View Full Version : Funny email from a crazy liberal
ZombieKiller25
07-24-2011, 13:53
So on a dating site....sad I know and this one girl emails me. We start talking and I noticed that she's from Manitou. Automatically the sirens go off and I ask her what made her want to live there and I hope shes not a crazy anti-gun liberal. Well the response was just so damn funny I had to post it!
***Well let me put it to you this way, I have no problem with guns at a shooting range or aimed at a tin can or other inanimate object serving as a target, and I can recognize why a farmer or rancher might need to have a shotgun around, but I see absolutely no reason for guns to be in the hands of ordinary citizens. I think Canada's take on gun control makes a hell of a lot more sense than ours and has proven to be MUCH safer for the population.
I voted for Obama and would do it again.
I despise George W. and think he is a complete imbecile.
I think that the government has no place taking away a woman's right to choose or denying any two adults the right to be married regardless of the sex of their partner.
I absolutely believe global warming is real and frankly I think that people who don't are simply refusing to see what's right in front of them.
I think it is pathetic that we are the only developed nation which does not provide health care for its citizens and yet meanwhile we manage to spend more than any other country for sub-standard care.
I hate the electoral college.
I think we spend too much money on defense and not enough on education.
I will always support the men and women who serve in our armed forces but that doesn't mean I have to agree with every decision made by our government on where, when and why to send them, and this does not make me any less of an American.
so you tell me, am I too much of a "crazy liberal" for you?***
Needless to say, the emails stopped after that!
Dirt Diver
07-24-2011, 14:00
Please tell me you at least replied to this e-mail with a simple, "Yes."
That would be awesome! [ROFL1]
I agree with her on 2.5 of her points
1. I think that the government has no place taking away a woman's right to choose or denying any two adults the right to be married regardless of the sex of their partner.
2. I will always support the men and women who serve in our armed forces but that doesn't mean I have to agree with every decision made by our government on where, when and why
2.5 I despise Obama and think he is a complete imbecile.
can I have her number?
It might be fun to pose as a card carrying commy democrat and just see how much grief and fun you could have with her. [ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]
Scanker19
07-24-2011, 14:05
Is she hot?
ZombieKiller25
07-24-2011, 14:17
Is she hot?
Not hot enough to put up with that BS
ZombieKiller25
07-24-2011, 14:17
Please tell me you at least replied to this e-mail with a simple, "Yes."
That would be awesome! [ROFL1]
LOL...I replied with "Yes, thats a little over the top. Telling from your answers, I'm pretty sure that we'd kill each other on the first date."
Doesn't seem that crazy to me.
bellavite1
07-24-2011, 14:35
No girl is hot enough to put up with this.
Remembver, for every gorgeous chick out there there is a guy who's tired of f*****g her!
BPTactical
07-24-2011, 14:49
No girl is hot enough to put up with this.
Remembver, for every gorgeous chick out there there is a guy who's tired of f*****g her!
Sage words of wisedom from our resident refugee from one of the original "Romantic Countries"[LOL]
Priceless
I think it is pathetic that we are the only developed nation which does not provide health care for its citizens and yet meanwhile we manage to spend more than any other country for sub-standard care.
I wonder what she'd think of China's health care program. Or India's.
So what specifically do you disagree with that she wrote?
Germany's healthcare system works just fine and our system is fucked.
There is only one way that crazy can be trumped...
I'll let our friend Barney Stinson explain it to you.
5zADosF3XoQ
So what specifically do you disagree with that she wrote?
Germany's healthcare system works just fine and our system is fucked.
They also have 81.8 million people as opposed to our 308.8 million.
They also have 81.8 million people as opposed to our 308.8 million.
So what? We have just as many tax payers to support our nation. Numbers of population mean nothing. Its like saying the US could never have the best military because our nation is too big.
Zundfolge
07-24-2011, 15:34
Liberal chicks have their uses. ;)
*Zundy wistfully thinks back the debauchery of his early 20s*
Just don't marry 'em, breed with 'em or loan 'em money and you're fine.
I wonder what she'd think of China's health care program. Or India's.
The last thing I would ever do or want to do is compare the US to China or any other third world nation. I have higher standards for us.
[Pop]
I'm very interested to see the reasoning behind why Germany has better healthcare than the United States.
Byte Stryke
07-24-2011, 16:26
[Pop]
I'm very interested to see the reasoning behind why Germany has better healthcare than the United States.
you can ask any socialist for a quick and easy explanation.
(basis for statement: grew up there(13 years), lived there while military(4 years), married German woman.)
[Pop]
I'm very interested to see the reasoning behind why Germany has better healthcare than the United States.
It covers 100% of Germany's citizens costs half as much as our system. It has just as good and sometimes results that surpass ours. You can choose any Dr you want. You can chose to use homeopathy methods of medicine if you want. German apothecaries deal in both regular western medicine and natural methods too. Which to me it is best to use all methods rather than just one. There is no "for profit" motive. The only motive is proper healthcare. The whole system is nonprofit based. You have options who you want for your insurance carrier and all companies who want to legally do business in Germany are required to pay into the system. This makes it so everyone pays, not just the wealthy or those lucky enough to still have a job that gives you insurance. This also prevents a system where those people pick up the tab for everyone else.
Our system is beyond broke. May all the insurance companies burn to the ground.
SA Friday
07-24-2011, 16:44
There is only one way that crazy can be trumped...
I'll let our friend Barney Stinson explain it to you.
5zADosF3XoQ
[ROFL1]. Healthcare schmealthcare. This is the nugget of wisdom in this thread.
Hot vs Crazy adequately summarized by y=x. genius.
They all got snakes in their head.
Sometimes the snakes are poisonous.
At least Medusa wears hers on the outside so you know what you are getting.
At least she is strong on her viewpoints. But my response toher would have been that if she likes canadas system so well on healthcare and gun control and marriage and abortion rights then she needs to get the hell out pf my country. Just like the libfucks from cali. Don't come here and try to change things to the fucked up system you came from.
Just like the libfucks from cali. Don't come here and try to change things to the fucked up system you came from.
So if you moved to California you vote straight Democrat for your entire time living there right?
At least she is strong on her viewpoints. But my response toher would have been that if she likes canadas system so well on healthcare and gun control and marriage and abortion rights then she needs to get the hell out pf my country. Just like the libfucks from cali. Don't come here and try to change things to the fucked up system you came from.
Why do you guys who are against universal healthcare automatically assume all systems are like Canada or England? We are the only industrialized nation without universal healthcare. There are countless other systems out there to look at too. We have the benefit of being able to learn from all the systems as to what works and what does not. Obamas remedy was horrible in my opinion. He did not change any of the root rot. He only made it worse by forcing Americans to have to buy into the current mess.
Equal rights for gays and abortion rights.... well the real conservative (not religious right position) is to let the individual decide. I agree with people like Barry Goldwater on these issues.
It covers 100% of Germany's citizens costs half as much as our system. It has just as good and sometimes results that surpass ours. You can choose any Dr you want. You can chose to use homeopathy methods of medicine if you want. German apothecaries deal in both regular western medicine and natural methods too. Which to me it is best to use all methods rather than just one. There is no "for profit" motive. The only motive is proper healthcare. The whole system is nonprofit based. You have options who you want for your insurance carrier and all companies who want to legally do business in Germany are required to pay into the system. This makes it so everyone pays, not just the wealthy or those lucky enough to still have a job that gives you insurance. This also prevents a system where those people pick up the tab for everyone else.
Our system is beyond broke. May all the insurance companies burn to the ground.
I would argue that the major troublemaker in the U.S. healthcare system is the government of the United States.
Byte - care to comment since you have first hand experience?
I lived in Germany for over 5 years and grew up close enough to stumble home drunk from Canada. I have seen other systems too.
The major trouble maker in the US healthcare mess is for profit insurance companies. No company should be in the business of making more profits by killing more Americans. Its just downright wrong. No (civilized) country in the world lets their medical insurance operate in a for profit model. It is also my opinion that many of them have gotten so big that they are defacto monopolies. Esp in some states. That is not the free market, that is markets that are distorted by economies of size rather than free competition. Our whole system is broken. I know, I worked in it for years. We had two people in our small office whose entire job was nothing more than arguing against the medical insurance companies to get people like you even the most basic care.
Why do you guys who are against universal healthcare automatically assume all systems are like Canada or England? We are the only industrialized nation without universal healthcare. There are countless other systems out there to look at too. We have the benefit of being able to learn from all the systems as to what works and what does not. Obamas remedy was horrible in my opinion. He did not change any of the root rot. He only made it worse by forcing Americans to have to buy into the current mess.
Equal rights for gays and abortion rights.... well the real conservative (not religious right position) is to let the individual decide. I agree with people like Barry Goldwater on these issues.
Healthcare is not a right. Why you ask, because a right confers no obligation on another person. Each person must be held responsible for their own care and well being, if you fail then you perish unless another individual or group is VOLUNTARILY willing to help you.
This personal responsibility is utterly lost on a great many people.
After reading some on Germany's health care system a thought occurred to me. Where is their impetus to invent new medicines or procedures since the profit motive has been dissolved? Humans aren't that altruistic unless a gun is pointed at their head and then you can bet they won't be thinking about doing a good job, they'll be thinking about doing just enough to survive another day.
http://www.pharmatimes.com/article/11-07-11/German_policy_hurting_pharma_innovation_-_Lilly_CEO.aspx
www.cges.umn.edu/docs/Dietz_Health_CareInnovation_CGES.pdf (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/www.cges.umn.edu/docs/Dietz_Health_CareInnovation_CGES.pdf) - This opens a PDF, you'll notice that there is a directive on page 14 re: individual prescription costs exceeded. Lots of government involvement which is 180 degrees from how things should be.
Healthcare is not a right. Why you ask, because a right confers no obligation on another person. Each person must be held responsible for their own care and well being, if you fail then you perish unless another individual or group is VOLUNTARILY willing to help you.
This personal responsibility is utterly lost on a great many people.
After reading some on Germany's health care system a thought occurred to me. Where is their impetus to invent new medicines or procedures since the profit motive has been dissolved? Humans aren't that altruistic unless a gun is pointed at their head and then you can bet they won't be thinking about doing a good job, they'll be thinking about doing just enough to survive another day.
Germany is just as cutting edge as the US. Seimans out of Europe is one of the largest makers of medical everything. Next time you get an MRI or CAT Scan or a Xray or a Ultra Sound, look at the brand name it might be them. There are also many German drug makers. There is also just as much new medical break through's coming out of Europe as the US. Our system here currently as it stands lets the for profit makers bribe our politicians to get federal funding or to allow them to steal patents from medical university and research institutions and tweak them just a little and then resell them to you for way more. There is a reason all those companies make a huge profit. The gamed the system. The let you the tax payer pay for 95% of the R&D and then they do 5%, patent it and make you pay more than you can afford.
As to healthcare as a right...... its a free country, we can decide how we treat our fellow Americans any time we want. You don't like it, well fight for the broke system we have now. Corporations have no God given rights in my opinion so if they can't afford to chip into the healthcare system then they have no right to incorporation. The founding fathers agree with me on the rights of corporations too. They were wary of them too.
Humans aren't that altruistic unless a gun is pointed at their head
This statement is false. There are a great many reasons that humans are altruistic to others. You don't see many guns pointed at heads around Christmas gift giving, for example. A great many people volunteer to work helping the poor (e.g. Doctors abroad), or work as civil servants making a fraction of what they should be paid (e.g. Armed Forces, Police, Fire, Teachers, EMT).
Some would argue that they do it for the satisfaction they derive from helping others, in that sense it's still selfish. That may indeed be the cause, but the net effect is the same.
I think it's fair to say that you could find a good many people willing to work for a decent wage to find a cure for cancer.
Citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism#Anthropology (If you don't like wikipedia as a citation, scroll down and refer to their links)
H.
Our system here currently as it stands lets the for profit makers bribe our politicians to get federal funding or to allow them to steal patents from medical university and research institutions and tweak them just a little and then resell them to you for way more. There is a reason all those companies make a huge profit. The gamed the system. The let you the tax payer pay for 95% of the R&D and then they do 5%, patent it and make you pay more than you can afford.
Hence my statement that the biggest problem with the current healthcare system is the federal government.
As to healthcare as a right...... its a free country, we can decide how we treat our fellow Americans any time we want. You don't like it, well fight for the broke system we have now. Corporations have no God given rights in my opinion so if they can't afford to chip into the healthcare system then they have no right to incorporation. The founding fathers agree with me on the rights of corporations too. They were wary of them too.
There are other options besides the current system or having the government run it. People need to realize that before anything will change.
Hence my statement that the biggest problem with the current healthcare system is the federal government.
