The "Jobs" plan

[BPTactical]

Just curious what folks reactions to BarryO's Jobs speech is.
I didn't watch it but read "highlights" and heard some critiques.

Our country is broke, we are in a tremendous deficit which means too much going out and not enough coming in. He is proposing "tax cuts" which will do little for peoples incomes, avg. 1500 per year of "extra income". That equates to a hair over 100.00 per month which realistically is a drop in the bucket for most. Sure it is something but what is the long term cost?
So as a country we are broke and next year even less will be going to .gov.
Incentives for employers to hire? How many of those incentives will go directly to Unions?
Government cannot create jobs.
It just sounds like another "stimulus" package which we all know was an epic FAIL.



It has been said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results.

[Ranger]

TARP Jr. More proselytizing from Obamao the Profit. Excuse me while I barf.

[Cman]

Obammas a joke and I never listen to anything he has to say.

[Mtn.man]

What's 450 billion $$$$.

[n8tive97]

Worst president ever....

[Mobat555]

It cracks me up that anyone expects the government to effect the economy in a significant manor. I don't care if its Obama, Bush, Clinton, or Reagan. When it comes down to it our country has a crappy economy because in the past 30 years companies found much cheaper ways to manufacture other places in the world. If we don't "make" anything here then how can we expect to employee people? You want to shoot some blame it has more to do with company's valuing their profit margin over any type of patriotism to this country.

The government can give them tax breaks and they will horde more money, then can attempt to increase taxes on the rich and they will just leave the country. Please enlighten me as to something the GOV can do to effect this?

[Rooskibar03]

The entire thing was a joke.  “Pass this bill now” 17 f’ing times?  Seriously? We haven’t even seen the bill (not that it matters)  “It will be paid for” BULL Shite.
 
Convenient how this “credible threat to NYC and Washington came out 1 hour before his speech and that was all the left was talking about afterwards.
 
The thing that boils my blood more then anything was GE CEO Jeffrey Immelt sitting in the box next to that amazon Michelle.  The guy is supposed to be our job czar and just got done sending jobs in the new xRay division to China. He is sitting on billions in foreign assets to avoid having to pay US taxes on and he is the guy who is advising on jobs in the country?
 
Try they all for treason.
 
 

[Mtn.man]

And what little sneaky things are riding along with this bill???

[sniper7]

Going to take a lot more than some bill to create jobs in the country. Time is the key. Small businesses are scared. Healthcare issues the economy and the stability of our leaders are all questionable. That doesn't make people want to hire unless they absolutely need the bodies. Another stimulus plan is all bongo is really proposing. The last was an epic fail and this one will be too if passed.

[Byte Stryke]

until we penalize companies for moving jobs outside of the country we will continue to go broke.

if you can make doodad here for $5 but choose to make offshore at 1$ we need to charge an extra $4 tarrif to remove the lure to move the job of making the doodad offshore.


argue/discuss/debate

[roberth]

Any job the government "creates" is paid for with money confiscated from the private sector.

This means that a private sector person is unable to create a job because the government has stolen the money.

This is as idiotic an sanfrannan and her "$1 of unemployment creates $1.50" statement.

Government does not create anything except for more government. Just about everything the government does could be done better with less cost in the private sector.

I can't wait until this jackass is out of office.

[Mtn.man]

The government cannot create jobs...

[BPTactical]

And what little sneaky things are riding along with this bill???

Precisely.

Great point Roberth: .gov "jobs" are just funds shifted. No real money earned.

[Hoosier]

[Buffet] says the guys secretary pays more in taxes- false. Buffet doesn't collect a salary so his gains are taxed at a lower rate.

It's Warren Buffet who says his secretary pays a higher percentage of her income in taxes than he does. It's precisely because Buffet is so rich and has so much money in the market that all of his profit is in the form of long term capital gains, which is taxed at a flat 15%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_United_States

In real absolute terms Warren assuredly writes a larger check to the Treasury each year, his point is that as a portion of his take home pay, he has to give up a smaller percentage to uncle sam than does people who make normal wages and pay payroll taxes.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece

Facts are for fun.

H.

[waxthis]

The entire thing was a joke. “Pass this bill now” 17 f’ing times? Seriously? We haven’t even seen the bill (not that it matters) “It will be paid for” BULL Shite.

Convenient how this “credible threat to NYC and Washington came out 1 hour before his speech and that was all the left was talking about afterwards.

The thing that boils my blood more then anything was GE CEO Jeffrey Immelt sitting in the box next to that amazon Michelle. The guy is supposed to be our job czar and just got done sending jobs in the new xRay division to China. He is sitting on billions in foreign assets to avoid having to pay US taxes on and he is the guy who is advising on jobs in the country?

Try they all for treason.



+1..I was wondering if anoyone else saw that. The F$!$&$! media should be all over that POS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....................[Bang]

[JohnTRourke]

Party On Wayne

[Sharpienads]

It cracks me up that anyone expects the government to effect the economy in a significant manor. I don't care if its Obama, Bush, Clinton, or Reagan. When it comes down to it our country has a crappy economy because in the past 30 years companies found much cheaper ways to manufacture other places in the world. If we don't "make" anything here then how can we expect to employee people? You want to shoot some blame it has more to do with company's valuing their profit margin over any type of patriotism to this country.

The government can give them tax breaks and they will horde more money, then can attempt to increase taxes on the rich and they will just leave the country. Please enlighten me as to something the GOV can do to effect this?

1. Governments have a huge impact on economies.
2. How is it unpatriotic to move a business overseas if it's cheaper?
3. What business of yours is it what businesses do with their money?
4. What's wrong with leaving a country if the government of said country takes what you believe to be too much of your money?

[Sharpienads]

until we penalize companies for moving jobs outside of the country we will continue to go broke.

if you can make doodad here for $5 but choose to make offshore at 1$ we need to charge an extra $4 tarrif to remove the lure to move the job of making the doodad offshore.


argue/discuss/debate

Why does it cost $5 to make a widget here and only $1 to make it somewhere else?

Instead of penalizing businesses (which is why our economy sucks in the first place) we should incentivize them to stay here in the first place.

Get the government out of business, and unleash the free market.

[Byte Stryke]

1. Governments have a huge impact on economies.
Agreed
2. How is it unpatriotic to move a business overseas if it's cheaper?
You expect U.S. government bailouts, U.S. government protections with no sense of obligation to the same.

3. What business of yours is it what businesses do with their money?
None, But if they are going to fold, crash and die... they shouldn't ask for mine.

4. What's wrong with leaving a country if the government of said country takes what you believe to be too much of your money?
If you are going to leave, leave completely. Renounce citizenship and GTFO.

capitalism isn't about win or you lose... if the company fucks up great, FAIL and Die.
Don't sit there telling me you are taking Jobs from Americans and move shit overseas but then expect free trade to bring the crap here and when it won't sell expect those same Americans to bail you out.

