixed 50/50. So I may be incorrectly assuming that the manufacturer mixed it correctly. But that seems a little out there to me. What else would you like to know about the bike? :) In terms of miles it has 13xxx on it, and it's a 1995 Kawasaki ZX7-L3 model.




What type of test did you do checking the water pump's function?



I saw the coolant get sucked back into the bike when I blipped the throttle (also makes me think it's not a head gasket problem). And I took the water pump cover off and saw the impeller turn while the engine was running. The impeller isn't loose, and it won't turn after the engine is off since it's gear-driven.


Timing. incorrect timing will cause over heating / lean running


Good idea! That's definitely a possibility. I haven't worked on the timing yet... Are you talking about ignition timing? Engine timing? Or are they both the same thing?

[Byte Stryke]

Are you talking about ignition timing? Engine timing? Or are they both the same thing?

yes,

correction... they are USUALLY the same thing, as long as your timing chain/Gear hasn't jumped

[Hannu]

If you want to be sure about head gasket and/or other internal mechanical problems, bring your bike to a place that has engine leakdown tester... and someone who knows how to use it ;)
Side note; many Japanese motorcycle engines have adjustable cam wheels so you can actually adjust each cam separately.

If your bike ONLY boils while idling or driving slow and works nice when ur on I-25 going 80mph, do not worry about fuel mixture, ignition / cam timings etc. things that need pressure inside cylinder to heat up the engine.

You probably know you need lower temp thermostat at 5000 ft than at sea level ?

[K31Fan]

If your bike ONLY boils while idling or driving slow and works nice when ur on I-25 going 80mph, do not worry about fuel mixture, ignition / cam timings etc. things that need pressure inside cylinder to heat up the engine.

You probably know you need lower temp thermostat at 5000 ft than at sea level ?

...That really doesn't make sense to me - not contesting it, just saying I don't understand.

Anyway, there's only one type of thermostat available for the bike. And that's the 82 Centigrade (179 Fahrenheit) one.

Also, why would running lean not be a problem if the bike doesn't overheat at highway speeds? Doesn't that just mean the air is cooling it down faster?

[Hannu]

When pressure in cylinder is very low (like when engine is idling), ignition timing, mixture etc. things have very little to do how the engine heats up - you can adjust both pretty alot to any direction and as long as engine keeps running relatively smoothly it does not heat up anymore when engine is idling - but only if cooling system is working properly.

But because there is no cooling air flow, problems with cooling system have very much to do how engine heats up while idling.
+in order to make fan work properly, there must be proper cooling liquid flow in the engine. Pressure loss, air in cooling system etc. will make fan much less effective and that is specially visible when radiator does not have lots of airflow and water pump speed is low.
For example, if there is air blockage in cooling system near fan switch - engine will boil before fan even starts working because switch is getting wrong info. And when you test fan, switch etc. everything seems to be fine.

When driving faster engine / water pump rpm is higher, both coolant and air flow through radiator is much bigger - problems with pressurizing, local boiling etc. are usually much less visible... but only before you have white smoke coming out from tailpipes :(

When pressure cylinder is high, mixture has very much to do what kind of temperatures are happening and where exactly. When cylinder pressure is high, too lean mixture will cause engine to heat up _locally_ (cylinder head, valves, pistons etc) which is usually not possible to see in temp gauge, at least before it is too late. Too much ignition advance, too much boost and some other things cause pretty much the same.
When mixture is too lean - temp raises - uncontrolled mixture burning called knocking starts - ruined piston and usually lots of other broken things too.
Very sometimes you will get early warning if engine temp is rising when pushing the engine at high load rate for a long time.

Many engines (specially charged) use extra rich mixture up top to cool engine down. Some engines use toluene, water etc. and separate injectors to do the same etc.

Of course, this is all very much simplified and guessing - like gunsmith telling you why your pistol is not running by listening your shooting :)
Hope this will still clear at least something.

Those were the times, when I was drilling small holes to thermostats... Do not do this at home unless you know 110% what are you doin; thermostat also has a big effect on cooling system pressure @ high rpm ;)

[Great-Kazoo]

...That really doesn't make sense to me - not contesting it, just saying I don't understand.

Anyway, there's only one type of thermostat available for the bike. And that's the 82 Centigrade (179 Fahrenheit) one.

