View Full Version : Has anybody here actually had to use their weapon?
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 01:13
Just curious. I know most of the guys here carry, including myself, just wondering if anybody here has actually been in a situation where they had to put it to use.
I had an incident tonight where I was very close to doing so... didn't draw, but I was holding the grip with the full weight of the gun in my hand. Then realized it was a bat in the guy's hand (I thought he'd grabbed a shotgun at first) and decided the situation could be easily/better solved with hand to hand. That was as close as I've been to drawing and possibly pulling the trigger.
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 02:34
Tag?
I think sturtle beat you to it...
http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16458
Tag?
So he can find this thread later.
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 02:37
Suppose I should do a search before I post a thread... 'scuse my 'tard-ism [Coffee]
Although, unlike his thread I don't care about the "oh sh*t!" NG stories... I was thinking more about situations where you intentionally draw, aim, and/or fire on a threat.
Tag?
Ya, if someone posts something I'll get email notification....
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 02:42
Ya, if someone posts something I'll get email notification....
Ah, cool.
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 02:59
What, you mean the incident earlier tonight?
flan7211
07-19-2011, 03:23
yeah i need to hear this story.
That makes three of us...tell tell tell.
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 03:57
Me, a friend who's in from out of town (girl), and a buddy of ours (guy) went out. Place is in a not so nice part of town (Broadway and Evans area), parked on a residential street around the corner. On our way back out our buddy kicked a can, and some guy sitting on his porch starts yelling at us about littering and throwing trash all over where he lives and such, calling us all kinds of things. Buddy yells back at him, calling him an a**hole, explaining that he kicked a can that was laying in the road. Guy says something like "what the f*ck did you call me?," sets a can down (I'm assuming beer, and I don't think it was his first one of the evening), gets up and starts walking towards us. Stops at the end of his porch, turns around and opens his door, reaches inside for something leaning against the wall by the door. My first thought is he's getting a shotgun or other long arm, and my hand is on my gun. Its dark, and even though his dim porch light is on he's far enough away that its tough to make out details (we're in the middle of the street, he's across his lawn on the porch). Then he turns around and starts towards us with a long dark object in his hand, and I get the gun in my hand but keep it concealed in the holster... my thinking being that I don't want him to see me drawing on him and shoot at us, I'll wait till I get a chance to get a clean shot off before he can react. He gets about 10 ft away and I can see that its a baseball bat, and decide its best to take care of this without weapons. He walks up to within striking distance of our buddy directly in front of him, I move to his 2 o'clock so I can get behind and choke him out when he swings and is off balance, and our female friend is in the middle of me and our buddy and a little ways back. He and my buddy are yelling at each other and the guy raises the bat and fake swings at him. Buddy doesn't flinch which seems to piss him off, and I remember thinking "wait till he strikes, wait till he strikes, don't move until he hits him." Then he winds up and fake swings again, getting real close to my buddy's head. I told him that if he makes contact with that bat, it'd be the dumbest thing he's ever done. Until now I'd been letting him focus on my buddy so I can make my move and surprise him, but when I said that he looked over at me and stared at me for a second, then backed away and started walking back to his property still talking sh*t. Buddy yelled a couple things back at him (not the brightest guy) but he didn't turn around. We got in the car and drove off pretty quick.
After driving for a bit, the female friend said that she was more scared by the look I had on my face than by the asshat with the bat. Said that it was a mix of "I'm going to kill you" and completely emotionless and cold.
Couple things are sticking in my head about this.
1. I was exactly as I told myself I'd be. I didn't hesitate in my decision to use lethal force when I thought he had a gun, I didn't even get a significant adrenaline rush like I've had in fist fights. I was 100% ready to pull the trigger, and I was completely cool about it. Part of me is scared by how cold I was about it, but another part is thankful that I know I can keep my cool should something happen in the future.
2. My decision not to draw on him still after it was apparent he had a bat not a gun was based mainly on how much of a pain it would be to put up with all the court crap should things go south. Not so much that I was afraid of it (see my sig), just that it could have been handled so easily hand to hand that it wasn't worth the trouble. Had my girlfriend been with me, I think I probably would have drawn on him... I'm not willing to draw a dangerous situation out longer than it needs to be by fighting someone when she's around, I'd rather eliminate the threat as quickly and effectively as possible.
flan7211
07-19-2011, 04:06
First off, you are now dating the girl?[Beer]
Second, Bravo about keeping the gun holstered. If you knew the feel of the situation than you know you did the right thing. It feels weird when you almost or do draw.
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 04:12
First off, you are now dating the girl?[Beer]
Second, Bravo about keeping the gun holstered. If you knew the feel of the situation than you know you did the right thing. It feels weird when you almost or do draw.
Its definitely a weird feeling. I'm sure you know the feeling, living in Greeley and all [ROFL1] (I won't drive through there unless I'm heavily armed). I'm glad I didn't have to use it though.
I'm dating the girl you're thinking of, the one from those pics I posted a little while ago (F*CK YEAH!). She wasn't there tonight, the girl I was with tonight is a close friend from the beginning of high school that came to town for a couple weeks.
I'm definitely very glad my girlfriend wasn't there for this, for her sake and mine. I certainly don't want her involved in any kind of dangerous situation for obvious reasons, and I don't want to be worrying about where she is, is anybody getting close to her, is she in the line of fire, etc. when I'm dealing with such a situation.
But, I gotta say a little part of me kind of wishes she was there. She stayed over this last weekend and as I was getting dressed and getting ready to take her home she made a comment like "isn't that a little overkill?" (referring to my .357, my BUG, the 4.75" folder in my pocket, and the 3" push blade I carry at my 12:30 canted slightly towards my right side). We had a conversation about how there are some really dumb people out there and things can happen anytime, anywhere, to anyone, but I don't think it really hit home with her (still working on that bit).
bobbyfairbanks
07-19-2011, 04:25
I didn't even get a significant adrenaline rush like I've had in fist fights.
I am calling BS on you. No one and I mean no but a psycho would not get a rush from almost pulling his gun.
I am sure you where so cold and mindlessly ready to kill. Watch your BS buddy. Some people around here have been in fights with bullets flying.
flan7211
07-19-2011, 04:35
Mr. Fairbanks maybe you can cool it. No fists actually flew, one can stay quite calculated until that first blow.
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 04:39
I am calling BS on you. No one and I mean no but a psycho would not get a rush from almost pulling his gun.
I am sure you where so cold and mindlessly ready to kill. Watch your BS buddy. Some people around here have been in fights with bullets flying.
[ROFL1]
Guess I'm a psycho then.
In the fist fights I've gotten in, I've always felt a huge adrenaline high afterward. With this, sure my heart was racing but there was no feel-your-heart-pounding in your head, almost buzzed feeling like with fist fights. Maybe its cause I wasn't moving around a whole lot, maybe its because I didn't expect any injuries from the incident (he was very focused on my buddy, I was background stuff to him). Maybe I'm just a psycho.
Who exactly do you think I'm trying to impress?
I have a huge dick.
I can bench 1,000 lbs.
I can lick my elbow.
