View Full Version : A visualization of the US debt
UberTong
07-28-2011, 10:07
http://www.wtfnoway.com/
n8tive97
07-28-2011, 10:10
Website name says it all..... That's crazy!
http://www.wtfnoway.com/
[Shock]
Wow, what an eye opener. Won't matter, our government will just keep spending and never really balance the budget (by the way, like it was in 2000 under Bush...)
I'll let it speak for itself....
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24editorial_graph2/24editorial_graph2-popup.gif
mcantar18c
07-28-2011, 13:29
Sorry Nynco, but those numbers are complete bullshit, and entirely biased... hell even at a quick glance its obvious that they included Iraq and Afghanistan under Bush, but somehow forgot to put Iraq and Afghanistan spending under Obama as well (which he's done plenty of), not to mention leaving out the entire Libya "thing" that Obama stuck us into.
Later when I have more time I'll post some actual numbers, not the biased bullshit you like to spew. Funny thing, you really don't need to manipulate any stats or have any bias to see how much more Obama is fucking us... the plain, untouched numbers are obvious enough.
ETA: I also like how Bush's tax cuts are called "Bush tax cuts" (all his fault right?) but Obummer's are listed as "Stimulus tax cuts" (no blame for The One I guess).
I blame Obama just as much as Bush. I also blame Reagan, Bush 1, Partially Clinton (even though I hate him for other reasons) and then Bush 2.
I blame the whole system of trickle down economics.
I am consistent, I blame both parties and the root causes. Do you?
Nynco, please stop using any thread that gives you some excuse to inject your beliefs as your personal soapbox to preach the word, would you? This was a graphic depicting piles of money and you make sure you put up a graphic (probably from questionable sources) that illustrates your beliefs. Really, man, it's getting REALLY old, REALLY fast.
Nynco, please stop using any thread that gives you some excuse to inject your beliefs as your personal soapbox to preach the word, would you? This was a graphic depicting piles of money and you make sure you put up a graphic (probably from questionable sources) that illustrates your beliefs. Really, man, it's getting REALLY old, REALLY fast.
Yeah, thank goodness it's only Nynco doing this and this part of the board isn't littered with people preaching their personal beliefs :D
CrufflerSteve
07-28-2011, 13:47
It is titled 'New Costs'. Sustaining existing programs is huge but that's not what this is about. Calling statistics bullshit is like noticing that shit smells bad. 'Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics' and all that. I used to be a Republican but switched to independent in 2003 since I was so appalled by that fucktard Bush and his Congress. They worked really hard to make RINO a BS term with their fiscal irresponsibility and trampling of freedoms. I was hoping Obama might change some things but he's just been worse on every count.
One new cost that neither party likes to talk about is how the Fed became the private ATM for Wall Street. It started under Bush but Obama has gone off the deep end with it.
I'll bet any opposing statistics will just show another bias.
Steve
Nynco, please stop using any thread that gives you some excuse to inject your beliefs as your personal soapbox to preach the word, would you? This was a graphic depicting piles of money and you make sure you put up a graphic (probably from questionable sources) that illustrates your beliefs. Really, man, it's getting REALLY old, REALLY fast.
So its OK for you to start a thread to inject your personal beliefs but not ok for me to reply? It may be just a picture of money. But if you think that was not about politics, then you are being dishonest to yourself.
So why get so pissed at me? Because I remind you of the inconvenient truth. I never once defended Obama on this. You guys jumped there. I just posted the path to how we got here and gave a cross reference to your other visualization of money.
I personally think your anger at anyone not singin in the choir you guys preach to, is the issue you have with me.
tmleadr03
07-28-2011, 13:51
I'll let it speak for itself....
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24editorial_graph2/24editorial_graph2-popup.gif
Biased graph is biased.
I blame Obama just as much as Bush. I also blame Reagan, Bush 1, Partially Clinton (even though I hate him for other reasons) and then Bush 2.
I blame the whole system of trickle down economics.
I am consistent, I blame both parties and the root causes. Do you?
That goes totally against your original post. You put up (obviously made up) figures depicting how Obama has spent significantly less than bush (including "projections") but then you say you blame Obama as much as Bush. I call a spade a spade here and I call bullshit on your little hypocritical comments.
I posted a graph Ronin.... it shows what Bush spent. You all then turn on me like I am trying to defend Obama. Why do you all do this because its easier to attack another than it is to admit that both sides have issues.
Fuck Obama, he is doing the same shit as Bush, but worse.
So the question is why are people excusing the last 30 years of this CRAP?
Here have a historical context picture.... does this put your money visualization in context?
