Train!

[mcantar18c]

The owner of the BBQ across the street had a clear shot of him walking into the IHOP after he killed the lady motorcycle rider but didnt take it, citing "Tt was a pistol against an AK, what was I going to do?"

If you don't train, you wont trust yourself. And if you don't trust yourself, you won't be able to do what needs to be done. Unfortunately, all too often Joe Carry goes out and gets his CCW permit, buys whatever gun the guys on his gun forum are pushing for, and thinks he's prepared to face the evils that exist in this world because he can put decent groupings on paper at a square range.

Carrying a gun doesn't make you dangerous (good dangerous) any more than owning a welder makes you a fabricator. You need not only the tools, but the knowledge and practice to put those tools to use in the most effective and most efficient way.

The above quote was taken from an article about the recent shooting at the IHOP in Nevada.
In this case, the shot was at most 65 yards (Google Earth measure from door to door of his BBQ joint to the IHOP). While it may not be an easy point-and-shoot, 65 yards with a carry pistol is by no means difficult. I can consistently shoot MOH at 100m (ok, technically 97m) with my carry weapon, and there is no excuse for not being able to do so with yours.
The BBQ joint owner went outside when he heard the first gunshot, when the whackjob in need (of some ventilation) shot a woman on a Harley. The gunman was still outside walking towards the building, and had no knowledge of the BBQ guy's existence. If the BBQ guy wasn't comfortable shooting then and there, he had time to take a knee or otherwise steady himself for the shot without compromising himself.
Also, there was a parking lot in between the BBQ joint owner and the whackjob. A parking lot offers a good amount of visual cover (cars) and ballistic cover (engine blocks, curbs, etc.) to conceal and protect you while moving and/or taking fire. Again, the gunman was still outside at this point. It takes what, 4 seconds to cover 50m? Could have just as easily closed distance to between him and the gunman till he was at a point where he was comfortable to take the shot.
The BBQ joint owner now carries the burden of knowing he could have prevented 4 murders and chose not to because he didn't trust his abilities. Not only did his lack of training lead to a lack of confidence in taking a not-so-difficult shot, but also to an inability to respond to the situation (solving the perceived problem of not having a shot by closing distance or taking a steady shooting position).
This was a proactive fight. The BBW guy had the initiative. He had the element of surprise, and the luxury of being outside the focus of the gunman where he could choose how to respond on his own terms. There is absolutely no reason that he couldn't have done so.
Also, the "he has a better weapon, I'm screwed" mentality is in play here. It shouldn't matter if he's walking around with an AK and you have a 9mm. Practice refines skill, training builds confidence, and if you're proficient and confident in your abilities then it shouldn't matter if you're facing a 240B with a 10/22. If you aren't proficient and confident in your abilities, train until you are... then train some more.

Can you ring steel at 100m with your carry weapon(s)?
Do you know how to shoot effectively while moving at full speed?
Have you trained to get off the X while counterattacking and not trip over yourself?
Can you make effective use of cover if needed?
Do you have the mindset necessary to do what needs to be done?
Are you physically capable of doing these things? (Physical fitness, staying in shape, is as important a part of "maintaining your equipment" as cleaning your gun).
If not, there's a simple solution: TRAIN!

[trlcavscout]

I agree. I would have at least met him half way at a dead run before shooting if necesary. Better to try and fail then to explain your excuses to the media afterwards? Which direction you run when the shooting starts tells your whole story.

[Irving]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.
At that distance I'll just keep out of the line of fire. I don't carry so I can protect people who won't protect themselves.

[Great-Kazoo]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.

And i agree with you disagreeing. A miss from you is a potential homicide charge. I have a high confidence level of my shooting capabilities, that still does not under stress at 65 yards give me a clean shot. Getting closer if possible might change that scenario, again a pistol facing a rifle is 50/50 at best.

[trlcavscout]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.


If its a mugging, bank robbery etc where their are no gun shots fired its better to be a good witness but once shots are fired I believe its time to get involved if you can do so without injurying the wrong people. I agree with not takeing the 65yd shot, but if he had ran over their he "may" have saved at least one life?

Although I dont believe 65yds is to far for a handgun. Some believe handguns are for 10yds only just like they believe archery hunting is 20yds maximum.

[Irving]

Sure, maybe. I'd have to see the area to have a better picture of the scenario. I'm looking at this school across the street from me that is about 130 yards away door to door, and there's no way I'd cross the open ground to try and approach that school and get involved in some event.

[trlcavscout]

Sure, maybe. I'd have to see the area to have a better picture of the scenario. I'm looking at this school across the street from me that is about 130 yards away door to door, and there's no way I'd cross the open ground to try and approach that school and get involved in some event.


To each their own. To me ESPECIALLY a school, if I seen a guy heading towards the school shooting someone in the parking lot I would be on him like a fat kid on cake!!!

[BigMat]

I disagree, I think his not shooting was a good call-

A.) Not going to Monday morning quarterback on a shooting- that is nonsense, its heat of combat, and under stress everyone responds differently, regardless of training. Some freeze, some act, I don't care how much training you've had, all it does it help you not screw up if you are and actor. I have seen people go that suprised me and people that froze up that talked all day about how awesome they were, no way to know until it happens. And frankly, I won't hold it against either, good men in both groups, you just hope some quit the next day, and they usually do.
B.) maybe you can make that shot all day against steal, HE WASNT SHOOTING STEAL! That was a very long shot for a pistol on a two way range, under stress, against a well armed opponent. Ringing steal is one thing. Dropping an armed guy at range, under stress, with one shot, and NOT MISSING-

my reasons-
His backstop- people in IHOP, if he kills one, that's probably on him, at least civilly and emotionally
shooters backstop- he didn't care

His weapon - a pistol by no means puts a person down with one shot every time, I worked on an ambulance long enough to know, no pistol makes a promise, NONE. -he also had 8 shots, maybe 15
Shooters Weapon- well within its functional range with plenty more firepower to allow for misses.

His situation- alone, barely armed, surround by customers with no cover
Shooters situation- UNKNOWN at the time. alone, turns out, did he know that-nope, he could have had a driver, there could have been 5 more guys in the IHOP, could have had a bomb under his vest. He had no way of knowing these things.

His concern- Himself, his kids and wife to feed his customers.
Shooters concern- killing people

His cover- Cars=shitty cover. Shoot one sometime, they are shitty cover, Have you seen an engine block in a civic TINY. Also running across open ground AT a guy with an AK=NOT SMART


He made a good call, could he have stopped it, maybe, sure, but would he end up in a body bag- odds are good. Look at the Texas courthouse situation, the civi-CCW was well trained and armed with a 45 at close range inside, shooter had an AK and his back was turned. The civilian ended up in a body bag after putting two in a shooters chest, from close range! (shooter had body armor in Texas, the CCW in Carson had no idea this shooter did not)



I carry a gun for me and mine, if I can help someone else so be it, but I am not fighting a Bradley with a knife. Train all you want this was not a fight he was going to win 8 times out of 10. He was just waiting for a body bag if he pulled that trigger, along with a few of his customers probably. I blame him in no way, the safety of those who are inside belongs to the shooter first and themselves. They chose not to carry a firearm for self defense, why would he change that choice for them. If he went down, I'll be the people he saved wouldn't have stepped up to feed his wife and kids, that's on him.