There are other options besides the current system or having the government run it. People need to realize that before anything will change.
OK well how would you fix the Gov mess? Don't just say keep gov out of it. Because it is gov who sets the rules for all business markets. Gov created corporations too, not God. So Gov has a role to play in making sure they do the right thing or Gov can rescind their rights of incorporation or existence.
Now to say a freemarket system is the answer alone is to say that you have never played a game of Monopoly to the end. Laisezze Fair never works in the long run. It always leads to monopolies and that is not a free market anymore then. That is economies of scale trumping the free market.
Now to treat Gov as always being a problem is to ignore what the founding fathers of this nation taught. The point of our system is to have a "Gov of by and for the people". Gov is not supposed to be a thing, we are supposed to be the gov. What needs to be done is to fix our Gov to represent all people. Not just those with the wealth and power to corrupt our Gov. If you don't believe our Gov is "we the people" the why join the military to defend this nation?
I don't think that insurance companies are evil, but they are for profit. The concept of insurance "indemnification" and health care, are at odds with each other. Insurance companies should not be in the health care industry.
The way that our government works now, only stands to magnify and create monopolies that would otherwise have a much more difficult time being established, if not exist at all.
Byte Stryke
07-24-2011, 20:24
well here is the ultimate conundrum.
either we allow the capitalist system to run its course and consume everything unchecked and unregulated
OR
We Regulate and mandate government control of the healthcare system...
I will let that soak for a bit.
I don't think that insurance companies are evil, but they are for profit. The concept of insurance "indemnification" and health care, are at odds with each other. Insurance companies should not be in the health care industry.
The way that our government works now, only stands to magnify and create monopolies that would otherwise have a much more difficult time being established, if not exist at all.
Let me address both parts. I don't think for profit medical insurance should exist at all. It is immoral to have any business to exist whose profit motive includes killing more people (denying life saving medical care to save money), rather than provide the best care. We have death panels today. They are teh worst kind possible. A system not beholden to the people and one that makes profit by denying care. It should be a not for profit business and that is all. The corruption of profit first motivation is too great. A company that denies care to make an extra 50K is no better than a hired assassin who was paid 50k to kill the same person. I agree that insurance companies should not be in the healthcare industry. But I am willing to let non profit ones exist.
I also agree that our gov now functions to protect monopolies rather than freedom. This has to do with wealth and power owning our gov not our people. I think my solution addresses how to fix that. How do you feel about my ideas?
well here is the ultimate conundrum.
either we allow the capitalist system to run its course and consume everything unchecked and unregulated
OR
We Regulate and mandate government control of the healthcare system...
I will let that soak for a bit.
Byte Stryke.... I agree.
well here is the ultimate conundrum.
either we allow the capitalist system to run its course and consume everything unchecked and unregulated
OR
We Regulate and mandate government control of the healthcare system...
I will let that soak for a bit.
Nice post there. Too bad its not that simple. The problem is the government has been regulating and mandating government control of our health care system for decades now and its only gotten worse.
Nice post there. Too bad its not that simple. The problem is the government has been regulating and mandating government control of our health care system for decades now and its only gotten worse.
I would argue the same for your post. How has gov mis-regulated is the crux of the issue. Because there has to be gov regulation. Whether that regulation is functioning in the best interest of the citizens of this nation or whether it functions to fuck the people in favor of Wallstreet profit is the problem.
Byte Strike post is an admission that there has to be a balance. As to where that balance is, that is the debate.
Zero government intervention leads to the creation of unions.
CMP_5.56
07-24-2011, 21:49
So what specifically do you disagree with that she wrote?
Germany's healthcare system works just fine and our system is fucked.
Do you know someone or have family in Germany? Because I have three friends that were born and raised there, and they sewm to hate the healthcare system there. Two of them are moving here because in their words, "all of our doctors moved there because they couldnt pay their bills here". They have said waiting times for treatments is ridiculous, and all the healthcae workers are sub par. I hear the same thing from my friends in Finland as well. seems to me it doesn't work. Or my good friend whoa dad died as a Canadian citizen, it only took them 16 weeks to complete the autopsy, and she only had to wait 2 more minths for the death certificate. Social healthcare is not the answer.
Zero government intervention leads to the creation of unions.
That is something I would like to hear more of? Why do you say that?
Do you know someone or have family in Germany? Because I have three friends that were born and raised there, and they sewm to hate the healthcare system there. Two of them are moving here because in their words, "all of our doctors moved there because they couldnt pay their bills here". They have said waiting times for treatments is ridiculous, and all the healthcae workers are sub par. I hear the same thing from my friends in Finland as well. seems to me it doesn't work. Or my good friend whoa dad died as a Canadian citizen, it only took them 16 weeks to complete the autopsy, and she only had to wait 2 more minths for the death certificate. Social healthcare is not the answer.
Are their systems perfect? Far from it. But at least their system covers all citizens. Ours fails at that miserably.
That is something I would like to hear more of? Why do you say that?
Unions were created to fight against unsafe work conditions. Eventually the government came along with organizations like OSHA and others to regulate working conditions. Now unions only serve to line the pockets of union bosses.
With ZERO government intervention, there might be fewer monopolies, but there might also be more unions. There might also be more power lines and sewer pipes as well though.
As was said before, it is all about the balance. Where do you lay the line?
Getting rid of lobbyists would probably be an excellent start.
n8tive97
07-24-2011, 22:16
No one has brought up the huge expense with all the frivolous lawsuits? It's a huge roll down hill to the consumer problem as well. How do these other countries handle those?
Byte Stryke
07-24-2011, 22:17
Do you know someone or have family in Germany? Because I have three friends that were born and raised there, and they seem to hate the healthcare system there. Two of them are moving here because in their words, "all of our doctors moved there because they couldn't pay their bills here". They have said waiting times for treatments is ridiculous, and all the healthcare workers are sub par. I hear the same thing from my friends in Finland as well. seems to me it doesn't work. Or my good friend whoa dad died as a Canadian citizen, it only took them 16 weeks to complete the autopsy, and she only had to wait 2 more months for the death certificate. Social healthcare is not the answer.
This^
No one has brought up the huge expense with all the frivolous lawsuits? It's a huge roll down hill to the consumer problem as well. How do these other countries handle those?
I'd think that a large part of the cost has to do with the fact that prices are automatically raised when an insurance company becomes involved. It is the exact same thing with body shops. I'm sure anyone in the auto body business could tell you that.
Hospitals don't even itemize the bills that they send to insurance companies. How can cost be controlled when no one even knows what the cost is?
I would argue the same for your post. How has gov mis-regulated is the crux of the issue. Because there has to be gov regulation. Whether that regulation is functioning in the best interest of the citizens of this nation or whether it functions to fuck the people in favor of Wallstreet profit is the problem.
Byte Strike post is an admission that there has to be a balance. As to where that balance is, that is the debate.
Have you ever heard of the Joint Commission???
They are a "non profit" org that inspects health care facilities on behalf of the government. My mother worked there and her fiance worked there as well.
I have a buddy thats works with the Cyber Knife industry which has to do with cancer treatment and they all call the Joint Commission the "Gestapo" of health care. Basically they come and inspect your facility and if your doors open the wrong way or something like that they will fine you and if you refuse to comply you loose your ability to collect medicare payments.
Its not only the taxes and fees the government charges, along with the undercutting of payments for services, but its also the cost of government compliance that has increased the cost of HC for all of us.
Unions were created to fight against unsafe work conditions. Eventually the government came along with organizations like OSHA and others to regulate working conditions. Now unions only serve to line the pockets of union bosses.
With ZERO government intervention, there might be fewer monopolies, but there might also be more unions. There might also be more power lines and sewer pipes as well though.
As was said before, it is all about the balance. Where do you lay the line?
Getting rid of lobbyists would probably be an excellent start.
Sewers and power lines are part of the commons our society could never function in a system where you had 8 sewer lines into your house. Same goes for power lines. Its laughable to think so.
Zero gov intervention would lead to more monopolies. A companies only imperative is to maximize profit. The less competition the better for them. This leads to monopolies and cartels. Regulation is needed to mitigate this natural trend.
Yes Unions were created to fight for safer working conditions and OSHA does cover that some. But to say that Unions have no roll today is to say that gov is perfect. I am sure you don't think that at all. Therefore there is still a role for unions to play. They advocate for the worker just as the corporation advocates for the bottom line. Now is there corruption? Sure, nothing is perfect. But the solution is the fix the corruption not to abolish them.
Getting rid of lobbyists sounds good in theory, but they do serve a purpose. Now, I would say how they operate needs reform. They are corrupt now and that needs to be addressed. But if they did work as intended, they would add to our system. As to the proper reform. Much of it has to do with keeping our politicians from being bribed.
Have you ever heard of the Joint Commission???
They are a "non profit" org that inspects health care facilities on behalf of the government. My mother worked there and her fiance worked there as well.
I have a buddy thats works with the Cyber Knife industry which has to do with cancer treatment and they all call the Joint Commission the "Gestapo" of health care. Basically they come and inspect your facility and if your doors open the wrong way or something like that they will fine you and if you refuse to comply you loose your ability to collect medicare payments.
Its not only the taxes and fees the government charges, along with the undercutting of payments for services, but its also the cost of government compliance that has increased the cost of HC for all of us.
Yes I know exactly what JACHO is. I have been through several of their inspections. My first one over a decade ago. Hospitals and other healthcare facilities spend a great deal of time doing horse and pony shows for them. I know that all too well.
JACHO serves a purpose that compliments gov. JACHO does not write all the regulations. They do write some of their own guidelines. They make suggestions and also inspect to see if a facility is in compliance with federal and state regulations too. In my opinion if the gov did its job properly JACHO would have no job. But, I don't care, their inspections help patients in the end and I like more than one set of eyes keeping people safe.
but its also the cost of government compliance that has increased the cost of HC for all of us. I am very thankful for gov compliance. Those regulations keep you and your loved ones alive. If there were no regulations from gov and the only thing that mattered was profit, you could be damn sure that many people would die for no other reason than it made someone a buck. I don't want the "Free Market" to be the only factor. Sorry, I would rather trust in standards than a system of buyer beware.
I'd think that a large part of the cost has to do with the fact that prices are automatically raised when an insurance company becomes involved. It is the exact same thing with body shops. I'm sure anyone in the auto body business could tell you that.
Hospitals don't even itemize the bills that they send to insurance companies. How can cost be controlled when no one even knows what the cost is?
Yes costs go up because of insurance companies. It costs hospitals and Drs a great deal of cash to pay someone in the office whose only job it is, is to fight the medical insurance companies to get you your healthcare you deserve. Insurance companies do nothing but leach off the system. They are parasites. They provide no care or service except to hold the purse strings up. Many people have died because some idiot on the other line who knew nothing about the illness told the Dr NO. They were thinking of profit alone and the Dr was thinking about saving your kids life.
They are parasites with a motivation to kill for even more profit. If we can't kill them off, then we need to end the for profit system.
No one should die so wallstreet can make more money. A business model should not be built on killing people to maximize profit. Its evil and immoral.
No one has brought up the huge expense with all the frivolous lawsuits? It's a huge roll down hill to the consumer problem as well. How do these other countries handle those?
Frivolous lawsuits........ are in the eye of the beholder. Let me give you something to think about. If Dr's or Hospitals never had to worry about being sued for malfeasance of any sort what do you think would happen. What would happen if there was no fear of having a large suit that drained them of cash. I'll tell you, they would do a cost benefit analysis, how many people can we kill before it costs us? We could kill 30 kids this year and not worry about a lawsuit or we could spend 50K dollars to fix the faulty what ever.
It is also every Americans right to have their day in court. Are you saying that people don't have the right to sue now? If that is the case, then whats next? This could get real ugly.
As to the cost of them. They make up about .03% of the cost of healthcare a year (memory I have to look it up again). Its minuscule. But corrupt politicians like to sell that line of bullshit because it benefits the people who own them. Makes profits go up..... and they don't care about your rights or your kids living. Its business nothing more.
Back to the op. Fuck her once then leave she is crazy and is going to chop your junk off. Or die in your place leaving you holding the bag of explaining what happened to the druggy bitch.
hollohas
07-25-2011, 08:55
No one should die so wallstreet can make more money. A business model should not be built on killing people to maximize profit. Its evil and immoral.
This doesn't make any sense. Insurance company income comes from LIVE people paying premiums. Why would they want to kill the source of their money?
As for universal healthcare (which is actually just universal health insurance in any of the forms as it has been presented) ...if you want healthcare, pay for it yourself. I don't believe it's a right. It is a luxury. The only people that benefit from universal healthcare are those that can't pay it it on their own otherwise. And if they can't pay for it, then someone else is paying for them, plain and simple. Someone or something (company) foots the bill for someone who doesn't have enough money. Those with money giving it to those without, by force of regulation...this should remind you of a key phrase we have been hearing a lot...
