ABC Story on CCW

[cmailliard]

I am going to post this here, did not see it anywhere else yet. The story is a one sided piece of BS, but after you deal with that there is actually some good information about OODA Loops, Human Factors and the need to Train, Train, Train. Train in all possible environments, not just when it's nice outside. Do you carry in the winter? Do you ever wear gloves? Better train that way. Train, Train, Train. Train the correct way. Stay Safe.

YouTube Video (http://youtu.be/8QjZY3WiO9s)

[spleify]

Interesting video, and you are 100% correct. Training is so important

[SuperiorDG]

I wonder how the average LE would do on that shooting situations? I guess the point is, how much training would it take to be successful at least haft the time. I would think a lot, perhaps as much as some elite military operators get. But the video did show an average person defending themselves successfully in a robbery attempt.

[Wulf202]

Based on most of the police shootings I've read reports on. The cops need more training than us lowly civilians do.

[jrdale84]

So their so called "expert shooter student" has spent countless hours playing airsoft... because that's totally the same. The guy actually in the first seconds explains exactly why I don't feel afraid on campus - most kids think video games and real shooting are the same.

Which illustrates the second problem with this experiment - the gunmen has decades of experience and is trained to identify a threat. In the version with the girl he instantly sees the draw and orients to the threat. How many school gunmen are looking for the person drawing? I would imagine most are busy trying to find their most hated classmates.

This does prove that kids with no real firearms experience can be given a few hours of training and tested will fail - especially against SWAT trained gunmen. Had they used another student to be a gunmen they would have seen different results.

Besides no one carries just to thwart a school shooting. There are plenty of other violent crimes that happen on a campus. Even if you did just carry for a shooting, at the end of the day anyone who has seen combat knows sure - some times you just never get a chance. So maybe in that classroom the gunmen does successfully shoot someone who can stop him - but when he steps in the hallway ... what if the next CCW holder is waiting for him? If those cops are so sure about how superior they are and how no one but them could handle that situation without getting shot I just want to know why they wear body armor?

[Irving]

Didn't the swat guys know exactly who the CCW guy was every time to boot?

[blacklabel]

Didn't the swat guys know exactly who the CCW guy was every time to boot?

I'm thinking so.

I'm also not going to be wearing a shirt that's long enough to cover my knees or use a holster with active retention.

They definitely didn't make this an easy test to pass.

[frozenmud]

Thanks for postings that was a good watch. Make sure that ya'll watch part two.

http://youtu.be/rLN6_s66wTg

Agree completely that QUALITY training is very important. The intro CCW training that the student received didn't seem that great, from what they showed of the training. Also well trained adversary with the element of surprise is going to wreck shop.

[Jai]

Video seems real one sided as they come in gunning for the CCW student every time. Really makes me wonder how many CCW holders are prior military, LE, or have more then a carry course under their belt. Anyone know of those kind of numbers?

[frozenmud]

Or if the CCW holder doesn't sit in the same seat every time the BG enters the room.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

emm i love the taste of shit getting shoveled in my mouth i better wash it down with piss

[Mazin]

I was gonna mention the ccw is in the same seat. I agree and have always told anyone I did the NRA Basic pistol class for, they need to get more training and never stop. It looks better on you and the benefits are life saving.

[Ronin13]

I'm with Mazin on this, and I tend to kind of disagree with the "expert" in the video, he said if you go a month or two months without keeping up on training you loose it... I went three months without any training or practice after my surgery and went right back to the range after recovering and it only degraded slightly. My friends thought I was a BAMF (mainly because they didn't have the training I did), I thought I could have done better, but it wasn't like I was some cherry FNG who'd never shot before.

[Great-Kazoo]

Video seems real one sided as they come in gunning for the CCW student every time. Really makes me wonder how many CCW holders are prior military, LE, or have more then a carry course under their belt. Anyone know of those kind of numbers?

Less than you think. I train and attend courses when possible. More training is something i stress during my CCW class. Of course i don't possess the 65 yard handgun vs rifle distance training others do :)

Prior military (IMHO) does not mean shit when it comes to CCW. The majority of military are issued rifles not handguns. Granted they may have received some training on them, still not to many carry them, OR are allowed except when in the field to carry one. Ft Hood ring any bells? there was more scrambling for cover than return fire, again just MHO.

[Jai]

Prior military (IMHO) does not mean shit when it comes to CCW. The majority of military are issued rifles not handguns. Granted they may have received some training on them, still not to many carry them, OR are allowed except when in the field to carry one. Ft Hood ring any bells? there was more scrambling for cover than return fire, again just MHO.

Just curious what branch of service were you in?

[TAR31]

Ft Hood ring any bells? there was more scrambling for cover than return fire, again just MHO.
Uh, are you serious? Little hard to return fire when it is illegal to carry on a military installation.