I don't mean to be a jerk, but judging this guy isn't fair. And if I saw this shooting in his situation, I would de-ass the area, pronto.

[Irving]

To each their own. To me ESPECIALLY a school, if I seen a guy heading towards the school shooting someone in the parking lot I would be on him like a fat kid on cake!!!

You might not have a chance when you have to close over 100 yards before you get to him. Although, a guy running, screaming, and shooting at you, would make a pretty good distraction from the kids.

EDIT: The bar-b-que owner has a responsibility for the safety of his own customers as well, and shooting at a guy with a rifle, is a great way to have bullets coming your way.

[68Charger]

I wasn't there, don't know the circumstances, he's the one that has to live with his decision.

I'd like to think I'd find some way to help, rather than just watch it happen- don't know if I could live with the what-if's afterward if I did nothing.

Can I ring steel at 100yrds with my carry piece? I don't know, never tried- have been taught self-defense distance is much closer- but this would not have been self-defense, would have been defense of others.
may require a change of CCW to be able to- I've been looking at .357sig lately (not required for that distance, but it wouldn't hurt if I'm changing CCW gun anyway)

[mcantar18c]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

[BigMat]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun.

This thinking gets you shot.

MOH is enough to put one his gut/leg/chest? I have seen all of the locations take a pistol round (once 3 in the chest/gut), and the guy walk away, sometimes run. (Hell, just the other day worked with a person who got shot in the FACE and walked home!) NOT once have I seen a pistol round put a dude down from a single round in ANY of these spots except the ankle, he was crying, alot, and his ankle was a mess. The bullet or bone game was fun with that guy. If you plan to take a shot from that far against a well armed opponent, you need to get your groups smaller than than a pistol (6-8 MOA typically) can go.

You would need a clean DRT shot. The dude has an AK and you just made yourself target #1 = GAME OVER. This wasn't IDPA, hits barely count, you need to put the dude down right now, no easy feat with any firearm, much less a pistol. Worth note- I have seen no reason to trust pistols to get the job done, they are mean in the movies, a 12 gauge however, that's another story.

[trlcavscout]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

Exactly! I'm trackin battle. A guy entering any business with an AK or anygun for that matter in his hand, dropping people in the parking lot needs stopped! Where as a guy robbing the circle K your in gettin your big gulp on who hasnt even loaded a round in the chamber doesnt really deserve getting worked up over, until he raises the bar.

[68Charger]

This thinking gets you shot.
Agreed- at least shot AT, but:


You would need a clean DRT shot. The dude has an AK and you just made yourself target #1 = GAME OVER. This wasn't IDPA, hits barely count, you need to put the dude down right now, no easy feat with any firearm, much less a pistol.
This guy turned the gun on himself- if you wounded him, there's a chance he'd just off himself, when you're dealing with those kind of mentally unstable types.

Is there a good chance he'd shoot me, even kill me? Sure, the odds are not in the pistol's favor... but again, I'm sure living with myself after doing nothing would be very difficult.

the other side is that I wasn't there, I didn't see cover (or lack of), and where innocent bystanders were- I haven't even looked at the layout of the area. If I worked there every day, I'd sure know it.

[mcantar18c]

I disagree, I think his not shooting was a good call-

A.) Not going to Monday morning quarterback on a shooting- that is nonsense, its heat of combat, and under stress everyone responds differently, regardless of training. Some freeze, some act, I don't care how much training you've had, all it does it help you not screw up if you are and actor. I have seen people go that suprised me and people that froze up that talked all day about how awesome they were, no way to know until it happens. And frankly, I won't hold it against either, good men in both groups, you just hope some quit the next day, and they usually do.

While I agree about armchairing it being useless, the fact is that he was in a perfect position to do something and made a conscious decision not to. That's not something I can support or give him an "its ok, I understand, nobody blames you" for.
While there's no way to know how you will respond in a high stress situation unless you've had the experience, you CAN stack the odds in your favor by having the right mindset.

B.) maybe you can make that shot all day against steal, HE WASNT SHOOTING STEAL! That was a very long shot for a pistol on a two way range, under stress, against a well armed opponent. Ringing steal is one thing. Dropping an armed guy at range, under stress, with one shot, and NOT MISSING-

Its all about training. Shooting steel is one thing... shooting steel while sprinting, taking cover, from behind cover, through cover, etc. is another.
How armed your opponent is has nothing to do with it. Its the conditions of the situation... is he even aware of your existence, who has the initiative, etc... that matter.
And nobody said anything about only taking one shot...

my reasons-
His backstop- people in IHOP, if he kills one, that's probably on him, at least civilly and emotionally
shooters backstop- he didn't care

Was his backstop a glass storefront? Or was it a brick wall on the side of the building? If it was glass, why couldn't he move to a position where he could take a safe shot by closing distance or changing his position relative to the target to where he has a safe backstop?

His weapon - a pistol by no means puts a person down with one shot every time, I worked on an ambulance long enough to know, no pistol makes a promise, NONE. -he also had 8 shots, maybe 15
Shooters Weapon- well within its functional range with plenty more firepower to allow for misses.

I can't think of any situation where when using a pistol you should stop after one shot. Shoot them to the ground.

His situation- alone, barely armed, surround by customers with no cover
Shooters situation- UNKNOWN at the time. alone, turns out, did he know that-nope, he could have had a driver, there could have been 5 more guys in the IHOP, could have had a bomb under his vest. He had no way of knowing these things.

That wouldn't stop me from trying. Only changes how you go about it. Possibly more than one gunman? Take cover before you shoot.

His concern- Himself, his kids and wife to feed his customers.
Shooters concern- killing people

What are the shooter's intentions? Is he targeting IHOP or just moving around shooting things? Could he decide to come have a taste of BBQ where me and my customers are? No reason to sit and wait to find out, he's already identified himself as a significant threat and needs to be taken down, and I'm in a good position to do so.

His cover- Cars=shitty cover. Shoot one sometime, they are shitty cover, Have you seen an engine block in a civic TINY. Also running across open ground AT a guy with an AK=NOT SMART

Cars provide shitty cover, but good concealment. In a parking lot full of cars, you can move around under concealment. I doubt there was nothing bigger than a Civic in that lot... this is America, and we love our trucks/SUVs.

He made a good call, could he have stopped it, maybe, sure, but would he end up in a body bag- odds are good. Look at the Texas courthouse situation, the civi-CCW was well trained and armed with a 45 at close range inside, shooter had an AK and his back was turned. The civilian ended up in a body bag after putting two in a shooters chest, from close range! (shooter had body armor in Texas, the CCW in Carson had no idea this shooter did not)

This goes back to training. An "active shooter" may very well have some form of armor on... so target areas where you know he doesn't. The hip area is a large enough target, will cause significant blood loss and generally immobilize them. Train to be capable of doing what needs to be done, and also to be able to learn from past situations. Learn everything you can to help you properly assess and act when you need to.