Kinda like your wife fucking your best friend and asking you to wash the sheets afterwards.
not happening.

[Byte Stryke]

Why does it cost $5 to make a widget here and only $1 to make it somewhere else?



Umm we don't believe in child labor sweat shops?

[tmleadr03]

Umm we don't believe in child labor sweat shops?

Why are those a bad thing?

[Byte Stryke]

Why are those a bad thing?

/ignored

[Bailey Guns]

It cracks me up that anyone expects the government to effect the economy in a significant manor. I don't care if its Obama, Bush, Clinton, or Reagan. When it comes down to it our country has a crappy economy because in the past 30 years companies found much cheaper ways to manufacture other places in the world. If we don't "make" anything here then how can we expect to employee people? You want to shoot some blame it has more to do with company's valuing their profit margin over any type of patriotism to this country.

The government can give them tax breaks and they will horde more money, then can attempt to increase taxes on the rich and they will just leave the country. Please enlighten me as to something the GOV can do to effect this?

If you don't think government can affect the economy significantly, you need to only read what you just wrote to change your mind. The government doesn't produce jobs, maybe, but it sure as hell can significantly affect the economy. Some examples:

TARP - $850B wasted, basically
Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac
Huge corporate bailouts
Monetizing debt
Obamacare
Predatory corporate tax rates that drives production, and jobs, overseas
ad nauseumThose are just a few examples off the top of my head. HERE'S (http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/1DFA0969D85ED690F4E4B05858404992.gif?w=370&h=370&as=1) a great primer on government spending and the economy:

http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/1DFA0969D85ED690F4E4B05858404992.gif?w=370&h=370&as=1

[tmleadr03]

until we penalize companies for moving jobs outside of the country we will continue to go broke.

if you can make doodad here for $5 but choose to make offshore at 1$ we need to charge an extra $4 tarrif to remove the lure to move the job of making the doodad offshore.


argue/discuss/debate

Smoot-Hawley worked so well, we should do it again!!!

Better yet, lets make it better for the companies to work here rather then penalize them for moving. We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. Yup, if I have to fork over 40% of my profits to the .gov you better believe I want bailouts out of that. Fuck both those things. Lower the tax rate and no bailouts.

[tmleadr03]

/ignored

LOL ok. You need to look a bit closer at the problem of the sweat shops and do some logical thinking. But if you really think paying some of the highest wages to people in those areas and giving them a better living then they would have had with out those "sweat shops" is bad... ah well.

ETA: Are you for minimum wage as well?

[Bailey Guns]

1. Governments have a huge impact on economies.
2. How is it unpatriotic to move a business overseas if it's cheaper?
3. What business of yours is it what businesses do with their money?
4. What's wrong with leaving a country if the government of said country takes what you believe to be too much of your money?

and


Why does it cost $5 to make a widget here and only $1 to make it somewhere else?

Instead of penalizing businesses (which is why our economy sucks in the first place) we should incentivize them to stay here in the first place.

Get the government out of business, and unleash the free market.

Bingo! That's the winning solution right there.

The below is totally off the mark and it's part of the problem, not the solution:


until we penalize companies for moving jobs outside of the country we will continue to go broke.

if you can make doodad here for $5 but choose to make offshore at 1$ we need to charge an extra $4 tarrif to remove the lure to move the job of making the doodad offshore.


argue/discuss/debate

tmleadr03 nailed the answer to this one.

The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world at just a hair under 40%. 40 freakin percent, folks. You people are constantly harping on freedom. Then why would you penalize corporations for taking advantage of a better business climate in another country? Why not make it advantageous for companies to do business here? Why not make the US the most business friendly country in the world and take business/production away from other countries?
“United States companies are now in the position of trying to compete in the 21st century world economy with a 20th century tax system,” said Ho. “Dozens of countries around the world—including many of the United States’ closest trading partners—have realized that sky-high corporate tax rates are an economic dead end. Now more than ever, Americans want to see policies that will help create increased growth, more jobs, and higher standards of living – exactly the things that a lower and more streamlined corporate tax system can help achieve.”

Rest of the story HERE (http://dailycaller.com/2011/03/16/america-to-have-the-highest-corporate-tax-rate-in-april/).

[Sharpienads]

1. Governments have a huge impact on economies.
Agreed
Agree to... um, agree.

2. How is it unpatriotic to move a business overseas if it's cheaper?
You expect U.S. government bailouts, U.S. government protections with no sense of obligation to the same.
Who said I expect bailouts? If a company fails, it should go through bankruptcy. Too big to fail is a load of BS. Businesses in foreign countries are subject to the host nation's laws. I still don't see how doing what is in your best interest or your company's is unpatriotic. And if doing whatever the government tells you or your business to do, or just accepting whatever happens, is unpatriotic, than I guess I am unpatriotic, too.

3. What business of yours is it what businesses do with their money?
None, But if they are going to fold, crash and die... they shouldn't ask for mine.
Agreed. And the government shouldn't give it to them.

4. What's wrong with leaving a country if the government of said country takes what you believe to be too much of your money?
If you are going to leave, leave completely. Renounce citizenship and GTFO.
I have no problem with that, but if your government has become hostile to a certain economic class, they would be in the wrong, not you for leaving.

capitalism isn't about win or you lose... if the company fucks up great, FAIL and Die.
Don't sit there telling me you are taking Jobs from Americans and move shit overseas but then expect free trade to bring the crap here and when it won't sell expect those same Americans to bail you out.

I agree. But again, why are businesses leaving in the first place?

Kinda like your wife fucking your best friend and asking you to wash the sheets afterwards.
not happening.

I'm not so much defending business as I am blaming government.

[Bailey Guns]

1. Governments have a huge impact on economies.
Agreed
2. How is it unpatriotic to move a business overseas if it's cheaper?
You expect U.S. government bailouts, U.S. government protections with no sense of obligation to the same.

3. What business of yours is it what businesses do with their money?
None, But if they are going to fold, crash and die... they shouldn't ask for mine.

4. What's wrong with leaving a country if the government of said country takes what you believe to be too much of your money?
If you are going to leave, leave completely. Renounce citizenship and GTFO.

capitalism isn't about win or you lose... if the company fucks up great, FAIL and Die.
Don't sit there telling me you are taking Jobs from Americans and move shit overseas but then expect free trade to bring the crap here and when it won't sell expect those same Americans to bail you out.

Kinda like your wife fucking your best friend and asking you to wash the sheets afterwards.
not happening.

Lot of FAIL in your logic here, Byte. Stop and think about what you're writing and how your views fit into our constitutional freedoms and privileges.

For the record, I've seen few people here - actually none that I can think of - arguing FOR bailouts and such. I sure as hell don't. I agree...conduct your business in a way that promotes growth, or fail. It's simple.

