Log in

View Full Version : When is it ok to use your CCL and do you HAVE to shoot?



Artyboy
09-22-2006, 12:31
I've been looking over the laws on the CBI website and I just want to confirm a few things.


18-12-106. Prohibited use of weapons.

(1) A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if:

(a) He knowingly and unlawfully aims a firearm at another person; or

(b) Recklessly or with criminal negligence he discharges a firearm or shoots a bow and arrow; or

(c) He knowingly sets a loaded gun, trap, or device designed to cause an explosion upon being tripped or approached, and leaves it unattended by a competent person immediately present; or

(d) The person has in his or her possession a firearm while the person is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or of a controlled substance, as defined in section 12-22-303 (7), C.R.S. Possession of a permit issued under section 18-12-105.1, as it existed prior to its repeal, or possession of a permit or a temporary emergency permit issued pursuant to part 2 of this article is no defense to a violation of this subsection (1).

(e) He knowingly aims, swings, or throws a throwing star or nunchaku as defined in this paragraph (e) at another person, or he knowingly possesses a throwing star or nunchaku in a public place except for the purpose of presenting an authorized public demonstration or exhibition or pursuant to instruction in conjunction with an organized school or class. When transporting throwing stars or nunchaku for a public demonstration or exhibition or for a school or class, they shall be transported in a closed, nonaccessible container. For purposes of this paragraph (e), "nunchaku" means an instrument consisting of two sticks, clubs, bars, or rods to be used as handles, connected by a rope, cord, wire, or chain, which is in the design of a weapon used in connection with the practice of a system of self-defense, and "throwing star" means a disk having sharp radiating points or any disk-shaped bladed object which is hand-held and thrown and which is in the design of a weapon used in connection with the practice of a system of self-defense.

Source: L. 71: R&RE, p. 482, § 1. C.R.S. 1963: § 40-12-106. L. 77: (1)(a) and (1)(c) amended, p. 971, § 63, effective July 1. L. 81: (1)(d) amended, p. 738, § 25, effective July 1. L. 82: (1)(d) amended, p. 623, § 18, effective April 2. L. 84: (1)(e) added, p. 539, § 17, effective July 1. L. 2003: (1)(d) amended, p. 649, § 5, effective May 17.

Editor's note: Section 11 of chapter 44, Session Laws of Colorado 2003, provides that the act amending subsection (1)(d) applies to offenses committed on or after May 17, 2003.

ANNOTATION

Am. Jur.2d. See 79 Am. Jur.2d, Weapons and Firearms, § 30.

C.J.S. See 94 C.J.S., Weapons, §§ 37, 43.

This section is neither unconstitutionally overbroad nor unconstitutionally vague. People v. Garcia, 197 Colo. 550, 595 P.2d 228 (1979).

Right to bear arms is not absolute, and it can be restricted by the state's valid exercise of its police power. People v. Garcia, 197 Colo. 550, 595 P.2d 228 (1979).

Common sense definition of "possession", as it is used in subsection (1)(d) is the actual or physical control of a firearm. People v. Garcia, 197 Colo. 550, 595 P.2d 228 (1979).

Failure to define "under the influence of intoxicating liquor", if error, was harmless, where defendant, charged with violation of this section, testified that he was too drunk to drive. People v. Beckett, 782 P.2d 812 (Colo. App. 1989), aff'd, 800 P.2d 74 (Colo. 1990).

Possession of a firearm while intoxicated is a strict liability offense, therefore, the trial court did not err in refusing to instruct the jury that "knowingly" was an element of the offense. People v. Wilson, 972 P.2d 701 (Colo. App. 1998).

Self defense is not a valid defense to the crime of prohibited use of weapons. People v. Beckett, 782 P.2d 812 (Colo. App. 1989), aff'd, 800 P.2d 74 (Colo. 1990).

Applied in People v. McPherson, 200 Colo. 429, 619 P.2d 38 (1980).

If I feel threatened and I show my gun am I committing a crime? I realize that you shouldn't draw your gun unless you feel like you're in danger and you intend to shoot the person. Realistically, though, there are a lot of situations that could be quickly diffused as soon as you introduce your firearm into the equation.

Let's say someone is breaking into my car and I catch them in the act. I yell at them and put my hand on my gun. They immediately realize that I'm armed and run away. As long as I don't point the gun at anyone then I'm doing nothing wrong correct? Can they get you for brandishing if you don't point the gun at anyone?


18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions.

(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. A permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. A local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2.

(b) A peace officer may temporarily disarm a permittee, incident to a lawful stop of the permittee. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the permittee prior to discharging the permittee from the scene.