I carry a gun for me and mine, if I can help someone else so be it, but I am not fighting a Bradley with a knife. Train all you want this was not a fight he was going to win 8 times out of 10. He was just waiting for a body bag if he pulled that trigger, along with a few of his customers probably. I blame him in no way, the safety of those who are inside belongs to the shooter first and themselves. They chose not to carry a firearm for self defense, why would he change that choice for them. If he went down, I'll be the people he saved wouldn't have stepped up to feed his wife and kids, that's on him.


I don't mean to be a jerk, but judging this guy isn't fair. And if I saw this shooting in his situation, I would de-ass the area, pronto.


Can I ring steel at 100yrds with my carry piece? I don't know, never tried- have been taught self-defense distance is much closer- but this would not have been self-defense, would have been defense of others.
may require a change of CCW to be able to- I've been looking at .357sig lately (not required for that distance, but it wouldn't hurt if I'm changing CCW gun anyway)
Don't just stand while ringing steel. Move around, sprint to cover, close distance while shooting.
If you want to file it under self defense... a shooter indiscriminately targeting people may indiscriminately target you.

[Atrain1]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO. I agree with you on this one, if you dont know how to use your gun you could be better off not to carry it, like you said 65 yards is not that difficult of a shot but to some one who has not trained with there gun it could be. I can kind of see it from both sides of the fence the guy was probably very scared seeing the AK that can be a very scary gun, I sure would not want to be on the receiving end of one, also does anyone know what the BBQ owner was carrying, a 65 yard shot with my P3AT would be a hard shot, On the same note I would not want to have 4 murdered people that I could have stopped, I know the feeling I could have stopped my sister from taking her own life if I was not tired from working and went over to her house when she called me, I told her I would be there after I had got some rest, that night she overdosed on pills, she had tried it numerous times in the past so I would have seen the signs.

[Great-Kazoo]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

I agree with training, in my CCW class i cannot stress training enough, 1 or 2 classes do not a proficient gun owner.
Since i already posted i will add this. Targets DO NOT SHOOT BACK
Unless you are training under fire (Simunitions) all the time, or have been involved in a shoot out, you will never know what it is like to have some one return fire.
Arm chair quarterbacking doesn't play in the real world.
Example: Columbine, had numerous LE depts on site, unfortunately the Com between depts was fuked. However with unknown assailants NOT ONE LE entered the building to stop the threat.
I am at the dry cleaners 2 doors down from the IHOP and i hear gunfire. I see #1 assailant with a rifle. All of a sudden Shooter #2 makes an appearance from a building same side of the street as me.
Do I engage Shooter 1 or 2, Is shooter 1, even with rifle going after shooter #2's accomplice or shooter 2 accomplice of 1??? Is shooter 2 an LE without ID as happened in NY recently and was shot by another LE?? Do i draw and engage, what happens if an off duty LE was on site and see's me running towards IHOP? More than likely he would order me to halt or shoot since he also does not want to draw fire.
I am also one who runs towards the train wreck as i have to live with myself and sleep at night. UNLESS i have a clear picture of what is going on engaging would be a call only made at that time. YMMV.

[68Charger]

Don't just stand while ringing steel. Move around, sprint to cover, close distance while shooting.
If you want to file it under self defense... a shooter indiscriminately targeting people may indiscriminately target you.

I didn't intend to put defense of others as less important- I may have come across that way, but if I had a chance & means to defend other's lives (not just my family, but strangers), and did nothing, I'd feel like their lives were on my conscience.

good discussion, I've got to go now, tho...

[mcantar18c]

This thinking gets you shot.

MOH is enough to put one his gut/leg/chest? I have seen all of the locations take a pistol round (once 3 in the chest/gut), and the guy walk away, sometimes run. (Hell, just the other day worked with a person who got shot in the FACE and walked home!) NOT once have I seen a pistol round put a dude down from a single round in ANY of these spots except the ankle, he was crying, alot, and his ankle was a mess. The bullet or bone game was fun with that guy. If you plan to take a shot from that far against a well armed opponent, you need to get your groups smaller than than a pistol (6-8 MOA typically) can go.

You would need a clean DRT shot. The dude has an AK and you just made yourself target #1 = GAME OVER. This wasn't IDPA, hits barely count, you need to put the dude down right now, no easy feat with any firearm, much less a pistol. Worth note- I have seen no reason to trust pistols to get the job done, they are mean in the movies, a 12 gauge however, that's another story.

ALL handguns suck. Period. This is why you SHOOT THEM TO THE GROUND.
I've never competed in any kind of gun game. My guns are for killing things, and that is what I train for... whether its hunting 4 legged creatures or defending myself, and others in certain situations, from 2 legged ones.


Exactly! I'm trackin battle. A guy entering any business with an AK or anygun for that matter in his hand, dropping people in the parking lot needs stopped! Where as a guy robbing the circle K your in gettin your big gulp on who hasnt even loaded a round in the chamber doesnt really deserve getting worked up over, until he raises the bar.
[Beer]


Agreed- at least shot AT, but:


This guy turned the gun on himself- if you wounded him, there's a chance he'd just off himself, when you're dealing with those kind of mentally unstable types.

Is there a good chance he'd shoot me, even kill me? Sure, the odds are not in the pistol's favor... but again, I'm sure living with myself after doing nothing would be very difficult.

the other side is that I wasn't there, I didn't see cover (or lack of), and where innocent bystanders were- I haven't even looked at the layout of the area. If I worked there every day, I'd sure know it.
Its entirely possible that when faced with opposition this particular individual would have just given up, let it happen, or turned his gun on himself. However that's no something you can count on.

You bring up an excellent point though... BBQ guy was there many days a week for a significant length of time. I've been working at my job for only a few weeks, but I've already got the building and surrounding area scouted out... lines of approach from various places, cover, etc... and ran through countless situations in my mind. The BBQ guy should have done the same, if he was serious about carrying that weapon, and that would most certainly have increased his chances for success.

[Zundfolge]

hindsight is 20/20 ... I'm sure the BBQ shop owner is going to relive that day every day for the rest of his life and second guess his actions that day.

Maybe he wouldn't have been able to pull a kill shot from that distance, but maybe a little suppressive fire would have made the shooter drop his AK and flee ... I don't envy that man and I believe I would have opened fire myself (and everything I learn after the fact about the shooter reinforces that decision ... but again, read the first 3 words of this post), but I'm not going to judge him for his actions (or inactions).

In retrospect BBQ guy's BIGGEST mistake was admitting his inaction to the media (on several news sites libtard schmucks in the comments sections used his inaction to paint all of us CCWers as Walter Mitty wannabes with 3" penises who carry because we live in a fantasy world where if the lighting and camera angles are just right we can be Bruce Willis too).

[BigMat]

...

I disagree with most of what you said, so I saved some space instead of going line by line.

No training ever, fully prepares a person for the big show, I don't care how good it is.

You can run and jump and shoot under stress all you want, NO ONE has ever become a combat veteran by volume of training alone. And I have seen people train their asses off, and then fall flat the first time its time to go. Mind set is serious, but from my experience its something you have, not something you can get, and the only way to know, is to find out by being there. For example, I worked with a guy once, trained for nearly a year in medicine, took a combat medic class. We drive up to our first MVA together, he sees a fair bit of blood, bam, I've got two patients because cap't training just took a nose dive/ out cold. It was awesome! He quit the next day.


