View Full Version : Proof that CCW is a good idea
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1095594440001/dramatic-video-of-gunfight-on-public-bus
How many of us who might be on that bus would have silenced these gangbangers for ever? First off, child abuse, really? Come on, that was nothing. Second, because someone accuses you of child abuse you call in a hit on them? Wow. Oh, and I'm sure these were legal guns too, uh-huh, really, I'm sure it all due to our loose gun laws.
Mobat555
08-05-2011, 09:02
I was happy to see they are not smart enough to aim.
Lex_Luthor
08-05-2011, 09:05
I hate that now a days parents can't discipline their kids without someone else stepping in. That was definitely NOT child abuse. And the actions of the mother were inexcusable too.
UberTong
08-05-2011, 09:05
Wow...this stuff is too common anymore.
It just amazes me how ballsy these guys are to openly brandish semi's and go straight to a bus full of innocents with one accused and just simply open fire. With their aim and tactics, any one of us could have downed these guys with two shots. But unfortunately there won't be many CCW's in PA.
Reminds me of something like Somalia or some shit hole like that.
mcantar18c
08-05-2011, 09:22
And of course, "No Assault was committed since no one was injured." (According to their attorney).
Zundfolge
08-05-2011, 09:32
And of course, "No Assault was committed since no one was injured." (According to their attorney).
I don't understand that ... its my understanding that the crime of "Assault" is merely the threat of violence ... "Battery" on the other hand is actual unwanted physical contact.
But I did get my law degree from a cracker jack box so what do I know [ROFL1]
I don't understand that ... its my understanding that the crime of "Assault" is merely the threat of violence ... "Battery" on the other hand is actual unwanted physical contact.
But I did get my law degree from a cracker jack box so what do I know [ROFL1]
I'm not a lawyer, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...
Scanker19
08-05-2011, 09:59
Reminds me of something like Somalia or some shit hole like that.
Their tactics? [ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]
mcantar18c
08-05-2011, 10:08
Since no one has mentioned it, I feel obligated to say....
F*CKING HAJIS.
Rooskibar03
08-05-2011, 10:13
In Philly you would end up on trial just like the bad guys for returning fire. I guess it's only ok for BG's to have guns with their cheesesteaks.
(I grew up just outside Philly so I know all about that place. Brotherly love my ass)
Kudos to the driver for having the sense to get the bus moving and not jump off and run away.
ghettodub
08-05-2011, 10:34
Since no one has mentioned it, I feel obligated to say....
F*CKING HAJIS.
What does that have to do with this?
I'm not a lawyer, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...
WIN!
Just speaking hypothetically....
In that situation if any of you were CCWing, what would be the proper response? Be serious here. Because someone might learn something that could save a life or prevent himself from being a victim. So given its a bus, you have innocents both inside and outside. You have glass you must fire through. What is the proper course? Can a 9mm or 380 pass through glass and be accurate after?
mcantar18c
08-05-2011, 10:45
What does that have to do with this?
Investigators say brothers, Quran and Rahim Patterson, start firing into the bus with a large assault rifle and a handgun
I am serious about my questions. I don't think many people understand about angle of deflection and how that changes aiming or how each caliber is effected. I know I am not an expert and would like to learn.
mcantar18c
08-05-2011, 11:01
I am serious about my questions. I don't think many people understand about angle of deflection and how that changes aiming or how each caliber is effected. I know I am not an expert and would like to learn.
The glass on the sides of a bus aren't a significant obstacle for a bullet. I don't know about a .380, but it will be fine for a 9mm. And its not like it'll be a one-and-done deal, you'll be firing more shots after the first one breaks the glass.
I wouldn't worry about trajectory... at that close of a range, the effect the glass will have on that first bullet is negligible (and again, its only the first bullet), you'll miss more with your shots from lack of training and the adrenaline of the moment than you will from a sheet of glass.
As for people... once the BG starts spraying people are running and clearing the area, trying to make themselves as little of a target as possible. There probably won't me many people in the way of your shot.
I am serious about my questions. I don't think many people understand about angle of deflection and how that changes aiming or how each caliber is effected. I know I am not an expert and would like to learn.
Shoot through the open door, if possible. Heavier bullets will deflect less when passing through glass. Maybe a single shot(remove the glass), followed by 2 each a split second later for each of the BGs?