[Byte Stryke]

Businesses are leaving because they can beat a 9 year old kid into working 14 hours a day for 10 cents in an often deadly or dangerous environment and then import that same product into the country with no repercussions.
You think Thailand is offering any corporate bailouts?
you forget, I have seen these places.

I am all for companies doing what they want, don't get me wrong. but when your shit collapses do come running back to the same country you dumped for help.


as far as blame... its our fault, everyone, Government, Corporate and Citizenry.
everyone took advantage and we let our government do this to us.

We have to have higher corporate taxes to pay for Monica's dress, airforce one vacations and fat legislative expense accounts and lobbyists. Because you know its just to hard to make ends meet on 174K a year and a fat fucking expense account. We have to maximize profit margins even if it means moving the factory overseas and employing 10 year-olds so we don't have to give them PPE from the heavy metals/chemicals. Safety is not cost effective.

and yes, I am all for a minimum wage because I don't want to live with 40 relatives in a single room apartment and share a bag of rice for a month.

my point is that corruption at all levels is eating away at the base economy and the only ones that will survive is the corporate and political elite.

[Byte Stryke]

Lot of FAIL in your logic here, Byte. Stop and think about what you're writing and how your views fit into our constitutional freedoms and privileges.

For the record, I've seen few people here - actually none that I can think of - arguing FOR bailouts and such. I sure as hell don't. I agree...conduct your business in a way that promotes growth, or fail. It's simple.


so you are saying that when GM Ford and Chrysler moved shit out of the country because it was cheaper, their quality failed, sales dropped and then sat in congress begging money it was OK?

I didn't see Toyota or BMW asking for a handout...


someone ban me again... this place went to pot

[tmleadr03]

Businesses are leaving because they can beat a 9 year old kid into working 14 hours a day for 10 cents in an often deadly or dangerous environment and then import that same product into the country with no repercussions.
You think Thailand is offering any corporate bailouts?
you forget, I have seen these places.

I am all for companies doing what they want, don't get me wrong. but when your shit collapses do come running back to the same country you dumped for help.


as far as blame... its our fault, everyone, Government, Corporate and Citizenry.
everyone took advantage and we let our government do this to us.

We have to have higher corporate taxes to pay for Monica's dress, airforce one vacations and fat legislative expense accounts and lobbyists. Because you know its just to hard to make ends meet on 174K a year and a fat fucking expense account. We have to maximize profit margins even if it means moving the factory overseas and employing 10 year-olds so we don't have to give them PPE from the heavy metals/chemicals. Safety is not cost effective.

and yes, I am all for a minimum wage because I don't want to live with 40 relatives in a single room apartment and share a bag of rice for a month.

my point is that corruption at all levels is eating away at the base economy and the only ones that will survive is the corporate and political elite.

If setting an arbitrary wage level promotes a good economy then why leave it at 7.50 an hour? Wouldn't 15 an hour entry wage be better?

[tmleadr03]

so you are saying that when GM Ford and Chrysler moved shit out of the country because it was cheaper, their quality failed, sales dropped and then sat in congress begging money it was OK?

I didn't see Toyota or BMW asking for a handout...


someone ban me again... this place went to pot

No he is not, in point of fact he specifically stated in his post that it was NOT ok and no one here was advocating for a bail out.

As to Toyota and BMW, in response to the domestic bailouts they actually did get some from their respective governments. And health care in Germany (a big cost for a company) is subsidized by their government in the form of socialist health care. They can do this, in part, because we are such a strong military presence over there.

I am sorry to hear you cannot deal with alternate opinions easily.

[Sharpienads]

If setting an arbitrary wage level promotes a good economy then why leave it at 7.50 an hour? Wouldn't 15 an hour entry wage be better?

+1

Minimum wage is nothing but a government set price floor on labor. Labor follows the laws of economics (like supply and demand) just like everything else. A minimum wage upsets the market equilibrium for labor.

[Bailey Guns]

So you really think foreign auto companies moved their factories here outta kindness?

I submit they moved here due to government incentives that would make it financially acceptable to move their factories here and hire American workers. So in a sense, I'd say they did get a government handout...but one that works in favor of Americans.

I won't speak to the personal choices you made in your life. That's a problem you have to deal with and minimum wage doesn't have a damn thing to do with it.

[Bailey Guns]

Corporations and other business exist for one reason and one reason only. Profit...to either the owner or shareholders.

Everything else that comes about as a result of a corporation existing exists to maximize profit. That's pretty much how capitalism works. In a true free-market environment a business that follows a predatory business model will be taken care of by supply and demand. They'll either price themselves out of the market or if they take advantage of their employees past a certain point the employees will look for work elsewhere. It's Darwinism of the corporate world.

If you don't understand or like that, maybe you're the one who should find a place that's more in line with your beliefs.

[Sharpienads]

And, if you don't like the way a company does business, don't spend your money there. When enough people agree, they go out of business.

The free market is a pretty simple idea, and it's not evil or immoral. Unfortunately, our government seems to think they can "fix" it, when it was them that effed it up in the first place.

[Byte Stryke]

and this is the very same crowd that was bitching about call centers (The AT&T/TMobile/Verizon thing) being moved out of the country...

[ROFL1]

[tmleadr03]

And, if you don't like the way a company does business, don't spend your money there. When enough people agree, they go out of business.


It is amazing how this does not connect with people. My mom thinks Walmart is the devil incarnate. Yet she continues to shop there. I just don't get it. If I disagree with a company on ideas or policies or anything like that I just will not support them. Hell, I do this on an individual level as well. Case in point is the Dixie Chicks. I will still change the radio station when they come on.

[tmleadr03]

and this is the very same crowd that was bitching about call centers being moved out of the country...

[ROFL1]

Well, yes. But how is that not in agreement with anything I have posted?

[tonantius]

Wow! tough crowd on this topic.

I am always divided on these issues. My libertarian side says Laissez Faire. But my conservative side says protectionism. But I think the libertarian side would be better for all concerned.

[Bailey Guns]

and this is the very same crowd that was bitching about call centers (The AT&T/TMobile/Verizon thing) being moved out of the country...

[ROFL1]

Ahh...no. You're not going to see any posts by me in that thread.

Besides...If I were to bitch about them moving overseas it would be because the government was forcing them to go to be competitive. Like tmleadr03 says...how does that not fit with anything I've said here? That's right...it doesn't.

[Sharpienads]

Wow! tough crowd on this topic.

I am always divided on these issues. My libertarian side says Laissez Faire. But my conservative side says protectionism. But I think the libertarian side would be better for all concerned.

How is protectionism a conservative idea?

[Bailey Guns]

How is protectionism a conservative idea?

Oohhh, oohhh...I know, I know. Pick me, pick me!

[tmleadr03]

Wow! tough crowd on this topic.

I am always divided on these issues. My libertarian side says Laissez Faire. But my conservative side says protectionism. But I think the libertarian side would be better for all concerned.

Economics is a science. This means you can use logic and math to understand and work with it.