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/usgs_line.php?title=Gross%20Public%20Debt&year=1900_2016&sname=US&units=p&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&col=c&spending0=10.37_9.62_8.97_8.49_8.81_7.90_7.53_7.26 _8.72_8.20_7.94_8.06_7.67_7.46_7.98_7.91_7.27_9.58 _19.25_34.98_29.36_32.58_31.27_26.17_24.44_22.65_2 0.26_19.38_18.08_16.34_17.75_21.96_33.20_39.96_40. 99_39.16_40.31_39.64_43.16_43.86_50.00_45.41_48.92 _71.83_92.85_116.65_121.96_105.35_93.66_94.54_87.4 5_75.24_72.31_70.12_71.19_66.16_62.34_59.04_59.86_ 56.74_55.19_53.72_51.72_50.23_47.63_44.82_41.70_40 .90_40.52_37.16_36.69_36.22_35.22_33.73_32.27_33.0 9_34.47_34.80_33.86_32.37_32.60_31.82_34.96_38.81_ 39.80_43.09_47.54_49.53_51.00_52.31_55.28_60.05_63 .10_65.26_65.54_66.36_66.10_64.44_62.30_59.93_56.5 6_56.09_58.24_60.67_61.97_62.55_63.07_63.65_69.50_ 84.11_92.28_102.63_105.32_105.96_105.51_105.17_105 .23&legend=&source=a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a _a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a _a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a _a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a _a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_e_e_e_e_e_e
68Charger
07-28-2011, 14:06
Don't feed the troll... just do this:
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/Lunyfringe/ignorenynco.jpg
tmleadr03
07-28-2011, 14:08
Don't feed the troll... just do this:
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/Lunyfringe/ignorenynco.jpg
My lord. I did not realize this site had that. [Beer]
tmleadr03
07-28-2011, 14:09
Much better.
Rather pathetic when all you can do is just stick your fingers in your ear. How am I a troll? Only because I am singing a different tune in your choir?
68Charger
07-28-2011, 14:09
I don't use it often (obviously), but some just troll with/for inflammatory comments, and just aren't worth my time... makes some threads LOTS shorter...
Sorry, couldn't hear you....
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/Lunyfringe/nyncoignored.jpg
Yea, I did that a few days ago but thought I would give it a chance. Oh well, time to revert back. Joins a short list of people I just have no interest in reading on this site who are also on that list.
Yeah, thank goodness it's only Nynco doing this and this part of the board isn't littered with people preaching their personal beliefs :D
I was stating that the last time we had a balance budget was in 2000. Sorry, did I upset your fragile sensibilities? [Tooth]
My post was ON TOPIC and not some rant on political posturing, as in we haven't had a balanced budget in 11 years - oh and gee, Bush was president for 8 of them, my oh my didn't I just jump on my soapbox and scream how great conservatives are? I was no lover of W, but I'm not going to blame him for every problem we have now. So, no, unless it's on topic and/or related to someone else's post I try not to hijack a thread to preach my own beliefs. [Bang]
I was stating that the last time we had a balance budget was in 2000. Sorry, did I upset your fragile sensibilities? [Tooth]
My post was ON TOPIC and not some rant on political posturing, as in we haven't had a balanced budget in 11 years - oh and gee, Bush was president for 8 of them, my oh my didn't I just jump on my soapbox and scream how great conservatives are? I was no lover of W, but I'm not going to blame him for every problem we have now. So, no, unless it's on topic and/or related to someone else's post I try not to hijack a thread to preach my own beliefs. [Bang]
So why jump on me? Mainly because you have a hate for liberals and have assigned me to that hate position in your mind. All I did was post a graph about our spending over the last 10 years. I never defended Obama.
Basically, as the movie said before - "you can't handle the truth."
So you attack me. I'm not tryin to make enemies here. But you guys need to thicken up your skin.
Sorry, Nynco, did you say something? :)
I blame Obama just as much as Bush. I also blame Reagan, Bush 1, Partially Clinton (even though I hate him for other reasons) and then Bush 2.
I blame the whole system of trickle down economics.
I am consistent, I blame both parties and the root causes. Do you?
Perhaps you prefer trickle up economics. Let’s give all the investment capital to welfare recipients. They are the seed of innovation bringing new goods and services to market; I know I will find a job under this model. There is absolutely no way they will spend it all on meth! In fact I think we should give this a shot, roll the dice, and see what happens.
If this doesn’t work, maybe we could have a national day of Star Trek; you know, learn how to only work for the purpose of bettering ourselves and humanity. There are no criminals…just misunderstood people who didn’t fairly get their shot. There are no lazy people…just people who didn’t get an opportunity to actualize their dreams. We just need to come together and not be so darn individualistic! John Locke absolutely had no idea what he was talking about!
I was stating that the last time we had a balance budget was in 2000. Sorry, did I upset your fragile sensibilities? [Tooth]
My post was ON TOPIC and not some rant on political posturing, as in we haven't had a balanced budget in 11 years - oh and gee, Bush was president for 8 of them, my oh my didn't I just jump on my soapbox and scream how great conservatives are? I was no lover of W, but I'm not going to blame him for every problem we have now. So, no, unless it's on topic and/or related to someone else's post I try not to hijack a thread to preach my own beliefs. [Bang]
I wasn't just referring to you. We all do it. But you're acting like nynco is trolling the board (which by most definitions of the word he isn't) by taking a position you don't agree with. Whose fragile sensibilities are really being upset here?
The fact is, unless I'm completely mistaken as to the purpose of this site, this is a board for people who live in Colorado and enjoy shooting and owning guns. Yes, most of us are conservative/right wing, but I don't remember anywhere in the sign up process being told I should keep my opinions to myself.
Until baileyguns gets his way and no one to the left of him is allowed to own, talk about or think about guns, you are going to find this this great pastime of ours attracts all sorts of people to it.