The reason I said one shot, is after the first report reaches his ears, unless the bullet passes between them first, he's shooting back, and all advantage you had is gone.

As to hip shots due to armor, I've seen one before, it caused neither tremendous blood loss or immobilization, it could, but not always. Again, pistols can't make promises.

Why didn't he move, no idea, I wasn't there. There could have been one harley between him and the IHOP. and concealment doesn't stop bullets, by definition, especially 30/60/90/120 of them. Sure trucks are big, but they are mostly volume that bullets can pass cleanly through.

As to taking him down to defend your customers, I think he was in a good postion to defend them as well, that's why he was best to keep his butt alive, hidden and parked.


I know I would sleep well every night of my life, (and I have vested my life's work to saving other people, and I have hung by butt out there a time or two to prove it) because what happened in that shooting was the shooters doing, and the defense of me and mine falls to me and mine, not to some guy in a BBQ joint across the lot. The people in IHOP didn't carry where legal to do so, why aren't we talking about them?

[mcantar18c]

I agree with training, in my CCW class i cannot stress training enough, 1 or 2 classes do not a proficient gun owner.
Since i already posted i will add this. Targets DO NOT SHOOT BACK
Unless you are training under fire (Simunitions) all the time, or have been involved in a shoot out, you will never know what it is like to have some one return fire.
FOF training is something that anybody that carries a weapon should do, IMO.


I didn't intend to put defense of others as less important- I may have come across that way, but if I had a chance & means to defend other's lives (not just my family, but strangers), and did nothing, I'd feel like their lives were on my conscience.

good discussion, I've got to go now, tho...
It IS less important. You and yours are the #1 priority. But, if you're in a position to help someone, possibly save them from being killed by some random crazy person while enjoying breakfast at IHOP, I see no reason not to do so. I certainly would have trouble sleeping at night knowing I did nothing, and knowing the results of my inaction.

[Irving]

I didn't have time to read the rest of the posts yet, but this thread did at least give me a fun idea for a training exercise. 5 targets, 20 yards apart, then you jog, sprint, etc the 100 yards and engage each target as you pass. You can do it on your strong side, weak side, or even stagger the targets so you have targets on each side; then you'd have to shoot across your body while moving. I like the stagger setup idea, because if you move to the left or right of the row, then you'd be shooting on your strong hand only side, but every other target would be twice the distance away. That sounds fun. I think I'm going to set that up some time.

Also, I've never tried to hit anything with a pistol past like 35 yards. I guess I should set that up as well, but I don't know what I have to shoot at that would be large enough. Maybe I should have gotten that keg out of the dumpster a while back. heh.

[Fentonite]

Jeez. I just read every post, and didn't see a single picture of a locomotive. That title was misleading.
[Tooth]

[mcantar18c]

I disagree with most of what you said, so I saved some space instead of going line by line.

We agree more than you think...

No training ever, fully prepares a person for the big show, I don't care how good it is.

Agreed. But like I said, it will definitely stack the odds in one's favor... or more to their side than otherwise, anyway.

You can run and jump and shoot under stress all you want, NO ONE has ever become a combat veteran by volume of training alone. And I have seen people train their asses off, and then fall flat the first time its time to go. Mind set is serious, but from my experience its something you have, not something you can get, and the only way to know, is to find out by being there.

Mindset is definitely more nature than nurture. But I've seen plenty of converts... having your eyes opened to the evils in the world is quite the experience, and I've seen many cases where people did a complete 180 after an experience.

The reason I said one shot, is after the first report reaches his ears, unless the bullet passes between them first, he's shooting back, and all advantage you had is gone.

Once the first report reaches his ears, he's aware that he's got some opposition. It still takes time to figure out where the shots are coming from and where to shoot back.... and in that time you can have plenty more rounds headed his way.

As to hip shots due to armor, I've seen one before, it caused neither tremendous blood loss or immobilization, it could, but not always. Again, pistols can't make promises.

Which, again, is why you shoot them to the ground. Until they're lying on the ground and not moving, there's no need to stop pulling that trigger.

Why didn't he move, no idea, I wasn't there. There could have been one harley between him and the IHOP. and concealment doesn't stop bullets, by definition, especially 30/60/90/120 of them. Sure trucks are big, but they are mostly volume that bullets can pass cleanly through.

Concealment doesn't stop bullets, but it prevents the shooter from knowing where to put those bullets. If you shoot while moving behind a solid line of cars, by the time he figures out where that shot comes from you can be dozens of yards away from where you shot from. My comment about trucks was about engine blocks. Put the front clip of a vehicle between you and the shooter, and you'll have some decent cover. Not great, but unless he shoots underneath the vehicle or gets lucky and the bullet dodges all of the large, thick pieces of steel in the engine bay, it's better than nothing.

As to taking him down to defend your customers, I think he was in a good postion to defend them as well, that's why he was best to keep his butt alive, hidden and parked.


I know I would sleep well every night of my life, (and I have vested my life's work to saving other people, and I have hung by butt out there a time or two to prove it) because what happened in that shooting was the shooters doing, and the defense of me and mine falls to me and mine, not to some guy in a BBQ joint across the lot. The people in IHOP didn't carry where legal to do so, why aren't we talking about them?


I didn't have time to read the rest of the posts yet, but this thread did at least give me a fun idea for a training exercise. 5 targets, 20 yards apart, then you jog, sprint, etc the 100 yards and engage each target as you pass. You can do it on your strong side, weak side, or even stagger the targets so you have targets on each side; then you'd have to shoot across your body while moving. I like the stagger setup idea, because if you move to the left or right of the row, then you'd be shooting on your strong hand only side, but every other target would be twice the distance away. That sounds fun. I think I'm going to set that up some time.

Also, I've never tried to hit anything with a pistol past like 35 yards. I guess I should set that up as well, but I don't know what I have to shoot at that would be large enough. Maybe I should have gotten that keg out of the dumpster a while back. heh.

Shoot while sprinting at multiple targets, shoot with one hand, shoot with your weak hand, shoot to the sides, shoot while searching for cover, etc.
Sounds like a good idea you've got there.

[Zundfolge]

Every time one of these "Tactics agianst a spree shooter" threads comes up I'm mildly annoyed about them.

All these discussions about cover, concealment, tactics, shooting and moving etc. Y'all act like spree shooters are most often pissed off Ex Navy Seals or something.

99 times out of 100 spree shooters are some dumb-ass misanthrope who's "training" consists of a few hours of "Call of Duty" on the X Box.

You don't have to make every shot a 100 yard head shot. You just have to get lead moving in the shooter's direction ASAP.

Just look at the New Life shooting here in The Springs. Jeanne Assam didn't "take the shooter out", she simply winged him and the instant he realized this wasn't going to be shooting fish in a barrel any more, he got down on one knee and ate his pistol. Shooting over. Good guys safe.

