A Question for LEOs about fingerprints [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

DD977GM2

07-20-2011, 05:01

So in the oilfiled I work will all sorts of people. One guy on my rig was a gangbanger and 10 years in penetentiary for murder a few others are felons of some sort or the other and then there are law abiding guys. Well one guy said if you spray WD-40 on stuff cops cant lift finger prints...just curous if this is true? Id think it would preserve prints to some extent.

GM2

EDIT: First off the guy that actually said the comment is a law abiding citizen and an avid shooter. Im surpised he doesnt know about this site or others.

The guy that did 10 years, IDK the whole story nor do I care. I do notice he is a hard worker and genuinely wants to make a better life for himself, but like the statistic says....80% go back. As for his lawyer, IDK the story and dont much care to.

I also think it is hilarious all the urban legends that are out there to thwart the cops or forensics and I even get all the mumbo jumbo about firearms and people seem to come to me about this or that on gun legends. I always seem to get the one that in vietnam the VC used our ammo through their AKs and to this day you can still use the same ammo for ARs in AKs. Fucking blows my mind on that one and people actually believe it. I also get the same thing....45 if it hits you anywhere your dead and blows you back on your ass. Do people not know physics? Folks in the oilfield are hilarious and just make me stop and wonder how much the public truely feels urban legends are reality.

Colorado Osprey

07-20-2011, 06:29

LOL! Lots of rumors on the perfect crime circulate in prison/jail on how to get away evidence free.

Oil is what a fingerprint actually are.
There are many ways of lifting prints. Spraying something with oil after you touched it can eliminate some prints. WD-40 will actually make them permanent. WD-40 is mostly varnish.
Now in a liquid state when spaying, it can wash away the print, same as most soaps.

This also depends on the surface the print was left.

Wiping down what you touch can smudge prints to be un-readable.

Prints are interesting. On a piece of paper prints can be lifted a couple of hundred years later.

Prints are also a minor way to collect evidence.

Trace is left by everyone all the time where they have been. An example is dead skin cells. They contain DNA, better than a finger print. This is the same way a blood hound tracks someone or something. A lot of people watch TV shows like CSI and the like. Most departments don't have the resources and equipment that you see on TV. They are usually available only at a state level for special cases or a long wait for evidence tests.

If it were me, I wouldn't say a word to these ex-felons and just let them think they know best. That way if they do another crime, spaying everything down in wd-40 will make their case that much easier to prosecute. Statistics show that over 80% of felons will return to crime and return to jail.

OneGuy67

07-20-2011, 09:52

I've not heard of using WD-40, nor have I experienced that at a crime scene.

Thanks to shows like CSI, the general population has a false sense of what forensics can do, what their local police department can do and more importantly, the bad guys try to do things to thwart the efforts of law enforcement based on these assumptions.

As a patrol officer, I used to get a kick out of the drunks having pennies in their mouths when asked to provide a sample of breath. The urban legend was, the copper would lower the alcohol level reading. The more funny thing was, they wouldn't use copper pennies, but ones minted after 1984, which are zinc. Got to laugh at them twice.

Graves

07-20-2011, 09:55

Ever wonder... if he was so damn slick; how'd he wind up serving 10 years?

TS12000

07-20-2011, 11:20

These guys know there's this invention called gloves right? The criminal mindstate never ceases to amaze me. "Hey if you walk around with a can of wd40 da pigs won't be able to get your prints" [ROFL2][ROFL3]

BPTactical

07-20-2011, 11:25

Ever wonder... if he was so damn slick; how'd he wind up serving 10 years?

The pitch..............A hit...............going, going.........gone!
Homerun by Graves!

Really though, his lawyer screwed him.....................

Mtn.man

07-20-2011, 11:34

Tell him to soak his finger in acid,,, that'll do the trick.

BushMasterBoy

07-20-2011, 11:38

I think its easier to get away with a crime if you place both palms face down on a red hot stove top....tell him that!

leatherneck448

07-20-2011, 11:54

I think its easier to get away with a crime if you place both palms face down on a red hot stove top....tell him that!

I burned my index finger in caramelized sugar once, and the first pad of my finger was completely smooth for a few weeks. No print. In theory, it might work, but as other people have said, most people (including me) have no clue about forensics, so I wouldnt really know.

Ronin13

07-20-2011, 12:22

One would think, and correct me if this sounds unreasonable, that the best way not to get caught is to not commit a crime in the first place.
I'm just saying, ya know, since I have no reason to worry about leaving fingerprints- besides, Uncle Sam made sure my prints are on file somewhere.

Mtn.man

07-20-2011, 12:24

Ha we will/are all criminals to be in the eye of the government.
It is their job to make sure of that.

