Hypothetical ? - Shades of being the aggressor

[punkwood2k]

Hypothetical question here... Mostly because I've almost been in this situation, with questionable ex-spouses...

Say you felt the need to confront someone over some random issue. This issue calls for a possible argument / non violent confrontation, but the catch is, YOU have to approach them, on their turf. (maybe confronting them at their house, ect). Then the situation rapidly turns violent, and you are forced to defend yourself with your weapon.

Do you think this would put you in the role of the Aggressor? Assuming you had probable cause to defend yourself, but YOU made the effort to initiate the confrontation, regardless of your intention to keep it verbal only?

I wonder, because of past experiences and situations (usually involving children, exspouses, or parents of other bullies). Opinions?

[TFOGGER]

The law is not black and white, there are endless shades of gray. Words should never be a justification for physical violence, but if you are seen as the provocateur, you're gonna spend a sh!tload of time and money trying to beat the charges. I'm not sure how I would handle this situation, but it might be best to leave the firearm in your vehicle. I guess it would depend a lot on your read on the likelihood of things escalating from words to physical violence. If you think it likely, then perhaps a rethink of strategy might be in order, like inviting LE to be present beforehand, or arranging to meet the other person on more favorable ground.

[Byte Stryke]

if you MUST...Go Unarmed, leave that AT HOME. Request a PD presence.

The nature of the visit is really vague, so I cannot say if they would do it.
If they won't and you still feel you MUST, go unarmed, bring a friend.

If she knows you have a gun on you and she calls the cops crying "OMG He has a Gun and he's trying to get in!", they show up and find a gun, things are going to go REALLY south for you.

[theskalickys]

if you MUST...Go Unarmed, leave that AT HOME. Request a PD presence.

The nature of the visit is really vague, so I cannot say if they would do it.
If they won't and you still feel you MUST, go unarmed, bring a friend.

If she knows you have a gun on you and she calls the cops crying "OMG He has a Gun and he's trying to get in!", they show up and find a gun, things are going to go REALLY south for you.

This was on the tv show COPS. The guy had his CCL and got arrested for some sort of assault. The rowdy partiers said to the police that he took it out of his holster, but he said the closest to the gun was he had his hand on his gun in his holster when the neighbors came at him. Which made them go back in their house. The cops explained that he would of been okay if he stayed on his property, but it changed when he crossed into their yard to confront them with a gun even in his holster.
Then the cops were trying to see if the gun was his and not stolen.. Which it was not, but he was still but in the back of the police car!!


I guess we just have to annoy the cops by calling them when stuff hapens again and over and over and over.. Either way it seems the cops will be mad at me

[mcantar18c]

While I see the logic in leaving the weapons at home/in the car/whatever for legal reasons... I can't bring myself to support willingly disarming one's self and then intentionally stepping into a situation that you know could turn into one that may require the use of a weapon. This is a complete violation of the 3S rule.
I also don't agree with that logic from a legal standpoint. In court, things are based off what a "reasonable person" would do in the same situation. If you confront somebody in a nonviolent, reasonable manner, and THEY escalate things to violence and the law gets involved, and you/your lawyer can provide a solid case as to how things went down and show that you had no ill intentions when you confronted them... I think you'd be ok as far as criminal charges go.

[Clint45]

If the gun is pocket sized and stays in your pocket, that is insurance. If it is a full sized pistol on your hip, that is a threat and a provocation -- especially when you are intruding on a stranger's property or that of someone you know to be hostile.

Whenever you go on another man's land to initiate a confrontation, you risk being viewed as the aggressor. If you brought a weapon that seems to prove the prosecutor's case. If they see a holstered pistol all they need to do is lie to the policeman and state that you pulled it out to threaten them and you will be arrested. If they have friends and family members backing up their story and you went there by yourself with no witnesses you will probably be convicted.

If you show up and you are outnumbered and they are drunk, you should postpone the confrontation until another time.