Perhaps you prefer trickle up economics. Let’s give all the investment capital to welfare recipients. They are the seed of innovation bringing new goods and services to market; I know I will find a job under this model. There is absolutely no way they will spend it all on meth! In fact I think we should give this a shot, roll the dice, and see what happens.
If this doesn’t work, maybe we could have a national day of Star Trek; you know, learn how to only work for the purpose of bettering ourselves and humanity. There are no criminals…just misunderstood people who didn’t fairly get their shot. There are no lazy people…just people who didn’t get an opportunity to actualize their dreams. We just need to come together and not be so darn individualistic! John Locke absolutely had no idea what he was talking about!
Nah I don't want to give everything to welfare. There is entirely too much black and white on this issue. May I suggest you look at some of the works criticizing Supply side economics. All economies from the dawn of time have worked on a balance of supply and demand. If you favor the supplies alone and neglect demand....... you get todays market.
30 years of supply side economics, the only way we could keep it going this long was by DEBT.
Nah I don't want to give everything to welfare. There is entirely too much black and white on this issue. May I suggest you look at some of the works criticizing Supply side economics. All economies from the dawn of time have worked on a balance of supply and demand. If you favor the supplies alone and neglect demand....... you get todays market.
30 years of supply side economics, the only way we could keep it going this long was by DEBT.
I am just messing with you [Coffee]
I am just messing with you [Coffee]
All good, I got a thick skin[Beer]
Don't feed the troll... just do this:
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/Lunyfringe/ignorenynco.jpg
WOW that's cool I didn't know that! Done! Thanks Charger [Beer]
I would say give less to welfare, if not just completely rework it. Too much abuse. We have a bad credit card bill that is over due as a country and it seems like no one in Washington wants to stop spending. What happens when we collapse like the Soviet Union? How bad can it be when we can't afford to pay our armed forces?
This blaming Bush thing is pretty tired. We're what? 2 years into Obama's administration, that's more than enough time to erase the policies and practices of the previous CIC. So what does Barry do? Well he got the job while we were in a hole, and he just whipped out that shovel and kept on diggin'! I pray for those who want to re-elect him... Because I surely don't know what windows taste like.
hollohas
07-28-2011, 14:51
I'll let it speak for itself....
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24editorial_graph2/24editorial_graph2-popup.gif
The original post didn't mention any presidents that I saw...why immediately jump to a comparison?
The point is we're in a shit load of debt. The government fucked us.
The original post didn't mention any presidents that I saw...why immediately jump to a comparison?
The point is we're in a shit load of debt. The government fucked us.
Yup. [Beer]
UberTong
07-28-2011, 14:54
Staglefty said it best in MtnMans letter post:
"The sad part is that us every day folks have had to make some pretty major budget adjustments this past year or 2. Why in the hell can't they do the same ? I see no sacrifices being made by the people who are supposed to be representing us. It seems that egos and self interests are running the country's finances instead of common sense. Excuse the rant it's just that this whole subject just gets to me" -Staglefty
My wife and I have made serious adjustments in the last few years and we will be 100% debt free in October this year. We made many sacrifices, changed our lifestyle and paid our debts on time. Why can't the feds? And no, I don't want a long drawn out answer from a libtard on this one, simple answer...get your shit together Washington, we all do it.
WOW that's cool I didn't know that! Done! Thanks Charger [Beer]
By the way, the easier way is just to click on their avatar, which takes you to their profile, then click the 'add to ignore list' that's in the blue header above their name.
68Charger
07-28-2011, 14:58
I wasn't just referring to you. We all do it. But you're acting like nynco is trolling the board (which by most definitions of the word he isn't) by taking a position you don't agree with. Whose fragile sensibilities are really being upset here?
by using the word most, you've implied that by >some< definitions he is [Coffee]
while I'm not sure if this is directed at me, I'm certainly not upset- I've been upset before, but I'm not angry or upset at anyone at the moment, just choosing to invoke a feature of the board.
The fact is, unless I'm completely mistaken as to the purpose of this site, this is a board for people who live in Colorado and enjoy shooting and owning guns. Yes, most of us are conservative/right wing, but I don't remember anywhere in the sign up process being told I should keep my opinions to myself.
Everyone is entitled to opinions, and the 1st amendment protects your right to share them... We also have the right to use the ignore button.
maybe I'll lift the ignore at some point- but for now I've seen one too many instances of what appears to be deliberately inflammatory posts for me to bother. Things are crappy at work, so maybe I'm just short on patience right now... I consider it a safeguard against becoming upset.[Flower]
Until baileyguns gets his way and no one to the left of him is allowed to own, talk about or think about guns, you are going to find this this great pastime of ours attracts all sorts of people to it.
I would also defend and protect nynco's (and even ERNO's) right to keep and bear arms- but it doesn't mean I have to listen to them.
I wasn't just referring to you. We all do it. But you're acting like nynco is trolling the board (which by most definitions of the word he isn't) by taking a position you don't agree with. Whose fragile sensibilities are really being upset here?
The fact is, unless I'm completely mistaken as to the purpose of this site, this is a board for people who live in Colorado and enjoy shooting and owning guns. Yes, most of us are conservative/right wing, but I don't remember anywhere in the sign up process being told I should keep my opinions to myself.