I think we tend to over think these things. Sure, there's much value in training ... anything that makes your shots more effective is good. But the biggest "mindset" issue you need to work on is clearing leather and getting lead downrange ... don't worry about bystanders (what good is it to wait for that perfect shot while the shooter puts bullets in the heads of innocent folk ... if you happen to put a bullet into the leg or torso of a bystander it'll suck, but its just a risk you have to put out of your mind).

The way to stop spree shooters is to engage them as quickly as possible ... doesn't have to be pretty, just has to be fast.

To paraphrase Mark Twain (or maybe it was Heinlein):
When engaged in a gun fight, Get your first shot off fast. This upsets your opponent long enough to let you make your second shot perfect.

[Byte Stryke]

Every time one of these "Tactics agianst a spree shooter" threads comes up I'm mildly annoyed about them.

All these discussions about cover, concealment, tactics, shooting and moving etc. Y'all act like spree shooters are most often pissed off Ex Navy Seals or something.

99 times out of 100 spree shooters are some dumb-ass misanthrope who's "training" consists of a few hours of "Call of Duty" on the X Box.

You don't have to make every shot a 100 yard head shot. You just have to get lead moving in the shooter's direction ASAP.

Just look at the New Life shooting here in The Springs. Jeanne Assam didn't "take the shooter out", she simply winged him and the instant he realized this wasn't going to be shooting fish in a barrel any more, he got down on one knee and ate his pistol. Shooting over. Good guys safe.

I think we tend to over think these things. Sure, there's much value in training ... anything that makes your shots more effective is good. But the biggest "mindset" issue you need to work on is clearing leather and getting lead downrange ... don't worry about bystanders (what good is it to wait for that perfect shot while the shooter puts bullets in the heads of innocent folk ... if you happen to put a bullet into the leg or torso of a bystander it'll suck, but its just a risk you have to put out of your mind).

The way to stop spree shooters is to engage them as quickly as possible ... doesn't have to be pretty, just has to be fast.

To paraphrase Mark Twain (or maybe it was Heinlein):
When engaged in a gun fight, Get your first shot off fast. This upsets your opponent long enough to let you make your second shot perfect.



I Love you...


[ROFL1]

[Bailey Guns]

There are good arguments on both sides of this issue. There is plenty of precedent to support both sides as well.

There was a mass shooting a few years ago, don't recall where, that involved a guy who tried to stop the shooting and was killed. If I recall correctly he had some equipment issues or something. Anyway, he's dead.

Personal experience: When my supervisor, Sgt Tim Mossbrucker was killed at the Albertson's store on Bowles/Kipling by a scumbag named Albert Petroski, the shooter (Petroski) was stopped by an off duty IRS(?) agent that took a shot from a little over 100 yds with a S&W 9MM auto (if I recall correctly). Damn near hit Petroski in the head, too. But once Petroski started taking fire he surrendered.

I'll never forget the words over the radio..."Get medical in here. Victor 4's been shot."

Anyway, I, for one, will never second guess the guy for not taking a shot at the shooter 65 yds or so away. He did what he thought was right and I respect that. At least he knows enough to not attempt to perform beyond his capabilities. People who aren't that smart get others killed every day in one fashion or another.

Yes, I'm a big advocate of training. Been teaching a CCW class all day as a matter of fact. But in reality, we tell people it's their decision to make, but advise against intervening in a deadly force scenario unless the student or someone they really care for is in danger.

The reality is you open yourself up to all sorts of things that can go wrong when you intervene.

I'm really comfortable with my level of experience and training. I've made the personal decision that there are going to have to be some serious extenuating circumstances before I'm going to employ deadly force for Joe Public.

[BigMat]

I've made the personal decision that there are going to have to be some serious extenuating circumstances before I'm going to employ deadly force for Joe Public.

+1 to all you said, and I stand by this as well. If Joe Public decided not to carry, who am I to say he's wrong!? (I think this concept was penned by Clint Smith First)

[Bailey Guns]

Clint Smith is one of my heroes. "LOGIC"

[sneakerd]

Well. I guess I'll throw in my 2cents. I wanted to post this earlier, as I saw the 1st post pretty quickly. For what it is worth. I have had lots of training- not a professional. I think I'm pretty good with a pistol (certainly not as good as Atrain!). I'm not sure it would have happened any differently if it had been me. It was most likely a matter of seconds, and no matter what anyone says, 65 yards is a long way shooting with a concealable pistol in that situation. I'd love to be the hero- but the reality would likely be very different.

[mcantar18c]

I think we tend to over think these things. Sure, there's much value in training ... anything that makes your shots more effective is good. But the biggest "mindset" issue you need to work on is clearing leather and getting lead downrange ... don't worry about bystanders (what good is it to wait for that perfect shot while the shooter puts bullets in the heads of innocent folk ... if you happen to put a bullet into the leg or torso of a bystander it'll suck, but its just a risk you have to put out of your mind).
Zund, how do you always find a way to say things so damn well?
+1 on this.


Guys, while this is an interesting discussion, this is not where I was hoping this thread would go. The IHOP incident was only an example.
My point is that this:

At least he knows enough to not attempt to perform beyond his capabilities.
... should not be the comments we see in a discussion about an "active shooter" incident where there was an armed citizen in the area.
Choosing not to intervene for your own well being is one thing, but choosing not to intervene because you don't think you have the skills to do so is another entirely.
I'm not saying that people should go around trying to be James Bond with little to know training behind them, I'm saying that someone who takes responsibility for their well being by carrying a weapon has absolutely no excuse for not getting the proper training to handle that weapon... something that's far too common of an occurrence.

[Bailey Guns]

Being able to "handle that weapon" and being able to proactively and effectively engage an active shooter 65 yards away while offering minimum danger to innocents are two different things.

I think the comment you have an issue with is entirely appropriate to the discussion.

Furthermore, how do you know there was only the one armed citizen in the area. There could've been 10...or 100...armed people in the area who chose not to intervene and who've chosen to remain silent for various reasons.

Arming yourself to protect self and loved ones only is just as valid a reason to carry as any other. I have no legal obligation to protect anyone. The moral obligation I feel to protect (or not to protect) society in general is my business alone.

[BigMat]

I'm not saying that people should go around trying to be James Bond with little to know training behind them, I'm saying that someone who takes responsibility for their well being by carrying a weapon has absolutely no excuse for not getting the proper training to handle that weapon... something that's far too common of an occurrence.


Agreed, I think the other side of the coin that we are talking about is that there are too many people with guns and training who think they can take on the world, only to quickly find their way to bad results (often with a lot of training see: Pima county SWAT team kills Marine, NYPD accidentally shoots O/O uniform officer, Texas CCW shoots gunman in chest - Dies, etc.).

- A little thinking goes a LONG way, finger on the trigger or not.

Finally I think he handled that weapon exactly right- honestly. He took no oath to protect anyone, their protection was on them. He was responsible for #1, and pulling that trigger gets him shot 8 times out of 10 and the gunman one more hash mark on his rifle. I do not believe there is enough combat training and mindset education on earth to swing the odds in CCW guys favor. Whoever trained him to think trained him right.