The glass on the sides of a bus aren't a significant obstacle for a bullet. I don't know about a .380, but it will be fine for a 9mm. And its not like it'll be a one-and-done deal, you'll be firing more shots after the first one breaks the glass.
I wouldn't worry about trajectory... at that close of a range, the effect the glass will have on that first bullet is negligible (and again, its only the first bullet), you'll miss more with your shots from lack of training and the adrenaline of the moment than you will from a sheet of glass.
As for people... once the BG starts spraying people are running and clearing the area, trying to make themselves as little of a target as possible. There probably won't me many people in the way of your shot.
and those missing of shots, where do they go?
and those missing of shots, where do they go?
If it were me I would take my first shots at the glass at the corners, realizing these are simply obstacle clearing shots and that they may end up anywhere - including an innocent bystander. However, if i couldn't do that I would take the shots at the glass in the same way as if I were shooting with no glass - as in the bad guys being the target, because the glass is not going to deflect that bullet so far off that line as to likely be an unintentional threat to someone else.
ghettodub
08-05-2011, 11:15
Investigators say brothers, Quran and Rahim Patterson, start firing into the bus with a large assault rifle and a handgun
They're two black kids from Philly, hardly Al Qaeda terrorists, and that word does have a meaning outside of a derogatory term for middle eastern people. That's all I'm sayin...
And it's not just a name of the awesome sidekick from Johnny Quest!
http://files.myopera.com/0x29a/files/Hadji.png
Now, I am not trying to be a dick here. I am posing these questions hoping that should one of us be in this situation that we take the proper course of action. For one, I don't think the sides of the bus will stop an AK round at close range. So you must be willing to get off a fast shot and duck and cover right away. I would hope that the guy(s) with the AK would then be scared enough to retreat. But that might not happen either.
The idea of shooting out the corner of an un broken window is a good idea. Aiming for the sky and hoping that the round does not strike a building with enough force to cause an fatality is good. But there is still risk to innocents too. If there is no high building then its a hope that when the range falls back to earth that it will do so with a small enough amount of energy that it will not harm.
So if a bullet does fall from the sky, does it still have enough power to kill?
Do you have a clear area behind the target should your adrenaline kick cause you to miss, will you kill an innocent? (unknown because I can not tell by the video what is behind the shooters)
But think this through some more. People might learn here.
I know a lot of people think that the AR is a fine weapon for home defense. It can be, or you could kill your neighbor from a bullet (steel core particularly) that passes through walls. I know most 9mm or 380 is not steel core (correct me if I am wrong).
I wouldn't worry about trajectory... at that close of a range, the effect the glass will have on that first bullet is negligible
Now is that true in off angle shots on glass? To my understanding this is true at a 90 degree bullet to glass shot. But what about 45 degree?
Any time you are forced to shoot to defend yourself, collateral damage from bullets that miss and/or over penetrate is always a concern. Deflection of a reasonable handgun caliber at an acute angle is probably less than the normal margin of error caused by the stress reaction. I stand by the decision to make an aimed first shot through the window, pausing to allow the glass to fall, then 2 each CoM for each of the BGs, then additional shots as necessary to end the threat.
Now is that true in off angle shots on glass? To my understanding this is true at a 90 degree bullet to glass shot. But what about 45 degree?
We're talking about standard auto glass... what kind of glass are you thinking? Glass is not this super high density material that can make a bullet's trajectory change by huge proportions.
Easiest way to handle this situation, where you are at, be it on the bus in the front or back, take aim, fire, once target is down move in and assess if the threat still exists, notify police.
I found this article interesting. They are saying deflection was +or- 4 inches. Not sure how they measured the point of impact distance after the glass. Still reading. I do wish I could find a good article like this that was newer.
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Harper1.html
Just one more reason to carry everywhere I go.
Just one more reason to carry everywhere I go.
Last Rockies game I went to I didn't get a pat down... I could have so easily brought my .45 in. That would then officially make it everywhere I go.
The glass on the sides of a bus aren't a significant obstacle for a bullet....
Actually, most are. Glass on mass public transport vehicles like that is thicker and made different. Notice the round from the AK didn't shatter it, just went through it. A normal car window is a lot different.
Angle of the shot comes into play a lot more as your angle becomes more obtuse or acute in relation to what you're shooting through.