Point taken. I will say in my own defense, though, that it seems that Nynco does pounce on every opportunity to post his "facts and figures", so in a way he is trolling. Whatever, you are right, this is not a political board it is a gun board but it's also a community where like minded people talk about all kinds of topics. I don't agree with a lot of what you have posted either - but it is healthy debate and banter rather than you trying to spread the word of your righteousness. The one good thing that Nynco DID do is start a thread for his debate rather than hijacking another one - I'll give him that.
So, for BOTH of our fragile sensibilities: [Beer]
Why mention past presidents?
Because if you don't learn from your past, you are doomed to repeat it. We have been repeating this BS since the 80's. Time we swallow our pride and look at why we got here.
hollohas
07-28-2011, 15:38
Why mention past presidents?
Because if you don't learn from your past, you are doomed to repeat it. We have been repeating this BS since the 80's. Time we swallow our pride and look at why we got here.
I asked why the comparison...
And I'll add, why immediately of those particular two?
I asked why the comparison...
And I'll add, why immediately of those particular two?
I just chose the graph I most recently saw in an article I read. I think this problem goes way back. I also think that doing more of the same garbage we have been doing for the last 30 years is just going to give more of the same results.
Sounds like you have Reagan derangement syndrome there NYNCO.
Blaming everything on the policies of the 80's.
IT'S ALL REAGAN'S FAULT! HE STARTED THIS MESS!
[Ignore]
Carter did worse for this economy than Reagan could ever dream of. And Clinton and Obummer are following in Carter's foot steps.
Also, one more thing, FDR's economic policies were wreckless and disastrous.
You are correct Carter drank the free market Koolaid during the last 1 year of his administration. You may not like the fact that I bring up Reagan being the issue. But it is the economic philosophy that started with Reagan and no one since him has done any different. Only a few have done it to less of an extreme. I don't like this never ending Dept problem either. But for the life of me, I can't figure out why people can't put all the pieces of the puzzle together.
That's why Reagan had the largest peacetime economic growth of any president in history. You really need to pick a different talking point.
We are talking about debt here. I would have the best time market expansion in the world for my household if I had a 3 trillion dollar credit card bill I could make someone else pay off too.
Why mention past presidents?
Because if you don't learn from your past, you are doomed to repeat it. We have been repeating this BS since the 80's. Time we swallow our pride and look at why we got here.
Broken record here... seriously, were the 80's so bad that you repeatedly have to say so? You act like Reagan was the worst thing to ever happen to America, but thanks to him the cold war ended without turning hot, American's were more proud to be American than the 60's and 70's, and I think he was a pretty damn good Conservative CIC. But maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture. Did Ronald Reagan like run over your dog when you were little or something? This animosity makes you come off as one of those really-angry-but-is-just-talk liberals.
No I think that Reagans policies and reforms set the stage for today. What Reagan started......... the EXPLOSION of our nation debt. And since his presidency the middle class has steadily lost ground. The economy did do better for some people but those economic gains stayed at the top. Today the middle class is about to go under and our debt is so bad that our gov might default. So when did that garbage start and why? Bush was Reaganomics on steroids and Obama is now Bushes 3rd term.
This whole thing of left and right is a bunch of BS.
No I think that Reagan's policies and reforms set the stage for today. What Reagan started......... the EXPLOSION of our nation debt. And since his presidency the middle class has steadily lost ground. The economy did do better for some people but those economic gains stayed at the top. Today the middle class is about to go under and our debt is so bad that our gov might default. So when did that garbage start and why? Bush was Reaganomics on steroids and Obama is now Bushes 3rd term.
This whole thing of left and right is a bunch of BS.
Exactly how old are you? Did you live in the 70s? …because stagflation pretty much sucked! I heard all the deficit talk in the 80s, and it comes down to this. Our elected officials need to control their spending and set priorities, and the electorate must understand that there isn’t an endless supply of cash to pay for their crap. A balanced budget requirement is the only way to fix this problem. However, I have no faith that the electorate will reduce their demand for programs and services. If this is the case, it really matters very little on the economic philosophy; the country will crush under the weight.
If you think that raising taxes on those with capital and legislating more restrictive regulation is the road to prosperity, your nuts! The first time I heard that, I about wet myself laughing as it is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If the 70s are good for you, then by all means go down that road; however, I have no desire to go with you. Redistribution through entitlement spending destroys capital investment. I am not talking about Davis Bacon Prevailing Wage over-priced road project crap nor TVA or BPA. I am talking about the innovation and marketing of goods and services…this is where job creation happens.
Honestly, I don’t know where you get this middle class is going away stuff (sounds like something you heard in one of our "fine" institutions). The 80s and 90s, even the 2000s were a dream compared to what my parents went through in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. When my father was discharged from the Army in 1946, yes he is a WWII vet, he lived in a shack about 10x10 with a wood stove working civil service at Lowry Field. It wasn’t until your most hated 80s that his business exploded and he built a pretty good life and retirement. There are a multitude of opportunities out there for those that went to school and developed their skills, or had the business sense to build something good.
Here are the top problems with our Government Philosophy:
Federalization…We have states for a reason; everything is not a federal issue.