[Geology Rocks]

i guess I have never been in a situation where I felt the need to go up and confront someone about something, so I dont know. Personally I would say carrying a gun makes you have to be that more responsible with what is going on and whats happening in life. I also feel is makes you play the hand of deescalation a lot more.

joe

[Byte Stryke]

my point is, if she calls the police, from Her House saying you have a gun and you do, you WILL be seen as the aggressor and are now painted "Guilty".

so, My Advice is:
First: Go through an attorney or third party arbitrator
Second: Go Unarmed with Police
Third: Go Unarmed with a Friend.


But I am telling you, you do not want to be there with her playing victim on her property and you being painted as the crazy ex with a gun.
As soon as you show up with a Gun, the Jury will hear "He brought his gun to his ExGirlfriend's house LOOKING for trouble."

That's my 2 cents
It's all yours from here.

[blacklabel]

I definitely agree with disarming if you must go but I'd avoid going at all.

My thought process when carrying is that it's now my ultimate responsibility to do my best to avoid confrontation or being in positions where I'm cornered and have to utilize my firearm to defend myself.

[pickenup]

Who can BUY the best lawyer, you or the other person?
Who can have the most witnesses to potentially LIE in court?

[OneGuy67]

if you MUST...Go Unarmed, leave that AT HOME. Request a PD presence.

The nature of the visit is really vague, so I cannot say if they would do it.
If they won't and you still feel you MUST, go unarmed, bring a friend.

If she knows you have a gun on you and she calls the cops crying "OMG He has a Gun and he's trying to get in!", they show up and find a gun, things are going to go REALLY south for you.


my point is, if she calls the police, from Her House saying you have a gun and you do, you WILL be seen as the aggressor and are now painted "Guilty".

so, My Advice is:
First: Go through an attorney or third party arbitrator
Second: Go Unarmed with Police
Third: Go Unarmed with a Friend.


But I am telling you, you do not want to be there with her playing victim on her property and you being painted as the crazy ex with a gun.
As soon as you show up with a Gun, the Jury will hear "He brought his gun to his ExGirlfriend's house LOOKING for trouble."

That's my 2 cents
It's all yours from here.


I gotta agree with Byte on this. You came to them, you initiated the interaction.

[Byte Stryke]

I gotta agree with Byte on this...

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d76/MWest1964/faint-1.gif

[punkwood2k]

Now, for case specifics, The ex-spouse issue happened before I got my CCW. And it was a case of my ex-wifes boyfriend spanking my son, which I had a SERIOUS issue with. Cops didnt care, social services didnt care, so I was forced to approach him directly. Of course, he got violent, like I expected him to, and we settled our differences the old fashioned way. lol..

Same issue in a nut-shell, about another boys father, that was bullying my son. A 13 year old, beating up on a 6 year old.. Cops didnt care.. So there were no other options besides direct intervention with the kids father.

No matter what we try, there will ALWAYS be situations that require confrontation, but inability to get authorities involved, requiring you to handle it personally.. However, I dont like walking into situations like that, unknown territory, unknown adversary, and completely unarmed.. But sometimes, you just have to do it because there isnt another option.

You cant rely on the police to solve all of our problems for us...

[OneGuy67]

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d76/MWest1964/faint-1.gif


I know, I know! It was hard to type.

[TFOGGER]

Isn't that right up there with the moon turning blood red as far as signs of the apocalypse?

[Clint45]

Now, for case specifics, The ex-spouse issue happened before I got my CCW. And it was a case of my ex-wifes boyfriend spanking my son, which I had a SERIOUS issue with. Cops didnt care, social services didnt care, so I was forced to approach him directly. Of course, he got violent, like I expected him to, and we settled our differences the old fashioned way. lol..

Same issue in a nut-shell, about another boys father, that was bullying my son. A 13 year old, beating up on a 6 year old.. Cops didnt care.. So there were no other options besides direct intervention with the kids father.

No matter what we try, there will ALWAYS be situations that require confrontation, but inability to get authorities involved, requiring you to handle it personally.. However, I dont like walking into situations like that, unknown territory, unknown adversary, and completely unarmed.. But sometimes, you just have to do it because there isnt another option.