-Hypothetical, I see an Apache attacking a school. Do I A.) shoot it down with my CCW gun. B.) quickly leave the situation, call for adequate levels of help, observe as able. The answer is B. While this is more extreme, AK vs. CCW pistol, AK wins unless a dog is on the AK and you have tons of trigger time on that kel-tec.

[Bailey Guns]

Zund, how do you always find a way to say things so damn well?
+1 on this.


Guys, while this is an interesting discussion, this is not where I was hoping this thread would go. The IHOP incident was only an example.
My point is that this:

... should not be the comments we see in a discussion about an "active shooter" incident where there was an armed citizen in the area.
Choosing not to intervene for your own well being is one thing, but choosing not to intervene because you don't think you have the skills to do so is another entirely.
I'm not saying that people should go around trying to be James Bond with little to know training behind them, I'm saying that someone who takes responsibility for their well being by carrying a weapon has absolutely no excuse for not getting the proper training to handle that weapon... something that's far too common of an occurrence.

The more I think about this post, the more it seems it's completely illogical to me.

Someone chooses not to intervene in an active shooter situation for personal safety reasons is perfectly valid. Not doing so because you don't think you have the skill set to do so effectively or safely is also perfectly valid.

How is that any different from a police officer encountering a situation that's beyond his/her ability to control so he/she decides to back off until:
Help arrives
It's bumped up to SWAT or other specialized teamsWorking within your limits applies to lots of things in life. Why shouldn't it apply to intervening in deadly force encounters?

[Atrain1]

There are good arguments on both sides of this issue. There is plenty of precedent to support both sides as well.

There was a mass shooting a few years ago, don't recall where, that involved a guy who tried to stop the shooting and was killed. If I recall correctly he had some equipment issues or something. Anyway, he's dead.

Personal experience: When my supervisor, Sgt Tim Mossbrucker was killed at the Albertson's store on Bowles/Kipling by a scumbag named Albert Petroski, the shooter (Petroski) was stopped by an off duty IRS(?) agent that took a shot from a little over 100 yds with a S&W 9MM auto (if I recall correctly). Damn near hit Petroski in the head, too. But once Petroski started taking fire he surrendered.

I'll never forget the words over the radio..."Get medical in here. Victor 4's been shot."

Anyway, I, for one, will never second guess the guy for not taking a shot at the shooter 65 yds or so away. He did what he thought was right and I respect that. At least he knows enough to not attempt to perform beyond his capabilities. People who aren't that smart get others killed every day in one fashion or another.

Yes, I'm a big advocate of training. Been teaching a CCW class all day as a matter of fact. But in reality, we tell people it's their decision to make, but advise against intervening in a deadly force scenario unless the student or someone they really care for is in danger.

The reality is you open yourself up to all sorts of things that can go wrong when you intervene.

I'm really comfortable with my level of experience and training. I've made the personal decision that there are going to have to be some serious extenuating circumstances before I'm going to employ deadly force for Joe Public. I have been talking with my brother about this and no one knows what was going through that guys head, like I said earlier an AK47 is kind of a scary gun when you are on the other end of it and the guy probably had a small carry gun which would make for a hard shot a 65 yards, so that guy should be able to sleep knowing he did the right thing. I also agree that you should train with your gun and know it well, I would not let me wife carry until I felt she had the proper training, without it the gun can do more harm then good.

[trout_champ]

So where can Joe Public like me go to train to get better with my CCW?

Randy

[sniper7]

If its a mugging, bank robbery etc where their are no gun shots fired its better to be a good witness but once shots are fired I believe its time to get involved if you can do so without injurying the wrong people. I agree with not takeing the 65yd shot, but if he had ran over their he "may" have saved at least one life?

Although I dont believe 65yds is to far for a handgun. Some believe handguns are for 10yds only just like they believe archery hunting is 20yds maximum.


yeah or lost his own or caused more damage or killed an another...you just never know.

I am with Irving. no way would I be out shooting a 65 yard shot with my pistol....especially since I have soo many carry weapons...one of my own personal problems that I need to figure out.

not if I had my bow...no problem. would look like rambo 5 dropping that sum-bitch in his tracks.

[mcantar18c]

Being able to "handle that weapon" and being able to proactively and effectively engage an active shooter 65 yards away while offering minimum danger to innocents are two different things.

I think the comment you have an issue with is entirely appropriate to the discussion.

Furthermore, how do you know there was only the one armed citizen in the area. There could've been 10...or 100...armed people in the area who chose not to intervene and who've chosen to remain silent for various reasons.

Arming yourself to protect self and loved ones only is just as valid a reason to carry as any other. I have no legal obligation to protect anyone. The moral obligation I feel to protect (or not to protect) society in general is my business alone.
I wasn't attacking your post personally. What I was getting at is that we should be praising him for his action, not for his inaction.

Everybody has a different opinion on these things, but I see no reason that a 65 yard shot should be out of the question as far as one's abilities with their carry weapon.

You by no means have any obligation to protect the sheep... they have the option to carry, and have chosen to not take it. But I think I'd have trouble sleeping at night knowing that I could have done something and didn't, and lives were lost because of it.


The more I think about this post, the more it seems it's completely illogical to me.

Someone chooses not to intervene in an active shooter situation for personal safety reasons is perfectly valid. Not doing so because you don't think you have the skill set to do so effectively or safely is also perfectly valid.
I disagree. Not having the skillset to effectively engage and stop a threat completely negates the idea of carrying a weapon. Ability without skill is pointless, skill without ability is useless.


So where can Joe Public like me go to train to get better with my CCW?

Randy
I have my opinions on which school is best, but any number of places can teach you skills that can help you.

[mcantar18c]

Here's another example.
A guy I know who has proven more than once that he has what it takes to get the job done, just proved it once more. This is a man who has had extensive training from a certain private sector school (the one I referenced above) and it certainly helped him out.
He was on a bus yesterday, Sept. 10, heading back home, when armed thugs boarded the bus demanding the passengers hand over their cash, threatened to kill people, the usual (usual for his AO anyway).
He was close to the door, and when he saw an opening he took it and bolted out. Went around the front of the bus and peered through the windshield to see what he could do, then realizing he was an easy target where he was standing he ducked below the windows and moved along the side of the bus. He rounded the corner at the back of the bus and found himself between two of the thugs... one of which sped off on his motorcycle. The other raised his gun and wound up with 7 new holes in him.
A few hours later (took so long cause he had to explain to the authorities why two of those rounds hit the thug in the back), he was escorted back to his home and his weapon was returned to him.
I don't know what happened to the thugs on the bus... don't have those details.

While this may be an unlikely scenario here in the US for most of us, so is a guy shooting up an IHOP with an AK or some asshats going and shooting up a high school. Not only is C is alive and well and returning to his family, but so are the folks on the bus because of his actions. He could have just as easily kept running when he got out the door but chose not to, and now he and others are alive because of his training.

[Irving]

Everybody has a different opinion on these things, but I see no reason that a 65 yard shot should be out of the question as far as one's abilities with their carry weapon.



That is because you've made it your life mission to become a professional warrior. That's no problem of course, because the world needs those guys, but not everyone will be, nor should be, the same. Your statement that anyone who carries should be able to shoot Minute of Person at 100 yards with a handgun is ridiculous. That would be the same as saying that everyone with a savings account should have their Series 7 certification, and everyone with a driver's license should have at least a year of rally racing under their belt.