CUatTheEnd
08-05-2011, 12:50
I've never been patted down at a Rockies game, infact, the last one I had a bag full of snacks, water ect, very full, all she did was ask to open it. It had side pockets and all and no bag check except to open. Could have easliy carried on me or in my bag.
Last Rockies game I went to I didn't get a pat down... I could have so easily brought my .45 in. That would then officially make it everywhere I go.
1. The line of fire was held within + 5° of normal to plane of glass at all times. Within this angle the refractive error is small compared with the human error of aiming and firing.
The article does not address (for lack of a better term) refraction. Based on the calibers used, I'm led to think this might be pretty old research. Regardless, most of their results support what you would think. I'm not sure if bus side windows are typically tempered, or laminated (like a windshield). This would significantly affect how the window reacts when shot. Aim small, miss small I guess...
The article does not address (for lack of a better term) refraction. Based on the calibers used, I'm led to think this might be pretty old research. Regardless, most of their results support what you would think. I'm not sure if bus side windows are typically tempered, or laminated (like a windshield). This would significantly affect how the window reacts when shot. Aim small, miss small I guess...
Yeah the article is 1938 and both caliber and glass construction are far different. Also I think that bus windows are not like car safety glass at all. I wonder if there are any pictures of the bus after the attack?
Yeah the article is 1938 and both caliber and glass construction are far different. Also I think that bus windows are not like car safety glass at all. I wonder if there are any pictures of the bus after the attack?
I noticed in the video that a bullet passed through the window but the window itself stayed intact. I've seen bullets impact side and rear windows and to different effects. Side windows on cars usually will shatter when a bullet hits them, but rear windows won't usually completely shatter. So I think the bus had laminated safety glass so that the entire window wouldn't shatter during trauma.
I noticed in the video that a bullet passed through the window but the window itself stayed intact. I've seen bullets impact side and rear windows and to different effects. Side windows on cars usually will shatter when a bullet hits them, but rear windows won't usually completely shatter. So I think the bus had laminated safety glass so that the entire window wouldn't shatter during trauma.
From my understanding bus glass is made not to fragment but to pop out in an accident. Correct me if I am wrong.
From my understanding bus glass is made not to fragment but to pop out in an accident. Correct me if I am wrong.
I think it's something like that, as in it's laminated so it stays in one piece.
I think it's something like that, as in it's laminated so it stays in one piece.
So what happens when you try to fire a 9mm or 380 into that. Because a 7.62 has ballistics that are FAR different. If the bus glass won't shatter then how do you account for deflection for all shots fired through bus glass.
These are things that all snipers esp police force snipers must take into account but with larger rounds so it is different. But I would think that police have some idea how their issued 9mm would behave. So if there are any officers, I welcome their input.
KevDen2005
08-05-2011, 13:47
I hate that now a days parents can't discipline their kids without someone else stepping in. That was definitely NOT child abuse. And the actions of the mother were inexcusable too.
I agree. Do you know how many of these types "child abuse" calls we take each week? And they never get it when I tell them that parents have a right to use physical punishment on their children...maybe your kids wouldn't be burning your house down right now if you used a little.
My parents spanked me and look how I turned out.[ROFL1]
Poking fun at the right wingers who don't like me[Beer]
HBARleatherneck
08-05-2011, 14:06
if you got involved, you would go to jail. i guarantee it...
So what happens when you try to fire a 9mm or 380 into that. Because a 7.62 has ballistics that are FAR different. If the bus glass won't shatter then how do you account for deflection for all shots fired through bus glass.
These are things that all snipers esp police force snipers must take into account but with larger rounds so it is different. But I would think that police have some idea how their issued 9mm would behave. So if there are any officers, I welcome their input.
Like stated earlier, the margin of deflection and refraction of a bullet's collision with glass (laminated or otherwise) varies depending on several factors. Snipers do take into account the many factors that can affect the bullet on it's path to the intended target. Glass is one factor. I know that when engaging a target with a pistol through a windshield (this is US Army MP PSD training, not civie police training) you have to account for the angle, construction and general thickness of the glass and thus we aim a slight bit lower than we would otherwise- such as pick a point of aim at about the bottom of the chin and you *should* (because it's nearly impossible to predict the effects a windshield has) achieve a head shot within the drool zone.
Ok angle of deflection on a windshield says aim low. What what about 45 deg shot through a bus with glass that is vertical? You don't have to be perfect. Theory is good here too.