See, easy to tell when I'm BSing you.
lethal, no.
less-lethal, YES
Thanks for sharing! Im glad eveerthing turned out ok.
the last time i had to pull a weapon on somebody was right out front of my house .
so i was coming home late one night and 2 cars blocked me as i was trying to park . noticing that both cars were full of armed crip's (at least 2 shotguns that i saw) and before i even realized what the hell was going on , one of them is starting to get out and come over toward me . so i pulled up grace (ruger p94 , best truck gun ever ) , pointed at the gang banger and said "this is my resolve mother f*ck*r " . the one i had the drop on almost sh*t himself and his buddies started to yell at him to get in the car . in an instant they were gone with wheels screeching and me realizing they were trying to car jack me and how lucky i was not to have to shoot a teenager .
Byte Stryke
07-19-2011, 06:35
Thanks for sharing! Im glad eveerthing turned out ok.
+1
glad nothing serious happened
and by serious I mean, no one has a scar or is in jail.
Dude,
Chicks dig scars.
funny cause its true
Byte Stryke
07-19-2011, 06:58
Dude,
Chicks dig scars.funny cause its true
yeah, take my word for it... not always
I started a thread about this years ago. I can't find it at the moment.
Bailey Guns
07-19-2011, 07:35
I didn't even get a significant adrenaline rush like I've had in fist fights.
I am calling BS on you. No one and I mean no but a psycho would not get a rush from almost pulling his gun.
I am sure you where so cold and mindlessly ready to kill. Watch your BS buddy. Some people around here have been in fights with bullets flying.
I've drawn my gun on people more times than I can count (of course, it was on the job), about 1/2 dozen of those times I thought I'd have to pull the trigger, and a couple of those times actually had pressure on the trigger to fire. Never had to go through with it, though. Once had bullets flying overhead but couldn't see where they were coming from.
The feelings I experienced were never the same twice. Sometimes I had to fight off tunnel vision while focusing on the target. Sometimes everything seemed so right and natural with what I was doing that I actually felt very peaceful about the whole situation. Other times it was like all hell had broken loose...confusion, adrenaline rush, fear, etc...
I find his story completely plausible. Although, I would've had a hard time not ventilating that turd if he was starting to swing a bat at my buddy's head. Of course, when you're actually there you can "read" things much better than you can through "reading" it afterwards. So I understand.
I drew my gun on people twice at my gun store:
1) Oct 1, 2000. My first day in 14 years not wearing a badge.
Kid is driving like a maniac through the parking lot and sprays gravel and dirt all over the front of my bldg and the cars parked there. I went out and had a little chat with him when he parked at the restaurant next door. We wound up shaking hands and he apologized and everything was cool.
I kept thinking I recognized the kid (mid-20 something years old) in the passenger seat.
I went back to the shop. Next thing I know, driver and passenger come into the shop. Instant red flags. Driver is very non-confrontational, head down, aimlessly walking around without making eye contact, obviously doesn't want to be there.
Passenger, on the other hand, definitely wants to be there and to make a point. He walks right up the other side of the counter where I was standing, right hand in his front pocket looks like it's wrapped around something because it appears to balled up into a fist.
He stared at me for about 5 seconds. I was eating a sandwich. I put it down, looked him in the eye and asked, "Can I help you with something?"
He said, "Do I look like I need help?"
"Yes, you do", I said.
"Why's that", said Mr Tough Guy.
"Because you're eye-f**king me and I don't like it", I told him. At that point I drew my gun which I was wearing openly - a Kimber Ultra Carry (still carry it). I told him he needed to take his hand out of his pocket and he better be holding nothing but air.
The kid didn't blink, look scared, nothing. I'm starting to remember him a little more as the seconds go by and at this point I'm pretty sure I'd arrested him before but I couldn't remember when or where. I kept telling him to leave the store. Driver had vanished as soon as I started having the little tit-for-tat with passenger. He was headed back to the truck and looked like he wanted to be anywhere but here.
Kid started backing out of the store but never took his hand out. He got to the door, told me to go f**k myself, turned around and started hauling ass across the parking lot towards Hwy 285.
I don't know why but I started to chase him...old habits, I guess. I yelled at my partner to call 911 as I ran out the door. I ran across the parking lot to the highway, watched Mr Tough Guy running across the highway up main street, and decided to terminate the pursuit because there was a lot of traffic on the highway and I would've never caught him anyway.
I started walking back to the store and I heard the sirens light up...one from the south side of Bailey down towards the sub-station and the other from up Crow Hill somewhere. Deputies arrived about a minute later.
I told them what happened. They went to look for the little bastard and showed up with him in cuffs about 10 minutes later. One of them went over his info with me and that's when it hit me. I'd arrested him for Burglary 1st (he was armed with a handgun and he was 15) in 1996 in Conifer. They didn't find any weapons on him this time but he had some meth in his pocket so he was going to jail. One of the deputies said the kid told him he remembered who I was and he just wanted a little "payback".
2) A guy - the kind that just makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck - pulls up in front of the store and started coming in.
When he opened the door my little dog, Stella, ran around the counter to greet/bark at whoever it was, as usual.
He walked in, initially ignored Stella, looked at me and looked around for a few seconds. Gave me the creeps for some reason. Stella had stopped barking but moved in to give the guy a sniff. She was a good judge of character and was acting very cautiously with this guy. Very out of character for Stella. As she sniffed his boot he drew back his leg like he was gonna kick Stella. NOBODY hurts my dog.
I had kinda moved around to a position of advantage on the guy with a counter between him and me. When he drew his leg back I drew my Kimber and told him if he hurt my dog that would be the last thing he ever did. He looked very startled and was staring at the business end of the Kimber. He said he was just kidding, I said I wasn't and told him to leave. He did.
I was gonna call the sheriff's office but the phone rang and I got tied up for a few minutes. About the time I was ready to call, a couple of deputies pulled up out front.
"Did you threaten to shoot a guy?"
"Yes, I did. I've never seen the guy around before. He came in, looked very aggressive, tried to kick my dog. I figured if he came in to my store, knew that I was obviously armed and still tried to kick my dog after seeing me, he was probably coming after me next. I was terrified of what the guy might do. Blah, blah, blah."
The deputy smiled and said, "OK, we'll go talk to him." He obviously wasn't buying my story about being scared but there wasn't much he could do.
The guy is lucky he didn't kick Stella.
quick post for now-
I have transported two baseball bat + head, patients. I would have thought more seriously about drawing that weapon. A baseball bat can kill you. It can very easily ruin the rest of your life if it makes contact with your skull. One swing. I have lost enough fights to not take chances and never overestimate my own skill, be careful! Up close, if he is fast enough, I would have given him the edge in that fight, at striking range, a gun in the holster looses to a bat in the hand, and if he swung, its one on one. I don't want a "and X from the forum got killed by an old idot with a bat" thread.
I dont know if I'm different but if some asshole is coming at me with a baseball bat and starts to "fake" swing, I'm drawing my weapon. I might not use it but thats just way to close for comfort.
Its better to be safe then sorry.
blacklabel
07-19-2011, 09:11
It sounds like you did well mcantar18c. I've got a buddy that runs his mouth too much when I'm around knowing that I'll have his back. It's gotten us into a couple of interesting situations but fortunately no one's been hurt.