But you say we have a moral obligation to help others in need? And bad corporations and bad people don't help others voluntarily and that's why we need universal healthcare?
Shriners Hospital for Children.
Our system is not perfect, but providing ANY universal system is not the answer.
As for the OP, I'm from WP and think you're smart for staying away from Manitou girls. Old rivalries die hard.
This doesn't make any sense. Insurance company income comes from LIVE people paying premiums. Why would they want to kill the source of their money?
As for universal healthcare (which is actually just universal health insurance in any of the forms as it has been presented) ...if you want healthcare, pay for it yourself. I don't believe it's a right. It is a luxury. The only people that benefit from universal healthcare are those that can't pay it it on their own otherwise. And if they can't pay for it, then someone else is paying for them, plain and simple. Someone or something (company) foots the bill for someone who doesn't have enough money. Those with money giving it to those without, by force of regulation...this should remind you of a key phrase we have been hearing a lot...
But you say we have a moral obligation to help others in need? And bad corporations and bad people don't help others voluntarily and that's why we need universal healthcare?
Shriners Hospital for Children.
Our system is not perfect, but providing ANY universal system is not the answer.
As for the OP, I'm from WP and think you're smart for staying away from Manitou girls. Old rivalries die hard.
Good point, and while we're on the subject, I think the whole "Duty to act" BS that hospital ERs have to follow, like for instance a illegal with no insurance comes into the ER to be "treated" for a cough is f***ing bulls**t! I would tell them to go to Walgreens and get some damn cough syrup and not clog up the EMERGENCY room with their petty crap just because they're not here legally and only make $.57/hr. That's what needs to be fixed. I have a friend who nearly lost his thumb and waited for almost 2 hours before being seen at the ER, and who did he have to wait behind- about 15 people who didn't speak English and when asked about insurance said "None." Is our system broken? Hell yes. Would Obamacare fix it? F*** no!
And please stop this comparing our country to other countries sh**, it's quite annoying to hear how "such and such country has a far superior healthcare system." It strikes me as almost un-American, model ours off the best of others, but let's not say who has a better system and compare America to Europe, let's remember who limits freedom more here.
Byte Stryke
07-25-2011, 10:04
Germany also doesn't have 20 million illegals who are not putting anything back into the monetary system. Love the Mexican anchor babies...come to America illegally, drop a kid, and you are set for life. We have close to 30% no pay at my hospital...majority are illegals who are not paying anything into the system. Does Germany have a similar percentage that are stealing health care?
ask a German about the illegals from Turkey and the east. And yes its relatively about the same.
I was gonna stay out of this one....oh well
Re: Crazy liberal chick- She'll be moderately interesting, probably sexually adventurous, and may be ultimately teachable. My wife USED to be a democrat, now firmly libertarian(edging towards conservative).
Re: Healthcare
This is more complicated. The system is broken in so many ways, starting with our expectations of care. Not everything is successfully treatable. People watch too much House and CSI. Doctors are not omniscient, omnipotent beings with miraculous powers, they're people. While some medical knowledge and technology have seen huge advances, a lot of what they do is still a best guess. After all it's a tremendously complex subject, and the parameters are constantly in motion. So, if a simple mistake is made, it SHOULD NOT be grounds for a monstrous lawsuit. Only in cases of gross negligence should there be any grounds for a suit. Solution #1: Remove lawyers from the initial phases of any legal action concerning the practice of medicine. Independent peer review should be the first hurdle a case has to clear before a suit is filed in court. A simple negative outcome, if reasonable best practices were followed, is not cause for a suit. Think how much health care costs could be reduced if 11% of every healthcare dollar was not going to litigation!
The cost of healthcare is grossly overinflated by a number of factors:
Government regulations that require hospitals to treat everyone, regardless of their ability to pay. Much of their resources go to treatment of ailments and injuries that could be handled more effectively in another setting(doctor's office, first aid clinic)at vastly reduced cost. Many people have conditioned themselves to use the ER as their primary care physician. I have heard of a number of incidents here in the Denver area, where the same person called 911(with "chest pain"), rode in an ambulance to the hospital, then was released after a number of tests. The kicker: they lived a couple of miles away, and rode the ambulance to the hospital so they could go GROCERY SHOPPING at the store a couple of blocks from the hospital.
Insurance companies: motivated by shareholders, not the quality of healthcare. Insurance companies do not make money by paying claims. My father is a pediatrician (for the last 55 years or so), and the hoops that the insurance companies have set up make it necessary for him to employ 2 people full time, just to ensure he gets paid an average of 60% of the actual billed services, 90 to 120 days after they are rendered. These are the same insurance companies that underwrite his malpractice insurance to the tune of about $70k a year. Add to that their huge overhead and administrative costs, and it becomes easy to see why decent health insurance is prohibitively expensive. I pay almost 3K a year for insurance I hardly ever use, mostly because I don't seek medical aid for things that don't require it, but I maintain it because if I DO need significant medical care, it would bankrupt me and my family otherwise. My coverage sucks, BTW.
.gov: Encourages growth of the Medicare and Medicaid systems by allowing massive fraud and waste. The government disburses hundreds of billions of dollars on these programs, and a significant portion of that money is going to mythical companies to provide imaginary products and services to ethereal patients, and when the criminals are caught(as rarely as I step in unicorn poop), they are seldom prosecuted. In addition the government has created a gigantic bureaucracy devoted to regulating every facet healthcare.
I could go on and on about this, but the bottom line is that the only way that healthcare can be anything close to universal is to streamline the entire system. The first step is tort law reform, as the cost of litigation has created an avalanche effect in insurance company practices, hospitals and doctors playing CYA and performing unnecessary tests, and a host of government regulations to be complied with.
This doesn't make any sense. Insurance company income comes from LIVE people paying premiums. Why would they want to kill the source of their money?
That would be wrong. That would be what you think should happen or hope. But that is never the case. Insurance companies prime motive is to make profit. Not provide the best care and sometimes the best way to make profit is to let you die. If you are a healthy male age 24 and you get into a car accident. You can be sure as shit that there is an insurance actuary crunching numbers to see if they pay for your life saving care will they ever recoup that money in your lifetime. They also factor in whether you would even stay with the company for a lifetime. Your medical bill is for example 1 million dollars total or projected to be. I have seen it before. Its not that hard to do. That insurance company crunched the numbers and realized over the next 50 years that you will only ever pay in 200,000 total in premiums and you have only paid in 20K total in your whole life. You are a money loss. No matter what you or they do, they will never make up the cost. The more they deny care, the more they protect their profits.
When the motive is profit, quality healthcare is a distant last priority. Seen it many times.
Same scenario could happen to your little girl.
Same scenario could happen to your 58 year old mother.
Insurance companies look at numbers and if it costs them too much money, they deny you care. Based on pure profit motive alone.
And due to our insane system we have now, the second you try to use the free market to get a better one........ bam you have a preexisting condition. Sorry, no one will insure you now. Hope your child does not suffer for too long before she dies.
Recent estimates put number of illegals in Germany at 1 million. Population of Germany is 82 million.
Illegals in the US is over 20 million and our population is 300 million. So, if my math is correct we have 5 times as many illegals as Deutchland.
You also gotta figure in productivity. A fair amount of illegals in Germany are highly educated with high tech or medical training from some other country. Can you say that about our illegals?
Our illegals are educated with high tech training... if you look at from a 3rd world perspective- laying flagstones and brick/mortar is very high tech, if you live in Afghanistan! [ROFL1]
And I don't think Germany has an influx of illegals at nearly the same rate as us. Also I don't think Turkish immigrants are crossing into Germany with Turkish Army issued weapons.... I'm just saying.
Why we should treat everyone.............
Guy walks into a hospital with a cough. In your world the hospital turns him away. Sorry guy with cough, you can't pay, GTFO. Guy with cough (GWC) goes back onto the streets meets you, your wife, your children and you all are in an elevator (or where ever does not really matter) he goes into a coughing fit. HACK HACK HACK...he just can't stop. You and your wife and kids including your 2 month old child, get off the elevator early because you think its nasty.
As you get out you shout - "Why don't you get yourself checked out by a Dr? ya nasty jerk"
GWC replies through his coughing - "I tried........ but they denied me care because I could not pay for it, sorry about my cough."
About a week later your wife, your kid and your child all get a fever. You think thats odd.... you even go to the Dr. He tells you, you have the flu. You all get bed rest. But then you all start to cough and cough and cough. Your Dr does not understand why. But soon enough a month later after coughing so much they finally see on an Xray why you are coughing.
Congratulations......... you and the rest of your family now have Tuberculosis (TB) Not just any TB but the strains that are very strong.
Dr's try to treat your family. But your child is the first to die. Babies immune systems are just not strong enough for that. Your baby dies drowning in her own blood in her lungs from TB lesions.
Your other child........ she fights for a while but after a year and so many medical bills. All the while your insurance company is denying care... with you on the phone every day trying to keep them paying the bills to keep her alive. Well, the insurance company stopped paying and the hospital kicks her out. She dies at home. She might have lived through it. But hey, insurance company has got to make a profit and you could not pay your bills.
Your wife. Well she is like the walking dead. She hacks all the time but the Drs think she will live.
You on the other hand are a broken man with both kids dead way before their time.
All this could have been prevented had you treated the original guy who could not pay who had TB in its early stages.
A society where only money matters and only those who can pay deserve healthcare is a sick society. A society whose sickness will spread....... just like TB.
Cough cough
Would healthcare have helped the original guy with TB?
Why we should treat everyone.............
Guy walks into a hospital with a cough. In your world the hospital turns him away. Sorry guy with cough, you can't pay, GTFO. Guy with cough (GWC) goes back onto the streets meets you, your wife, your children and you all are in an elevator (or where ever does not really matter) he goes into a coughing fit. HACK HACK HACK...he just can't stop. You and your wife and kids including your 2 month old child, get off the elevator early because you think its nasty.
As you get out you shout - "Why don't you get yourself checked out by a Dr? ya nasty jerk"
GWC replies through his coughing - "I tried........ but they denied me care because I could not pay for it, sorry about my cough."
About a week later your wife, your kid and your child all get a fever. You think thats odd.... you even go to the Dr. He tells you, you have the flu. You all get bed rest. But then you all start to cough and cough and cough. Your Dr does not understand why. But soon enough a month later after coughing so much they finally see on an Xray why you are coughing.
Congratulations......... you and the rest of your family now have Tuberculosis (TB) Not just any TB but the strains that are very strong.
Dr's try to treat your family. But your child is the first to die. Babies immune systems are just not strong enough for that. Your baby dies drowning in her own blood in her lungs from TB lesions.
Your other child........ she fights for a while but after a year and so many medical bills. All the while your insurance company is denying care... with you on the phone every day trying to keep them paying the bills to keep her alive. Well, the insurance company stopped paying and the hospital kicks her out. She dies at home. She might have lived through it. But hey, insurance company has got to make a profit and you could not pay your bills.
Your wife. Well she is like the walking dead. She hacks all the time but the Drs think she will live.
You on the other hand are a broken man with both kids dead way before their time.
All this could have been prevented had you treated the original guy who could not pay who had TB in its early stages.
A society where only money matters and only those who can pay deserve healthcare is a sick society. A society whose sickness will spread....... just like TB.
Cough cough
While that's a s****y example, and a bit extreme, do you know who pays for the guy who can't afford healthcare? We do! And in a universal healthcare system everyone pays for everyone. And what about those of us who rarely (if ever) go to the doctor? Oh yeah, we have to pay into the pot too, we can't opt out of it if it's universal and mandatory. So my hard earned money goes to Pablo and his family to get fixed up, instead of maybe going into investments to pay for my retirement, or my children's college fund. I guess my money isn't really my money. Hmm, socialism, seemed to work great of the Nazis.
Perfect example- every s**tbag that can't afford insurance or whatever, goes and abuses the current system by walking into the ER just raised the price. The billing department knows they are going to bill the person, but the person can't afford it... loss. So who pays the bill? Everyone else. Wait until it's only affordable by the richest people, then tell me if Mr. Cough deserves to get a free pass when we're all dying.
Our illegals are educated with high tech training... if you look at from a 3rd world perspective- laying flagstones and brick/mortar is very high tech, if you live in Afghanistan! [ROFL1]
And I don't think Germany has an influx of illegals at nearly the same rate as us. Also I don't think Turkish immigrants are crossing into Germany with Turkish Army issued weapons.... I'm just saying.
At one time in Germany a child could be born to parents that were born in Germany and still not be a German citizen. There was some recent reform to that system. Not sure how it currently stands.