No Priorities…If somebody thinks it’s a good idea, we spend money on it; I would lose my home and all that I have if I did that.
No Balanced Budget…We need to decide what CAN be done and focus on what is affordable.
No Population Control…we need to control entrance into this country based on NEED (as in this nation state’s need) not the needs of political correctness.
Globalization…In small doses its good; but it has run amuck killing jobs that can’t be replaced.When it comes to Reagan, I lived in the 70s. This nation was falling apart both in the economy and its identity. People went back to work in the 80s, and most importantly they took pride in the nation again. Reagan was able to get pretty big defense appropriations, and that turned out really well. I remember going back to Germany in the mid 80s, and I couldn’t see the Eastern part…not so today. The Soviets were brought to their knees because they couldn’t handle the arms race…it worked! When the wall came down, it meant a lot to me. It meant a lot to my friends (refugees) from Latvia too!
I haven't read this thread, or any of the others that have been trashed, but sooner or later, some of you guys are going to have to recognize that Bush wasn't a very good president.
I think its rather short sighted to say that I want to return to the 70's but its a convenient way to ignore other things. So its to be expected. But at least you acknowledge other decades. Fact is the US middle class expanded from 1940 till the 1980s. Once the 80's came about, well the middle class began to shrank and our debt went to hell ever since. We stopped manufacturing in this nation. The portion of wallstreet earnings per GDP in the economy went from less 7% to today's amount of +20%. Manufacturing went in exactly the opposite dirrection. Good so you think Reagan fixed some stuff. Well to point out the obvious our economy is now paying for his short sighted gains. Why the heck you supposed fiscal conservatives glorify the guy who more than tripled our national debt and started the trend of off shoring middle class jobs ins beyond me. But to think that doing more of the same of Reagans garbage and expecting a different result other than more loss of middle class jobs and deficits is bordering on crazy.
You can't build a long term healthy economy through investing alone. You must build something.
Lord help this nation if China decides to go to war with us. They manufacture everything we need to fight them with.
Byte Stryke
07-28-2011, 19:22
Lord help this nation if China decides to go to war with us. They manufacture everything we need to fight them with.
HA!
Jokes on them... they'd have to pay for both sides!
[ROFL1]
HA!
Jokes on them... they'd have to pay for both sides!
[ROFL1]
Byte strike...... ironically true.
But to add to that, all war is economics. It is the measure of how much a country can produce both in man power and machinery. China is building their economy by draining ours. In my opinion as a way to soften us up. Why we have free trade with a communist dictatorship country is beyond me. Esp when it has gone so far as to weaken our nation. Its like watching Benedict Arnold actions in slow motion.
Byte Stryke
07-28-2011, 19:31
Byte strike...... ironically true.
But to add to that, all war is economics. It is the measure of how much a country can produce both in man power and machinery. China is building their economy by draining ours. In my opinion as a way to soften us up. Why we have free trade with a communist dictatorship country is beyond me. Esp when it has gone so far as to weaken our nation. Its like watching Benedict Arnold actions in slow motion.
Mexico has been attacking us for years, as has Japan, China and Europe.
Ikea is like a Huge Euro-Bomber....
I think its rather short sighted to say that I want to return to the 70's but its a convenient way to ignore other things. So its to be expected. But at least you acknowledge other decades. Fact is the US middle class expanded from 1940 till the 1980s. Once the 80's came about, well the middle class began to shrank and our debt went to hell ever since. We stopped manufacturing in this nation. The portion of wallstreet earnings per GDP in the economy went from less 7% to today's amount of +20%. Manufacturing went in exactly the opposite dirrection. Good so you think Reagan fixed some stuff. Well to point out the obvious our economy is now paying for his short sighted gains. Why the heck you supposed fiscal conservatives glorify the guy who more than tripled our national debt and started the trend of off shoring middle class jobs ins beyond me. But to think that doing more of the same of Reagans garbage and expecting a different result other than more loss of middle class jobs and deficits is bordering on crazy.
You can't build a long term healthy economy through investing alone. You must build something.
Lord help this nation if China decides to go to war with us. They manufacture everything we need to fight them with.
So, when you say that the US is losing its middle class, you are in fact talking about the industrial sector blue collar vs. white collar. The loss of the industrial sector goes far beyond the time I want to put into this forum, so I am not! However, it is a two sided coin. If you are a steal worker or an auto worker who demands high pay, then the goods will cost more. If the goods cost more, then people will buy fewer of them, which requires fewer workers and a lot of layoffs. Or, in the case of the big three, workers were laid off and the quality of components was cheapened to stay competitive. You probably don’t want to get into Unions, but they priced themselves out of the market; business went elsewhere. If you want all your goods that you purchase to be union wage manufactured in the USA, then you better be willing to have a lot less and mostly one income households similar to the 50s and 60s. Life costs way too much to live how they lived back then without a major change in today’s standard of living. When you look at whatever numbers you are looking at, you better look at the difference in the standard of living plus the increase in population in terms of competitiveness. Personally, I just talk to my dad…it wasn’t that great.
You can increase tariffs and eliminate free trade, but that has consequences.
Personally, I am willing to look at multinationals who office out of the country…this is not a good business practice.
By the way; what kind of car do you drive?