The two main branches of economics are Keynesian and Hayek.

What we see being enacted currently is what Sir John Maynard Keynes thought was a good idea. Government control of the economy. Either through influence or direct "stimulation" via the tax code and/or government loans. In this you have a few people deciding what is best for the whole economy.

Hayek was for less government control and regulations. This is not popular with the politicians due to the power being with the people they govern. Politicians do not like not having power. A true free market is the complete lack of government intervention. Until we have a free market in money that will never happen. By that I mean banks should issue their own money, not a federally mandated gold standard or fiat money like we have now. Either of those are a monopoly and give too much control to the government. Control the money, control the people.

These are simplistic but very well done.

d0nERTFo-Sk

GTQnarzmTOc

[Sharpienads]

Oohhh, oohhh...I know, I know. Pick me, pick me!

Uh, yes, you in the back. Go ahead.

[Sharpienads]

I don't think I have a problem with the gold standard. I do have a problem with our current system of printing money so we have more money.

[tmleadr03]

I don't think I have a problem with the gold standard. I do have a problem with our current system of printing money so we have more money.

The day a person realizes exactly how much that 20 dollar bill is truly worth is a scary day for that person.

[Bailey Guns]

Wait a minute... Are you saying my $20 paper bill isn't really worth $20? I'm shocked...shocked, I tell you.

[tmleadr03]

Wait a minute... Are you saying my $20 paper bill isn't really worth $20? I'm shocked...shocked, I tell you.

What is 20 dollars?

[jhood001]

The day a person realizes exactly how much that 20 dollar bill is truly worth is a scary day for that person.

And when someone realizes that in our current system, there can be no money without debt, and that there is not enough money to pay all debt is also a pretty scary day.

[Bailey Guns]

The basic monetary unit of the US, Canada, Australia, and certain countries in the Pacific, Caribbean, Southeast Asia, Africa, and South America:
the basic monetary unit of the United States, equal to 100 cents$20 would be 20 of those things.

[jhood001]

What is 20 dollars?

20 units of someone else's debt that you hold in your hands in paper form.

[Bailey Guns]

And when someone realizes that in our current system, there can be no money without debt...

Not sure I understand that.

[jhood001]

Not sure I understand that.

Not many people do.

A lot of this documentary is mumbo-jumbo, but it lays it all out there fairly well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU

[Bailey Guns]

Then what if every single dollar was backed by gold?

[tmleadr03]

Then what if every single dollar was backed by gold?

How much gold per dollar? Who gets to decide that?

[Bailey Guns]

I guess the market does. Oh, no. Wait. I do.

[jhood001]

Oh, no. Wait. I do.

If you are willing to give me a discount, I will back this measure!

[Bailey Guns]

10% off. If you buy in bulk.

[tmleadr03]

I guess the market does. Oh, no. Wait. I do.

No the .gov would set it. They would say from here on out x amount of gold equals 1 dollar.

[hollohas]

if you can make doodad here for $5 but choose to make offshore at 1$ we need to charge an extra $4 tarrif to remove the lure to move the job of making the doodad offshore.


argue/discuss/debate

I haven't read through the next 7 pages yet (been out of town) but I agree with this 1000%.

[Byte Stryke]

I haven't read through the next 7 pages yet (been out of town) but I agree with this 1000%.


uh oh... here we go again.

Hollahas, recant now before you are berated and told how stupid you are and that the current system of state sanction profiteering is the only way.


[ROFL1]

[tmleadr03]

uh oh... here we go again.

Hollahas, recant now before you are berated and told how stupid you are and that the current system of state sanction profiteering is the only way.


[ROFL1]

If someone stated that it was not me. And if it was posted I glossed over it. Can you quote it for me so I can respond?

[Sharpienads]

uh oh... here we go again.

Hollahas, recant now before you are berated and told how stupid you are and that the current system of state sanction profiteering is the only way.


[ROFL1]

I also said no such thing, but feel that this was in part directed at me. Can you point out where I, or anyone else said that?

[Bailey Guns]

Not agreeing with you, Byte, is a far cry from saying you're stupid.

[Byte Stryke]

I Just said that to see who would jump up and say
"THATS NOT WHAT I SAID!"


and it worked


[ROFL1][ROFL1][ROFL1]

I Love you guys... I really do.
[LOL]

[hollohas]

uh oh... here we go again.

Hollahas, recant now before you are berated and told how stupid you are and that the current system of state sanction profiteering is the only way.


[ROFL1]

Nah, I won't recant. I'm going to stick with you on this.

Do I think other countries should have to pay a tariff for the luxury of selling goods in our country... absolutely. Do I also think our country should have more incentives for companies to manufacture here (mainly lower taxes)...absol-freaking-lutely. Both are good for America. Why can't we do both??????????

Making it more expensive to import things is the same thing as saying make it cheaper to manufacture here. It's the same damn thing.

Charge a tariff on imports to make them more expensive than goods produced here OR reduce the cost of goods manufactured here to make them cheaper than imports.

The first part - Make it more expensive to import into the US.

I think NAFTA was a disaster and has helped us get to this sorry state we are in.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/US_Trade_Balance_1980_2010.svg/675px-US_Trade_Balance_1980_2010.svg.png

Do you know what I see in this graph? The trade deficit growing exponentially immediately following the NAFTA agreement even though it was relativity steady before it...

Free Trade is BS. If you want jobs then make it more expensive to make things elsewhere. Oh, you want the freedom to move your company to China...have at it. You get that freedom when you're in the US. It's the freedom to leave. But we have no obligation to give you ANYTHING once you're gone. What's so wrong with giving our own American people a leg up?

Second part - Make it cheaper to manufacture here.

I think the 40% cooperate tax that was cited is insane. But I don't think it's the main reason companies move overseas. The main reason would be labor costs IMO. (the company I work for did this). And I believe it is unions, not minimum wage, that creates such a big difference in labor costs in manufacturing. An example: "Foreign" car manufactures continue to build more plants in the US and increase the percentage of US-sourced components in their vehicles while "domestic" manufactures are further reducing the amount American manufactured components every year. "Domestic" manufactures are looking to cut costs, why? Well the cost of their cars isn't going down...so, um...they have to cut costs on components because the cost of their labor is going up.

I do think that corporate taxes should be lowered as an incentive to keep manufacturing in the US. But if it was taxes alone you wouldn't be seeing all the new Subaru, Toyota, Honda and BMW plants in the USA. Therefore I also think something has to be done to keep labor costs down as well. Even if the tax rate is 0% it won't make a bit difference if it is a 95% savings in labor to just move it to Mexico. The free market isn't controlling labor costs, the unions are. And the unions have no interest in keeping labor costs in line with what the market will pay for the product they make.

Look, it's time we stop trying to find the one golden answer to our problems. We have a shit ton of problems that will take a shit tons of answers. Lower taxes, increase tariffs, kick the unions to the curb...we needs to start doing it all.