Ronin13

07-20-2011, 12:30

Ha we will/are all criminals to be in the eye of the government.
It is their job to make sure of that.

There goes innocent until proven guilty- which they sure do a great job of treating you like that! /sarcasm
If I'm innocent until proven guilty then why put me in jail with guilty people? Why not make it a summons, you must show up to court on x date or we'll put a FTA warrant out on you.

SA Friday

07-20-2011, 12:55

There goes innocent until proven guilty- which they sure do a great job of treating you like that! /sarcasm
If I'm innocent until proven guilty then why put me in jail with guilty people? Why not make it a summons, you must show up to court on x date or we'll put a FTA warrant out on you.

In most cases they do. Even bonding out, most required are just signature bonds. Too much law and order...

Also, your fingerprints for entering the military are for remains identification only. They cannot be used for law enforcement purposes, period. I know, I've tried to get them before. The JA and magistrate both shot me down.

TFOGGER

07-20-2011, 13:07

I dunno if it's true, but one of the instructors at my CCW class (the fingerprint card guy for my Utah permit) said the a lot of guys doing masonry/concrete/stone work get their cards kicked back because the prints are essentially abraded off of their fingertips. So, tell your felon coworkers to get a real job doing masonry, work real hard for 20 or 30 years, and then they can be sorta sure that they won't leave any fingerprints at the crime scene... [LOL][ROFL1]

jake

07-20-2011, 13:13

Also, your fingerprints for entering the military are for remains identification only. They cannot be used for law enforcement purposes, period. I know, I've tried to get them before. The JA and magistrate both shot me down.
What about fingerprints taken during the immigration process? Do you know anything about those?

Ronin13

07-20-2011, 13:21

In most cases they do. Even bonding out, most required are just signature bonds. Too much law and order...

Also, your fingerprints for entering the military are for remains identification only. They cannot be used for law enforcement purposes, period. I know, I've tried to get them before. The JA and magistrate both shot me down.

Not for a TS-SCI Security Clearance... which is the reason I was printed initially, that goes to an FBI database and is stored on file with the DoD for 20 years. How I know? I worked in Security Clearances while in (a job that is, for the most part, starting to get out sourced to DA Civilians).

OneGuy67

07-20-2011, 15:18

Not for a TS-SCI Security Clearance... which is the reason I was printed initially, that goes to an FBI database and is stored on file with the DoD for 20 years. How I know? I worked in Security Clearances while in (a job that is, for the most part, starting to get out sourced to DA Civilians).

For any clearance, the fingerprints are sent to the FBI for verification (checked against database for knowns) and then stored with the DoD. SAFriday is right; they are too difficult to obtain for LE purposes and speaking from experience, it is easier to obtain DMV fingerprints for analysis.

OneGuy67

07-20-2011, 15:21

What about fingerprints taken during the immigration process? Do you know anything about those?

I do not know if they are just kept by ICE after verification with the FBI or stored as is in the FBI database. That is a good question I will have to ask the next time I meet with the FBI SAC I occasionally work with.

SA Friday

07-20-2011, 16:05

For any clearance, the fingerprints are sent to the FBI for verification (checked against database for knowns) and then stored with the DoD. SAFriday is right; they are too difficult to obtain for LE purposes and speaking from experience, it is easier to obtain DMV fingerprints for analysis.

I think getting ahold of fingerprints for a CCW or other state taken FPs would be the easiest. I never tried for a set of those though. Getting a set of "blue card" finger prints federally taken for any purpose takes massive time and energy. Not saying you can't get them, but you better have an OJ Simpson case. Any prints taken by the military and not for criminal purposes are protected from being used from anything even remotely smelling like a fishing trip. The military does do some thing right, and some of their legal protections are way above and beyond civilian protections.

SA Friday

07-20-2011, 16:10

What about fingerprints taken during the immigration process? Do you know anything about those?

I suspect these prints would have a higher standard of protection from misuse just as any "blue card" fingerprints. The blue card prints are simply for verification of identity and/or confirming no criminal record. You can change y name and SSN, but even cutting off your fingerprints won't work. Thats why they do fingerprints for the sensitive jobs, security clearances, CCWs, etc. it's not to catalog you in AFIS.

GunsRBadMMMMKay

07-20-2011, 17:36

Trace is left by everyone all the time where they have been. An example is dead skin cells. They contain DNA, better than a finger print.

I LOL'd at this...not that it's not true, just that there being enough skin cells on something like a gun to actually use for a dna test seems pretty far fetched. Then being able to prove where it came from if it was that small.......

I remember for a while there was a big press for DNA collection (to the point that they were talking about swabbing traffic stops or some bs). I wondered if they aren't recording the blood they take for DOT and other dept physicals...talk about sneaky, anyone know if they do this?