Mexico has been attacking us for years, as has Japan, China and Europe.
Ikea is like a Huge Euro-Bomber....
All war is economics in the end. Remember that and things make more sense.
Gotta buy bullets, guns and pay soldiers.... economics
Med it does not matter one bit how good or any other factors are. If a US worker has to compete on the same level playing ground with a 3rd world nation living in mud huts who have prisoners doing manufacture....... we lose.
Have you ever been overseas to personally see these supposed "prisoners" working in mud huts? I think that situation is more rare than you seem to believe.
Med it does not matter one bit how good or any other factors are. If a US worker has to compete on the same level playing ground with a 3rd world nation living in mud huts who have prisoners doing manufacture....... we lose.
You also need to look at the middle class in a different way than manufacturing; and whatever numbers you are looking at are completely skewed if you don’t.
I am a professionally educated technologist…I am middle class. My sister is a semi-retired rancher…she and her husband are middle class. My niece and her husband are doctors…they are middle class. All three of us have totally different income brackets, but we are all middle class and it has absolutely nothing to do with manufacturing jobs. I bet the thousands upon thousands of people that frustrate me going to work every day on Colorado’s roads are middle class, and most of their jobs have absolutely nothing to do with manufacturing. In the 1950s, a guy could marry his high school sweetheart, get a machinist job, buy a house for a few thousand, buy a car for a few hundred, and live the dream; which was a far cry from the soup lines in the 1930s or watching their friends get blown up in the 1940s. Life is a little more complicated today, and it has absolutely nothing to do with economics, Reagan, Clinton, Bush, or Obama. Your middle class is getting smaller comments do not compare apples to apples based on the standard of living between the 1950s and today. The costs of technology and today’s standard of living compounded by inflation require far more education for higher paying jobs; lower income households, I am sure, struggle. If you have a problem with this, then you are really proposing a lower standard of living for everyone.
Have you ever been overseas to personally see these supposed "prisoners" working in mud huts? I think that situation is more rare than you seem to believe.
So far, he has not answered any of my questions in two threads. I am curious about the age; what he/she has actually seen and experienced.
I am also curious about what kind of car this person drives. If he drives anything but a Ford, Dodge, or Chevy; I would be greatly disappointed. Heck, I even do that...[Tooth]
the country's wild borrowing spree and its excessive consumer spending have long masked the fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans derived almost no benefit from 30 years of economic growth. In 1978, the average per capita income for men in the United States was $45,879 (about €35,570). The same figure for 2007, adjusted for inflation, was $45,113 (€35,051).
Where did all the money go? All the enormous market gains and corporate earnings, the profits from the boom in the financial markets and the 110-percent increase in the gross national product in the last 30 years? It went to those who had always had more than enough already.
While 90 percent of Americans have seen only modest gains in their incomes since 1973, incomes have almost tripled for people at the upper end of the scale. In 1979, one third of the profits the country produced went to the richest 1 percent of American society. Today it's almost 60 percent. In 1950, the average corporate CEO earned 30 times as much as an ordinary worker. Today it's 300 times as much. And today 1 percent of Americans own 37 percent of the total national wealth.
Income inequality in the United States is greater today than it has been since the 1920s, except that hardly anyone has minded until now.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,712496,00.html
And all that time cost of living has skyrocketed. Lord knows Medical costs have skyrocketed. But hey carry on..... All is well.
Have you ever been overseas to personally see these supposed "prisoners" working in mud huts? I think that situation is more rare than you seem to believe.
Here read away. Notice this from someone on the right. I picked that so some of you people who refuse to listen to the left will read this.
Red Chinese Slave Labor Floods NAFTA Marketplace With Cheap Goods
by Jerome R. Corsi
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=yes&id=16577
+1
Now, more of intl' finance, and trade are taking bigger variables than when we were in 80s.
I just don't want our economy to get into 2-3decades of recession just like Japan has.
Their debt is approx 2x more than their GDP?
No I think that Reagans policies and reforms set the stage for today. What Reagan started......... the EXPLOSION of our nation debt. And since his presidency the middle class has steadily lost ground. The economy did do better for some people but those economic gains stayed at the top. Today the middle class is about to go under and our debt is so bad that our gov might default. So when did that garbage start and why? Bush was Reaganomics on steroids and Obama is now Bushes 3rd term.
This whole thing of left and right is a bunch of BS.
stevelkinevil
07-29-2011, 03:48
Again, RON PAUL. may be too late but its the best shot we have.
Again, RON PAUL. may be too late but its the best shot we have.
The problem is that if his idea is not popular with the other elites then it won't matter anyway since he cannot just pass something on his own and he's been abrasive enough towards other politicians that I doubt he has the popularity to pull it off.
I want to suggest to the mods to make nynco's title permanently be "Side-Stepper" because I'm not seeing some questions answered...
Exactly how old are you? Did you live in the 70s?
By the way; what kind of car do you drive?
I'm quite curious. I was too young to really be informed on it, and really up until recently didn't really pay attention, but from what I learned in school (econ) I distinctly remember a Liberal teacher saying:
Reaganomics is the model of economics to strive for. Economic growth and prosperity were at an all-time high during Reagan's administration.