You cant rely on the police to solve all of our problems for us...

What you are talking about falls into a grey area of extralegal activity which, while fine by 1950s standards, could get you in very serious trouble today even if you took firearms out of the equation entirely. No easy answer here. You're on your own doing something like that, and if things go wrong and you wind up in court you'll be on your own there as well. Right or wrong, it looks bad to a jury and the media for you to go to your ex's house to start a confrontation. It makes you appear to be a violent stalker type, even though that probably isn't true at all.

[Byte Stryke]

Now, for case specifics, The ex-spouse issue happened before I got my CCW. And it was a case of my ex-wifes boyfriend spanking my son, which I had a SERIOUS issue with. Cops didnt care, social services didnt care, so I was forced to approach him directly. Of course, he got violent, like I expected him to, and we settled our differences the old fashioned way. lol..

Same issue in a nut-shell, about another boys father, that was bullying my son. A 13 year old, beating up on a 6 year old.. Cops didnt care.. So there were no other options besides direct intervention with the kids father.

No matter what we try, there will ALWAYS be situations that require confrontation, but inability to get authorities involved, requiring you to handle it personally.. However, I dont like walking into situations like that, unknown territory, unknown adversary, and completely unarmed.. But sometimes, you just have to do it because there isnt another option.

You cant rely on the police to solve all of our problems for us...

Problem here is, you are a male...
with a Gun...
on their property...

I Agree with you that the Police cannot solve everything for us.

But given a single 911 call from a Hysterical female about a man with a gun trying to get into her house, it wont matter what your intents or purposes really were.

with the background given I would suggest an attorney and an EPO against the offenders pending an investigation.
Call the cops out to take the report provide as much evidence/photos/witnesses as possible.
Take report with attorney to judge.
your attorney will advise from there.

Beating on a door with a gun in your pocket will only provide ammunition for your enemies.

[Geology Rocks]

Now, for case specifics, The ex-spouse issue happened before I got my CCW. And it was a case of my ex-wifes boyfriend spanking my son, which I had a SERIOUS issue with. Cops didnt care, social services didnt care, so I was forced to approach him directly. Of course, he got violent, like I expected him to, and we settled our differences the old fashioned way. lol..

Same issue in a nut-shell, about another boys father, that was bullying my son. A 13 year old, beating up on a 6 year old.. Cops didnt care.. So there were no other options besides direct intervention with the kids father.

No matter what we try, there will ALWAYS be situations that require confrontation, but inability to get authorities involved, requiring you to handle it personally.. However, I dont like walking into situations like that, unknown territory, unknown adversary, and completely unarmed.. But sometimes, you just have to do it because there isnt another option.

You cant rely on the police to solve all of our problems for us...

http://safe2tell.org/

Call them and report the bully. They will follow up on everything.

joe

[Zundfolge]

Byte is 110% right. If there is a chance that there will be a confrontation when dealing with an Ex, you contact the sheriff's office and have a deputy escort you out to make contact.

Thing is, even if you go over unarmed and things get physical and you defend yourself and in the process of defending yourself you leave even a single mark on her YOU will go to jail for "Domestic Violence" and your second amendment rights are over. Done. Fin. Forever.


Now, for case specifics, The ex-spouse issue happened before I got my CCW. And it was a case of my ex-wifes boyfriend spanking my son, which I had a SERIOUS issue with. Cops didnt care, social services didnt care, so I was forced to approach him directly.

Its in the past so I'm doing a little Monday morning quarterbacking here, but there is one person that WOULD care and could do something about it; your attorney.

If I were divorced and my wife's new boyfriend was spanking my kid I'd take her back to court to get custody.

[punkwood2k]

unfortunately, I tried the court / attorney thing first, and all it got me was another bill.. Spanking is perfectly allowable in CO. Thats why Social Services and the police refused to get involved. You just cant leave marks / bruises on them..