[tmleadr03]

Nah, I won't recant. I'm going to stick with you on this.

Do I think other countries should have to pay a tariff for the luxury of selling goods in our country... absolutely. Do I also think our country should have more incentives for companies to manufacture here (mainly lower taxes)...absol-freaking-lutely. Both are good for America. Why can't we do both??????????

Making it more expensive to import things is the same thing as saying make it cheaper to manufacture here. It's the same damn thing.

Charge a tariff on imports to make them more expensive than goods produced here OR reduce the cost of goods manufactured here to make them cheaper than imports.

The first part - Make it more expensive to import into the US.

I think NAFTA was a disaster and has helped us get to this sorry state we are in.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/US_Trade_Balance_1980_2010.svg/675px-US_Trade_Balance_1980_2010.svg.png

Do you know what I see in this graph? The trade deficit growing exponentially immediately following the NAFTA agreement even though it was relativity steady before it...

Free Trade is BS. If you want jobs then make it more expensive to make things elsewhere. Oh, you want the freedom to move your company to China...have at it. You get that freedom when you're in the US. It's the freedom to leave. But we have no obligation to give you ANYTHING once you're gone. What's so wrong with giving our own American people a leg up?

Second part - Make it cheaper to manufacture here.

I think the 40% cooperate tax that was cited is insane. But I don't think it's the main reason companies move overseas. The main reason would be labor costs IMO. (the company I work for did this). And I believe it is unions, not minimum wage, that creates such a big difference in labor costs in manufacturing. An example: "Foreign" car manufactures continue to build more plants in the US and increase the percentage of US-sourced components in their vehicles while "domestic" manufactures are further reducing the amount American manufactured components every year. "Domestic" manufactures are looking to cut costs, why? Well the cost of their cars isn't going down...so, um...they have to cut costs on components because the cost of their labor is going up.

I do think that corporate taxes should be lowered as an incentive to keep manufacturing in the US. But if it was taxes alone you wouldn't be seeing all the new Subaru, Toyota, Honda and BMW plants in the USA. Therefore I also think something has to be done to keep labor costs down as well. Even if the tax rate is 0% it won't make a bit difference if it is a 95% savings in labor to just move it to Mexico. The free market isn't controlling labor costs, the unions are. And the unions have no interest in keeping labor costs in line with what the market will pay for the product they make.

Look, it's time we stop trying to find the one golden answer to our problems. We have a shit ton of problems that will take a shit tons of answers. Lower taxes, increase tariffs, kick the unions to the curb...we needs to start doing it all.

Two words. Smoot and Hawley.

[Bailey Guns]

If you're not paying 40% in taxes labor doesn't seem to take as much of a bite.

On the other hand, certain workers have to realize at some point it's not worth $25 per hour plus a lucrative benefits/retirement package to tighten a couple of bolts on an assembly line. Many companies are getting to the point they just can't afford that sort of unsustainable pay package any longer. It's a painful lesson unions are going to have to face whether they like it or not.

[tmleadr03]

If you're not paying 40% in taxes labor doesn't seem to take as much of a bite.

On the other hand, certain workers have to realize at some point it's not worth $25 per hour plus a lucrative benefits/retirement package to tighten a couple of bolts on an assembly line. Many companies are getting to the point they just can't afford that sort of unsustainable pay package any longer. It's a painful lesson unions are going to have to face whether they like it or not.

It always bothered me in an economic sense that UAW workers made more to assemble the vehicles then people like I do to work on them. The UAW only know how to tighten the bolts on one section, I know how to tighten the bolts on all of the vehicle. Not to mention the physics, chemistry, computer programming and thermodynamics I need to understand to diagnosis a modern day vehicle. Hell, I even work with fiber optics on some of them.

[hollohas]

Two words. Smoot and Hawley.

The global economy is a million times different now than it was in the 30's. It is simply a bad idea to base today's global economic strategies on an era that doesn't have the same issues as we have now...

[Bailey Guns]

I hear ya. I'm generally VERY anti-union nor am I sympathetic to their bullshit. The unions will be the first to throw newer workers under the bus when times get tough.

[Sharpienads]

There is a golden answer. It's called the free market. It's called the federal government only doing what they're supposed to do. Every time they get involved in the market, there are "unintended consequences". In a free market, if you don't like a company's business practices, than don't do business with them. If enough people feel the same way, they will go out of business.

We have to be responsible consumers. Tariffs don't create responsible consumers, they try to control consumer habits. And just like with everything else, the more we rely on the government to do for us, the less we do for ourselves.

I for one believe in the free market. Sure, there will be some government involvement. There's no getting away from that. But the less government there is and the more responsible we are for ourselves, the better.

[tmleadr03]

The global economy is a million times different now than it was in the 30's. It is simply a bad idea to base today's global economic strategies on an era that doesn't have the same issues as we have now...

Granted it is a different world but what did we learn from Smoot-Hawley? That if we raise our tariff, everyone else will as well. Do you see that outcome being different? We raise our tariffs and now it is more expensive to buy goods produced outside this country. They raise tariffs and now it is too expensive for them to buy our goods. Who wins?


How would the outcome be different now?


I say drop corporate taxes (actually I really like a flat tax on everyone, corporations included of about 15% or a consumption tax i.e. The Fair Tax) and make it more profitable for manufactures to bring business here. The only tariffs we should have should match EXACTLY what the other country is doing to us. They tack on 10% we tack on 10%. That is it.

[Sharpienads]

I hear ya. I'm generally VERY anti-union nor am I sympathetic to their bullshit. The unions will be the first to throw newer workers under the bus when times get tough.

I don't have a problem with collective bargaining or unions if:

1-One union per company
2-Totally voluntary
3-Secret Ballots
4-The owner doesn't have to give you what you want
5-You are prepared to get fired because you want too much

But one union (UAW) for 3 different, competing companies? How does that make any sense at all?

[Byte Stryke]

The global economy is a million times different now than it was in the 30's. It is simply a bad idea to base today's global economic strategies on an era that doesn't have the same issues as we have now...

agreed


I hear ya. I'm generally VERY anti-union nor am I sympathetic to their bullshit. The unions will be the first to throw newer workers under the bus when times get tough.

agreed


and that's all i got ta say about that.

[Marlin]

You guys do realize that the minimum wage is tied by a percentage to the upper level union pay scale?

I can't remember all the figures, but the upper level union scale has to be "X" $ above the minimum wage.

So, the unions always have a vested interest in making sure that the MW is raised every so often.

That is the main reason it needs to go.

[Byte Stryke]

You guys do realize that the minimum wage is tied by a percentage to the upper level union pay scale?

I can't remember all the figures, but the upper level union scale has to be "X" $ above the minimum wage.

So, the unions always have a vested interest in making sure that the MW is raised every so often.

That is the main reason it needs to go.