While that's a s****y example, and a bit extreme, do you know who pays for the guy who can't afford healthcare? We do! And in a universal healthcare system everyone pays for everyone. And what about those of us who rarely (if ever) go to the doctor? Oh yeah, we have to pay into the pot too, we can't opt out of it if it's universal and mandatory. So my hard earned money goes to Pablo and his family to get fixed up, instead of maybe going into investments to pay for my retirement, or my children's college fund. I guess my money isn't really my money. Hmm, socialism, seemed to work great of the Nazis.
Perfect example- every s**tbag that can't afford insurance or whatever, goes and abuses the current system by walking into the ER just raised the price. The billing department knows they are going to bill the person, but the person can't afford it... loss. So who pays the bill? Everyone else. Wait until it's only affordable by the richest people, then tell me if Mr. Cough deserves to get a free pass when we're all dying.
Yeah and it would have cost you less money to treat the one poor guy rather than the whole family who got sick from him. This example ,while to you seems extreme, it is not. TB is real and its growing and getting worse. Its getting to be resistant to drugs more and more. Its just one of many diseases. So the more people in society who don't get treatment for it or many other forms of illness, the faster they spread. Which means more people will get it and all of society pays more in the end.
But hey....... me first right
Would healthcare have helped the original guy with TB?
Yes, he could have gotten treatment and have been cured. But not all people can be cured. TB hits some hard and some people can live for a while with it. At one time before modern medicine TB was a huge menace. Esp back in the 1800s.
Examples famous people who died of TB (George Orwell did) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tuberculosis_cases
What is TB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis
If nothing else, the guy with TB would have know what he had and how he could kill that child with his cough. He could have been instructed to wear a mask to prevent or cut down on transmission.
Well the response was just so damn funny I had to post it!
I think that the government has no place taking away a woman's right to choose or denying any two adults the right to be married regardless of the sex of their partner.
I think we spend too much money on defense and not enough on education.
I will always support the men and women who serve in our armed forces but that doesn't mean I have to agree with every decision made by our government on where, when and why to send them, and this does not make me any less of an American.
I can agree with the crazy liberal woman as far as the highlighted parts.
I'm straight and have been married to the same woman for over 20 years, if a couple of gay guys want to get married, that's not going to negatively affect me one bit.
We are falling behind many other countries in terms of education and it will eventually catch up to us....if it hasn't already.
I see no point in a handful of recent military interventions we've undertaken as a nation - absolutely pointless loss of American life with no financial, political, or security return on the investment.
Hmmm.....maybe I'm a crazy liberal too [Eek2]
And what about those of us who rarely (if ever) go to the doctor?
Brother, enjoy your good health but don't count on that statement being true your entire life. Once you learn the joys of dealing with health insurance companies, you will also wish a pox upon their house.
H.
Brother, enjoy your good health but don't count on that statement being true your entire life. Once you learn the joys of dealing with health insurance companies, you will also wish a pox upon their house.
H.
Thankfully I'm covered by the VA for the rest of my life... if anything comes out of any injuries or illness sustained from service I'm good. New nightmare- I worked security and OP for a burn pit in Afghanistan for a while, they just started getting new cases popping up with pulmonary issues relating to that, so my good health may not last long... but I'm covered.
Maybe when I have a family and all that I'll worry, but until then I really can see this issue of abuse getting worse until we get a good viable fix.
Thankfully I'm covered by the VA for the rest of my life... if anything comes out of any injuries or illness sustained from service I'm good. New nightmare- I worked security and OP for a burn pit in Afghanistan for a while, they just started getting new cases popping up with pulmonary issues relating to that, so my good health may not last long... but I'm covered.
Maybe when I have a family and all that I'll worry, but until then I really can see this issue of abuse getting worse until we get a good viable fix.
So you are happy you yourself have socialized healthcare but you don't think your fellow citizens deserve the same treatment?
So you are happy you yourself have socialized healthcare but you don't think your fellow citizens deserve the same treatment?
he earned his healthcare by writing a blank check...
So you are happy you yourself have socialized healthcare but you don't think your fellow citizens deserve the same treatment?
How is VA Healthcare socialized? It's obvious you have no idea what hoops and crap I have to go through just to get help. Granted I don't have to pay for it, but that's something I earned through my service to this country (and at great cost to my future health and well being). I'd much rather not have a disability rating and be eligible for regular healthcare like the rest of my family. I have a jacked up shoulder that will require surgery within the next few years, but will have to jump through hoops just to get it. I have recurring neck pain from surgery I had to get a year ago. I have other illness and injury that will haunt me later. I don't think the VA is doing a good enough job because just getting an appointment to be looked at by a specialist takes 3-6 months, not to mention a referral. So no, I don't think my fellow citizens deserve the same treatment, they deserve better. I already am in groups pushing to improve the VA system, but it's the system I have to use and I'm glad it's there. Me and my fellow veterans suffer injuries and illness that normal drs are ill equipped to handle, that's why we have our separate system. So by you saying that I live by a double standard is just wrong and irresponsible. Frankly, I'd rather there be a good, viable fix, one that doesn't promote abuse, one that doesn't promote a communist/socialist way of doing things, and one that provides the best standard of medicine available... oh and before I forget, one that the President and Congress fall under as well.
bellavite1
07-25-2011, 12:37
Why we should treat everyone.............
Guy walks into a hospital with a cough. In your world the hospital turns him away. Sorry guy with cough, you can't pay, GTFO. Guy with cough (GWC) goes back onto the streets meets you, your wife, your children and you all are in an elevator (or where ever does not really matter) he goes into a coughing fit. HACK HACK HACK...he just can't stop. You and your wife and kids including your 2 month old child, get off the elevator early because you think its nasty.
As you get out you shout - "Why don't you get yourself checked out by a Dr? ya nasty jerk"
GWC replies through his coughing - "I tried........ but they denied me care because I could not pay for it, sorry about my cough."
About a week later your wife, your kid and your child all get a fever. You think thats odd.... you even go to the Dr. He tells you, you have the flu. You all get bed rest. But then you all start to cough and cough and cough. Your Dr does not understand why. But soon enough a month later after coughing so much they finally see on an Xray why you are coughing.
Congratulations......... you and the rest of your family now have Tuberculosis (TB) Not just any TB but the strains that are very strong.
Dr's try to treat your family. But your child is the first to die. Babies immune systems are just not strong enough for that. Your baby dies drowning in her own blood in her lungs from TB lesions.
Your other child........ she fights for a while but after a year and so many medical bills. All the while your insurance company is denying care... with you on the phone every day trying to keep them paying the bills to keep her alive. Well, the insurance company stopped paying and the hospital kicks her out. She dies at home. She might have lived through it. But hey, insurance company has got to make a profit and you could not pay your bills.
Your wife. Well she is like the walking dead. She hacks all the time but the Drs think she will live.
You on the other hand are a broken man with both kids dead way before their time.
All this could have been prevented had you treated the original guy who could not pay who had TB in its early stages.
A society where only money matters and only those who can pay deserve healthcare is a sick society. A society whose sickness will spread....... just like TB.
Cough cough
Let ME tell you how it works, since I come from a country (Italy) that does actually have public health care:
Guy gets in the hospital and, after coughing for 5 hours in an overcrowded waiting room and infecting everybody around him, gets a doctor to look him up.
However the doctor just came out of school and effectively uses his patients as practicing tools.
He must get enough experience working for cheap (at least he thinks he is working for cheap) in the public health care so he can actually start working in a private clinic and make a lot of money curing people that can afford a REAL doctor.
Or maybe he never made it in the private sector because he is a demotivated loser, you pick.
The doctor misdiagnoses him.
Gives him a cough syrup and sends him home.
You all get into the elevator with him...
n8tive97
07-25-2011, 12:51
So you are happy you yourself have socialized healthcare but you don't think your fellow citizens deserve the same treatment?
Wow... way out of line.
He deserves a hell of allot more than that (VA), and that is a slap in the face for all he has sacrificed!
Let ME tell you how it works, since I come from a country (Italy) that does actually have public health care:
Guy gets in the hospital and, after coughing for 5 hours in an overcrowded waiting room and infecting everybody around him, gets a doctor to look him up.
However the doctor just came out of school and effectively uses his patients as practicing tools.
He must get enough experience working for cheap (at least he thinks he is working for cheap) in the public health care so he can actually start working in a private clinic and make a lot of money curing people that can afford a REAL doctor.
Or maybe he never made it in the private sector because he is a demotivated loser, you pick.
The doctor misdiagnoses him.
Gives him a cough syrup and sends him home.
You all get into the elevator with him...
Let me tell you how America works......... its the same. You just don't know about it.
Wow... way out of line.
He deserves a hell of allot more than that (VA), and that is a slap in the face for all he has sacrificed!
Wrong, I never said he did not deserve care. I think he should have that and more. I just think that ALL Americans deserve some basic form of healthcare too. Not just veterans. Did he earn that? Sure and I would fight for his rights to get even better care. But to say that your fellow country men that he fought to keep free deserve nothing is not right either.
Thankfully I'm covered by the VA for the rest of my life...
HFS! So you have socialized health care, and you are arguing against it?
Mind: blown.
H.
How is VA Healthcare socialized? It's obvious you have no idea what hoops and crap I have to go through just to get help. Granted I don't have to pay for it, but that's something I earned through my service to this country (and at great cost to my future health and well being). I'd much rather not have a disability rating and be eligible for regular healthcare like the rest of my family. I have a jacked up shoulder that will require surgery within the next few years, but will have to jump through hoops just to get it. I have recurring neck pain from surgery I had to get a year ago. I have other illness and injury that will haunt me later. I don't think the VA is doing a good enough job because just getting an appointment to be looked at by a specialist takes 3-6 months, not to mention a referral. So no, I don't think my fellow citizens deserve the same treatment, they deserve better. I already am in groups pushing to improve the VA system, but it's the system I have to use and I'm glad it's there. Me and my fellow veterans suffer injuries and illness that normal drs are ill equipped to handle, that's why we have our separate system. So by you saying that I live by a double standard is just wrong and irresponsible. Frankly, I'd rather there be a good, viable fix, one that doesn't promote abuse, one that doesn't promote a communist/socialist way of doing things, and one that provides the best standard of medicine available... oh and before I forget, one that the President and Congress fall under as well.
Ronin, I feel the same way as you. But to say the VA is not Socialize medicine is to admit you don't understand what the VA is at its core. It is socialize medicine for Veterans. Did you earn the right to be seen in that socialized medical system. Sure and I will fight to make sure you get better care than the standard that is todays VA. To give the VA credit. It has come a long way. Sadly due to the recent influx of so many Veterans and congress not paying for their care, the VA is strapped. War costs money....... and it costs for decades after in the lives of those who served. The cost of war does not stop when the bombs stop dropping.
I just think that ALL American deserve some basic level of care that will not force them into bankruptcy for any of the things that can happen to you in life. We can chose to have a society like that. Or we can chose to turn our back on our fellow country men. To me it is the path of honor to have healthcare for all Americans. Its not cheap (in the long term I feel its cheaper), but to me, its the right thing to do.
HFS! So you have socialized health care, and you are arguing against it?
Mind: blown.
H.
Arguing against doing the current way they propose! It's not 100% socialized, there are stipulations to VA Health coverage (such as certain disability rating). While not every Veteran gets it, those that do there are some rules to it. I'm not saying a universal healthcare is wrong, but for crying out loud do it right. Frankly all these attacks against me saying I'm a hypocrite (and not in so many words but I can read between the lines) are a bit unnerving as you totally disregard the point I'm trying to make. George W. Bush even said it, our current system is broken, it's open to abuse, and we have too many people without coverage that need it. But exempting lawmakers and the president himself is wrong. Making sub-standard care the norm is also wrong. Health insurance is a luxury in this country, and yes that I feel is wrong. I don't think only the rich should be able to afford it, I know people who need it but don't have it, then there are others who have it and don't need it. Something is wrong here, but I'm not smart enough on this topic to propose the fix.
Arguing against doing the current way they propose! It's not 100% socialized, there are stipulations to VA Health coverage (such as certain disability rating). While not every Veteran gets it, those that do there are some rules to it. I'm not saying a universal healthcare is wrong, but for crying out loud do it right. Frankly all these attacks against me saying I'm a hypocrite (and not in so many words but I can read between the lines) are a bit unnerving as you totally disregard the point I'm trying to make. George W. Bush even said it, our current system is broken, it's open to abuse, and we have too many people without coverage that need it. But exempting lawmakers and the president himself is wrong. Making sub-standard care the norm is also wrong. Health insurance is a luxury in this country, and yes that I feel is wrong. I don't think only the rich should be able to afford it, I know people who need it but don't have it, then there are others who have it and don't need it. Something is wrong here, but I'm not smart enough on this topic to propose the fix.