(2) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.

(3) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school; except that:

(a) A permittee may have a handgun on the real property of the public school so long as the handgun remains in his or her vehicle and, if the permittee is not in the vehicle, the handgun is in a compartment within the vehicle and the vehicle is locked.

(b) A permittee who is employed or retained by contract by a school district as a school security officer may carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvement erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school while the permittee is on duty.

(c) A permittee may carry a concealed handgun on undeveloped real property owned by a school district that is used for hunting or other shooting sports.

(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:

(a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;

(b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and

(c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.

(5) Nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.

(6) The provisions of this section apply to temporary emergency permits issued pursuant to section 18-12-209.

Source: L. 2003: Entire part added, p. 647, § 1, effective May 17.

The only places where we're not allowed to carry are in public schools and public buildings where they screen everyone coming in, am I right? Signs mean nothing. Are there any other places where I can't carry? Are there differant rules for carrying in national and state parks?

KarlPMann
09-22-2006, 15:24
Well, brandishing is a bad grey area to some. I've been told and warned that just displaying a firearm can lead to lawsuits at times, but rarely would lead to criminal prosecution. As for "putting your hand on it" when approaching a would be car thief, that could be touchy in some cities. Personally I think I'd be likely to do whatever I wanted if the car were in my front driveway, but less likely if it were parked at the mall or such.

As for carrying it, like you said, if they don't screen for weapons and it isn't prohibited specifically by law, then the sign means nothing. Karl.

Artyboy
09-22-2006, 17:03
Well, brandishing is a bad grey area to some. I've been told and warned that just displaying a firearm can lead to lawsuits at times, but rarely would lead to criminal prosecution. As for "putting your hand on it" when approaching a would be car thief, that could be touchy in some cities. Personally I think I'd be likely to do whatever I wanted if the car were in my front driveway, but less likely if it were parked at the mall or such.

As for carrying it, like you said, if they don't screen for weapons and it isn't prohibited specifically by law, then the sign means nothing. Karl.

Is there a law that I missed somewhere that specifically states that you can't "flash" your gun or draw it without pointing it at someone? Maybe there's a federal law or something...... I would think that the feds would leave something like that up to the state, though. I understand that it could lead to civil prosecution. People can sue you for anything and win these days, though :roll:. I'm more worried about the criminal aspects. If someone threatens me enough that I feel the need to put my hand on my gun then I'll worry about them suing me later. I'm MUCH more worried about going to jail or losing my rights. Thanks for the info so far.

HunterCO
09-22-2006, 20:41
Is there a law that I missed somewhere that specifically states that you can't "flash" your gun or draw it without pointing it at someone?

Yes it's called menacing and if a deadly weapon is involved it is a felony in the state of CO.

Let’s make it simple unless you have REASON to believe your life or another’s is in immediate danger of serious bodily injury or death your gun best stay where it is.

MPfiveengineer
09-22-2006, 21:25
I am guilty of this. Back when I wan in college in Texas I worked part time at Circuit City for a while. Anyway, one night after getting home from work at 10:30pm and I decided I wanted to wash my car so I went to the coin wash. While I was washing my car I noticed two Hispanic guys casing the stall I was in by walking back and forth. I had a feeling they were about to try something so I "accidentally" lifted up the back of my shirt by extending over my car revealing my Glock 23 in my SOB holster. I made sure by back was pointed directly at them the next time they walked by. I firmly believe to this day that if I had not done that I would have had to use my gun that night.

HunterCO
09-22-2006, 21:44
I am guilty of this. Back when I wan in college in Texas I worked part time at Circuit City for a while. Anyway, one night after getting home from work at 10:30pm and I decided I wanted to wash my car so I went to the coin wash. While I was washing my car I noticed two Hispanic guys casing the stall I was in by walking back and forth. I had a feeling they were about to try something so I "accidentally" lifted up the back of my shirt by extending over my car revealing my Glock 23 in my SOB holster. I made sure by back was pointed directly at them the next time they walked by. I firmly believe to this day that if I had not done that I would have had to use my gun that night.

Ken that is what I am talking about you felt threatend and that is fine you did not break any law. I am saying that if you did that out of spite to say hey I am a bada$$ then your in serious trouble.

roman gnome
09-22-2006, 21:50
My thoughts too, those two guys had no intention of calling the police to say the felt intimidated.