Also, why would running lean not be a problem if the bike doesn't overheat at highway speeds? Doesn't that just mean the air is cooling it down faster?

this is why i have mentioned before take it to someone who actually does mc repair for a living. you are doing 1/2 ass guess work, asking for input then questioning their help. you say your knowledge is minimal ,so pay the piper now instead of having a motorcycle with a seized engine

[wctriumph]

Replace the radiator cap as this is most likely the issue. We see this problem every once in a while and it is always the cap.

[K31Fan]

.....

Thanks for taking the time to explain Hannu; that makes total sense now! I hope Boulder County is still treating you well!


you are doing 1/2 ass guess work, asking for input then questioning their help. you say your knowledge is minimal ,so pay the piper now instead of having a motorcycle with a seized engine

Jim, some of the best mechanics I've known started out doing half-assed guess work at first. And yes, if I don't understand the advice that someone has kindly offered, I'll ask if they can explain it a little to aid my understanding; something that seems like a fairly normal process to me... As to the engine possibly running lean, I'm still working on that (and trying not to seize the engine! ha!) and while I definitely understand the loyalty to TFOGGER here on the forum, I'm actually trying to learn how to fix it myself! But thanks for the input!;)


Replace the radiator cap as this is most likely the issue. We see this problem every once in a while and it is always the cap.

I think I'm with you and clublights on this one. I'm going to rent a pressure testing tool from my local auto parts store this week, and see if its the cap!

Thanks for all the advice dudes! [Weight]

Edit: 100 posts! F**K YEAH! I'll be a grand master know it all before you know it! :D

[K31Fan]

Has anybody here ever DIY'd it concerning radiator cap pressure tester adapters? I got one, but I don't have an adaption small enough to test the radiator cap. At first blush I'd say I just need a different sized adapter, but I'm hoping that there's a simpler way to test it, considering I have to return the pressure tester on Friday, and I really don't want to have to order special adapters for a rented tool.

Any brilliant ideas floatin' around with them naked girls in your heads?

Incidentally, I find I'm coming on here more and more often for advice. The help I get is really great; so far it's helped me fix a legion of stuff wrong with this bike! So thanks guys! [Beer]

[clublights]

The one I had from advance auto had like 8-10 some odd adapters and a universal one too .... that like clamps around it or something.. for me.... the one that fit honda cars fit my honda bike... not sure about a kawi.

[clublights]

I did a search and I couldn't find a car reference to your bike or to a list of bikes I found that use the same cap as yours

http://www.zzr-international.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3999&start=0

but it's so common I'd suspect that a kawi dealer would have it in stock...

use the universal radiator tester to pressurize the cooling system ( should look like a large step drill bit at least the one in my kit did ) make sure the system is holding pressure if it is .. then just bite the bullet and go grab a new cap.

looks to be a 30 buck cap ( OUCH! seems Kawi is like honda bikes.. everything is made of gold)

But if your cooling system is holding the pressure then it must be the cap.

I'm not sure if anyone asked before...

when the bike is fully warmed up are the coolant hoses " hard " ? I'm not sure what your bike's system pressure is but at the 16psi mine is at they are pretty stiff compared to cold ... with the tester you don't have to warm the bike up you can make the pressure with the pump.

[K31Fan]

Weird...

I took the bike for a test run yesterday to see how much coolant would boil out of the radiator - this is of course after I pressure tested the cooling system. It runs fine now, no overheating, and the coolant level is fine. [Rant1]

I'm not sure if 'Godbless' or 'Goddamn' is warranted at this point.

Anyway, thanks for all your advice guys! It really helps to have people who know about motorcycles to bounce some ideas off on.

[clublights]

Cap musta been ever so slightly crooked or just didn't seal correctly... I'd still be ready to pick up a spare one .. just in case.

[Hoser]

( OUCH! seems Kawi is like honda bikes.. everything is made of gold)

Be glad you dont ride a BMW...

[clublights]

Be glad you dont ride a BMW...

Everything made of platinum ??? or at least BMW thinks so ?

[Hoser]

Everything made of platinum ??? or at least BMW thinks so ?

Pretty much.

BMW and KTM are pricey for everything. I thought about a KTM 450 and remembered how much it costs to repair broken KTM goodies. So I walked away.