Ronin don't take it personally. Or at least know that I personally was not trying to insult you. At least not on purpose. But part of debate is getting your feelings hurt. Sadly the term "Socialist" is now used as a slur usually by people that don't understand the word either.
It's not 100% socialized, there are stipulations to VA Health coverage (such as certain disability rating) That just means that not everyone gets 100% of the socialized system. Why not end the rating system entirely and make all Americans qualify?
As a note. I don't like Obamacare.... I think its unconstitutional.
clublights
07-25-2011, 13:51
After reading all this I'm still left with my basic question...
How can anyone want the same folks that brought us gems like the DMV, 500 dollar hammers, and 1000 buck toilet seats be in control of everyone's medical care ?
The VA is just an example of what will happen for the rest of us. This is the same VA that a friend of mine had to spend weeks convincing he wasn't dead... Really he was standing there telling them he was alive.. and they kept telling him he was dead.
After reading all this I'm still left with my basic question...
How can anyone want the same folks that brought us gems like the DMV, 500 dollar hammers, and 1000 buck toilet seats be in control of everyone's medical care ?
The VA is just an example of what will happen for the rest of us. This is the same VA that a friend of mine had to spend weeks convincing he wasn't dead... Really he was standing there telling them he was alive.. and they kept telling him he was dead.
If you think todays private for profit healthcare system is not just as broke.... well you need to learn more. If you think gov is broke the answer is not all gov is bad. The answer is fix whats wrong. Efficiency is key. Why are we paying 1K for a hammer. There is corruption there and it needs to be fixed.
As to the DMV.... well they are a victim of budget shortcuts. You get what you pay for... or won't pay for. I for one think the DMV does not go far enough in some aspects. We need a better way to test for dumbass drivers. But we also need to find a way to cut through the bureaucratic red tape of the DMV too. In general after living in so many places all over the US, the DMV of Co is average.
clublights
07-25-2011, 14:03
If you think todays private for profit healthcare system is not just as broke.... well you need to learn more. If you think gov is broke the answer is not all gov is bad. The answer is fix whats wrong. Efficiency is key. Why are we paying 1K for a hammer. There is corruption there and it needs to be fixed.
As to the DMV.... well they are a victim of budget shortcuts. You get what you pay for... or won't pay for. I for one think the DMV does not go far enough in some aspects. We need a better way to test for dumbass drivers. But we also need to find a way to cut through the bureaucratic red tape of the DMV too. In general after living in so many places all over the US, the DMV of Co is average.
I didn't say the current system was perfect.. or even any good.
What I said breaks down to ...
How can you expect a system(.gov) that as repeatedly shown it can't do things right.. to "suddenly" do something right ?
You think that medical care won't eventually come to "budget shortfalls" ?
As to the DMV.... well they are a victim of budget shortcuts. You get what you pay for... or won't pay for.
What you get at the DMV has NOTHING to do with budgets. It has everything to do with petty, bitter government employees vying to do as little as possible for their inflated salaries, while using their authority to stroke their self esteem by making life a living hell for those they allegedly serve. There is no better example of people moving at "the speed of government". They have zero motivation to give half a shit, because they are virtually impossible to fire.
And you think that turning our health care over to similar .gov troglodytes is going to be an improvement?
hollohas
07-25-2011, 14:10
Let ME tell you how it works, since I come from a country (Italy) that does actually have public health care:
Guy gets in the hospital and, after coughing for 5 hours in an overcrowded waiting room and infecting everybody around him, gets a doctor to look him up.
However the doctor just came out of school and effectively uses his patients as practicing tools.
He must get enough experience working for cheap (at least he thinks he is working for cheap) in the public health care so he can actually start working in a private clinic and make a lot of money curing people that can afford a REAL doctor.
Or maybe he never made it in the private sector because he is a demotivated loser, you pick.
The doctor misdiagnoses him.
Gives him a cough syrup and sends him home.
You all get into the elevator with him...
I just moved on from a 4 year job with an Italian owned and operated company. One of the head guys of that company told me he pays $5k per month for health insurance for his family of 4. He makes a lot, so he pays a lot. Forklift driver guy in same company that doesn't make a lot (doesn't pay any) gets basically the same healthcare. That's not right.
I have no reason not to trust his word. Bellavite, you maybe able to confirm if that sounds right or not.
Bottom line is this: Someone is paying for those that can't afford it one way or another. Granted, right now we all pay higher costs to cover those that go get treatment and can't afford it. Either way we are paying for those that can't. But I would argue that under a universal system the number of people using the healthcare system who can't pay would be much higher. As it is now, most that can't pay don't go. But if it was free???? You bet those same people that didn't go before would if it was free. And those of us that do pay will be covering the higher cost of larger numbers of "non-payers" using the system. It is insane to think that if it was made free for more people, the costs will go down. Absolute bullshit.
As for nynco saying those non-payers should get treated so they don't get the rest of us sick? That's BS. Mr. Fictional TB guy would not have been diagnosed with TB anyway after hours of waiting. The healthcare system is already overloaded. There aren't enough doctors as is. Add more patients because the care is free and you're increasing wait times and costs. Increased costs mean costs must be managed. Managing costs means less care. No xray of his lungs. Only one minute talking to an actual doctor (if you think that's an exaggeration, look it up. With the current patient load of doctors, that's how much you get. Add more patients and the same amount of doctors...you do the math.)
Result? Cough syrup and a door hitting him in the ass. Getting the family sick in the elevator anyway, just costing more money this time. How's that better?
Because nynco is stuck on TB I have one more comment on that. TB may be on the rise again but it is relativity unheard of in the US. At one time it was a bigger problem...but was it Universal Health Care that reduced it so dramatically?
I will say it again, healthcare is a luxury. I pay a hefty price to give that luxury to my family. And I choose to also chip in so other people can have it too. I just want to choose who I help. I donate to Shriners. I donate to Children's. And I like to think I donate to the VA with my tax dollars. If I could make more of my tax dollars go to the VA instead of to studying the effects of global warming on bacteria in the Colorado river, I would.
To those that can't afford that luxury, too bad. Life's a bitch and I feel for you. Work hard to find a new/better job with better insurance, more income or pray hard that others will choose to help you but it's by no means their obligation.
I'll add that I agree health insurance companies generally suck. I don't doubt they screw people or at least make it hard. My insurance has been good to my family of 3 but that may be because I pay $12k out-of-pocket for premiums and my company matches. Get what you pay for I guess. (BTW - This went up like 50% immediately after Obama Care passed...coincidence? Government tried to help and MY costs went up.)
Zundfolge
07-25-2011, 14:22
If you think todays private for profit healthcare system is not just as broke.... well you need to learn more.
Private, for profit healthcare is significantly better than the alternatives. Just like Private, for profit X is ALWAYS better than government run X.
But that belies your real problem. You hate capitalism, thus by extension you hate liberty.
America's health care system is the best in the world. Sure it may appear to cost more than some socialized system (because most of the costs of socialized systems are hidden) but you get better care in the US than anywhere else in the world even if you can't afford it.
Also, if you look at everything else in America its more expensive than most of the rest of the world. Cars, hamburgers, computers, bluejeans, beer ... all these things cost more in America than they do in most of the rest of the world. Of course the average American MAKES A LOT MORE than the most people on the planet.
The only reason to change our system is to create a corrupt system where those with political connections are well taken care of and the rest are just screwed.
If you think gov is broke the answer is not all gov is bad.Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
-George Washington
I'd rather not let this in-eloquent force have control over my body thankyouverymuch.
Efficiency is key. Government (often by design) is the least efficient means of providing goods or services. The inefficiency is because government decisions are made politically, not based on what is the best practice or the most efficient. You add in the tendency for politicians to try to enforce some form of cosmic justice (often called "social justice") on the people and you end up with inequalities and inefficiencies that are downright malicious.
Sure there can be inefficiencies in the private system but most of those are creations of government regulations. Those inefficiencies that are the side effect of a free market are small and can be lived with when compared to the evils of government control.
TANSTAAFL
clublights
07-25-2011, 14:28
What you get at the DMV has NOTHING to do with budgets. It has everything to do with petty, bitter government employees vying to do as little as possible for their inflated salaries, while using their authority to stroke their self esteem by making life a living hell for those they allegedly serve. There is no better example of people moving at "the speed of government". They have zero motivation to give half a shit, because they are virtually impossible to fire.
And you think that turning our health care over to similar .gov troglodytes is going to be an improvement?
Tho my hatred of the DMV is not nearly as deep seated as TFog's here.. and trust me I hate the DMV more then I hate traffic cops with ticket quotas at the end of the month!( and thats a big bag of hate right there ... ) his point is my point exactly.
Have you ever thought to yourself " Gee self I really hope my next doctor visit goes just like my last DMV visit".
Heck you can replace DMV with Social Security office, or unemployment office (hmm... both "insurances" run by the .gov) or the court/justice system.
Running with the justice system reference... Would the doctors become like Judges and nurses become the DA's? At least in the courts you have jury's and defense attorneys....
bellavite1
07-25-2011, 14:31
I just moved on from a 4 year job with an Italian owned and operated company. One of the head guys of that company told me he pays $5k per month for health insurance for his family of 4. He makes a lot, so he pays a lot. Forklift driver guy in same company that doesn't make a lot (doesn't pay any) gets basically the same healthcare. That's not right.
I have no reason not to trust his word. Bellavite, you maybe able to confirm if that sounds right or not.
Bottom line is this: Someone is paying for those that can't afford it one way or another. Granted, right now we all pay higher costs to cover those that go get treatment and can't afford it. Either way we are paying for those that can't. But I would argue that under a universal system the number of people using the healthcare system who can't pay would be much higher. As it is now, most that can't pay don't go. But if it was free???? You bet those same people that didn't go before would if it was free. And those of us that do pay will be covering the higher cost of larger numbers of "non-payers" using the system. It is insane to think that if it was made free for more people, the costs will go down. Absolute bullshit.
As for nynco saying those non-payers should get treated so they don't get the rest of us sick? That's BS. Mr. Fictional TB guy would not have been diagnosed with TB anyway after hours of waiting. The healthcare system is already overloaded. There aren't enough doctors as is. Add more patients because the care is free and you're increasing wait times and costs. Increased costs mean costs must be managed. Managing costs means less care. No xray of his lungs. Only one minute talking to an actual doctor (if you think that's an exaggeration, look it up. With the current patient load of doctors, that's how much you get. Add more patients and the same amount of doctors...you do the math.)
Result? Cough syrup and a door hitting him in the ass. Getting the family sick in the elevator anyway, just costing more money this time. How's that better?
Because nynco is stuck on TB I have one more comment on that. TB may be on the rise again but it is relativity unheard of in the US. At one time it was a bigger problem...but was it Universal Health Care that reduced it so dramatically?
I will say it again, healthcare is a luxury. I pay a hefty price to give that luxury to my family. And I choose to also chip in so other people can have it too. I just want to choose who I help. I donate to Shriners. I donate to Children's. And I like to think I donate to the VA with my tax dollars. If I could make more of my tax dollars go to the VA instead of to studying the effects of global warming on bacteria in the Colorado river, I would.
To those that can't afford that luxury, too bad. Life's a bitch and I feel for you. Work hard to find a new/better job with better insurance, more income or pray hard that others will choose to help you but it's by no means their obligation.
I'll add that I agree health insurance companies generally suck. I don't doubt they screw people or at least make it hard. My insurance has been good to my family of 3 but that may be because I pay $12k out-of-pocket for premiums and my company matches. Get what you pay for I guess. (BTW - This went up like 50% immediately after Obama Care passed...coincidence? Government tried to help and MY costs went up.)
+1
When Health Care becomes a right, plenty of people will develop a sense of entitlment and let others work hard to pay for it.
It's human nature.
I'll tell you what: I am tired of getting up at 4:30 AM 6 days a week so I can afford shit.
Where would you like me to send you my bills?
Oh, make sure they are paid in time, after all I am an immigrant, you all owe me![Tooth]
Zundfolge
07-25-2011, 14:42
+1
When Health Care becomes a right, plenty of people will develop a sense of entitlment and let others work hard to pay for it.
A right CAN NOT exist where it creates an obligation on another. This is the essence of tyranny and slavery.
Because if a commodity becomes a right (and health care like any other good or service is simply a commodity) than those that provide it are OBLIGATED to provide it, regardless of the ability or even willingness of the recipient to pay for it.
If healthcare is a right than doctors and nurces can be chained to their clinics and forced at gunpoint (all laws are ultimately enforced at gunpoint) to provide free labor.