MPfiveengineer
09-22-2006, 22:09
Good to know, I was told by a cop friend when I told him that story that what I had done was illegal. How about this one. When I got my first apartment in college my parking space was about 10 feet away from my front door. About 3:00am one morning my alarm went off and I dashed out the door with the nearest thing I could grab. When I opened the door I found three guys standing around my Jeep (unfortunately again they were Hispanic). They all bolted (maybe it was because I was wearing a pair of boxers and an AK47) I chased them for two blocks. What would be the legality on that one? Being a little older, wiser, and a little heavier I would not have chased them now. I was 19 at the time.

HunterCO
09-22-2006, 22:17
Good to know, I was told by a cop friend when I told him that story that what I had done was illegal. How about this one. When I got my first apartment in college my parking space was about 10 feet away from my front door. About 3:00am one morning my alarm went off and I dashed out the door with the nearest thing I could grab. When I opened the door I found three guys standing around my Jeep (unfortunately again they were Hispanic). They all bolted (maybe it was because I was wearing a pair of boxers and an AK47) I chased them for two blocks. What would be the legality on that one? Being a little older, wiser, and a little heavier I would not have chased them now. I was 19 at the time.

Don't chase that could have got you in a lot of trouble. unless it's covert [wink]

Artyboy
09-22-2006, 22:52
See that's the thing. There's a differance between what's right and wrong and what is legal. I carry my gun in case I need to defend myself. I don't do it to act tough. I sure as HELL don't tell people about it. I just feel like there are times when showing someone that you're armed is enough. Naturally, you can't do it expecting that to be enough. You still have to be ready to use it.

Let's take the example above where you're at the car wash in the middle of the night and a couple of goons come along and act suspicious. Those two didn't do anything but we all know that they were probably planning on doing something. Had they decided to go to the police and say that someone just flashed a gun at them could they arrest you and what kind of trouble could you be in? What laws would they use to prosecute you?

I suppose I just want to know exactly how the law works so that I don't get screwed. Not all laws follow the line of common sense thinking. Just because it seems to me like it's a situation that warrants protecting myself doesn't mean that the law will.

MPfiveengineer
09-22-2006, 23:09
Had they decided to go to the police and say that someone just flashed a gun at them could they arrest you and what kind of trouble could you be in? What laws would they use to prosecute you?


Those guys had no intention of voluntarily talking to any cops.

Artyboy
09-22-2006, 23:23
Had they decided to go to the police and say that someone just flashed a gun at them could they arrest you and what kind of trouble could you be in? What laws would they use to prosecute you?


Those guys had no intention of voluntarily talking to any cops.

I'm not saying that they were. What I am saying is what if they DID go to the cops and what if the cops DID catch up to you? I realize there are times when you just know that you're doing what you have to do and the cops don't even need to be involved. I just don't want to make a mistake like that and then find out I could end up in prison over it.

HunterCO
09-23-2006, 00:02
See that's the thing. There's a differance between what's right and wrong and what is legal.

The law knows this (most of the time) If you were on the jury how would you vote? That is what you have to ask yourself. [wink]


I carry my gun in case I need to defend myself. I don't do it to act tough. I sure as HELL don't tell people about it. I just feel like there are times when showing someone that you're armed is enough. Naturally, you can't do it expecting that to be enough. You still have to be ready to use it.

If your willing to show it then you best be ready to use it.



Let's take the example above where you're at the car wash in the middle of the night and a couple of goons come along and act suspicious. Those two didn't do anything but we all know that they were probably planning on doing something. Had they decided to go to the police and say that someone just flashed a gun at them could they arrest you and what kind of trouble could you be in? What laws would they use to prosecute you?


None unless they could prove MP5 was acting in a malicious manner by exposing his gun. The problem is who interprets what he did and how he did it? Depending on who is chosen to determine his actions will determine what charges if any...... you are asking a question that can not be answered. When it comes to law the question you must ask yourself is this.....IF you were on the jury what would you think?????? In that instance " You are the REASONABLE person"

As a everyday person if I was on the jury and "IF" what he said I felt was fact, I would feel as a REASONABLE person he was justified in what he did.

Most of the time if a DA feels it was justified they are not going to file charges. They generally only prosecute cases they can win they are lawyers after all. [wink]

BadShot
09-23-2006, 07:07
I think in the origional comment re: someone breaking into your car in a parking lot, not only do you have the right to flash the weapon, but according to the law - it's too early to search the forums for the part I'm refering to - you have the right to use it. I believe the premis was "Threat to persons and or property".

We've asserted several times that the car has been defined as an extention of your home, did something change?

Also keep in mind that in the majority of the state, we have an open carry right.