Ok angle of deflection on a windshield says aim low. What what about 45 deg shot through a bus with glass that is vertical? You don't have to be perfect. Theory is good here too.
Every single situation is unique and nobody will ever account for all variables. As Ronin stated, snipers take these things into account because they can - they are more proactive than reactive and can choose their scenario. In this bus scenario you have to react and can't spend time thinking "if I hit the window at 15 degrees I'm safe, at 45 I'm in trouble". You over think it or put yourself into a position where you might second guess yourself then don't take the shot because it won't matter anyway.
Every single situation is unique and nobody will ever account for all variables. As Ronin stated, snipers take these things into account because they can - they are more proactive than reactive and can choose their scenario. In this bus scenario you have to react and can't spend time thinking "if I hit the window at 15 degrees I'm safe, at 45 I'm in trouble". You over think it or put yourself into a position where you might second guess yourself then don't take the shot because it won't matter anyway.
I would think at 15 deg there is a likely hood of deflection and ricochet rather than penetration. While this may be other thinking at the time. Think of this as an after action review or practice scenario for the future.
Every single situation is unique and nobody will ever account for all variables. As Ronin stated, snipers take these things into account because they can - they are more proactive than reactive and can choose their scenario. In this bus scenario you have to react and can't spend time thinking "if I hit the window at 15 degrees I'm safe, at 45 I'm in trouble". You over think it or put yourself into a position where you might second guess yourself then don't take the shot because it won't matter anyway.
Exactly. Defense is not a series of mathematical equations. It's simply action then reaction. You have precious little time (on average a shootout lasts less than 30 seconds- that's 2 people involved) to decide whether or not to pull the trigger. Just like the phrase goes- the quick, and the dead.
two shoes
08-05-2011, 14:38
Ok angle of deflection on a windshield says aim low. What what about 45 deg shot through a bus with glass that is vertical? You don't have to be perfect. Theory is good here too.
Take a look at this: bullets through windshield (http://theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm)
Take a look at this: bullets through windshield (http://theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm)
Interesting article.... What I would like to point out is angle of deflection here was based on a distance of about 3 feet from the window. So if the shooter was 6 feet or even 12 the bullet might hit the ground instead of the target. You only got 7 rounds. Make them count somehow. But how?
Interesting article.... What I would like to point out is angle of deflection here was based on a distance of about 3 feet from the window. So if the shooter was 6 feet or even 12 the bullet might hit the ground instead of the target. You only got 7 rounds. Make them count somehow. But how?
I'm curious, Nynco, I remember reading you said you were in the Army. What was your MOS?
Medic in both line units and hospitals depends on time frame. Did not see action other than Sept 11th day in DC.
Medic in both line units and hospitals depends on time frame. Did not see action other than Sept 11th day in DC.
So ninety one bravo?
nah, he'll say eighteen delta. [LOL]
Just kiddin nyclos or, ya... sorry, forgot your screen name.
nah, he'll say eighteen delta. [LOL]
Just kiddin nyclos or, ya... sorry, forgot your screen name.
Not in a hospital he wouldn't have been unless he was a patient :).
It is sad that, in this day and age, the powers that be are so clueless in their dictates. A law abiding citizen is not allowed to protect themselves when thugs are this brazen.
So ninety one bravo?
Yes 91B before they moved it to 91W. But I also became a 91P later. Ironically never used that MOS in the military because I got sent back to being a 91B in an infantry unit.
As to 18D. I wish I could have, I made a dumb decision and listened to my fiance at the time who said she would leave if I did. I'm still not sure if I would have made it though. Lord knows I was not physically ready for it. But I knew a few SF guys as friends through winter sports and found I got along with them best. I also had a mentor when I was young who was former SF. No BS from them and they valued thinking problems through in addition to following orders. But we all have things we might have done different.
Yes 91B before they moved it to 91W. But I also became a 91P later. Ironically never used that MOS in the military because I got sent back to being a 91B in an infantry unit.
As to 18D. I wish I could have, I made a dumb decision and listened to my fiance at the time who said she would leave if I did. I'm still not sure if I would have made it though. Lord knows I was not physically ready for it. But I knew a few SF guys as friends through winter sports and found I got along with them best. I also had a mentor when I was young who was former SF. No BS from them and they valued thinking problems through in addition to following orders. But we all have things we might have done different.