Oh, and BELIEVE me. I dont even point a finger at my ex-wife.. lol. Even pointing a finger, or yelling, will earn you Domestic Violence charges in CO. Its freaking ridiculous..

Purely hypothetical question, for my personal curiosity. If a Gay couple get in a fight, is it Domestic Violence, or simple Assault?

[OneGuy67]

The D.V. charge specifically relates to anyone who is or has been in an "intimate relationship".

[Akyla]

Punkwood2k:

I'm a little confused. Do you live in Colorado and are referring to events that have or could occur here? Or are you referring to Vancouver, BC (as listed in your profile)? If Canada, then I would think most of us would be hard pressed to provide you specific recommendations. The laws in Canada obviously vary a lot from the US.

[Clint45]

unfortunately, I tried the court / attorney thing first, and all it got me was another bill.. Spanking is perfectly allowable in CO. Thats why Social Services and the police refused to get involved. You just cant leave marks / bruises on them..


Spanking a child whom you have lawful guardianship over is typically not regarded as "abuse." Did the child do something that he knew was wrong or something that endangered himself or others? Was he spanked over a minor transgression such as failing to clean his room or finish his homework? Or was he spanked because his stepdad was drunk and had a bad day at work? Or does the WHY not matter at all to you? Some kids deserve to be spanked so they don't turn into uncontrollable brats when they're older. Some parents deserve to have their asses kicked for striking a child inappropriately. There is a very big difference between those two extremes. You are no longer part of that household, and wanting to control what goes on there through breaking laws and using violence is troubling to me unless you can articulate something more defensible than "his new stepdad spanked him."

[punkwood2k]

Spanking a child whom you have lawful guardianship over is typically not regarded as "abuse." Did the child do something that he knew was wrong or something that endangered himself or others? Was he spanked over a minor transgression such as failing to clean his room or finish his homework? Or was he spanked because his stepdad was drunk and had a bad day at work? Or does the WHY not matter at all to you? Some kids deserve to be spanked so they don't turn into uncontrollable brats when they're older. Some parents deserve to have their asses kicked for striking a child inappropriately. There is a very big difference between those two extremes. You are no longer part of that household, and wanting to control what goes on there through breaking laws and using violence is troubling to me unless you can articulate something more defensible than "his new stepdad spanked him."

I wholeheartedly agree that sometimes a good spanking is called for.. I'm not one of those anti-spanking types.. But this guy is a transient figure in my sons life (I may have referred to him as "step-father" only to speed the explanation), and only in the house until my ex finds someone new. So its not like he has ANY authority over my son, or any permanence either. And it is belt / shoe spankings, over very trivial things. Hard enough that my son started crying again as he was telling me about it, which is VERY unlike him.. And I also have 50/50 custody of my son, so its not like I'm trying to throw my influence on a custody issue that I have no rights in.. Unfortunately, my custody is 1 week on, 1 week off, so by the time I got him back, any marks from the belt / shoe/ ect had already faded...

[punkwood2k]

Punkwood2k:

I'm a little confused. Do you live in Colorado and are referring to events that have or could occur here? Or are you referring to Vancouver, BC (as listed in your profile)? If Canada, then I would think most of us would be hard pressed to provide you specific recommendations. The laws in Canada obviously vary a lot from the US.


Sorry.. Denver, Colorado.. Not sure how the Vancouver, BC happened.

[Tweety Bird]

It's tough, I know, but you have to get the emotion out of it, which means a third party to help (or to at least be a friendly witness).

If belts and shoes are involved, they'll probably leave marks. I know all about the additional bills (BTDT, though not over the kids), but a restraining order is probably your next step. Full-time and sole custody of the kid should be your primary concern and the RO is likely the first step.

Like it or not, you have to work WITHIN the laws. Showing up on your ex-wife's doorstep with a gun won't end well if the LEO should find it in your pocket, even if you didn't present it.

Will Rogers once said, "A gun can get you into more trouble than free legal advice."

And you're getting plenty of free legal advice here. Consider it for what you paid for it.