100 yard shots with a pistol is professional warrior training, and I doubt even those guys spend a lot of time training for that because if you are armed with a pistol only, and are 100 yards away from something, it is entirely irresponsible to engage until you are about 70 yards closer.

I laugh every time you mention shooting at a full sprint too. I used to be able to cover 100 yards in about 13 seconds at a full sprint. I know that I can hardly even see anything while running that hard, let alone shoot anything. I'd like to see you hit a man sized piece of steel at 100 yards with a pistol while moving at all, let alone sprinting.

So, training is good, but not everyone is, or needs to be, or even should be, a full on professional soldier, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[BigMat]

Everybody has a different opinion on these things, but I see no reason that a 65 yard shot should be out of the question as far as one's abilities with their carry weapon.


I disagree. Not having the skillset to effectively engage and stop a threat completely negates the idea of carrying a weapon. Ability without skill is pointless, skill without ability is useless.




Again, even IF you could get a hit, you have a pistol- that means nothing, I don't know how many people you have seen shot, a hit at 65 yards with a handgun could mean very little, as in he may not even know he's been shot. As for the "shoot to the ground." Much easier said than done, as you now have a shrinking, and moving, all be it down, target at long range. Multiple center mass hits, with a CCW pistol, rapidly, on a two way range, while moving, against a moving target, at this distance, I don't buy it. Not for a second. I've taken 100 yard shots with a Glock 19 and pushed it farther with a 1911, I have put thousands of rounds through these handguns, both are large for carry guns and in neither would I be wild about taking the shot unless forced. I cannot expect a guy who may have a Ruger LCR to try the same, and need to get it right the first time.

You forget every time that you are facing a very well armed, presumably trained adversary with a ton of ammo and nothing to lose.

as to the guy on the bus, his max range was maybe 6 yards based on your story, that's a far cry from 67 yards. Second point, his first action was running away in your story, not a bad call. He accidentally wound up in a crappy situation and came out on top, if Carson Shooter walked into the BBQ joint and CCW guy shot him, then these stories are the same, Carson Shooter never got near the CCW guy.


If CCW guy had a Rem 700 and some glass, take the shot, rock on, but with a CCW gun, forget the training, he could be a Ninja, he's done if he tries. 6-8 MOA on a perfect day, maybe 8 try's, 1 maybe 2 before youre getting shot to bits, and even if he hits, no promises it might not even put the shooter down, no way, he did the right thing


Finally, if I was him, I would be sound asleep right now and for the rest of my days, knowing "Mission Accomplished," he went home to his wife and kids safe and he can still put food on the table. This time, he made the right call, you can't save everybody, but you can kill yourself trying.



This may explain it better than I can-

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.



You may need to work on serenity training!



I don't mean to rant, but this dude may be eating himself up, and the last thing we as shooters need to do is pick apart the actions of a man we don't know, in a situation we cant understand, facing a threat we never saw. It gets us nowhere, it gets him nowhere, it gets our rights nowhere. The issue here is more people could have helped if they had guns in the IHOP and that the shooter shouldn't of had a gun! Not that some man lawfully protecting himself didn't go full-ninja enough to please the internet.

[Drilldov2.0]

I propose we settle this nonsense with a 65 yard, Coar15 shoot off.

[trout_champ]

I have my opinions on which school is best, but any number of places can teach you skills that can help you.

Can you throw a name out there? And where would I go to practice these things when done with the class? Like running and shooting from cover and stuff.

I do this at south site or dragon mans and I might have lead clogged arteries.

Randy

[spyder]

I have only read a few of these posts but even with those I have read, I want all of us to get together and see who can do a 100 yard shot with their carry pistol and hit the target, not close, but hit. I know there will be a few that say they can do it over and over, but, I'm a firm believer in "seeing is believing". Hell, if you can't or don't want to, film it, post it on youtube and let us see you do it again and again. Just sayin.

[spyder]

I propose we settle this nonsense with a 65 yard, Coar15 shoot off.
^^^This

Should have read a little more...

[BigMat]

I have only read a few of these posts but even with those I have read, I want all of us to get together and see who can do a 100 yard shot with their carry pistol and hit the target, not close, but hit. I know there will be a few that say they can do it over and over, but, I'm a firm believer in "seeing is believing". Hell, if you can't or don't want to, film it, post it on youtube and let us see you do it again and again. Just sayin.


I'm game, I'll see if I can figure out filming next time I'm shooting and remember to pace out 100 yards (I've been spending a lot of time up close, I got a new shotgun recently, I HATE BEARS).

I make no promises by the way. volume /= skill

How about rules? Size of Target? Time? Do we have to be moving?

[spyder]

I'm game, I'll see if I can figure out filming next time I'm shooting and remember to pace out 100 yards (I've been spending a lot of time up close, I got a new shotgun recently, I HATE BEARS).

I make no promises by the way. volume /= skill

How about rules? Size of Target? Time? Do we have to be moving?
I would say the size of a man, no bigger since the arguement of the original post was to be able to hit a man at 100 yards without killing the people around him.

[Drilldov2.0]

I say we recreate the situation, once we get an actual view of what happened.

That will be stage one.

[spyder]

I already know how most of these are going to turn out... You guys should do what my friend and I have done in the past. Get two cardboard cut outs and place them down range from yourself and your friend, have one with your carry weapon and one with the rifle. The guy with the rifle turn your back to your target. The one with the carry takes the first shot at his cut out (supposed to represent the guy with the rifle). At the sound of the shot, the guy with the rifle gets to turn and take shots at his target (supposed to represent the guy with the carry gun). See who shoots who first.

We did this with pistols at first acting like an old west dual at 40 yards, it was fun, but with the pistols, we both had our backs to our targets. Anyway, you get the idea.

[trout_champ]

I’ve never tried to push my M&P40c that far, but I am game. I just want to see if I can.

Randy

[BigMat]

I am in, may be a week or so as I am leaving town for Oregon, buy maybe I'll try it up there.

Gun to try- New RIA 1911 officer frame, about 300 rounds down the pipe so far, max range to date 20 yards-ish. That's right, small frame 45 acp. Wish me luck

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/mschlievert/IMAG0134-1.jpg



I also really like the rifle/pistol showdown idea.

[Irving]

I’ve never tried to push my M&P40c that far, but I am game. I just want to see if I can.

Randy

Let's try it together!

Hell, let's all go up to Pawnee and practice shooting handguns at one mile.

[BigMat]

Hell, let's all go up to Pawnee and practice shooting handguns at one mile.


Ballistics confirms it, I'm in!

45 ACP (230 gr RN)
Muzzle Velocity 850 ft/s
Maximum Range 1800 yard, 1.02 miles
Maximum Range, Impact Velocity 330 ft/s

[mcantar18c]

That is because you've made it your life mission to become a professional warrior. That's no problem of course, because the world needs those guys, but not everyone will be, nor should be, the same. Your statement that anyone who carries should be able to shoot Minute of Person at 100 yards with a handgun is ridiculous. That would be the same as saying that everyone with a savings account should have their Series 7 certification, and everyone with a driver's license should have at least a year of rally racing under their belt.