My favorite post to visit to this day has got to be Ft. Sam, so many cute young medics-in-training... just FYI the medic field is responsible for 80% of my old BN's female population... 40% of that was single, and 30% of them were good looking, not bad... for the Army.
palepainter
08-05-2011, 15:53
From the looks of the guy trying to put a round in the chamber, they were not too edumucated on how to properly use their weapons. The last thing I think they would have expected would have been some resistance.
Fort Sham is definitely easy on the eyes.[Beer] I definitely had a better time the second time I went there. 6 months of crazy 12 hour school days but at least I was prior service. Less BS and more chances to enjoy San Antonio. Many a fun weekend floating down the Guadalupe getting trashed on beer. Just don't drop anything in the river. The whole bottom was 3 feet deep in cans. yuck...
Fort Sham is definitely easy on the eyes.[Beer] I definitely had a better time the second time I went there. 6 months of crazy 12 hour school days but at least I was prior service. Less BS and more chances to enjoy San Antonio. Many a fun weekend floating down the Guadalupe getting trashed on beer. Just don't drop anything in the river. The whole bottom was 3 feet deep in cans. yuck...
Oh God, that river is disgusting... but SA is a fun town, for being in Texas. Had my fair share of flings with the hot little medic gals that made up our unit's Charlie Co. Best part about being with a female medic: She knows your anatomy well!
Okay, enough with the derail... I did want to add that most criminals count on compliance, that is why crime is so easy to perpetrate now a days. Hence why I carry and probably would engage a criminal if faced with a potential life-ending (for anyone, not just me) situation. But the real question that begs to be answered is: Sometimes it's better to report on the situation than to become a major factor in it, for instance the Sen Giffords incident- say you're in a public place and a man pull out a gun and starts popping off shots. You engage and kill him to save innocent lives, but in the confusion people identify you as the shooter and notify police of your description, who then arrive and engage you as the perpetrator instead of the hero. Would you stick by your decision to shoot the guy if the cops were now ready to put you down if you made any suspicious moves?
My answer: You bet your ass I would. I'd rather save innocent lives than do nothing.
Take a look at this: bullets through windshield (http://theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm)
The rule of thumb for shooting through safety glass, from what I've gathered, is the bullet's trajectory will be deviated towards the normal vector to the glass (IOW, it will be deviated toward the angle perpendicular to the glass.) So shooting straight (WRT the ground) through auto windshield glass, the trajectory will deviate downwards. In practical terms, aim high. This seems to be confirmed from the experiment above.
There was an online discussion years ago on shooting through safety glass, the tentative conclusion was that, IIRC, 9mm bullets did not make it through the glass with enough mass to penetrate the primary target, .45 would penetrate the glass but lose too much energy to effectively penetrate the target and .40 did quite well in penetrating the target.
I knew a guy (via the web), that had an encounter where he had to shoot through auto glass with a 9mm hollowpoints. After that encounter, he loaded every third round in his mag with FMJ ammo in order to penetrate the glass.
This is internet heresay and at least 7-8 years old, so take it for what it's worth.
mcantar18c
08-05-2011, 23:33
They're two black kids from Philly, hardly Al Qaeda terrorists, and that word does have a meaning outside of a derogatory term for middle eastern people. That's all I'm saying...
Yes yes I know that the term "Haji" has an actual meaning to it outside of using it to refer to a muzzie. Two black kids from Philly, maybe, but muzzies nonetheless. Just adds to it IMO.
You only got 7 rounds.
Uh... what?
Why the HELL do you only have 7 rounds on you?
Seamonkey
08-06-2011, 04:48
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1095594440001/dramatic-video-of-gunfight-on-public-bus
How many of us who might be on that bus would have silenced these gangbangers for ever? First off, child abuse, really? Come on, that was nothing. Second, because someone accuses you of child abuse you call in a hit on them? Wow. Oh, and I'm sure these were legal guns too, uh-huh, really, I'm sure it all due to our loose gun laws.
that's insane. Try to have someone killed because they criticized you then also be willing to kill someone just because... because why? Someone you know says that someone said something about something? WTF?????
From the video it looks like the uncle wants to go confront the person but the woman gets him off the bus. What was he going to do? Drag the guy outside and execute him? [Bang]
that's insane. Try to have someone killed because they criticized you then also be willing to kill someone just because... because why? Someone you know says that someone said something about something? WTF?????