The only thought I had was whether or not you could have made an honest attempt to retreat. It sounded like there was an opportunity to remove yourselves from the situation while the homeowner was approaching you but of course I wasn't there so I'm not going to say you did the wrong thing by allowing him to approach.
I've never actually had to draw, but I have had to "show and tell" once when a guy came up on me in the Highlands. I was walking from my car to a friend's car to give them directions to a mutual friends house and a stranger approached me from some side street and said "Nice beemer, mind if I take it for a joyride?" His intention sounded anything but joking and I immediately retorted with something like "I don't f***ing think so, bub." He continued to approach and that's when I realized the situation wasn't going to go in a great direction. I felt no adrenaline either like the OP stated (call it combat training, confidence, what have you). As soon as he got just outside of about 6 feet I lifted my shirt showing that I had my Springfield 1911 on my hip (not quite broad daylight, but the sun was still above the horizon). "I'm gonna have to ask you not to come any closer." He stopped dead in his tracks and decided his life wasn't worth losing over trying to muscle a new car out of me. After he left I turned to my friend and say what I always say when a situation gets slightly hairy "Woo, that puckered up my butthole!"
If I ever have to draw I'll be following the Secret Service rule: Never draw your weapon unless you absolutely intend to use it.
Is it just me or can anyone else see the news article if the OP had shot the guy.
Local residents fed up with intoxicated youths trashing their streets as the local dive bars empty, knew it would end in tragedy!
A local man was shot and killed on his front lawn yesterday evening by patrons of a local dive bar. Neighbors say they heard the man ask the youths not to kick the garbage cans in the neighborhood and a verbal altercation started. The man's wife and 2 children, testified that their husband and father went to quickly investigate that his property was not being damaged, fearing that the three youths might be intoxicated, aggressive and as they obviously outnumbered this father of three, Mr X took his son's little league bat. Little did Mr X know that he was about to be the target of premeditated murder as he was ambushed and was shot several times in the back!
Mr. X was a devoted father and husband and had twice received a certificate of good citizenship from the city once for rescuing a trapped elderly neighbor from her burning home. He was also a volunteer firefighter and coached his son's little league team for the past four seasons...
I have to say from your account, you are very lucky that it was not more serious. If some shit head was kicking garbage cans in my neighborhood and then cussed at me when I told him to stop. I definitely would have come down to have a talk and I certainly wouldn't have been armed with just a bat, and if some punk tried to flank me with his hand on a gun we would have found out who puts in more quality time in at the range...
I would strongly suggest that you an your friends really think about the consequences of your actions. Kicking cans late at night is idiotic and immature behavior, then to stand there and cuss out the home owner who calls you out on it and even get ready to shoot the guy is completely stupid and potentially criminal.
You should have told your friend to apologize and quickly left before the homeowner came out. I know half a dozen guys in Denver if you had tried that shit on their front lawn it would have gone down very very differently. Count yourself lucky that you are not in hospital or jail this morning, and really think about what you are doing.
Cameron
ghettodub
07-19-2011, 10:26
Is it just me or can anyone else see the news article if the OP had shot the guy.
I have to say from your account, you are very lucky that it was not more serious. If some shit head was kicking garbage cans in my neighborhood and then cussed at me when I told him to stop. I definitely would have come down to have a talk and I certainly wouldn't have been armed with just a bat, and if some punk tried to flank me with his hand on a gun we would have found out who puts in more quality time in at the range...
I would strongly suggest that you an your friends really think about the consequences of your actions. Kicking cans late at night is idiotic and immature behavior, then to stand there and cuss out the home owner who calls you out on it and even get ready to shoot the guy is completely stupid and potentially criminal.
You should have told your friend to apologize and quickly left before the homeowner came out. I know half a dozen guys in Denver if you had tried that shit on their front lawn it would have gone down very very differently. Count yourself lucky that you are not in hospital or jail this morning, and really think about what you are doing.
Cameron
Agreed that you have to really be careful and not do stupid crap to piss people off.
Bailey Guns
07-19-2011, 10:47
Is it just me or can anyone else see the news article if the OP had shot the guy.
I have to say from your account, you are very lucky that it was not more serious. If some shit head was kicking garbage cans in my neighborhood and then cussed at me when I told him to stop. I definitely would have come down to have a talk and I certainly wouldn't have been armed with just a bat, and if some punk tried to flank me with his hand on a gun we would have found out who puts in more quality time in at the range...
I would strongly suggest that you an your friends really think about the consequences of your actions. Kicking cans late at night is idiotic and immature behavior, then to stand there and cuss out the home owner who calls you out on it and even get ready to shoot the guy is completely stupid and potentially criminal.
You should have told your friend to apologize and quickly left before the homeowner came out. I know half a dozen guys in Denver if you had tried that shit on their front lawn it would have gone down very very differently. Count yourself lucky that you are not in hospital or jail this morning, and really think about what you are doing.
Cameron
First of all, he didn't say it was late at night. Second, I don't think it was a trash can he was kicking. I assumed from the context of the story, maybe incorrectly, it was something like a soda can...not the guy's trash can.
Then you have the nerve to chastise the OP for what his buddy did and how "stupid and potentially criminal" his behavior was and in the next breath talk about confronting someone for basically the same thing?
So you're willing to confront someone after arming yourself with a gun over that person kicking a can in the road. And then get into a gunfight if the persons you confront take steps to protect themselves or talk back to you. And yet the other guys are stupid and need to think about their behavior.
Yeah....I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that.
pulled yes, fired no.
Cut yes, dead yes.
trlcavscout
07-19-2011, 11:14
quick post for now-
I have transported two baseball bat + head, patients. I would have thought more seriously about drawing that weapon. A baseball bat can kill you. It can very easily ruin the rest of your life if it makes contact with your skull. One swing. I have lost enough fights to not take chances and never overestimate my own skill, be careful! Up close, if he is fast enough, I would have given him the edge in that fight, at striking range, a gun in the holster looses to a bat in the hand, and if he swung, its one on one. I don't want a "and X from the forum got killed by an old idot with a bat" thread.
+1
If they swing a bat they just took it to the next level same with a knife. If it comes down to hand to hand one on one that's fine, 2 on 1 or a weapon of any kind and its getting ugly.
Byte Stryke
07-19-2011, 11:14
First of all, he didn't say it was late at night. Second, I don't think it was a trash can he was kicking. I assumed from the context of the story, maybe incorrectly, it was something like a soda can...not the guy's trash can.
Then you have the nerve to chastise the OP for what his buddy did and how "stupid and potentially criminal" his behavior was and in the next breath talk about confronting someone for basically the same thing?
So you're willing to confront someone after arming yourself with a gun over that person kicking a can in the road. And then get into a gunfight if the persons you confront take steps to protect themselves or talk back to you. And yet the other guys are stupid and need to think about their behavior.