Accidental displaying of your weapon - Well folks, it's gonna happen. Outlining under a shirt, raising your arms - thus raising the lower edge of your jacket - to get something off a shelf... yada yada yada, can and will happen.

All said and told, common sense prevails here. Can you reasonably explain to an officer, judge and or jury, your actions?

It's always good to discuss the multitude of potential situations we can possibly encounter, keep it up.

Artyboy
09-23-2006, 07:30
It's always good to discuss the multitude of potential situations we can possibly encounter, keep it up.

That's mostly what I'm trying to do here. I noticed we don't really have a thread like that. So the general concensus is that as long as you do it because you felt threatened and no one can prove that you were doing it out of spite or whatever then you're good to go?

Marlin
09-23-2006, 09:10
Not really CCL related, But, related to the thread. When I first moved in here there was a kid across the greenbelt that thought He was the Badazz gangsta punk to end all. There had been "incidents" but nothing could be proved. Well anyway, one day He was out talking smack with gang, just loud enough that I could hear. Pretending that He was going to make a big "score" A couple of days later He was outside by Himself, It was a nice day so, I decided that the Shotgun "needed" cleaning, complete with function check. All the time, eyeballin' Him. Needless to say, I didn't see or hear much from Him after that. I'm pretty sure that He got the "message"

I heard from the neighbor that lived next door to them a few days later that the kid had pulled a knife on the old Man and had been taken away.

BadShot
09-23-2006, 10:05
It's always good to discuss the multitude of potential situations we can possibly encounter, keep it up.

That's mostly what I'm trying to do here. I noticed we don't really have a thread like that. So the general concensus is that as long as you do it because you felt threatened and no one can prove that you were doing it out of spite or whatever then you're good to go?


I'm not sure that's what I'm saying at all, but common sense is actually rather uncommon these days. I abide by some simple rules...

1. Never pull a gun on anyone unless your damn sure your going to use it
2. Be damn sure you have to use it
3. Be damn sure it's your word against a corpse

newracer
09-23-2006, 13:13
I think there is a big differewnce between "accidentally" letting some one know you are armed like MPfiveengineer did at the car wash and pulling your gun and threatening somebody with it.

Pistol Packing Preacher
09-23-2006, 16:11
There are two books that I would recommend to anyone that has [or will have] a CCW. ‘Armed Response’ by David Kenik and an old goody "In the Gravest Extreme - Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection" by Massed F. Ayoob.

Both books are good info on how to react to different scenarios. I learned a lot from them. Your local public library might have them. I bugged the Elizabeth library so much that they bought “Armed Response” just to get me off their backs!!!

One thing I learned is that it is one thing to stand your ground and defend yourself and another thing to run after the perp and execute judgment. Their comments!

I have no monetary interest in either book.

BadShot
09-23-2006, 18:44
One thing I learned is that it is one thing to stand your ground and defend yourself and another thing to run after the perp and execute judgment. Their comments!


That would be that common sense thing I was eluding to.. :roll:

michael_aos
09-24-2006, 14:39
Does open-carry here in Colorado put a different perspective on "brandishing"?

Mike

Scott
09-24-2006, 19:50
One thing I keep in mind is that the law, it's meaning and any charges brought against someone is left to the discretion of LEO's.

BadShot
09-25-2006, 08:17
One thing I keep in mind is that the law, it's meaning and any charges brought against someone is left to the discretion of LEO's.

Isn't that supposed to be the job of the DA? Followed quickly by a Grand Jury and Judge? I see your point about the initial decision to detain, but lets not go imparting Judge Dread like authority to LEO's..

Scott
09-25-2006, 23:07
One thing I keep in mind is that the law, it's meaning and any charges brought against someone is left to the discretion of LEO's.

Isn't that supposed to be the job of the DA? Followed quickly by a Grand Jury and Judge? I see your point about the initial decision to detain, but lets not go imparting Judge Dread like authority to LEO's..

You are correct, but that's not the point that I was trying to make. I had a situation years ago that came down to the definition of "traveling". The initial charges were given to me by an LEO when another LEO from the CSP said I was not in the wrong.

What I said above is exactly what the judge told me, just not in those exact words. I think it was something along the lines of: "At the time of response, the law is left to the descretion of the responding officer". Sorry if I skewed it a little.

BadShot
09-26-2006, 10:00
Like I said, your point is taken, I just think it is very important that in these types of discussions that we be as explicit as possible.

cheapo
09-27-2006, 12:23
I view my carry weapon as my "ace in the hole" in an attempt to save my life. Introducing a weapon into a situation by brandishing in any form without a direct intent of using it is a grave gamble. Will it defuse or escalate the situation?