From the video it looks like the uncle wants to go confront the person but the woman gets him off the bus. What was he going to do? Drag the guy outside and execute him? [Bang]
Nope, just execute him right inside the bus with random fire and with many bystanders.
mcantar18c
08-07-2011, 02:12
Uh... what?
Why the HELL do you only have 7 rounds on you?
Still waiting for your excuse nynco [Coffee]
I was thinking of the 7 rounds in the Kel tec PF9 I am shopping for. Perhaps you have another mag or a higher capacity. I was just saying you only got so many rounds, make them count.
mcantar18c
08-07-2011, 02:42
The way I see it, carrying a firearm without an adequate amount of ammo for it is as dumb as caring a firearm for defensive purposes (and why else would you carry one) without extensive training on how to use it (and I don't mean CCW classes).
My current setup has me with 33 rounds between my primary and BUG. My soon-to be setup (as soon as I get paid on Thursday) with a new primary will have me with 67 rounds between the two guns (and this is only 2 spare mags for each).
This may seem like a lot, but think about it. Don't look at a gun's capacity as how many rounds it can carry, but how many bursts it will give you (a burst being 3-4 rounds or so). When you're only worrying about one assailant, simply shoot him to the ground and be done with it, but when dealing with multiple targets, give one a 3-4 round burst and move to the next. When you look at it that way, a 7 round mag is good for 2 bursts... two attackers, if you're good enough to make every round count. Not enough for shooting one to the ground IMO.
I certainly hope you get a few spare mags for that Kel Tec to carry with you...
The way I see it, carrying a firearm without an adequate amount of ammo for it is as dumb as caring a firearm for defensive purposes (and why else would you carry one) without extensive training on how to use it (and I don't mean CCW classes).
My current setup has me with 33 rounds between my primary and BUG. My soon-to be setup (as soon as I get paid on Thursday) with a new primary will have me with 67 rounds between the two guns (and this is only 2 spare mags for each).
This may seem like a lot, but think about it. Don't look at a gun's capacity as how many rounds it can carry, but how many bursts it will give you (a burst being 3-4 rounds or so). When you're only worrying about one assailant, simply shoot him to the ground and be done with it, but when dealing with multiple targets, give one a 3-4 round burst and move to the next. When you look at it that way, a 7 round mag is good for 2 bursts... two attackers, if you're good enough to make every round count. Not enough for shooting one to the ground IMO.
I certainly hope you get a few spare mags for that Kel Tec to carry with you...I sometimes carry my pmr30 with a couple mags and one in the gun, now thats quite a bit of fire power
The rule of thumb for shooting through safety glass, from what I've gathered, is the bullet's trajectory will be deviated towards the normal vector to the glass (IOW, it will be deviated toward the angle perpendicular to the glass.) So shooting straight (WRT the ground) through auto windshield glass, the trajectory will deviate downwards. In practical terms, aim high. This seems to be confirmed from the experiment above.
There was an online discussion years ago on shooting through safety glass, the tentative conclusion was that, IIRC, 9mm bullets did not make it through the glass with enough mass to penetrate the primary target, .45 would penetrate the glass but lose too much energy to effectively penetrate the target and .40 did quite well in penetrating the target.
I knew a guy (via the web), that had an encounter where he had to shoot through auto glass with a 9mm hollowpoints. After that encounter, he loaded every third round in his mag with FMJ ammo in order to penetrate the glass.
This is internet heresay and at least 7-8 years old, so take it for what it's worth. Try shooting a 10mm auto through a winshield It will go through the winshield with poa on poi and keep going once it has hit its target, possibly even out the rear window
I sometimes carry my pmr30 with a couple mags and one in the gun, now thats quite a bit of fire power
I carry a single shot pen gun with one 50 AE because that's all I need to take on a few gang bangers.
mcantar18c
08-07-2011, 03:52
I carry a single shot pen gun with one 50 AE because that's all I need to take on a few gang bangers.
Ok, you can't be serious.
Everybody knows the .50 AE is like a .22 compared to the .500 S&W.
Hold on, are you saying that my .22 Derringer would not be a good defensive weapon? Why did they invent it then? I'm pretty sure I can take out the engine block of the bus with one shot if I needed, shoot the two gangbangers - through the window - with the other and STILL probably have put a sizable hole in the brick wall behind them.