[Eek3]

So you would pull the rug from under everyone... to "get back" at the unions?

[tmleadr03]

[Eek3]

So you would pull the rug from under everyone... to "get back" at the unions?

Minimum wage is a bad thing anyways. Unions, while they have done good in the past, are a cancer on this country.

[Sharpienads]

The minimum wage is not sound economic policy. It'e the same kind of thinking that says, "gas is too expensive, let's cap it at $3.00 per gallon". Another very bad idea.

When you put a price floor or ceiling on a product or service, you upset the market equilibrium price, and you either get shortages or surpluses. Either way, the market isn't functioning as productive as it could be.

And if the MW is such a great idea, like another guy said, why stop at $7.50, or whatever it's at now? Why not make it $15.00? Then everyone would be making twice as much. Hell, make it $20.00 an hour, then everyone will be even better off!

[tmleadr03]

The minimum wage is not sound economic policy. It'e the same kind of thinking that says, "gas is too expensive, let's cap it at $3.00 per gallon". Another very bad idea.

When you put a price floor or ceiling on a product or service, you upset the market equilibrium price, and you either get shortages or surpluses. Either way, the market isn't functioning as productive as it could be.

And if the MW is such a great idea, like another guy said, why stop at $7.50, or whatever it's at now? Why not make it $15.00? Then everyone would be making twice as much. Hell, make it $20.00 an hour, then everyone will be even better off!

And with the minimum wage you put upward pressure on costs to consumers.

We have either a surplus of workers due to the MW or a shortage of jobs due to it.

[Byte Stryke]

while I Agree that caps and floors are a bad practice.. floors on wage has its place.
not to mention, can you imagine the layoffs and dumps if the floor were removed?

there would no longer be a middle class.

you cannot create or remove limits without drastic repercussions.
Now I would agree that it needs to just sit there... and unions need to go the hell away. but to say "Lets abolish the minimum wage" is foolish at best... catastrophic at the worst

[tmleadr03]

while I Agree that caps and floors are a bad practice.. floors on wage has its place.
not to mention, can you imagine the layoffs and dumps if the floor were removed?

there would no longer be a middle class.

you cannot create or remove limits without drastic repercussions.
Now I would agree that it needs to just sit there... and unions need to go the hell away. but to say "Lets abolish the minimum wage" is foolish at best... catastrophic at the worst

Layoffs? Imagine the hiring boom! And shortly after that the drop in end cost to the consumers due to the cost of doing business dropping and all the companies competing to get your business.

The limit was created with drastic repercussions. Removing it will just return us to the way it was.

[Sharpienads]

And with the minimum wage you put upward pressure on costs to consumers.

We have either a surplus of workers due to the MW or a shortage of jobs due to it.

Correct. A company isn't going to cut into their profit margin very much, if at all, to compensate for an increase in labor costs. They are going to raise the prices on the products or services they sell.

When cost to employ somebody is greater than the revenue that employee produces, that person doesn't stay employed for very long, and you have a surplus in labor.

[Sharpienads]

while I Agree that caps and floors are a bad practice.. floors on wage has its place.
not to mention, can you imagine the layoffs and dumps if the floor were removed?

there would no longer be a middle class.

you cannot create or remove limits without drastic repercussions.
Now I would agree that it needs to just sit there... and unions need to go the hell away. but to say "Lets abolish the minimum wage" is foolish at best... catastrophic at the worst

I don't think you can argue for one and not the other. Labor follows the laws of supply and demand just like everything else.

[Sharpienads]

The limit was created with drastic repercussions. Removing it will just return us to the way it was.

+1

[Byte Stryke]

Layoffs? Imagine the hiring boom! And shortly after that the drop in end cost to the consumers due to the cost of doing business dropping and all the companies competing to get your business.

The limit was created with drastic repercussions. Removing it will just return us to the way it was.


I Can barely pay my bills now!
Imagine 45 cents a day???

as it is now you have DBAs with MASTERS taking pay cuts to 60K

imagine if we could import, not have to pay minimum wage....
IT would be flooded from Corporate sponsorships
Machinists/Mechanics would all speak Pushtu

because yes, they WILL live 40 people to a one room apartment.
go look in Kuwait.

I wouldn't be buying a fucking thing.

[tmleadr03]

I Can barely pay my bills now!
Imagine 45 cents a day???

as it is now you have DBAs with MASTERS taking pay cuts to 60K

imagine if we could import, not have to pay minimum wage....
IT would be flooded from Corporate sponsorships
Machinists/Mechanics would all speak Pushtu

because yes, they WILL live 40 people to a one room apartment.
go look in Kuwait.

I wouldn't be buying a fucking thing.

You're right, if they do not have a minimum wage they would just hire you for zero dollars a day and force you to work for them.

[Marlin]

Get paid what your worth. Don't like it, get a better job, get an education, improve your situation. The government should not dictate what a "minimum wage" is. Especially if it is tied to a corrupt union official.


Yes, There is no reason that an entry level job should be worth more than $5 an hour. Some Are, Maybe, Depends on the business.

If you are past the age of 30 working for minimum wage, Your either doing a part time gig for extra $$$. Or, You're either too stupid or too lazy to improve your lot in life.

Market value. The good people will rise to a decent wage, the bad will either improve or be happy where they are.

[Byte Stryke]

with the removal of the minimum wage it would be cheaper to sponsor H1B visas from Pakistan, India, Philippines, and Africa

Instead of dollars per hour, you are talking about dollars per month.

you would be feeding the corporate greed and giving them cause to import labor under worker visa programs as "we cannot find anyone in this country that will perform this task at this wage with this efficiency."

translated to "we can import him, work him 12-16 hours a day and pay him $100 a month"

you really need to look at whats going on in other countries that do this.

[Drilldov2.0]

until we penalize companies for moving jobs outside of the country we will continue to go broke.

if you can make doodad here for $5 but choose to make offshore at 1$ we need to charge an extra $4 tarrif to remove the lure to move the job of making the doodad offshore.


argue/discuss/debate

Thought we already did that with increased taxes when the company moves profits made overseas back into the country. As I understand the companies just invest their profits somewhere outside of the country to avoid the additional taxes, which just weakens us and strengthens the other country.

Not to mention, that if we did charge that extra tariff, it would only be reflected in the final cost of the product as the company would just raise the price and the consumers in the USA would pay more.

[Byte Stryke]

Thought we already did that with increased taxes when the company moves profits made overseas back into the country. As I understand the companies just invest their profits somewhere outside of the country to avoid the additional taxes, which just weakens us and strengthens the other country.