[Great-Kazoo]

Uh, are you serious? Little hard to return fire when it is illegal to carry on a military installation.

and that's what happens when you restrict the rights of not only citizens but those who voluntary joined a mil branch, to keep us free. Even with the MP's en route what was the response time before the "muslim terrorist" was stopped?
Does the military command think there will never be another attempt to attack military personal inside the US? Does the IHOP attack on UNARMED NG members and civvies not raise alarms regarding domestic terrorism, whether by caucasians or people of color?
Like my post or not i like you and others are merely voicing their opinion.

[Great-Kazoo]

Just curious what branch of service were you in?

Navy why?
i have given CCW classes to prior mil and to say their level of shooting is better than civilians is pathetic, in general. Same goes for active LE, how many actually train outside of their required quals ? Swat and task force excluded.

[Jai]

I did contract work training the Navy VBSS teams and they got a pretty decent amount of time with a 9mm. I have served with or trained every branch of service except the Air Force and I really think you don't know WTF your talking about. When I was in we shot 9mm at the rage two times a month and put thousands of rounds down range every time. Not to mention week long shooting schools and time out in the field.

My family is in every branch of service except the Navy today and speaking to them we all shoot pistol when at the range.

When people in CO can get a CCW without ever shooting a gun or having to qualify is absurd to say that military and police can't shoot compared to the average civilian. Just sounds absolutely ridiculous to compare the two. People that have seen combat and are in the line of duty and know about cover/concealment, evacuation plans, your simplest tac pro, and fire arms safety rules and compare them to the people in the video that play third person shooter games and shoot an air soft gun at soda cans is just not a fair assessment. You take any average Joe off the street or someone that served this country and put them at the range or in shoot/no shoot scenarios and my money will always be on the person that has HAD training. Even if they aren't a rec shooter they have had the training and experience and IMHO will react better in a real life situation that requires them to upholster a firearm and make a decision on what to do next.

[Great-Kazoo]

I did contract work training the Navy VBSS teams and they got a pretty decent amount of time with a 9mm. I have served with or trained every branch of service except the Air Force and I really think you don't know WTF your talking about. When I was in we shot 9mm at the rage two times a month and put thousands of rounds down range every time. Not to mention week long shooting schools and time out in the field.

My family is in every branch of service except the Navy today and speaking to them we all shoot pistol when at the range.

When people in CO can get a CCW without ever shooting a gun or having to qualify is absurd to say that military and police can't shoot compared to the average civilian. Just sounds absolutely ridiculous to compare the two. People that have seen combat and are in the line of duty and know about cover/concealment, evacuation plans, your simplest tac pro, and fire arms safety rules and compare them to the people in the video that play third person shooter games and shoot an air soft gun at soda cans is just not a fair assessment. You take any average Joe off the street or someone that served this country and put them at the range or in shoot/no shoot scenarios and my money will always be on the person that has HAD training. Even if they aren't a rec shooter they have had the training and experience and IMHO will react better in a real life situation that requires them to upholster a firearm and make a decision on what to do next.

the army started doing real scenario training in 08 since then they have upped the ante training wise.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/05/army_marksmanship_050408w/

the VBSS team is a boarding team, among other things, requiring more training than the average sailor. you have your experience and i have mine. Does you "family" actively carry side arms on duty and if so are the SP, MP, AP or regular .mil? Obviously we disagree on .mil shooters, however i did not see you challenge the LE guys. Again, the Average .mil guy / gal is not on range as much as myself or others i know, some maybe across theboard doubt it.

[Jai]

We def disagree. I am not talking about the majority of shooters off a shooting forum when I say civilians. I am sure if the video was reenacted using someone who "teaches a CCW" course they would also do way better then the video game kids.

I was just arguing againts your statement "i have given CCW classes to prior mil and to say their level of shooting is better than civilians is pathetic, in general. Same goes for active LE"

Yes, maybe your right if you want to compare someone who is a cook on a DDG . When I think average mil shooter I think infantry, MP, LE, ect. (yes, we all served in a combat arms or LE function, your right)

Sorry but no CCW course in the world and no amount of range time shooting paper targets will compare to when that first round goes off in real life. I am sure you have read far more studies then I have since you instruct a CCW course, about shots hitting the ground 3 feet in front of an officer trying to return fire. That very first time the shit hits the fan all that classroom experience goes out the window.

Its a totally different scenario. That's all I am arguing here is that military personnel and LE are more prepared to deal with life threatening deadly force scenarios then the kids in the video, and to me it seemed very one sided to base off these kids; I would like to see how the scenario would play out if the video wasn't so stacked against the CCW holder in the video. They come in gunning for him every freaking time because its the cop playing the bad guy!