Seriously, though, I don't personally carry 30 rounds with me because mostly I don't see the point of doing so. I believe I am far less likely to get into a GUN FIGHT than I am going to simply have to defend myself. If I'm in a situation that requires more than the 11 rounds I normally carry then I am either A) not intimidating in the least when I pull that weapon, 2) going up against more than four people - in which case I'm in trouble anyway or 3) a horrible shot - in which case I shouldn't carry anyway.
My feelings on CCW have always been that I'm carrying to protect myself and the most likely situations are going to be that I show my weapon that and that will diffuse the situation, draw my weapon and THAT will diffuse the situation or as a very last resort USE my weapon which I would think that within 2-3 shots the situation would be over.
Obviously there are some folks here that would disagree with this, I'm curious when - outside of being a cop - you would need 30+ rounds.
mcantar18c
08-08-2011, 03:06
Hold on, are you saying that my .22 Derringer would not be a good defensive weapon? Why did they invent it then? I'm pretty sure I can take out the engine block of the bus with one shot if I needed, shoot the two gangbangers - through the window - with the other and STILL probably have put a sizable hole in the brick wall behind them.
That only works with CCI Stingers, DUH!
Seriously, though, I don't personally carry 30 rounds with me because mostly I don't see the point of doing so. I believe I am far less likely to get into a GUN FIGHT than I am going to simply have to defend myself. If I'm in a situation that requires more than the 11 rounds I normally carry then I am either A) not intimidating in the least when I pull that weapon, 2) going up against more than four people - in which case I'm in trouble anyway or 3) a horrible shot - in which case I shouldn't carry anyway.
If you fire a gun at a 2-legged target for any reason, it's a GUN FIGHT. Now that that's out of the way...
You can't rely on intimidation to end the fight. While it may work against some less determined types, if there's drugs in their system clouding their judgement or if they have buddies to boost their confidence or women to impress... you need to be able to back it up. Is facing multiple targets any less likely than defending yourself against 1? I don't think so, in fact I think it's even MORE likely that you'll be up against 4+. Everybody has friends, and everybody is more bold/confident with friends to back them up (read: more likely to start shit). Think: group of "underprivileged minorities" hanging out in front of their favorite spot seeing a white dude walking alone at night. Or worse, walking with a cute girl they can harass. You carry 11 rounds on you. That's plenty... unless you need 12. A double tap is not sufficient IMO, plenty of good men have died because they thought a target dropped means a target dead.
My feelings on CCW have always been that I'm carrying to protect myself and the most likely situations are going to be that I show my weapon that and that will diffuse the situation, draw my weapon and THAT will diffuse the situation or as a very last resort USE my weapon which I would think that within 2-3 shots the situation would be over.
I agree with you on lots of things... but I have to disagree with you here. If you're drawing your weapon, you've already made the decision to use lethal force. If you're out of options and have to draw on someone, lethal force is necessary. If lethal force isn't necessary, drawing your weapon does more harm than good. As for 2-3 shots ending the fight... again I have to disagree. Talking about 1 target here, where you don't have to worry about his buddies. If you shoot, you shoot him to the ground, and how many holes he has in him depends only on how long he takes to hit the ground. A double tap or a Rhodesian Drill is not what you're going for when facing one on one... aim at center mass, and keep pulling the trigger till he's on the ground AND not moving. If he can move, he's still a threat. THEN the situation is over.
Obviously there are some folks here that would disagree with this, I'm curious when - outside of being a cop - you would need 30+ rounds.
The round count I mentioned earlier is a G19 with a G17 mag and one in the chamber +2 spare G17 mags. Plus my BUG pocket pistol with a spare mag. Two spares for my primary and one for the BUG isn't "impractical" IMO. If facing multiple targets in low-light or no light, and taking adrenaline into account, shooting from cover, etc. Not all rounds will be aimed rounds at a target... people underestimate the usefulness of pot shots/cover fire to keep their heads down while you get to cover. You want to be as well prepared to survive the fight as you possibly can, both in your training and in your gear.