Not to mention, that if we did charge that extra tariff, it would only be reflected in the final cost of the product as the company would just raise the price and the consumers in the USA would pay more.


the point is to make it as cost effective to make products here instead of moving plants offshore
doodad made it whateverland $2.00 + $4.50 tariff = $6.50
vs.
doodad made in US for $6.50

which one will you buy?

don't tell me people wont buy something with a higher tax on it than value....
People smoke every day

[tmleadr03]

the point is to make it as cost effective to make products here instead of moving plants offshore
doodad made it whateverland $2.00 + $4.50 tariff = $6.50
vs.
doodad made in US for $6.50

which one will you buy?

don't tell me people wont buy something with a higher tax on it than value....
People smoke every day

Then what happens is that our goods that we try to sell overseas are tariffed and we can't sell anything to anyone. Then our production drops and the good coming in to the US are still high even though our workers are not working as much due to the factories laying people off because they can not sell their goods, even with the protectionist policy in place. This is what happened when Smoot-Hawley was enacted.

[Drilldov2.0]

the point is to make it as cost effective to make products here instead of moving plants offshore
doodad made it whateverland $2.00 + $4.50 tariff = $6.50
vs.
doodad made in US for $6.50

which one will you buy?

don't tell me people wont buy something with a higher tax on it than value....
People smoke every day

People smoke everyday because of the addictive nature of the drug. A doodad made here or elsewhere doesn't have a physical addiction built into it. Poor analogy.

If you want to make it cost effective to manufacture in the USA, reduce govt. regs and taxes. In other words keep the govt. out of business. I don't understand how if the govt. can't even efficiently run themselves, why would you trust them to try and regulate business' in the USA? Punishing companies trying to escape the over-regulated and over-taxed business world in the USA with more tariffs solves nothing. Provide an environment for companies to flourish and they will stay here instead of moving production to another country. (Where they not only face USA taxes but are also paying the countries tax and other expenses.) Now you want to add an additional tariff for them to bring the products back here? No wonder we get most of our goods made elsewhere.

[Byte Stryke]

well I hear alot of criticism about taxing cheap goods coming in and no other realistic proposals
how you have a better chance of pissing through a cheerio at 200 yards with an 8 knot cross wind before the .gov drops taxes.

Call Udall and Bennett and ask them to take a pay cut.
tell them you don't want trillions of dollars going to foreign aid for countries that kill our citizens and piss on our laws. let me know how that works out...

you cannot stop a river, you can only guide it.

[Byte Stryke]

People smoke everyday because of the addictive nature of the drug. A doodad made here or elsewhere doesn't have a physical addiction built into it. Poor analogy.



remember that when the next iWidget comes out and there are people lined up camping out a week in advanced to get it.

;)

[Drilldov2.0]

remember that when the next iWidget comes out and there are people lined up camping out a week in advanced to get it.

;)

You just perfectly described exactly how nobama was elected.

Still does not explain how increasing tariffs on American companies which chose to manufacture abroad would somehow increase th desire to manufacture in the USA.

[tmleadr03]

well I hear alot of criticism about taxing cheap goods coming in and no other realistic proposals
how you have a better chance of pissing through a cheerio at 200 yards with an 8 knot cross wind before the .gov drops taxes.

Call Udall and Bennett and ask them to take a pay cut.
tell them you don't want trillions of dollars going to foreign aid for countries that kill our citizens and piss on our laws. let me know how that works out...

you cannot stop a river, you can only guide it.

Oh for fucks sake.

So you are in favor of raising taxes. Good for you.

[Tweety Bird]

This is a really good discussion and I have to say I come down squarely on the same side as tmleadr and Sharpie.

Another one of the unintended consequences of tariffs is that it encourages waste and slothfulness amongst US workers.

Consider:

Obama decides to place tariffs to make a T-shirt that's made by The Indonesia Garment Company, LTD the same as a T-shirt made by Des Moines T-Shirt, Inc. So now, that shirt costs $18.50, regardless of where it's made. Des Moines T-Shirts, Inc. now knows that if they raise their price to $19.75, they don't have to worry about competition because Obama will just raise the tariff by another buck and a quarter to make things "fair". Soon, the other US T-shirt companies realize what's going on, and they can follow suit. And the unions in these T-shirt factories know they can bash the company over the head with demands for higher and higher wages, benefits and work rules because they know the company can just raise their prices. Pretty soon, we're paying T-shirt makers $30 an hour for a job that's probably worth about $7.

Sure, this is a simplified and exaggerated example. But tariffs have unintended consequences, just like most (read: all) government intervention.

Let the free markets thrive and watch the economy boom back to life.

[Drilldov2.0]

well I hear alot of criticism about taxing cheap goods coming in and no other realistic proposals
how you have a better chance of pissing through a cheerio at 200 yards with an 8 knot cross wind before the .gov drops taxes.

Call Udall and Bennett and ask them to take a pay cut.
tell them you don't want trillions of dollars going to foreign aid for countries that kill our citizens and piss on our laws. let me know how that works out...

you cannot stop a river, you can only guide it.

We don't spend trillions on foreign aid. Where did you get those numbers?

We borrow more in one month than we send in foreign aid each year.

I gave you a realistic proposal. We just have to wait until the next election cycle to put like-minded people in office and throw out the tards there now.

[Byte Stryke]

We don't spend trillions on foreign aid. Where did you get those numbers?

We borrow more in one month than we send in foreign aid each year.

I gave you a realistic proposal. We just have to wait until the next election cycle to put like-minded people in office and throw out the tards there now.



you are absolutely correct, we give away 25 Billion per year
That is right about 300 Billion since 2000

keep in mind that does not include disaster relieve, welfare projects, humanitarian projects, U.N. Relief or military aid.

its not in the trillions... that was an exaggeration... got me.

but its far more than I would like.

now, Back to the economic tax/money/wage thing...

So if we are so against minimum wage and for free trade, why does everyone bitch about Wal-Mart?

Maybe I just do not understand.

[yosemite]

you cannot buy jobs, something has to be sold to create a job, you cannot increase sales by taxation, of the product, the consumer,the worker, or the manufacturer! without sale of a product, there is no reason to manufacture, sell, service, and without these no job Creation, stimulation Vote Barry out!

[Sharpienads]

So if we are so against minimum wage and for free trade, why does everyone bitch about Wal-Mart?

Maybe I just do not understand.

Because Walmart is "evil" and "greedy". And it's a corporation, and it's corporates do corporationy things.

[tmleadr03]

you are absolutely correct, we give away 25 Billion per year
That is right about 300 Billion since 2000

keep in mind that does not include disaster relieve, welfare projects, humanitarian projects, U.N. Relief or military aid.

its not in the trillions... that was an exaggeration... got me.

but its far more than I would like.

now, Back to the economic tax/money/wage thing...

So if we are so against minimum wage and for free trade, why does everyone bitch about Wal-Mart?

Maybe I just do not understand.

Uh... what? You are the first person to mention Wally world in this thread. I have not seen it mentioned on this board before. Are you just making things up now?

[Bailey Guns]

Actually, "I hate Walmart" threads pop up now and then. It's pretty common. First I recall about it in this thread, though.

[Byte Stryke]

I Never said any specific person said it or that it was thread specific...