And since I couldn't have said it any better:
That's why Reagan had the largest peacetime economic growth of any president in history. You really need to pick a different talking point.
Just asked my dad, how was Reagan's economic policy? Answer: Great! As small business owners he and his father enjoyed rapid growth for the company during the 1980's... the 90's were great too. I like to consider myself as middle class and I'm still here, standing tall. So what's this talk about the Middle class going away because of Reagan? Since I was too young I didn't really know much about Reagan until my political awakening in High School (the age when politics suddenly mattered as much as partying and getting laid) and he was one of my favorites because of the GOOD he did for America. I'm sorry if Reagan ran over your dog nynco, but don't slander him because you hated his movies or whatever your motivation is for saying he ruined our country. I feel his policies were spot on and he kept us from living under a mushroom cloud... I feel Bush did the exact same thing (the mushroom cloud bit). I'm willing to bet you're a Jimmy Carter fan...
I'm sorry, but I don't feel like giving out all my personal info on a board. I drive used cars. Any car I find a good deal on where I can buy it way under valued to resell later I do. Some cars I have bought, drove for a year and resold for a profit. As to American or not, its used.
As to your liberal teacher.... who cares. For one its hearsay on your part. How do you want me to reply. "Well you tell that guy you know who knows a liberal teacher whose mother said that the 80s rocked"
I posted an article showing that Reaganomics failed. It has hard numbers on a macro level. If you don't understand that your personal friends are micro level, then read a little about the difference.
As to Reagan being the largest peace time growth.... sorry that was Clinton. But Reagan did turn around some of his crap storm when he raised taxes after he went too far. The economy boomed for the upper classes. The rest of us got the shaft. It did not trickle down when looked at as a national average. In fact all we had to show for a gain was the rich getting really rich and the debt going to hell.
I started reading news papers at age 10 not the comics either. Sports bored me unless I was playing them. The real stuff was that mattered was in news.
As to being a Jimmy Carter fan.... nah, but you wish
Med, Ronin, as you both mentioned class perhaps you could answer me a question. I'm from England, where social class is firmly tied into occupation. I had a middle class upbringing because my father was a white collar worker, well paid, he owned his own home, owned two cars, we took foreign holidays and I went to a grammar school.
Over here though, it seems like everyone considers themselves middle class. I hear politicians and talking heads talk about the middle class constantly, but no one mentions a working class, almost as if one doesn't exist. No offence intended to you at all, Med, but when you mentioned your family and their occupations, your niece the doctor would probably be the only one considered middle class in the UK, so how is social class determined here?
Med, Ronin, as you both mentioned class perhaps you could answer me a question. I'm from England, where social class is firmly tied into occupation. I had a middle class upbringing because my father was a white collar worker, well paid, he owned his own home, owned two cars, we took foreign holidays and I went to a grammar school.
Over here though, it seems like everyone considers themselves middle class. I hear politicians and talking heads talk about the middle class constantly, but no one mentions a working class, almost as if one doesn't exist. No offence intended to you at all, Med, but when you mentioned your family and their occupations, your niece the doctor would probably be the only one considered middle class in the UK, so how is social class determined here?
Jake hit the nail on the head. Americans don't know what middle class is anymore. Let me make it simple....
your middle class if you can survive a year without a job and still not lose everything. Your working class if live paycheck to paycheck.
Your middle class if you can afford to have health insurance and send your kids to college. Your working class if you can't do either.
Basically America does not get it yet. They lie to themselves to make it not seem so bad.
so how is social class determined here?
Often times working class is the place between lower class and middle class but it can also bleed into either of those two as being either lower class or middle class.
68Charger
07-29-2011, 13:32
I hear politicians and talking heads talk about the middle class constantly, but no one mentions a working class, almost as if one doesn't exist.
That's because much of the working class isn't working right now[Peep]
Another rarity, I'm inclined to agree with nynco on the classes (all except the middle class couldn't survive a year without a job). I grew up middle class for sure, my family has a membership to a golf club, my parents could afford to send me and my brother to college (until Uncle Sam offered to pay my way instead), and we can afford nice things. Sure the economy is affecting our business (but it's insurance and that's pretty much recession proof since law requires it) but not to the degree where it stops us from living comfortably. We've made sacrifices and back to the original point (and let's stop beating the dead horse about how much nynco hates Reagan) that our government is trying to still eat prime rib on a Taco Bell budget. Too high of unemployment and banks recovering from their stupidity and BHO thinks throwing .gov money at the problem will fix it. Sure the sins of the past are haunting us but the current leadership is not helping the situation, and that I think is the point of this thread- not what .gov did years ago (the old adage "quit living in the past"), but what it isn't doing right now to fix it. You can't rewrite history but you can today decide what history will say later.
Often times working class is the place between lower class and middle class but it can also bleed into either of those two as being either lower class or middle class.
Ok, so what's lower class? Living on welfare? Working in a fast food restaurant? Something like that?
And is there an upper class?
Ok, so what's lower class? Living on welfare? Working in a fast food restaurant? Something like that?
And is there an upper class?
People in America think Drs are upper class[ROFL1] More like upper middle.
I think the problem is people can't comprehend how big the wealth disparity is for the average American compared to a hedgefund manager (who only pays 15% max on his billion in earnings.)