This is a system called SLAVERY.
For one I never said gov was to be the only person in the healthcare system. Thats your fear talkin. You will see the whole time that I have said that we need to kill the for profit insurance companies. They should not exits. All insurance should be nonprofit based.
Also the rights of incorporation are not God given. If a company can not afford to pay into some form of healthcare for all its workers then in my opinion that company does not deserve the rights the gov gives under articles of incorporation. Go out of business if you don't do business in the interests of the public. To those that say that is wrong......... My position is right in line with all the founders of this nation. Only the corrupt Supreme Court has ruled Corporations are people. That ruling is so wrong it warrants impeachment for anyone who ruled that way. Corporations are a creation of gov charter. If they can't abide by what ever rules we the people through our gov decide (meaning pay for healthcare for all workers) then they need to close up shop and make way for companies that can get the job done.
+1
When Health Care becomes a right, plenty of people will develop a sense of entitlment and let others work hard to pay for it.
It's human nature.
I'll tell you what: I am tired of getting up at 4:30 AM 6 days a week so I can afford shit.
Where would you like me to send you my bills?
Oh, make sure they are paid in time, after all I am an immigrant, you all owe me![Tooth]
Agree! Once it becomes free for everybody that's when it will get impossible to receive care in a timely manner. Everyone will be going all the time because hell, they don't have to pay. We would all pay high costs for those who cannot. Same thing going on right now, welfare! Abused by those who know how to weasel around it, and those of us who want to be honest, productive members of society, well we get stuck with the bill. If I could I'd only pay my share of what goes to Defense, infrastructure, military pay, VA, and civil service. I would love to not pay for the president's $400K/yr salary, or for Shaniqua and her 20 kids to sit around and not do anything, or perhaps so that Juan can go to the ER and get his stuffy nose taken care of without having to pay anything.... Some things just piss me off [Mad] Paying for other people's inability to care for themselves is near the top of the list.
A right CAN NOT exist where it creates an obligation on another. This is the essence of tyranny and slavery.
Because if a commodity becomes a right (and health care like any other good or service is simply a commodity) than those that provide it are OBLIGATED to provide it, regardless of the ability or even willingness of the recipient to pay for it.
If healthcare is a right than doctors and nurces can be chained to their clinics and forced at gunpoint (all laws are ultimately enforced at gunpoint) to provide free labor.
This is a system called SLAVERY.
So the Bill of Rights is tyranny and slavery?
Also, healthcare is not a commodity, thats your base mistake. Also the assumption that Dr and Nurses will be chained to their clinics is laughable. Anyone can chose not to take a job. Or are you advocating against the freemarket now?
All laws are not forced at gun point. In a free society you chose your leaders to create your laws. Or do you not understand the fundamentals of America? We are not a kingdom and this is not a theocratic state nor a dictatorship. Now do we need reform to make laws reflect the will of the people more. Heck yea...
hollohas
07-25-2011, 15:24
If a company can not afford to pay into some form of healthcare for all its workers then in my opinion that company does not deserve the rights the gov gives under articles of incorporation. Go out of business if you don't do business in the interests of the public.
You're on a roll today.. Here you say companies should be forced to buy a service for their employees. I'll bet you think this whether the company can afford it or not.
But, once again, the people shouldn't have to pay for it themselves..oh, no, that would be crazy...hee hee, people paying for their own shit...what a dumb idea...it's other's responsibility to buy them stuff like health insurance (sarcasm of course).
In another thread you say companies should pay higher taxes ("not get tax breaks" you said. Same thing I say). You really hate businesses don't you...
My position is right in line with all the founders of this nation.
You may want to check on this again. Pretty sure the founders hated high taxes and the government forcing them to do shit like buy something for someone else.
You're on a roll today.. Here you say companies should be forced to buy a service for their employees. I'll bet you think this whether the company can afford it or not.
But, once again, the people shouldn't have to pay for it themselves..oh, no, that would be crazy...hee hee, people paying for their own shit...what a dumb idea...it's other's responsibility to buy them stuff like health insurance (sarcasm of course).
In another thread you say companies should pay higher taxes ("not get tax breaks" you said. Same thing I say). You really hate businesses don't you...
You may want to check on this again. Pretty sure the founders hated high taxes and the government forcing them to do shit like buy something for someone else.
All business should play by the same base rules. Rules gov and we the people create. If they can't do business within those rules then they don't deserve the rights of incorporation. Man (Gov) created the articles of incorporation not God. Man can take them away for any reason that is a breach of law. Law is determined by the gov we the people elect. Check and balance...
Did I say people should not pay for it themselves? Their labor at the job pays for that. This just ensures that all companies play by the same base rules. It distorts the market by allowing some companies to not pay when others must. This is what Germany does all companies pay regardless. So the base cost is the same for all.
Also the founders of this nation did not fight to lower taxes. They fought to gain a form of gov that would reflect the will of the people. The Boston Tea Party was a protest against gov tax breaks for the British East India Trading Company. The corrupt gov on England was trying to rig the market by making the smaller corporations pay taxes that the British East company did not have to pay. This was putting mom and pop businesses out of work. The same thing happens today when we give tax breaks to companies to setup shop in your neighborhood but make others pay the correct non taxbreak rates. Its not the free market any more. Those taxbreaks became market manipulators.
You're on a roll today.. Here you say companies should be forced to buy a service for their employees. I'll bet you think this whether the company can afford it or not.
But, once again, the people shouldn't have to pay for it themselves..oh, no, that would be crazy...hee hee, people paying for their own shit...what a dumb idea...it's other's responsibility to buy them stuff like health insurance (sarcasm of course).
In another thread you say companies should pay higher taxes ("not get tax breaks" you said. Same thing I say). You really hate businesses don't you...
You may want to check on this again. Pretty sure the founders hated high taxes and the government forcing them to do shit like buy something for someone else.
This.
Do you like paying for some thug in the ghetto to buy a new stereo he doesn't need for his car? Or rims that serve no purpose to help improve his life? That's what welfare is doing!
All business should play by the same base rules. Rules gov and we the people create. If they can't do business within those rules then they don't deserve the rights of incorporation. Man (Gov) created the articles of incorporation not God. Man can take them away for any reason that is a breach of law. Law is determined by the gov we the people elect. Check and balance...
Did I say people should not pay for it themselves? Their labor at the job pays for that. This just ensures that all companies play by the same base rules.
There is currently no law that requires companies to pay for healthcare for their employees. The company I work at is an Inc. and I don't get healthcare through the company. So should my employer (who happens to be my father) be shut down and go to jail for that? He sees it as his employees get paid better rather than health benefits and can go pick the healthcare plan they choose rather than getting what he provides. It's a free economy we live in, but I feel I'm already paying for other people too much, and that kind of goes against my beliefs that there are no free handouts for me, so why should the lazy people get free stuff? I understand things like Unemployment, as I've had to use that to keep my bills paid and keep gas in my car so I could seek out work. I understand the premise behind welfare and food stamps, but they're meant to be temporary fixes until people get back on their feet, not something people rely and live off of long term. And there is where we have abuse. Healthcare would be abused by those who don't do anything to pay into it. I could see the whole system being lopsided very easily. People like Obama would claim that under a unified healthcare reform, those who make more money pay more money. Those who can't afford to pay in would still get it regardless and the rest of us would be paying. So much for survival of the fittest. Our modern "for the greater good" has stamped out laws of nature. If you can't provide for your family you shouldn't have had kids. Why should it be my responsibility to make sure your family is fed when I'm trying to provide for mine at the same time?
This.
Do you like paying for some thug in the ghetto to buy a new stereo he doesn't need for his car? Or rims that serve no purpose to help improve his life? That's what welfare is doing!
There is currently no law that requires companies to pay for healthcare for their employees. The company I work at is an Inc. and I don't get healthcare through the company. So should my employer (who happens to be my father) be shut down and go to jail for that? He sees it as his employees get paid better rather than health benefits and can go pick the healthcare plan they choose rather than getting what he provides. It's a free economy we live in, but I feel I'm already paying for other people too much, and that kind of goes against my beliefs that there are no free handouts for me, so why should the lazy people get free stuff? I understand things like Unemployment, as I've had to use that to keep my bills paid and keep gas in my car so I could seek out work. I understand the premise behind welfare and food stamps, but they're meant to be temporary fixes until people get back on their feet, not something people rely and live off of long term. And there is where we have abuse. Healthcare would be abused by those who don't do anything to pay into it. I could see the whole system being lopsided very easily. People like Obama would claim that under a unified healthcare reform, those who make more money pay more money. Those who can't afford to pay in would still get it regardless and the rest of us would be paying. So much for survival of the fittest. Our modern "for the greater good" has stamped out laws of nature. If you can't provide for your family you shouldn't have had kids. Why should it be my responsibility to make sure your family is fed when I'm trying to provide for mine at the same time?
Welfare stimulates demand and there are studies that show that the money multiplier from that pays for itself. I don't advocate for a welfare system for life.
As for your father. Society can chose to make a law that mandates he help pay for healthcare as part of the privileged he enjoys under the various articles of incorporation. Notice..... I have said nothing about sole proprietorship or companies who do not incorporate. Those do not enjoy the privileged of immunity and other things that articles of incorporation in various forms provide. Now if your father has to compete with everyone else who has to work under the same rules, then the market will equal out. He would not go out of business, either his profits would diminish or he will raises prices or cut employee pay. That is up to him and other market forces. Free market at work again....
I also don't believe in a society based on survival of the fittest alone. Sorry.... but I don't want America to emulate the dark ages. I have higher standards for my nation and I think a society based on that alone has no honor.
As to those who have more paying more, Yes I believe in a progressive tax system. It was Republican Teddy Roosevelt who first created that and I think it has served this nation well. What broke down is today we have the opposite. If you are a billion dollar investor, like a hedge fund manager, you pay less taxes than a middle class worker. This is part of the reason why we have such a large deficit. So your fears of the rich paying more are unfounded due to them bribing our gov to corruptly create tax structures just for them alone.
hollohas
07-25-2011, 16:07
All business should play by the same base rules. Rules gov and we the people create. If they can't do business within those rules then they don't deserve the rights of incorporation. Man (Gov) created the articles of incorporation not God. Man can take them away for any reason that is a breach of law. Law is determined by the gov we the people elect. Check and balance...
Did I say people should not pay for it themselves? Their labor at the job pays for that. This just ensures that all companies play by the same base rules. It does not distort the market by allowing some companies to not pay. This is what Germany does.
You said the company should pay for employee health care. To me that means employees not paying for it, yes. As for their labor paying for it, I would say their labor paid for their PAYCHECK. They can use their paycheck to buy health insurance or care, that's up to them. If the company is forced to buy it, they may, but they're just going to take it out of the employees salary anyway...they WILL NOT increase the salary rate of a job to include health insurance. If a particular job is worth $50k/year and the company is forced to buy $10k worth of insurance for the employee then you can bet the company is not going to spend $60k on that employee, they're still going to pay $50k ($40k to the employee and $10k to insurance).
Adding that enormous burden to companies if they couldn't take it out of the employees pay would most certainly hurt the company...especially small ones.
Also the founders of this nation did not fight to lower taxes. They fought to gain a form of gov that would reflect the will of the people. The Boston Tea Party was a protest against gov tax breaks for the British East India Trading Company. The corrupt gov on England was trying to rig the market by making the smaller corporations pay taxes that the British East company did not have to pay. This was putting mom and pop businesses out of work.
^Agreed, but my point is that gov regulations that force companies to buy their employees health insurance is the very type of tyrannical government control they fought against.
I didn't mean to get you on to taxes here so I will stay with health care...
As it is now, small companies aren't forced to buy insurance for their employees...and although big companies technically aren't either (they are playing by the same rules), in theory they are forced to buy insurance because that's what employees of big companies expect...controlled by the people you might say.
If all were to "play by the same rules" the other way so that all companies had to buy insurance, then that would hurt the mom and pop shops more than it would the big companies...I would say that's government regulations that hurt small businesses...much like the example you mentioned from history.
EDIT: BTW nynco, I appreciate the discussion and you have single-handily reduced the amount of work I got done today...
He would not go out of business, either his profits would diminish or he will raises prices or cut employee pay. That is up to him and other market forces. Free market at work again....
So in essence, he's got a choice to either pay for his employees' healthcare out of profits that previously would have been used to either grow the business, or as discretionary spending, or he can force the employee to pay for it by cutting wages and redirecting the money to health care. Meanwhile, those that don't contribute to the system continue to reap the benefits of others' labor...