Yeah....I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that.
and then there is the fact the man left his residence and his property line to confront someone after having initiated a verbal confrontation.
edit: and Yes, I am in agreement that deadly force could be seen as justified against an aggressor with a baseball bat. I believe that is included in the "serious bodily injury" section.
stevelkinevil
07-19-2011, 11:29
Ok not exactly what the OP was getting at in asking as I was an LEO in Vegas at the time and I was moonlighting as a loss prevention agent at the time but one of the oddest encounters I have had none the less and the only one in plain clothes carrying concealed (we werent supposed to carry but they looked the other way for moonlighting LEOs). So anyway I had been lurking around doing my job in the Smiths (same as King soopers here) which was in North Las Vegas in a nasty part of town and had to use the restroom, I open the door and I see a man standing in the middle of the floor, not even in a stall, holding up his "twig and berries" with one hand and shooting himself up with what I later found to be methamphetamine with the other hand, IN HIS NACHO (or taint if you prefer)!!!. I was about 6 feet away from the guy and wasnt about to get stabbed with a god knows what tainted needle so I drew my carry gun which was a Walther P99 (used a 1911 on duty) and advised him to drop the needle, the dumb bastard, who didn't realize I was there till this point, raises the needle and takes a step forward, thank gawd he dropped it and complied from that point on because my finger had taken up all the travel on the DA trigger. Would I have been justified in shooting him? you better believe it, at that range and with what could be considered a deadly weapon raised I would have been OK. Scary part is if he had wanted to continue that attack nothing but a well placed head shot likely would have stopped him at that range.
stevelkinevil
07-19-2011, 11:31
and then there is the fact the man left his residence and his property line to confront someone after having initiated a verbal confrontation.
edit: and Yes, I am in agreement that deadly force could be seen as justified against an aggressor with a baseball bat. I believe that is included in the "serious bodily injury" section.
A baseball bat absolutely qualifies, had this been an off duty police officer he was dealing with we would have all been reading about it in the news today if you catch my drift.
edit: and Yes, I am in agreement that deadly force could be seen as justified against an aggressor with a baseball bat. I believe that is included in the "serious bodily injury" section.
Easily explained to LE, especially when he has more than 1 witness... "I feared for my friend's life and thus used necessary force to prevent serious bodily injury." Open and shut... I too have seen what damage a bat can cause to the cranium, it is not pretty. Even if you survive the initial blow there can be extensive damage and long term injury. I have a very delicate case on my hands when it comes to self defense... I suffer from Cervical Spine Rediculopothy (I had a neck injury that led to the surgical removal of one of my C-spine discs and now I have "equipment" connecting two of my vertebrae), TBI and PTSD, I have a very viable reason to defend myself from potential serious bodily injury, one wrong move and I could be either dead or paralyzed and I have every right to prevent this from happening caused by any altercation.
Actually he did say it was dark, I didn't say how late, and in reality the point was not what time it was but just how dangerous to life and liberty the situation OP had put himself in.
Why stay and confront the homeowner at all?
Why not quickly take his friends safely away?
Then the fact that the guy "fake" swings a bat at a friends head!! What if one hadn't been a fake swing that his buddy didn't flinch at. A baseball bat to the head is potentially deadly. It is an insane situation to put yourself in, and it is obvious the OP actually put himself in the situation. I have to say, if someone "fake" swings a baseball bat at my friend's head I really would have thought about fake pulling my gun and fake shooting the guy. Faking a swing at someone's head with a baseball bat is, as I understand it, a justifiable reason for being shot.
I'm all for protecting yourself by whatever means necessary, and I've used firearms both defensively and offensively, but I have also made serious mistakes before, by not making avoiding stupid confrontations a priority.
I'm not going to leap in here and tell the OP he should have capped the guy and it was a righteous shoot! I was simply trying to play the devil's advocate and show that there is another way that the circumstances could have been seen. We don't know if the homeowner was sipping a coke and keeping a watch out for others that may have perpetrated property crimes in the area. There is a lot we don't know. What we do know, from the OP's descriptions, is that he certainly had the opportunity to get out of a potentially bad situation and in staying made it potentially even worse.
Cameron
ETA: I have certainly made some errors in judgement, that put me and those I care about in dangerous situations. I may have even caused trouble that I could have avoided. However, once the situation has become unavoidable and we are in a self defense situation it doesn't really matter how we ended up there it now only matters that we survive.
Cam
First of all, he didn't say it was late at night. Second, I don't think it was a trash can he was kicking. I assumed from the context of the story, maybe incorrectly, it was something like a soda can...not the guy's trash can.
Then you have the nerve to chastise the OP for what his buddy did and how "stupid and potentially criminal" his behavior was and in the next breath talk about confronting someone for basically the same thing?
So you're willing to confront someone after arming yourself with a gun over that person kicking a can in the road. And then get into a gunfight if the persons you confront take steps to protect themselves or talk back to you. And yet the other guys are stupid and need to think about their behavior.
Yeah....I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that.
Actually he did say it was dark, I didn't say how late, and in reality the point was not what time it was but just how dangerous to life and liberty the situation OP had put himself in.
Why stay and confront the homeowner at all?
Why not quickly take his friends safely away?
Then the fact that the guy "fake" swings a bat at a friends head!! What if one hadn't been a fake swing that his buddy didn't flinch at. A baseball bat to the head is potentially deadly. It is an insane situation to put yourself in, and it is obvious the OP actually put himself in the situation. I have to say, if someone "fake" swings a baseball bat at my friend's head I really would have thought about fake pulling my gun and fake shooting the guy. Faking a swing at someone's head with a baseball bat is, as I understand it, a justifiable reason for being shot.
x 1,000,000
Byte Stryke
07-19-2011, 13:28
Easily explained to LE, especially when he has more than 1 witness... "I feared for my friend's life and thus used necessary force to prevent serious bodily injury." Open and shut... I too have seen what damage a bat can cause to the cranium, it is not pretty. Even if you survive the initial blow there can be extensive damage and long term injury. I have a very delicate case on my hands when it comes to self defense... I suffer from Cervical Spine Rediculopothy (I had a neck injury that led to the surgical removal of one of my C-spine discs and now I have "equipment" connecting two of my vertebrae), TBI and PTSD, I have a very viable reason to defend myself from potential serious bodily injury, one wrong move and I could be either dead or paralyzed and I have every right to prevent this from happening caused by any altercation.
absolutely.
I think you have endured more than enough to have to worry about some jack-hole playing tough guy.
CrufflerSteve
07-19-2011, 14:09
The disparity of force is a big issue in the less clear cut cases of self defense. From having seen how easy it is to get a TBI (Traumatic Brian Injury), a baseball bat only differs from a gun in that is has shorter range. If someone comes at you swinging one fire a warning shot into his center of mass.
It helps me that I'm older and have a chronic arthritis. My doctor would certify that I could be beat up by a rabbit.
I've never had to draw a gun but I did open a holster once. This is an old thread so I might have mentioned it once. I was collecting rocks along a road in south New Mexico about 10 years ago. It was west of Columbus, the town Pancho Villa invaded, and probably just a few 100 yards from the border.
A junker car with about 5 low life looking young guys came at me in a scene out of Treasure of The Sierra Madre. "Senor what are you doing out here by yourself?" Real creepy. Rude gestures from them and some Spanish words which I'm sure my dear departed Mom ever did. I turned around to show my S&W 586 and unbuckled the holster with my hand on it and they did a U-turn and burned rubber away. It was actually loaded with snake shot but I did have two speed loaders next to it with hollow points.