HBARleatherneck
07-29-2011, 14:03
so, do rich people use more government services than poor people?
of course they dont, but they are expected to pay more in.
they have private doctors, private security, gated communities.
we have free healthcare, cops, public streets.
so poor people use more and pay nothing most of the time.
why should the rich pay more?
and I am very poor.
Med, Ronin, as you both mentioned class perhaps you could answer me a question. I'm from England, where social class is firmly tied into occupation. I had a middle class upbringing because my father was a white collar worker, well paid, he owned his own home, owned two cars, we took foreign holidays and I went to a grammar school.
Over here though, it seems like everyone considers themselves middle class. I hear politicians and talking heads talk about the middle class constantly, but no one mentions a working class, almost as if one doesn't exist. No offence intended to you at all, Med, but when you mentioned your family and their occupations, your niece the doctor would probably be the only one considered middle class in the UK, so how is social class determined here?
Busy as all can get today….
Your class question is a long topic of conversation in the United States. In this country, class is not really important to people as it relates to status or family history (social class as you define it); people move between groups from below the poverty level to upper class and back down again depending on what they accomplish. For instance I have two nephews who will live very different lives. One nephew screwed up and didn’t finish high school so he moves from one minimum wage job to the next and he will spend his life at the poverty level. I have another nephew who busted his butt to get a scholarship and who currently has a 4.0 at the School of Mines. He will likely be upper middle class and live really really well.
The middle class is generally composed of two groups. The upper middle class generally but not always consists of educated professionals that make pretty good money like doctors, attorneys, engineers, etc. The lower middle class are generally skilled tradesmen and lower paid professionals. For instance, I hold advanced degrees and I am an officer of an organization where my sister is an uneducated land owner but well off from the value of the land she owns so we both have a similar standard of living so we are very much of the same class. To define something that is fluid is pretty difficult since the household is also a consideration where there may be a high income earner and a low income earner. I don’t define myself by class; I just do what I do while educating myself so that I live the life I want. It is pretty hard to live an upper middle class life without an education; high school grad tradesmen jobs don’t pay all that well, and I sure wouldn’t want to support a family that way. In a lot of ways, IT is the new blue collar profession.
There are some other responses that I want to make to a couple of posts, but I don’t have time right now.
http://www.wtfnoway.com/
Getting back to the post that started this thread, it'd seem to be a good idea for every network to run that series of images so that those who watch TV could get an idea of the hole our leaders (from both parties) have dug for us.
I think finger pointing as to which administration got us this far on the credit card is somewhat pointless though. For those on the Right, Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times during his time in office. For those on the Left, Obama has largely failed at most everything he proposed to do and for those that haven't seen that, please schedule an appointment with your eye doctor. There's plenty of blame to go around and arguing about who did it doesn't pay off $1 of the debt.
I'm very happy I don't have any kids that will see what this country looks like 50 years from now as our elected officials don't seem even slightly concerned about the mess we're in as long as they can tell their constituents that they got the best deal for "their" side.
CrufflerSteve
07-29-2011, 16:21
so, do rich people use more government services than poor people?
of course they dont, but they are expected to pay more in.
they have private doctors, private security, gated communities.
we have free healthcare, cops, public streets.
so poor people use more and pay nothing most of the time.
why should the rich pay more?
and I am very poor.
It depends. That used to be mostly true. If you read about how the railroads were built you'll realize bailout and 'pay to play' aren't new ideas.
There's been a lot of fun stuff coming out of the one time audit of the Fed. Here's one example. This has come from the poor obsessive bastards who actually read it all. TALF, short for Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility made $220 million in non-recourse loans to Christy Mack and Susan Karches. Their chief qualification to get money was to be married to honchos at Morgan Stanley. These were pretty much zero interest loans where the fed took the word that the collateral was wonderful and would just let it slide if never paid back. If I could get a deal like that I'd be happy. I have a pile of horse manure that has to be worth $10 million.
I much prefer welfare to poor people than to the super-wealthy. It is way cheaper. I've heard people here refer to Obama as a socialist. That is sort of true. It's also sort of true that most all of the GOP is socialist this way. The people who got all the welfare from the Fed were having their losses socialized by all of us. If they actually made money on their crappy, stupid bets they got to keep it all.
I could go on but I'd probably say a Byte type thing about people like this and be banned.
That's why I love Ron Paul so much. he's been seeing this coming for years and everybody in power has been doing their best to ignore him. Using government services? These people serviced all of us so damned hard I'm surprised we can walk.
Steve
Saw this today, a look at who holds our debt:
http://i.imgur.com/fH0Xx.jpg
Saw this today, a look at who holds our debt:
http://i.imgur.com/fH0Xx.jpg
I say this with utmost sincerity: I wish I wasn't mildly colorblind as it's next to impossible for me to figure out that chart :(
68Charger
07-30-2011, 07:27
I say this with utmost sincerity: I wish I wasn't mildly colorblind as it's next to impossible for me to figure out that chart :(
reformatted a bit in paint:
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/Lunyfringe/USdeptors.jpg
(but it's insurance and that's pretty much recession proof since law requires it)
Haha, oh man. You wish.
reformatted a bit in paint:
-thank you ;)
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