OneGuy67

07-20-2011, 17:45

I verified my information with someone very much "in the know" on the fingerprint cards and CCW, school applicants, daycare workers, etc., what SA Friday calls "blue card fingerprints".

Apparently, they are all scanned and retained in AFIS, the FBI database. If one of these people were to be arrested and fingerprinted criminally, a flag is produced the agency who submitted the fingerprint cards would be notified. So, say Mr. School Teacher passed a background check and his fingerprints were submitted as a part of said background check, and Mr. School Teacher gets caught diddling a kid in another jurisdiction or state, once his prints are forwarded to the FBI and a match is made, the school district or whomever did the background check is notified. If he had a CCW, the Sheriff's Office would also be notified.

I hope that clarifies the subject some.

OneGuy67

07-20-2011, 17:57

I LOL'd at this...not that it's not true, just that there being enough skin cells on something like a gun to actually use for a dna test seems pretty far fetched. Then being able to prove where it came from if it was that small.......

I remember for a while there was a big press for DNA collection (to the point that they were talking about swabbing traffic stops or some bs). I wondered if they aren't recording the blood they take for DOT and other dept physicals...talk about sneaky, anyone know if they do this?

Just touching a firearm and having that area swabbed will most likely produce viable DNA. All they need is a couple of cells now. Very cool as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, just having the DNA being present doesn't necessarily mean anything. It doesn't date/time stamp the contact when the transfer occured. Additional investigation is needed to assist in the use of the DNA for prosecution.

They passed 'Katie's Law' in 2010 in which all individuals arrested for felony crimes are swabbed for DNA at the time of arrest. This has resulted in 9 sex assault cases, 3 criminal mischief cases and 28 property crime cases including arson, burglary, robbery and theft that were identified in the first four months of its start. This may be what you were referring to?

Bailey Guns

07-20-2011, 19:19

I worked in Booking in the JeffCo jail for a short time before I went to the Patrol Division. Of course, we fingerprinted all intakes.

Occasionally, when the right guy came along - usually an amiable drunk - we'd convince him we needed a "nose print" in addition to fingerprints.

Invariably they'd ask why. Our explanation was we had a lot of unsolved burglary cases and the nose prints were needed to build a database in order to identify burglars in the community. "Think about it," we'd tell the guy. "What happens when you put your face up against a window to look inside a building?" It's like a light would come on. "Yeah...you leave a nose print on the window."

It was pretty hilarious to watch a drunk take the ink roller and try to roll it across his nose without getting ink all over his face. It was even funnier to watch them try to "roll" their noses across the back of a fingerprint card.

Working in the jail sucked but there were some special moments.

Graves

07-20-2011, 19:39

[Lol]

^Yep, safari sucks.

Byte Stryke

07-20-2011, 19:42

GunsRBadMMMMKay

07-20-2011, 23:19

Just touching a firearm and having that area swabbed will most likely produce viable DNA. All they need is a couple of cells now. Very cool as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, just having the DNA being present doesn't necessarily mean anything. It doesn't date/time stamp the contact when the transfer occured. Additional investigation is needed to assist in the use of the DNA for prosecution.

They passed 'Katie's Law' in 2010 in which all individuals arrested for felony crimes are swabbed for DNA at the time of arrest. This has resulted in 9 sex assault cases, 3 criminal mischief cases and 28 property crime cases including arson, burglary, robbery and theft that were identified in the first four months of its start. This may be what you were referring to?

Not the "Katie's Law" though maybe that is when it came about. I remember even seeing talk on local news about proposed swabbing at traffic stops/etc to fill the database. Completely unconstitutional so likely it was shot down. I was more proposing a conspiracy theory we thought of the other day....that every cop, fireman, truck driver, pilot, etc. that was submitted to bi-annual or annual bloodwork already had their dna on file.

Hell, it could go as far as anyone who has had any bloodwork done, including anyone who has had a kid in the last couple decades since they do bloodwork on the mother to test for drugs or whatnot - without warrant might I add.

And why would you use WD40? Why not some boric acid, brake clean, bleach, or ammonia..... or just completely destroy any evidence? Or like previously pointed out....don't be a dumbass? If you have the foresight to bring a can of WD-40, you apparently spent enough time thinking about it to realize it was a bad idea in the first place[Beer]

Byte Stryke

07-21-2011, 13:18

And why would you use WD40? Why not some boric acid, brake clean, bleach, or ammonia..... or just completely destroy any evidence? Or like previously pointed out....don't be a dumbass? If you have the foresight to bring a can of WD-40, you apparently spent enough time thinking about it to realize it was a bad idea in the first place[Beer]

this is what I was thinking...

"hmm need to remove oily fingerprints... BRAKE CLEAN!"

But yeah, I Agree, if you put that much forethought into it you should realize its not a good idea to begin with.