Steve
DD977GM2
07-19-2011, 14:27
I didn't even get a significant adrenaline rush like I've had in fist fights.
I am calling BS on you. No one and I mean no but a psycho would not get a rush from almost pulling his gun.
I am sure you where so cold and mindlessly ready to kill. Watch your BS buddy. Some people around here have been in fights with bullets flying.
The calmness and cold emotion can and does happen to folks. Military training has a way of making that happen for you.
When I had a guy get out of his vehicle at a stop light after throwing objects at us because h thoguht I cut him off and i tried to wave him off and say Im sorry, when infact he made an illegal alne change and almost hit me. I had the entire fam in the car and I unholstered when he was walking toawrds the vehicle, wife was on the phone with 911 and I had the window cracked and forcefully told him to get back in his vehicle. I was calm and cool and knew what had to be done if he tried to gain entry. He saw the 1911 on my lap and started talking tough for a moment then realized I was dead serious about my intent if he escalated things further and went back to his vehicle. I filed a police report and the detective I was talking to was on my side and said if that douche was anywhere else in Denver,this was in Arvada, he would probably have been shot and it would have been justified by his previous actions and his actions by getting out and advancing on our vehicle. For those that say, just drive off, I was stopped in traffic and in the middle lane and vehicles on all sides. SOmething I dont allow myself to get pinned in to often anymore.
My wife was scared shitless cuz she saw the cold emotionless face I had and how calm I really was. She thought for sure I was going to kill that guy if he did anything stupid. The fact I didnt point it at him or even put my hand on the grip, my firing hand was on my thigh waiting for him to do something was waht the Detective said I did things right.He understood why i had it on my lap as I was backed into a corner so to speak and knew I wanted to be ready for anything. My military training kicked in as to reacting to the situation and staying calm and cool during the altercation. About 10 misn after when reality set in, adrenaline starting kicking in and thats when I kinda lost my cool cuz all I could think of was my kids seeing me shoot a person centermass and killing them on the street. My kids mental state worried more then anything.
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 14:29
I find his story completely plausible. Although, I would've had a hard time not ventilating that turd if he was starting to swing a bat at my buddy's head. Of course, when you're actually there you can "read" things much better than you can through "reading" it afterwards. So I understand.
I was about to make my move... in motion going towards him... when he stopped his swing. As I said I was standing at his 2. Plan was when he swings, jump to my 11 or so so that I'm behind him while grabbing and pushing his swinging arm down and to the right, hook my left arm around him and get him in a sleeper hold and choke him out till he passes out. Then get in the car and get the hell outta dodge.
quick post for now-
I have transported two baseball bat + head, patients. I would have thought more seriously about drawing that weapon. A baseball bat can kill you. It can very easily ruin the rest of your life if it makes contact with your skull. One swing. I have lost enough fights to not take chances and never overestimate my own skill, be careful! Up close, if he is fast enough, I would have given him the edge in that fight, at striking range, a gun in the holster looses to a bat in the hand, and if he swung, its one on one. I don't want a "and X from the forum got killed by an old idot with a bat" thread.
I know... a bat is an impact weapon, and impact weapons can definitely be lethal or cause TBI. Last night I felt that it could have very easily be handled hand to hand, but looking back on the situation (if the same thing ever happens again), I think I just might draw on him when he approaches and leave it at that.
It sounds like you did well mcantar18c. I've got a buddy that runs his mouth too much when I'm around knowing that I'll have his back. It's gotten us into a couple of interesting situations but fortunately no one's been hurt.
The only thought I had was whether or not you could have made an honest attempt to retreat. It sounded like there was an opportunity to remove yourselves from the situation while the homeowner was approaching you but of course I wasn't there so I'm not going to say you did the wrong thing by allowing him to approach.
The car was about twice as far from us as he was, locked, there were three of us that hand to get in through 2 doors, and starting the car takes time.
First thought being he's coming towards us with a shotgun, and seeing he isn't aiming it at us yet, I figured I'd be better off taking it head on and not turning my back on him or giving him time to act while I'm preoccupied. Not to mention, a vehicle is a bullet magnet.
Is it just me or can anyone else see the news article if the OP had shot the guy.
I have to say from your account, you are very lucky that it was not more serious. If some shit head was kicking garbage cans in my neighborhood and then cussed at me when I told him to stop. I definitely would have come down to have a talk and I certainly wouldn't have been armed with just a bat, and if some punk tried to flank me with his hand on a gun we would have found out who puts in more quality time in at the range...
I would strongly suggest that you an your friends really think about the consequences of your actions. Kicking cans late at night is idiotic and immature behavior, then to stand there and cuss out the home owner who calls you out on it and even get ready to shoot the guy is completely stupid and potentially criminal.
You should have told your friend to apologize and quickly left before the homeowner came out. I know half a dozen guys in Denver if you had tried that shit on their front lawn it would have gone down very very differently. Count yourself lucky that you are not in hospital or jail this morning, and really think about what you are doing.
Cameron
It was a crushed soda can laying in the middle of the street. I don't consider kicking something like a can, rock, etc. in your way while walking "idiotic and immature behavior."
And if you approach myself or a friend in my presence, after cussing at us and calling us this and that, while openly armed, all for kicking a can in the street... you're gonna be in deep shit (we ain't the group of punks you think we are). Especially if you think "putting in more quality time at the range" is gonna help you at all, there's a difference between shooting a gun and fighting with a gun... although we're getting into another discussion here.
UberTong
07-19-2011, 14:37
It was a crushed soda can laying in the middle of the street. I don't consider kicking something like a can, rock, etc. in your way while walking "idiotic and immature behavior."
I think you handled it fine, the street is not his property, you weren't kicking the can in a punk ass nature, maybe the homeowner was just having a shitty day, or there have been suspicious activities in the hood. Either way, make sure you know who you're barking at and why (homeowner).
I was about to make my move... in motion going towards him... when he stopped his swing. As I said I was standing at his 2. Plan was when he swings, jump to my 11 or so so that I'm behind him while grabbing and pushing his swinging arm down and to the right, hook my left arm around him and get him in a sleeper hold and choke him out till he passes out. Then get in the car and get the hell outta dodge.
I know... a bat is an impact weapon, and impact weapons can definitely be lethal or cause TBI. Last night I felt that it could have very easily be handled hand to hand, but looking back on the situation (if the same thing ever happens again), I think I just might draw on him when he approaches and leave it at that.
The car was about twice as far from us as he was, locked, there were three of us that hand to get in through 2 doors, and starting the car takes time.
First thought being he's coming towards us with a shotgun, and seeing he isn't aiming it at us yet, I figured I'd be better off taking it head on and not turning my back on him or giving him time to act while I'm preoccupied. Not to mention, a vehicle is a bullet magnet.
It was a crushed soda can laying in the middle of the street. I don't consider kicking something like a can, rock, etc. in your way while walking "idiotic and immature behavior."