The purpose of a handgun is to fight your way back to your rifle... whether you're fighting your way to where you can access your rifle or fighting to survive so you can come home to your rifle depends on the situation, but the point is to be prepared for the situation whatever it may be.
mcantar, while I agree with you, I'm really not well suited to carry 2 spare mags with me all the time, usually it's just one, but I understand exactly what you mean, hence why ammo choice is important as well. On a great day I'll have my Glock 22 with me and 50rnds of ammo to go with it- 2x 15rnd and 2x 10rnd- but only carrying in my car since I don't usually pack my glock with me on my person, that's why I have my 1911. So I get what Ranger is talking about. It's not always practical with your attire or activity to carry 2-3 magazines and I'd like to know the last time one of us actually encountered 2+ men they had to put down... I hope I never have to use my gun, but 9/10 times simply drawing your weapon and not firing can be a better alternative, then you hold them and call police.
It's all about what you're comfortable with in terms of security vs. convenience. For me, it's usually my Baby Eagle (15+1), and maybe a spare mag. Sometimes it's my Keltec P11 (10+1) and a spare mag. For some it's a 5 shot snubby in .38, other guys don't feel comfortable carrying less than a National Guard armory. It's hard to say who's right, but I feel comfortable with the choices I make. [Beer]
After reading all of this, I've decided to go with an MP5 K strapped to my lower back with two sets of clamped together mags, 120 rounds should be enough... [LOL]
Sorry, carry on.
mcantar18c
08-08-2011, 14:50
mcantar, while I agree with you, I'm really not well suited to carry 2 spare mags with me all the time, usually it's just one, but I understand exactly what you mean, hence why ammo choice is important as well. On a great day I'll have my Glock 22 with me and 50rnds of ammo to go with it- 2x 15rnd and 2x 10rnd- but only carrying in my car since I don't usually pack my glock with me on my person, that's why I have my 1911. So I get what Ranger is talking about. It's not always practical with your attire or activity to carry 2-3 magazines and I'd like to know the last time one of us actually encountered 2+ men they had to put down... I hope I never have to use my gun, but 9/10 times simply drawing your weapon and not firing can be a better alternative, then you hold them and call police.
By all means, the situation dictates the loadout. At work, an NPE where absolute concealment is necessary and yet very difficult, I only have my BUG and one spare mag on me, because if found with any weapons I'll be fired on the spot. While this isn't close to what I'd like to carry, I'm comfortable with it*. But if I'm in my normal "comfortable" clothes, I've got everything I can have on me.
Afterthoughts of a 'situation':
"Well, at least I still have 2/3 of my ammo left in case that f*cker that ran away is coming back with friends"
or
"Damn, I'm dry... I really hope the cops get here fast enough because if that guy comes back with buddies I'll be royally f*cked"
*Didn't want to jump all over with that paragraph, but I'd like to continue that thought. Feeling "comfortable" about your ability to defend yourself, kill if necessary, and survive any encounter, shouldn't be dependent on how much ammo you have on you. Going towards something I just posted in another thread... YOU are the dangerous thing, not your gun, not your blade, YOU. You should be just as comfortable fighting with a gun as you are with a bag of potato chips as you are with your bare hands, and should train to be proficient in all manners of combat. I see fatasses at the range, in defense classes, CCing out and about and don't understand it. I don't mean to offend the larger folks on here, but I think physical fitness is crucial to being able to survive. Sometimes a gun is NOT the best option... if your attacker starts the confrontation (without you noticing first) within a couple feet, you won't have time to draw and get rounds on him... hand to hand or with a blade are your best options until you can end the fight or fight your way to a position where you can access your gun. Being in good physical shape is just as important as getting the best training you can IMO.
I think guns are bad and only criminals should have them! [UZI]
airborneranger
08-08-2011, 15:19
So if a bullet does fall from the sky, does it still have enough power to kill?
I didn't see any response to this question but the answer is yes and no. If you watch myth busters, they claim that the answer is no. They were able to fire a bullet (30.06 I think) nearly straight into the air. It didn't come down with enough force to penetrate.
I say yes, because I have seen it first hand in Iraq. Back in 07 when the Iraqi soccer team won the Asia cup, 4 civilians reportedly died in Baghdad from celebratory fire. I was nearly hit myself when an AK round came screaming to the ground and literally exploded on the concrete next to my feet. One our FOB workers had an AK round hit him in the top of his shoulder. It penetrated over an inch but my medic was able to dig it out. I hate to think what would have happened if it hit his head.
Based on the assumption that most rounds will be fired at an angle and not directly straight up, you can bet that they will kill you when they come down!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.