A fallacy that most people don't seem to understand is that the market sets the rates of pay. How are you missing that.... an employer knows that he can get someone to do a job for 50k regardless of taxes or other factors he can only get someone to do that job for that pay. Taxes could be at 90% (theoretical point) and unless the employer found a way to pay that person 50K no one would work that job for that pay level. Now this can become distorted when there are too many people for too few jobs. (illegals are destroying the pay rates in trades this way). Now if the employer is making 300grand off that worker do you think he will give a raise out of the goodness of his heart or in his interest to keep a worker of that caliber working? If the worker is happy will he just give money away to him? What employer ever gives away profits for no good reason? They will not stay in business long if they do. Now, if the worker is unhappy and leaves then the employer just found out that 50K was not enough to keep that job filled. Free market at work again...
Taxes... Now taxes for a short period of time. Roughly 2 years will impact the workers pay. But after that 2 years period things will equal out. Either the employer figures out the worker will work for less or the guy quits and finds another job that will pay him 50K in take home pay. Free market at work and taxes when applied the same over each economic earning level make no real impact. This is why Europeans who do have a higher tax system still have a better standard of living than we do in some instances. Free market at work again...
So this correlates to healthcare the same as taxes have. If everyone is playing by the same rules then the market forces are equal.
Now....... here is what I see as the only constitutionally LEGAL way to do this. Medicare for all.... thats the base level paid for by taxes. All health insurance is nonprofit and your are free to buy as much supplemental care as you want. The freemarket is still maintained, but there is just a base floor of greater than zero now.
So in essence, he's got a choice to either pay for his employees' healthcare out of profits that previously would have been used to either grow the business, or as discretionary spending, or he can force the employee to pay for it by cutting wages and redirecting the money to health care. Meanwhile, those that don't contribute to the system continue to reap the benefits of others' labor...
In short yes.... but the best form of getting people off welfare is a job that will pay a living wage. Don't mix the two issues here. As much as they seem related, I am referring to workers alone. Will all Americans be covered regardless of income? Yes But diminishing the amount of people without a job is a separate issue.
So this correlates to healthcare the same as taxes have. If everyone is playing by the same rules then the market forces are equal.
Except for the unemployed. Under the system you propose, they get a free ride as far as healthcare goes. Only those that are productive will pay into the system, and they will pay disproportionately. The inequities in the system would likely create an incentive to find more "cheats" in the system, for example, barter and under the table cash transactions, similar to what some people do to evade income taxes...
Except for the unemployed. Under the system you propose, they get a free ride as far as healthcare goes. Only those that are productive will pay into the system, and they will pay disproportionately. The inequities in the system would likely create an incentive to find more "cheats" in the system, for example, barter and under the table cash transactions, similar to what some people do to evade income taxes...
As I said the two issues are not to be mixed. You seem to be still stuck on this. As I laid out before, it costs society more when we don't treat that TB case than it would if we did. We are saving money by treating everyone. As much as you don't like that idea, it costs you less money in the end. So it is in your own selfish best interest for everyone to have healthcare.
hollohas
07-25-2011, 16:47
So this correlates to healthcare the same as taxes have. If everyone is playing by the same rules then the market forces are equal.
They are all already playing equal. No company is currently forced to buy health insurance*. It's an added benefit used to attract employees. Just like paying that $50k in salary as the market rate...health insurance benefits are dictated by what the employee market wants. So government forcing companies to buy health insurance is the same as government controlling the market rate of pay. i.e. US.gov rules say forklift drivers must be paid $100k/yr...should we do that too?
*this was true but last I checked Obama care forces companies to buy health insurance for employees or pay a fine...still true? If it's still true, Obama Care sounds right up your ally nynco...
They are all already playing equal. No company is currently forced to buy health insurance*. It's an added benefit used to attract employees. Just like paying that $50k in salary as the market rate...health insurance benefits are dictated by what the employee market wants. So government forcing companies to buy health insurance is the same as government controlling the market rate of pay. i.e. US.gov rules say forklift drivers must be paid $100k/yr...should we do that too?
*this was true but last I checked Obama care forces companies to buy health insurance for employees or pay a fine...still true? If it's still true, Obama Care sounds right up your ally nynco...
The base rules need to be changed that is the point of reform. Healthcare is not a commodity. It is not a right either. But we as a society can chose to help each other or let others die. Your choice guys...... dark ages or civilization? That is the point of America we can chose.
Obama care is unconstitutional because it forces people to buy from a private individual (insurance provider). Hence the reason I said medicare for all and paid for by taxes. You can still buy healthcare on your own and the company can chose to pay for additional coverage or you can too. Free market at work... Obamas biggest mistake was doing Romnie care on the national level. He went against his base and listened to the corporations who bought Washington long ago.
hollohas
07-25-2011, 16:59
We are saving money by treating everyone.
This is the fundamental disagreement. By treating everyone, even those that cannot pay, MORE will use the system...more that can't pay that is. Not being able to pay deters some from seeking care...reducing the load. You can't say they will get other's sick without care, increasing the load. They will get others sick care or no care...
This just doesn't make sense.
On top of that, the system can't handle more people so quality of care for ALL will go down.
Unless this bright idea of giving care to all, even those that don't pay, includes some sort of plan to double or triple our healthcare providers, we all lose a lot more than money. The extra patients in the system don't pay so there will be no funds to educate, train, equip and hire new providers to care for those extra patients. So we need to pay both for non-payers' care AND pay for the extra doctors needed to treat them to make this work. That's a big bill to foot...
Zundfolge
07-25-2011, 17:01
But we as a society can chose to help each other or let others die. Your choice guys...... dark ages or civilization?
Government is not a synonym for society, prior to government getting into the charity business real heavily in the 60s there were plenty of church groups, charities and mutual aid societies to take care of the truly downtrodden.
Once government gets involved it breeds waste and corruption, both on the provider end AND the patient end (you give something away and people that don't need it will likely be the first in line to mooch).
You have created a false dilemma fallacy of logic with your "dark ages or civilization" bushwah. The choice you propose is between effective and free private enterprise or enslavement to government (which will end in WORSE service to the poor).
If you truly want to help people, leave it to private enterprise and private charity ... government is just a mess.
This is the fundamental disagreement. By treating everyone, even those that cannot pay, MORE will use the system...more that can't pay that is. Not being able to pay deters some from seeking care...reducing the load. You can't say they will get other's sick without care, increasing the load. They will get others sick care or no care...
This just doesn't make sense.
On top of that, the system can't handle more people so quality of care for ALL will go down.
Unless this bright idea of giving care to all, even those that don't pay, includes some sort of plan to double or triple our healthcare providers, we all lose a lot more than money. The extra patients in the system don't pay so there will be no funds to educate, train, equip and hire new providers to care for those extra patients. So we need to pay both for non-payers' care AND pay for the extra doctors needed to treat them to make this work. That's a big bill to foot...
The people are in the system now and if there are more that come into be seen well that means more jobs for workers now doesn't. Wow, you just stimulated the economy. As to providing the best care in the world for all Americans... Well this is up to us to decide what level of care is to be the base level. Today we have death panels run by for profit insurance companies with an incentive to kill you rather than treat you. I would rather take my chances with a panel that I can change through my elected representative than one where I have no say at all.
hollohas
07-25-2011, 17:07
But we as a society can chose to help each other or let others die. Your choice guys...... dark ages or civilization? That is the point of America we can chose.
I do choose to help...through donations. My choice. Not forced by government. That's not government's role to tell me how much to pay for others through taxation and medicare. They misuse my funds everyday and I rather send my money direct to those in need. My funds will buy an oxygen tank for 150 bucks when sent directly to a hospital but when sent through medicare...well that tank costs $1000.
Sure, argue that the system needs to be fixed, that medicare can improve and bring costs down (yeah right, no proof that they can manage that, but in theory sure), but that's still ignoring the fundamental belief that government shouldn't be telling me where to spend MY money.
Government is not a synonym for society, prior to government getting into the charity business real heavily in the 60s there were plenty of church groups, charities and mutual aid societies to take care of the truly downtrodden.
Once government gets involved it breeds waste and corruption, both on the provider end AND the patient end (you give something away and people that don't need it will likely be the first in line to mooch).
You have created a false dilemma fallacy of logic with your "dark ages or civilization" bushwah. The choice you propose is between effective and free private enterprise or enslavement to government (which will end in WORSE service to the poor).
If you truly want to help people, leave it to private enterprise and private charity ... government is just a mess.
And those charities were failing miserably.
You yourself are creating a false dilemma. Gov is supposed to be we the people who elect it. Therefore we are only enslaved by gov when gov is corrupted and not longer beholden to the people. Gov is a tool. And in our system, we the people are supposed to be the ones in charge of the tool. Or do not understand our constitution at all?
hollohas
07-25-2011, 17:09
Today we have death panels run by for profit insurance companies with an incentive to kill you rather than treat you.
I say again, they make profits from premiums paid by LIVE people...dead people don't pay. This simply ins't accurate.
hollohas
07-25-2011, 17:11
And those charities were failing miserably.
Shriners Hospital for Children is one of the best in the world...run by donations. Free for patients.
I say again, they make profits from premiums paid by LIVE people...dead people don't pay. This simply ins't accurate.
And living people sometimes won't live long enough to make up for the cost...... your childs injury is costing the company 5 million to fix her....... well that is too much let her die.
As I said the two issues are not to be mixed. You seem to be still stuck on this. As I laid out before, it costs society more when we don't treat that TB case than it would if we did. We are saving money by treating everyone. As much as you don't like that idea, it costs you less money in the end. So it is in your own selfish best interest for everyone to have healthcare.
As healthcare is a multibillion dollar industry, I would think the 2 are inextricably linked. Taxes and tax analogs, such as a mandatory universal healthcare payment, universally act as a damper on economic growth.
Hypothetically, Joe Paycheck earns $40k a year, less 30%ish for income taxes, FICA, etc. This leaves him about $31,500 to pay for his day to day expenses, including healthcare. Now let's say Joe has a pretty decent health plan that covers him, Mrs Paycheck, and Jr. Paycheck, and this costs him $750 a month. That takes $9000 of his income, but it provides good quality coverage. Start adding in his mortgage, a car payment, and living expenses, and Joe basically comes out even at the end of the month. Not getting rich, but living the dream.
Now universal healthcare comes along. Joe's employer is faced with a dilemma: reduce the workforce by a number of workers to cover the cost of providing healthcare, or asking his employees to take a pay cut of $9k per year to cover it. Now that $9k is going to not only cover Joe and his family, but his neighbor Tom Slacker's family as well.
Suddenly, the same amount of money is supposed to provide coverage for twice as many people. Either the cost of care must be reduced %50 somehow, or the quality of care will be degraded. Now I'll be the first to agree that the current system is horribly bloated and wasteful, particularly at the administrative levels, but to believe you can provide quality care for half the cost is naive at best.
Now say that Joe's employer takes the other tack, and decides to axe 10% of his work force to cover the cost instead. Now you have more people out of work, but still covered by the system.
I absolutely agree that insurance companies need to have incentives other than profit, as profit implies a certain level of acceptable loss.
I ask the following: If universal health care is the answer, why do people from France, England, and Canada come to the US for treatment if they can afford it?
Shriners Hospital for Children is one of the best in the world...run by donations. Free for patients.
And obviously that is not enough to fix the situation either.
As healthcare is a multibillion dollar industry, I would think the 2 are inextricably linked. Taxes and tax analogs, such as a mandatory universal healthcare payment, universally act as a damper on economic growth.
Hypothetically, Joe Paycheck earns $40k a year, less 30%ish for income taxes, FICA, etc. This leaves him about $31,500 to pay for his day to day expenses, including healthcare. Now let's say Joe has a pretty decent health plan that covers him, Mrs Paycheck, and Jr. Paycheck, and this costs him $750 a month. That takes $9000 of his income, but it provides good quality coverage. Start adding in his mortgage, a car payment, and living expenses, and Joe basically comes out even at the end of the month. Not getting rich, but living the dream.
Now universal healthcare comes along. Joe's employer is faced with a dilemma: reduce the workforce by a number of workers to cover the cost of providing healthcare, or asking his employees to take a pay cut of $9k per year to cover it. Now that $9k is going to not only cover Joe and his family, but his neighbor Tom Slacker's family as well.
Suddenly, the same amount of money is supposed to provide coverage for twice as many people. Either the cost of care must be reduced %50 somehow, or the quality of care will be degraded. Now I'll be the first to agree that the current system is horribly bloated and wasteful, particularly at the administrative levels, but to believe you can provide quality care for half the cost is naive at best.
Now say that Joe's employer takes the other tack, and decides to axe 10% of his work force to cover the cost instead. Now you have more people out of work, but still covered by the system.
I absolutely agree that insurance companies need to have incentives other than profit, as profit implies a certain level of acceptable loss.