And if you approach myself or a friend in my presence, after cussing at us and calling us this and that, while openly armed, all for kicking a can in the street... you're gonna be in deep shit (we ain't the group of punks you think we are). Especially if you think "putting in more quality time at the range" is gonna help you at all, there's a difference between shooting a gun and fighting with a gun... although we're getting into another discussion here.
Just from your narrative I feel like no one can really fully grasp the situation until they are in it. I'm sure some would say "Oh you were wrong in even thinking of pulling you gun" or this and that. No, it's the situation you're in that dictates what happens. Like with me when pulling and deciding to use a weapon, I was trained NOT to hesitate, NOT to withdraw (US Army infantry 101- NEVER RETREAT) and NOT to cease until the threat has been eliminated. It's one thing to say what you would have/could have/should have done, but when the rubber meets the road and you first suspect it's a firearm being brought to bear against you and yours then you have to think of what your next action(s) will be. I would have done the same thing. If I kicked a can and a guy got in a hissy because of it, well shame on him he shouldn't be such a prick. Now if I instigated something, no I wouldn't have thought of using a gun, I'd de-escalate the situation verbally. But you did nothing wrong, and him even threatening with a bat would have been grounds for you to put his ass 6ft deep.
Could the situation have gone bad? Of course. I've had encounters with baseball bats and probably wouldn't have hesitated to press some iron to the guy's head and told him to drop the bat or there would be consequences. Fine line between a mock charge and a real charge, but do you really think you can afford to differentiate between the two?
Bailey Guns
07-19-2011, 14:57
Actually he did say it was dark, I didn't say how late, and in reality the point was not what time it was but just how dangerous to life and liberty the situation OP had put himself in.
Why stay and confront the homeowner at all?
Why not quickly take his friends safely away?
Then the fact that the guy "fake" swings a bat at a friends head!! What if one hadn't been a fake swing that his buddy didn't flinch at. A baseball bat to the head is potentially deadly. It is an insane situation to put yourself in, and it is obvious the OP actually put himself in the situation. I have to say, if someone "fake" swings a baseball bat at my friend's head I really would have thought about fake pulling my gun and fake shooting the guy. Faking a swing at someone's head with a baseball bat is, as I understand it, a justifiable reason for being shot.
I'm all for protecting yourself by whatever means necessary, and I've used firearms both defensively and offensively, but I have also made serious mistakes before, by not making avoiding stupid confrontations a priority.
I'm not going to leap in here and tell the OP he should have capped the guy and it was a righteous shoot! I was simply trying to play the devil's advocate and show that there is another way that the circumstances could have been seen. We don't know if the homeowner was sipping a coke and keeping a watch out for others that may have perpetrated property crimes in the area. There is a lot we don't know. What we do know, from the OP's descriptions, is that he certainly had the opportunity to get out of a potentially bad situation and in staying made it potentially even worse.
Cameron
ETA: I have certainly made some errors in judgement, that put me and those I care about in dangerous situations. I may have even caused trouble that I could have avoided. However, once the situation has become unavoidable and we are in a self defense situation it doesn't really matter how we ended up there it now only matters that we survive.
Cam
You're still raggin on the OP for putting himself in a bad situation. In the next breath you state you'd grab a gun and confront 2 grown men in the street for kicking a soda can.
WTF, dude? Does that not sound like putting yourself in a bad situation?
I'm not arguing whether what the OP did (actually it was his friend) was smart. Just that you're saying how stupid it was then saying you'd do the same thing.
Bailey, you just put an idea in my head... let's play devil's advocate!
You're sitting on your porch minding your own, some guy kicks a can in the street right in front of your house. WhAt Do YoU dO?
Bailey Guns
07-19-2011, 15:21
Bailey, you just put an idea in my head... let's play devil's advocate!
You're sitting on your porch minding your own, some guy kicks a can in the street right in front of your house. WhAt Do YoU dO?
Ummm...take another drink of my beer?
(Now, if I'd taken your question literally, my answer would've been: "Watch the paramedics scrape him off the highway." Cause I live on Hwy 285. If the guy had been in the middle of the street the last thing he'd need to worry about is me.)
Bailey, you just put an idea in my head... let's play devil's advocate!
You're sitting on your porch minding your own, some guy kicks a can in the street right in front of your house. WhAt Do YoU dO?
Light 'em up with my 37mm flare launcher...[ROFL1]
Seriously: Ignore 'em. There are far more pressing concerns in my world than someone making a little noise walking down the street.
Ummm...take another drink of my beer?
(Now, if I'd taken your question literally, my answer would've been: "Watch the paramedics scrape him off the highway." Cause I live on Hwy 285. If the guy had been in the middle of the street the last thing he'd need to worry about is me.)
[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]
Funny part is, I know exactly where you're talking about, and yes they would need shovels to scrape away the mess- people go so fast down that hill coming into Bailey.
That's exactly what I thought, ignore them, forget about it. Some people are just overly confrontational I guess.
tainted needle
[ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL2]
stevelkinevil
07-19-2011, 16:26
[ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL2]
[Coffee]hahaha, good stuff.
Maybe I'm just lost and a bit confused by your description of what happened... but there are issues with it.. And here are my issues and perhaps you can clarify some things for me.
gets up and starts walking towards us.
He is attempting to physically intimidate you. Assuming he's been drinking as you stated... you do not remove yourself from the situation.. Is it because there are two of you? Or because you want to attempt to impress a chick..
Stops at the end of his porch, turns around and opens his door, reaches inside for something leaning against the wall by the door. My first thought is he's getting a shotgun or other long arm, and my hand is on my gun. Its dark, and even though his dim porch light is on he's far enough away that its tough to make out details (we're in the middle of the street, he's across his lawn on the porch). Then he turns around and starts towards us with a long dark object in his hand, and I get the gun in my hand but keep it concealed in the holster... my thinking being that I don't want him to see me drawing on him and shoot at us, I'll wait till I get a chance to get a clean shot off before he can react. He gets about 10 ft away
I see blah blah blah blah.. You let him get within 10' of you.. well within the 'lethal threat' range of 21'.. You had the weapon in your hand? but in the holster? but you didn't want him to see you draw? I'm confused...
and I can see that its a baseball bat, and decide its best to take care of this without weapons. He walks up to within striking distance of our buddy directly in front of him, I move to his 2 o'clock so I can get behind and choke him out when he swings and is off balance, and our female friend is in the middle of me and our buddy and a little ways back.
You put your friend, your chick friend and yourself in danger because you think you're bruce fuckin leroy segal norris.. You are not attempting to protect your friend.. you are attempting to assist him should he get into shit w/ the man you let get far too close with a weapon in his hand..
He and my buddy are yelling at each other and the guy raises the bat and fake swings at him. Buddy doesn't flinch which seems to piss him off, and I remember thinking "wait till he strikes, wait till he strikes, don't move until he hits him." Then he winds up and fake swings again, getting real close to my buddy's head.
Really? was this necessary? Again.. you must not like your friend or at his expense you are attempting to impress a chick.. How much alcohol was consumed by your party that night?
I told him that if he makes contact with that bat, it'd be the dumbest thing he's ever done.
Not if he were proned out and the cops were already on their way which is what should have happened..