Sorry Tmleader, no points this round
:D

[streetglideok]

I couldnt bring myself to read thru 11 pages on this thread. Since some think I am in love with Obama and give idiotic statements, then I dont expect many to read what I say. So, I am going to say what I think anyways, and who really cares? lol

This country is in a mess for more reasons then you can count. It started a generation ago when we started to shift from a manufacturing economy, that produced goods, to a service, or taco bell economy. When that happened, decent paying jobs starting going to the wayside, and we started down this road. People started buying at walmart and other chain stores. We then joined NAFTA, and sent jobs to mexico, and followed with the asian equal to it, and opened the door to china. People were silly enough to think china would buy our stuff, and improve jobs here. A trip to MAO-mart, err walmart, will show you otherwise. Now we have a huge portion of the country on food stamps, working for walmart, for low wages, and cant buy anything decent, so we can no longer sustain the economy as is. This has been made worse by a poor education system, from first grade to grad school. No one out of high school it seems has a firm grasp of our economy, how it works, and what helps and kills it. No one is interested in history, to see what our ancestors screwed up, so we dont repeat the same mistakes. We have college teachers trying to teach socialism to their students, and these new business management/accounting models. We have reached a point, that it will take years to correct, and will take a nationwide effort to fix. It will span several presidents before we will see solid results. And unlike the presidents we have seen for some time, we need intelligent presidents who believe in this country, and love this country.

The only way things will change here, is everyone needs to change their mindset. Get rid of this, "its somebody elses fault" thought process. We need to stop sending money to other countries, via means of support, oil and goods. We need to shoot for being a goods export country again. Make others send us their moldy money. Unions are going to have to get over themselves, and cut their wages, and their perks alot, so we can compete. We need to get out of trade agreements with asia, and mexico. If need be, cut the corp. tax rate. Start requiring 4 years of econ to graduate high school, and a diploma to get a drivers license. Close the southern borders. Start downsizing the federal government. The list goes on and on. People's attitude need to change. Theres too much of the what are you going to do for me, and dont you dare think Im doing something for you without a cut for me mentality. That all needs to change. Scoff if you like, but a country of people with that craptastic attitude is what helped bring us to our knees. Just because you own a gun, and believe in the second amendment doesnt make you a great person, or the opposite of Obama.

[Byte Stryke]

I couldnt bring myself to read thru 11 pages on this thread. Since some think I am in love with Obama and give idiotic statements, then I dont expect many to read what I say. So, I am going to say what I think anyways, and who really cares? lol

This country is in a mess for more reasons then you can count. It started a generation ago when we started to shift from a manufacturing economy, that produced goods, to a service, or taco bell economy. When that happened, decent paying jobs starting going to the wayside, and we started down this road. People started buying at walmart and other chain stores. We then joined NAFTA, and sent jobs to mexico, and followed with the asian equal to it, and opened the door to china. People were silly enough to think china would buy our stuff, and improve jobs here. A trip to MAO-mart, err walmart, will show you otherwise. Now we have a huge portion of the country on food stamps, working for walmart, for low wages, and cant buy anything decent, so we can no longer sustain the economy as is. This has been made worse by a poor education system, from first grade to grad school. No one out of high school it seems has a firm grasp of our economy, how it works, and what helps and kills it. No one is interested in history, to see what our ancestors screwed up, so we dont repeat the same mistakes. We have college teachers trying to teach socialism to their students, and these new business management/accounting models. We have reached a point, that it will take years to correct, and will take a nationwide effort to fix. It will span several presidents before we will see solid results. And unlike the presidents we have seen for some time, we need intelligent presidents who believe in this country, and love this country.

The only way things will change here, is everyone needs to change their mindset. Get rid of this, "its somebody elses fault" thought process. We need to stop sending money to other countries, via means of support, oil and goods. We need to shoot for being a goods export country again. Make others send us their moldy money. Unions are going to have to get over themselves, and cut their wages, and their perks alot, so we can compete. We need to get out of trade agreements with asia, and mexico. If need be, cut the corp. tax rate. Start requiring 4 years of econ to graduate high school, and a diploma to get a drivers license. Close the southern borders. Start downsizing the federal government. The list goes on and on. People's attitude need to change. Theres too much of the what are you going to do for me, and dont you dare think Im doing something for you without a cut for me mentality. That all needs to change. Scoff if you like, but a country of people with that craptastic attitude is what helped bring us to our knees. Just because you own a gun, and believe in the second amendment doesnt make you a great person, or the opposite of Obama.



http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/clap%20clap%20clap/grand/applause_gif.gif

I just wish I could believe this was possible.

[streetglideok]

Me too, me too[Bang]

[Mobat555]

I couldnt bring myself to read thru 11 pages on this thread. Since some think I am in love with Obama and give idiotic statements, then I dont expect many to read what I say. So, I am going to say what I think anyways, and who really cares? lol

This country is in a mess for more reasons then you can count. It started a generation ago when we started to shift from a manufacturing economy, that produced goods, to a service, or taco bell economy. When that happened, decent paying jobs starting going to the wayside, and we started down this road. People started buying at walmart and other chain stores. We then joined NAFTA, and sent jobs to mexico, and followed with the asian equal to it, and opened the door to china. People were silly enough to think china would buy our stuff, and improve jobs here. A trip to MAO-mart, err walmart, will show you otherwise. Now we have a huge portion of the country on food stamps, working for walmart, for low wages, and cant buy anything decent, so we can no longer sustain the economy as is. This has been made worse by a poor education system, from first grade to grad school. No one out of high school it seems has a firm grasp of our economy, how it works, and what helps and kills it. No one is interested in history, to see what our ancestors screwed up, so we dont repeat the same mistakes. We have college teachers trying to teach socialism to their students, and these new business management/accounting models. We have reached a point, that it will take years to correct, and will take a nationwide effort to fix. It will span several presidents before we will see solid results. And unlike the presidents we have seen for some time, we need intelligent presidents who believe in this country, and love this country.

The only way things will change here, is everyone needs to change their mindset. Get rid of this, "its somebody elses fault" thought process. We need to stop sending money to other countries, via means of support, oil and goods. We need to shoot for being a goods export country again. Make others send us their moldy money. Unions are going to have to get over themselves, and cut their wages, and their perks alot, so we can compete. We need to get out of trade agreements with asia, and mexico. If need be, cut the corp. tax rate. Start requiring 4 years of econ to graduate high school, and a diploma to get a drivers license. Close the southern borders. Start downsizing the federal government. The list goes on and on. People's attitude need to change. Theres too much of the what are you going to do for me, and dont you dare think Im doing something for you without a cut for me mentality. That all needs to change. Scoff if you like, but a country of people with that craptastic attitude is what helped bring us to our knees. Just because you own a gun, and believe in the second amendment doesnt make you a great person, or the opposite of Obama.

[Alrigh]