I ask the following: If universal health care is the answer, why do people from France, England, and Canada come to the US for treatment if they can afford it?
Joe's employer already knows what Joe is paying that goes back to what Joe is willing to work for in the end. Or are you saying the freemarket won't work? Joe's employer chose to cut back on staff. So either Joe's employer had 10% too many people to begin which means he was not efficient or Joes employer has decided that there is not enough market demand for his goods to justify his previous 10 inefficiency. Now since Joe's employer is choosing to give up his market share, that gives an opportunity for another company to come along and fill the demand that he can not meet. That other company would be playing under the same rules as Joe's employer so the market equals out again. Now Joe's employer can still cut Joe's pay, but Joe can chose to find a new employer who will pay him what he is use to making as his end take home pay to cover his lifes expenses.
People come to America because they can afford to. Its a free country and our country permits them to come here. Come on in, thanks for the cash. It was their freemarket choice to come here. On the flip side there are more Americans today leaving America to get surgery overseas because they cannot afford to here. My ex's mother always gets her dental care over seas because she cannot afford to here. She returns to see family and promptly goes to the dentist. This is because our system is so broken that it does not serve a vast amount of our own citizens. Serving others from other nations is only permitted if they pay out of pocket. Again, thanks for the cash.
Stimulated the economy? Who pays for the illegal 21 yr old that I took care of last week and got a free $30k back surgery? He says he can't work and hasn't worked since age 17? He is putting nothing into the system!
Who decides my wages...the government? Feds step in and will decide MD and RN pay. Ask a Brit RN about their pay... It sucks. Your previous answers suck
IMHO.
Illegals are not US citizens do not confuse the issue or muddy the water. Deal with them separately. Best way to do that is to abolish any company that hires them or to fine any private individual that hires an illegal. No work, no illegals. They walk home on their own dime with that system.
Who decides wages? The employee always does. Because if they can't get someone to work for the wage level they are paying, then they better pay more till they find a worker who is willing to work for that wage level.
As to my previous answers sucking....... so far your reply indicates you can't knock them down. You just called me a name and that shows I win.
Zundfolge
07-25-2011, 17:56
And those charities were failing miserably.
Absolute 110% pure grade bullshit.
Private charities ALWAYS do better than government.
I'm done "arguing" with you ... you're a brainwashed kool-aid drinker not worth my time.
Joe's employer already knows what Joe is paying that goes back to what Joe is willing to work for in the end. Or are you saying the freemarket won't work? Joe's employer chose to cut back on staff. So either Joe's employer had 10% too many people to begin which means he was not efficient or Joes employer has decided that there is not enough market demand for his goods to justify his previous 10 inefficiency. Now since Joe's employer is choosing to give up his market share, that gives an opportunity for another company to come along and fill the demand that he can not meet. That other company would be playing under the same rules as Joe's employer so the market equals out again. Now Joe's employer can still cut Joe's pay, but Joe can chose to find a new employer who will pay him what he is use to making as his end take home pay to cover his lifes expenses.
People come to America because they can afford to. Its a free country and our country permits them to come here. Come on in, thanks for the cash. It was their freemarket choice to come here. On the flip side there are more Americans today leaving America to get surgery overseas because they cannot afford to here. My ex's mother always gets her dental care over seas because she cannot afford to here. She returns to see family and promptly goes to the dentist. This is because our system is so broken that it does not serve a vast amount of our own citizens. Serving others from other nations is only permitted if they pay out of pocket. Again, thanks for the cash.
And the money to cover the administrative costs comes from?
Your supposition that the 10% of the workforce that Joe's employer had to let go was excess fails to recognize that there are such things as seasonal fluctuations, economic fluctuations, and that you can't drive people to work at maximum effort all the time, or they burn out. If you attempt to run a business on the ragged edge of minimum manpower, you make no allowance for sick time, personal days, or vacations. You can't expand your business, or in some cases even keep abreast of current demands.
People who come here for care from other countries do so for one reason: The quality and/or immediacy of the care is significantly better than their money can buy there. Like I said, you can't spread the same resources out over a larger number of people without reducing the quality or quantity of care devoted to each person. Many health care resources are currently finite, so increasing them is not practical.
Never called you a name...learn to read. I said your ideas sucked...so I guess you don't win.
Like to know when "employees" decide wages. Ever heard of minimum wage? Who sets that?
We the people through gov. decide on the base floor for wages or Min Wage. If a company can not follow those base rules then they have no rights to incorporation. Anything after that base point is decided by the worker who is willing to work for that wage level. Workers make those determination by what it costs to live and that is an after tax dollar reality not a pretax dollar one.
As to saying my ideas suck, why don't you step up to the plate more and prove me wrong.
Byte Stryke
07-25-2011, 18:33
20 million illegals aren't going back home- not gonna happen. Who take care/pays the ones here? You want amnesty for the ones already here? Make them citizens? Great. You spout good intentions but we ain't running a damn daisy farm.
That didn't work last time, wont work this time.
just throwing that out there
Address the name calling first- you said I called you a name and I didn't- not nice.
You sure talk pretty Civics 101. Think you need a reality check.
20 million illegals aren't going back home- not gonna happen. Who take care/pays the ones here? You want amnesty for the ones already here? Make them citizens? Great. You spout good intentions but we ain't running a damn daisy farm.
Why don't you work a few years in a hospital and see how bad it is and how bad it is gonna get. The population is growing, baby boomers are demanding care and a new facility is $1 million a bed. Will you take care of everyone including illegals? They will just keep coming. Deny illegals treatment? Pretty mean and Libs will eat you alive.
As to the name calling I apologize for misreading what you wrote. I will try to have better attention to detail in the future.
As to working in a hospital........I have many times over many years in a few different continents and states. Both in uniform and out. I was also working on sept 11th victims that day.
As to Amnesty.... I don't really want to get into that. But I will say that any employer who already breaks the laws by knowingly employing illegals deserves no mercy. Illegals come here because they can find work. Dry up that and they stop coming so fast and so much.
So if you moved to California you vote straight Democrat for your entire time living there right?
most populations outside the major cities are republican and very conservative. maybe you should expand your world a little bit and research some things. But when the major cities are corrupt, more than outnumber the conservatives, the votes and politicians are going to reflect that, just the same as they do in denver and boulder around here.
Why do you guys who are against universal healthcare automatically assume all systems are like Canada or England? We are the only industrialized nation without universal healthcare. There are countless other systems out there to look at too. We have the benefit of being able to learn from all the systems as to what works and what does not. Obamas remedy was horrible in my opinion. He did not change any of the root rot. He only made it worse by forcing Americans to have to buy into the current mess.
Equal rights for gays and abortion rights.... well the real conservative (not religious right position) is to let the individual decide. I agree with people like Barry Goldwater on these issues.
because I fly with guys from multiple countries and all have said the systems from their home countries are much worse, and to get anything taken care of quickly it was at a large out of pocket expense. I will believe the people I fly with and work with above what I read on the internet.
I also work with a lot of gays, and most of them are really good people who don't push their lifestyle and beliefs on you. we see a lot of the extremism from their side on tv or in the news just as they see our baby killing machine gun murderers on the news as well. I honestly don't care what they do as long as they are trying to push their beliefs all over me.
as for abortion rights, I used to lean a bit more toward the left on that issue and be more along side with womens rights. but now with a baby on the way and watching how fast things progress and watching that little person being developed inside a woman, I feel strongly that if an abortion is the decision it needs to be done extremely quick, and prefer it really only in the cases of incest and rape or life threatening to the mother. Just look at pictures of how fast kids develop. You won't have the same connection as if it were your own kid, but hopefully my point is made a little stronger.
Are their systems perfect? Far from it. But at least their system covers all citizens. Ours fails at that miserably.
what about welfare if you are in that situation and section 8 housing and social security and medicare and medicaid and planned parenthood.
sucking on the government tit has got to stop.
somehow these poverty stricken people are able to have the newest cellphones and keep their contracts, designer shoes and clothes, big rims on their cars or brand new trucks while living 10 to a single family home. something tells me their healthcare isn't in their top 5 priorities.
Unions were created to fight against unsafe work conditions. Eventually the government came along with organizations like OSHA and others to regulate working conditions. Now unions only serve to line the pockets of union bosses.
Unions are still a necessary evil. companies want to make money for their investors, owners and shareholders. the workers want the company to succeed but to also make a good wage with good working environment.
I am in a union, and although I hate to give up my dues each month and there is corruption, they are still a necessary evil to protect our labor group from the company and what it would like to do if not for our contract and the national union and government backing as well as arbitration when it gets to that point.
Too much has happened in this thread since I looked at it last night. I've been left behind.
Unions are still a necessary evil. companies want to make money for their investors, owners and shareholders. the workers want the company to succeed but to also make a good wage with good working environment.
I am in a union, and although I hate to give up my dues each month and there is corruption, they are still a necessary evil to protect our labor group from the company and what it would like to do if not for our contract and the national union and government backing as well as arbitration when it gets to that point.
I've never been in a Union in my whole life.
Zundfolge
07-26-2011, 08:37
20 million illegals aren't going back home- not gonna happen.
Actually many of them ARE going home due to the lack of jobs here. So far this is the only positive effect of Obama, Reid and Pilosi's pograms (its unintentional but I guess one should give credit where credit is due :p ).
There's no need to "round 'em up" ... just create an environment where illegals have a harder time finding work (by coming down hard on businesses that knowingly hire them) and you'll find them deciding to go home on their own.
We won't get rid of all of them, but get the numbers down under 10 million and they become significantly less a drag on the system.
I've never been in a Union in my whole life.
Same here ... and I never will either.
Growing up in Wichita Kansas I saw how the Machinists Union stole from the aircraft workers (Boeing, Cessna, Learjet and Hawker-Beechcraft have much of their operations there), made them strike when it suited the union leadership (thus harming the workers even further ... it takes several years for a worker to recover from a strike ... but the union bosses are made richer) and turned honest, decent working people into greedy, lazy, glorified welfare recipients.
Too much has happened in this thread since I looked at it last night. I've been left behind.
Haha, same here.
Actually many of them ARE going home due to the lack of jobs here. So far this is the only positive effect of Obama, Reid and Pilosi's pograms (its unintentional but I guess one should give credit where credit is due :p ).
There's no need to "round 'em up" ... just create an environment where illegals have a harder time finding work (by coming down hard on businesses that knowingly hire them) and you'll find them deciding to go home on their own.
We won't get rid of all of them, but get the numbers down under 10 million and they become significantly less a drag on the system.
...
Growing up in Wichita Kansas I saw how the Machinists Union stole from the aircraft workers (Boeing, Cessna, Learjet and Hawker-Beechcraft have much of their operations there), made them strike when it suited the union leadership (thus harming the workers even further ... it takes several years for a worker to recover from a strike ... but the union bosses are made richer) and turned honest, decent working people into greedy, lazy, glorified welfare recipients.
I agree, I think by making it damn near impossible to find work will force them to leave, but the problem is: so many companies operate under the radar and "appropriate" funding to pay borderjumpers under the table that it all slips through the cracks, even when it comes time for an audit. So what do we do? Create another .gov entity and name it the "Illegal Workforce Enforcement Agency"? Hardly think that will work. It's too often that these cases don't get the attention they deserve, companies are fined- which the owners/managers should realize that if caught they could be forced out of business and just put more people out of work- bad, yes, but employees should report illegal practices, just like if a air bag manufacturer put a bunch of frangible pieces on top of the bag.
Too much has happened in this thread since I looked at it last night. I've been left behind.
Me too.
We never got to hear if the OP banged the whacko chick or not...
Bang her, I am sure she does not have many hangups [Beer]
Byte Stryke
07-26-2011, 14:07
Women are like a tile floor.
Lay it right the first time and you can walk on it for the rest of your life.
[ROFL1]
UberTong
07-26-2011, 14:11
Women are like a tile floor.
Lay it right the first time and you can walk on it for the rest of your life.
[ROFL1]
Holy shit, best I've heard from you yet. [ROFL3][LOL]
flan7211
07-26-2011, 14:12
Women are like a tile floor.
Lay it right the first time and you can walk on it for the rest of your life.
[ROFL1]
That's Grrrreat[LOL]
Women are like a tile floor.
Lay it right the first time and you can walk on it for the rest of your life.
[ROFL1]
OMG! [ROFL1] I about had Dr Pepper come out my nose (somewhat similar to your red bull incident)!
OMG! [ROFL1] I about had Dr Pepper come out my nose (somewhat similar to your red bull incident)!
Who is Dr. Pepper, and why would....er...nevermind DADT...[LOL]
Who is Dr. Pepper, and why would....er...nevermind DADT...[LOL]
[ROFL1] TFOGGER, you crazy!
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