Until now I'd been letting him focus on my buddy so I can make my move and surprise him
Again.. Bruce Leroy.. I've trained in martial arts a very good portion of my life.. I'm still currently training.. and you don't attack people by surprise.. you aren't a fucking Ninja.. You don't even put yourself in a situation that can be avoided.. because in training you learn to never underestimate your opponent.. Suppose the guy was the batting coach for the Rockies.. pretty sure he could use a bat better than you could ninja him...
but when I said that he looked over at me and stared at me for a second, then backed away and started walking back to his property still talking sh*t. Buddy yelled a couple things back at him (not the brightest guy) but he didn't turn around. We got in the car and drove off pretty quick.
After driving for a bit, the female friend said that she was more scared by the look I had on my face than by the asshat with the bat. Said that it was a mix of "I'm going to kill you" and completely emotionless and cold.
Couple things are sticking in my head about this.
1. I was exactly as I told myself I'd be. I didn't hesitate in my decision to use lethal force when I thought he had a gun,
Yes you did. You drew but had it holstered but somehow let him get well within effective range of a shotgun... ??? That's hesitation.. I didn't even get a significant adrenaline rush like I've had in fist fights.
The discrepancies in your story tell me otherwise.. Adrenaline is a strange and wonderful thing..
I was 100% ready to pull the trigger, and I was completely cool about it.
Again I call BS. See Above
Part of me is scared by how cold I was about it, but another part is thankful that I know I can keep my cool should something happen in the future.
Good to be calm, great to be collected.. being cold is a psychological response.. Basic human instinct to survive..
2. My decision not to draw on him still after it was apparent he had a bat not a gun was based mainly on how much of a pain it would be to put up with all the court crap should things go south.
Because jumping him from behind after you allowed him to get that close and allowed the situation to escalate wouldn't be difficult? Think again man.. Think again.. Your assumption he had been drinking, your allowing him to get close.. you'd be picked apart by the cops and the prosecution..
Not so much that I was afraid of it (see my sig), just that it could have been handled so easily hand to hand that it wasn't worth the trouble. Had my girlfriend been with me, I think I probably would have drawn on him... I'm not willing to draw a dangerous situation out longer than it needs to be by fighting someone when she's around, I'd rather eliminate the threat as quickly and effectively as possible.
So what makes it any different when your friend is around and some random strange? But you did draw on him.. and you didn't hesitate in your decision to use lethal force.. but you did let a dangerous situation draw out entirely longer than needed..
But it seems as if you see everything you did wrong.. I just don't know WHY..
Glock Shooter
07-19-2011, 17:45
I was a single father raising my son on my own for 10 years until I met my wife 4 years ago. When it was just my son and I while living in Boulder, yeah Boulder, my dog woke me up barking a storm at the window. We lived in a split-level home (really bad design as far as safety is concerned) my bedroom window is at ground level, it's summer, and it's wide open all but a bug screen. I sit up and hush my dog for a moment and listen. She, R.I.P, was a well trained pit bull-lab mix and immediately obeyed my command. I could hear the chain fence that separates my house from my neighbor jingling like somethings on it or climbing over it. It's very early in the morning and the sun has not come up yet but I can make out a silhouette of a man just coming over my side of the fence into my back yard. I unlock my glock and use the cement side of my house as cover and yell to him to stop. I'm in no immediate danger so I'm pointed in a safe direction. My son is sound asleep in bedroom behind me so I'm between danger and my son. I let him know he is not welcome and that he should turn and leave. He replies in a very drunken voice that this is his house and that he's coming in. At that moment I dial 911. I tell the operator what's happening, give a general description of him, she asks me if he has a weapon. I must have been repeating her questions out loud because Mr. Badguy says "Well maybe I have a gun!" Well that's when I put more distance between us and took a defensive position at the doorway of my bedroom where I could cover the window. The 911 operator heard him and I could hear her typing frantically all the while telling me officers were on the way. I then went to the hall closet and unlocked my Winchester Defender 12ga. It was loaded with 00 Federal buck shot. No round in the chamber 7 in the tube. It seemed like minutes went by as Mr. Badguy worked himself up into a lather of anger. I kept yelling at him to leave that the police were on the way. By now I can see that he's is within kicking distance of my window. My dog, man she was smart, has now positioned herself behind me in my son's doorway. I can hear him yell that he's coming in, I drop the cell phone, I can see his leg go back like he's about to kick in my window. I've already come to terms with the fact that I may have to shoot this guy but I still can't be sure if he has a weapon or not but I am prepared to defend my son. I say to myself that if he comes into my home I will shoot. I'm about to chamber a round and at that very moment I heard POLICE LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS.....LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS NOW!!! I listen as he gets combative with the officers but since there were 3 of them they had him on the ground in cuffs in a matter of seconds. I lock everything up, my son is still sound asleep, if you can believe it, sound asleep I tell you. I wait for one of the officers to come knock. We speak for a few minutes, I never bring up the fact that I was more than prepared to defend my home, and they leave. I'll be happy if I never go through anything similar ever again.
Some great stories in here. Can we merge the threads?
[Coffee] Some of these stories are fun and interesting. I have never shot at anyone with anything other than sim rounds or bean bags... Is that ok?
blacklabel
07-19-2011, 21:41
I was a single father raising my son on my own for 10 years...
That's an awesome story and sounds just about text book. Similar scenarios run through my head all the time and I hope that I'm able to handle it as well as you did if I'm ever presented with one.
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 22:53
Maybe I'm just lost and a bit confused by your description of what happened... but there are issues with it.. And here are my issues and perhaps you can clarify some things for me.
He is attempting to physically intimidate you. Assuming he's been drinking as you stated... you do not remove yourself from the situation.. Is it because there are two of you? Or because you want to attempt to impress a chick..
This girl is a good friend and has been for years, more like a sister to me. I don't need/want/have any reason to want to impress her. In my last post I explained why I thought staying put would have been a better option than trying to get away. Also I want to clarify... I heard and saw him put a can down when he got up. I don't know what was in it, I'm merely assuming from his actions that it was alcohol. He could have been completely sober, but I doubt it.
I see blah blah blah blah.. You let him get within 10' of you.. well within the 'lethal threat' range of 21'.. You had the weapon in your hand? but in the holster? but you didn't want him to see you draw? I'm confused...
Basically I was holding my gun, but kept it hidden. In training I practice my draw and have it down as a 2nd nature, and I figured I could have drawn and fired faster than he can bring his bat-length gun up to aim towards us. Still, I didn't want him to see me draw because at that point I still thought he had a firearm and I thought if he saw me draw he would fire (or try to). I know I just said I could likely have rounds on him before he could aim, but since the two people I was with were also in the line of fire I didn't want to risk it if I didn't have to. Had he pointed the bat at us then, you might be reading about this in the news. But since he wasn't, I saw no reason to act just yet.
He was walking towards us but wasn't aiming anything at us (think, holding a bat-length shotgun by the stock, one handed, with the muzzle at the ground).
You put your friend, your chick friend and yourself in danger because you think you're bruce fuckin leroy segal norris.. You are not attempting to protect your friend.. you are attempting to assist him should he get into shit w/ the man you let get far too close with a weapon in his hand..
Exactly... I was there to assist him, not protect him (after we saw it was a bat and not a gun). While he didn't do anything to start the confrontation, he WAS continuing it and aggravating it, and that's his own damn fault.
I don't see how I put anybody in danger, other than the asshat with the bat.
Really? was this necessary? Again.. you must not like your friend or at his expense you are attempting to impress a chick.. How much alcohol was consumed by your party that night?
I said he was a mutual friend... really, he's her friend that I've hung out with a couple times. While I don't particularly like him, that has no bearing on this. Again, not trying to impress her. No alcohol was consumed by my party, we were at a smoke shop (tobacco, NOT pot or anything else... I don't touch that shit).
Not if he were proned out and the cops were already on their way which is what should have happened..
Not interested in getting the law involved unless absolutely necessary. If I had drawn and he gave up, I'd have covered him while my friends got to the car and then hopped in when they drove by and we'd have left. Maybe this is "wrong" but honestly, I don't care. I appreciate all of the LEOs that look out for us, but if nobody is dead or in the hospital (or even injured in this case), calling them would just be an unnecessary headache.
Again.. Bruce Leroy.. I've trained in martial arts a very good portion of my life.. I'm still currently training.. and you don't attack people by surprise.. you aren't a fucking Ninja.. You don't even put yourself in a situation that can be avoided.. because in training you learn to never underestimate your opponent.. Suppose the guy was the batting coach for the Rockies.. pretty sure he could use a bat better than you could ninja him...
Why don't you attack people by surprise? If he's focused on my buddy and ignoring me, I will take advantage of that. Sure, he could have been a quadruple black belt ninja samurai, but I dot think so. People with lots of training in combatives (martial arts, gunfighting, etc.) generally handle themselves differently, and from his appearance/actions I don't think he's the type. What I saw was a white trash type with messy hair in a dirty wifebeater and shorts with no shoes on... I didn't get the feeling that he was someone that could rip my heart out of my chest without me realizing it.
Yes you did. You drew but had it holstered but somehow let him get well within effective range of a shotgun... ??? That's hesitation.
I thought he had a gun, I was prepared to take his life to protect ours, and I positioned myself to do so. I was waiting for him to give me a solid reason to... that's thinking, not hesitation.
The discrepancies in your story tell me otherwise.. Adrenaline is a strange and wonderful thing..
How so?
Because jumping him from behind after you allowed him to get that close and allowed the situation to escalate wouldn't be difficult? Think again man.. Think again.. Your assumption he had been drinking, your allowing him to get close.. you'd be picked apart by the cops and the prosecution..
I handled the situation in a way that I thought was safest for my party, and I've already explained my reasoning for my actions.
So what makes it any different when your friend is around and some random strange? But you did draw on him.. and you didn't hesitate in your decision to use lethal force.. but you did let a dangerous situation draw out entirely longer than needed..
Uh.... what?
But it seems as if you see everything you did wrong.. I just don't know WHY..
Again... what?
Mcantar, does your friend know that you carry?
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 23:00
Mcantar, does your friend know that you carry?
He didn't until last night.
Ok. I was just curious to see if he was possibly motivated by the knowledge that his friend had a weapon...
What did the douche bag can kicker say in the car afterward?
What did the douche bag can kicker say in the car afterward?
My next point. Sounds like you might wanna avoid his company from now on...
mcantar18c
07-19-2011, 23:07
Ok. I was just curious to see if he was possibly motivated by the knowledge that his friend had a weapon...
Doubt it. If anything, he was more reckless because he didn't know.
Really he's just a dumbass.
What did the douche bag can kicker say in the car afterward?
He was loud and annoying about how he could have taken the guy and was just waiting for him to do something and blah blah blah. I was sitting in the back trying to keep my mouth shut.
My next point. Sounds like you might wanna avoid his company from now on...
I haven't seen him in probably a couple years, and that was also because we were with this female friend. I have no interest in hanging out with him.
Tinelement
07-19-2011, 23:41
[QUOTE]Then he winds up and fake swings again, getting real close to my buddy's head./QUOTE
Enough for me! Poor bitch woulda been on the ground. "to protect the life of yourself and the others around you!" Maybe thats why things sucks, people are to scared of the government and consequences of what happens when you draw. Pretty sure you have the right to protect a 3rd party, baseball bat to the head, justifies protection. If you wait till the first swing, your friend may be dead! And guess what, in 10 yrs the jackwagon who swung will be out on parole on good behavior and swing again. Just saying
Byte Stryke
07-20-2011, 06:57
Then he winds up and fake swings again, getting real close to my buddy's head.
Enough for me! Poor bitch woulda been on the ground. "to protect the life of yourself and the others around you!" Maybe thats why things sucks, people are to scared of the government and consequences of what happens when you draw. Pretty sure you have the right to protect a 3rd party, baseball bat to the head, justifies protection. If you wait till the first swing, your friend may be dead! And guess what, in 10 yrs the jackwagon who swung will be out on parole on good behavior and swing again. Just saying
I think they should enact some sort of baseball bat legislation requiring background checks and registration to help prevent just this sort of situation.
this didn't happen around Capital Hill did it?
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18508701
this didn't happen around Capital Hill did it?
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18508701
That is why we must always be on guard. Savages running amok in this city. They wouldn't get the swing in with me... one of the few cases I'm glad I "suffer" from PTSD and "hyper vigilance."
Delfuego
07-20-2011, 10:42
Does your buddy know you carry? (sorry just read page 8!) It may be the case that some people (instigators) tend to be bold when they know (or think they are protected). I have had instigator friends get me into the worst situations and trouble in my life.
Conversely i have been on 1 or 2 occasions and extra special asshole when i knew I had backup, or happen to be out drinking with cops (who by the way are good at drinking peer pressure).
Glad it did not escalate.[Beer]
KevDen2005
07-25-2011, 09:16
I know I am late, but baseball bat, especially at close range in the threatening manner it was presented=deadly force.
Totality of the circumstances. One good swing to the head and you're dead.
Be judged by 12 not carried by 6.
Glad it worked out.
Be judged by 12 not carried by 6.
This.
Best defense, and we said this all the time in Afghanistan when there was an ROE issue that came up (concerning the legality of use of deadly force- hearts and minds BS) "You get a split second to make a decision, they get months to pick it apart."
KevDen2005
07-25-2011, 09:33
This.
Best defense, and we said this all the time in Afghanistan when there was an ROE issue that came up (concerning the legality of use of deadly force- hearts and minds BS) "You get a split second to make a decision, they get months to pick it apart."
No decision, in my opinion is going to be a hundred percent right when thoughts and scenarios are going that fast...just make the best one you can with your training...
You did your best to do the right thing and stay out of harms way, sometimes you have to choose to defend yourself.
No decision, in my opinion is going to be a hundred percent right when thoughts and scenarios are going that fast...just make the best one you can with your training...
You did your best to do the right thing and stay out of harms way, sometimes you have to choose to defend yourself.
Of course you know, dead men tell no tales, so when defending yourself make sure the other guys isn't around to tell a different story (or one to a lawyer).
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