100 yard shots with a pistol is professional warrior training, and I doubt even those guys spend a lot of time training for that because if you are armed with a pistol only, and are 100 yards away from something, it is entirely irresponsible to engage until you are about 70 yards closer.

I laugh every time you mention shooting at a full sprint too. I used to be able to cover 100 yards in about 13 seconds at a full sprint. I know that I can hardly even see anything while running that hard, let alone shoot anything. I'd like to see you hit a man sized piece of steel at 100 yards with a pistol while moving at all, let alone sprinting.

So, training is good, but not everyone is, or needs to be, or even should be, a full on professional soldier, and there is nothing wrong with that.
This has nothing to do with what one chooses to do for a living. A man that carries a weapon for the sake of defending against a two-legged threat should be able to push their weapon to its full potential. Period.
It really isn't as difficult as people make it out to be.


Again, even IF you could get a hit, you have a pistol- that means nothing, I don't know how many people you have seen shot, a hit at 65 yards with a handgun could mean very little, as in he may not even know he's been shot.
[COLOR="red"]Shooting at him, whether he feels the shot or not, will reset his OODA loop, affording you time to ____ (make a more well placed shot, close distance while shooting, etc.)
As for the "shoot to the ground." Much easier said than done, as you now have a shrinking, and moving, all be it down, target at long range. Multiple center mass hits, with a CCW pistol, rapidly, on a two way range, while moving, against a moving target, at this distance, I don't buy it. Not for a second.
Shoot them to the ground doesn't mean pull the trigger so fast people think you're on full auto. Do what you need to do to place shots on target, just keep putting them on that target
I've taken 100 yard shots with a Glock 19 and pushed it farther with a 1911, I have put thousands of rounds through these handguns, both are large for carry guns and in neither would I be wild about taking the shot unless forced.
I certainly wouldn't be wild about taking a 65 yard shot with a handgun either. But because I've done so so well in training, I'm confident that if that were the only option I had, I could do it. As we've discussed though, that wasn't the only option.
I cannot expect a guy who may have a Ruger LCR to try the same, and need to get it right the first time.
I cannot expect a man who's serious about carrying for defensive purposes to carry a Ruger LCP[Coffee]

You forget every time that you are facing a very well armed, presumably trained adversary with a ton of ammo and nothing to lose.

as to the guy on the bus, his max range was maybe 6 yards based on your story, that's a far cry from 67 yards. Second point, his first action was running away in your story, not a bad call. He accidentally wound up in a crappy situation and came out on top, if Carson Shooter walked into the BBQ joint and CCW guy shot him, then these stories are the same, Carson Shooter never got near the CCW guy.
I didn't share that story to compare the ranges. I shared it to compare the actions of the good guys. His first action was getting to a place where he could do some good while reducing the chances of harming innocents... in his words, "I had my pistol in hand but decided a bus packed to the gills was not the best venue for a gunfight. When I noticed an opportunity I bolted out the the door. I ran to the front of the bus...." His intent, from the time he left his seat to the time he pulled the trigger, was to do something about the situation... not to run from it.
If the BBQ guy got low, moved through the parking lot through the cars to a point where he felt he could safely engage the shooter, and then did.... THEN the stories would be the same.

If CCW guy had a Rem 700 and some glass, take the shot, rock on, but with a CCW gun, forget the training, he could be a Ninja, he's done if he tries. 6-8 MOA on a perfect day, maybe 8 try's, 1 maybe 2 before youre getting shot to bits, and even if he hits, no promises it might not even put the shooter down, no way, he did the right thing


Finally, if I was him, I would be sound asleep right now and for the rest of my days, knowing "Mission Accomplished," he went home to his wife and kids safe and he can still put food on the table. This time, he made the right call, you can't save everybody, but you can kill yourself trying.



This may explain it better than I can-

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.



You may need to work on serenity training!



I don't mean to rant, but this dude may be eating himself up, and the last thing we as shooters need to do is pick apart the actions of a man we don't know, in a situation we cant understand, facing a threat we never saw. It gets us nowhere, it gets him nowhere, it gets our rights nowhere. The issue here is more people could have helped if they had guns in the IHOP and that the shooter shouldn't of had a gun! Not that some man lawfully protecting himself didn't go full-ninja enough to please the internet.


Can you throw a name out there? And where would I go to practice these things when done with the class? Like running and shooting from cover and stuff.

I do this at south site or dragon mans and I might have lead clogged arteries.

Randy
PM'd [Beer]
As for places to practice... I have a few spots.


I have only read a few of these posts but even with those I have read, I want all of us to get together and see who can do a 100 yard shot with their carry pistol and hit the target, not close, but hit. I know there will be a few that say they can do it over and over, but, I'm a firm believer in "seeing is believing". Hell, if you can't or don't want to, film it, post it on youtube and let us see you do it again and again. Just sayin.
I'm down. When/where?
If we can't organize something I'll video my next shooting trip.


I already know how most of these are going to turn out... You guys should do what my friend and I have done in the past. Get two cardboard cut outs and place them down range from yourself and your friend, have one with your carry weapon and one with the rifle. The guy with the rifle turn your back to your target. The one with the carry takes the first shot at his cut out (supposed to represent the guy with the rifle). At the sound of the shot, the guy with the rifle gets to turn and take shots at his target (supposed to represent the guy with the carry gun). See who shoots who first.

We did this with pistols at first acting like an old west dual at 40 yards, it was fun, but with the pistols, we both had our backs to our targets. Anyway, you get the idea.
Hmmm... now that sounds like fun.

[Byte Stryke]

well, the wife is pissed.
She couldn't hit a soda can at 250 yards with her Pretty pocket .380 so I told her she was unworthy and had to sell her poop gun.



[ROFL1]




My Opinion, do what you can, when you can, to the best of your abilities.

In the end, all said and done, there are only 2 beings that can judge your actions, you and God.

[Great-Kazoo]

I have taken shots at a 14 x 14 steel plate, 100 yds confirmed distance. Shooting both a 9mm and 45 acp. The only thing different from a standard 100 yd target, the steel plate was approximately 75 feet up an embankment, and there was money on it doing a cold shot.
Both guns were fired 3 x each. shooting the full size 9mm 1st shot missed by [ ] this much way low, 2nd nicked the post 3rd on target
Full size 45 took 2 shots to be in the zone even with the slower heavier round as i knew from the 9 how deceiving 100yds and bullet drop could be.
This shooting was done in the standing position without ANY DISTRACTIONS OR STRESS.

I would welcome the challenge with one caveat, that being we shoot for $10 per round 2 rounds maximum. There are 2 targets say 2 feet apart, shooter has back to targets when buzzer sounds shooter turns and fires at target called out by another shooter. For the dick measuring shooters you have to run back from the target, do 10 push ups then shoot.
I would take my betting money, throw it in to the pot and not waste my time or money, to prove what i can or cannot do under stress, having been there once.

Do we need to set guidelines for the shoot? Not everyone carries a full size gun and some of us due to disabilities are unable to run, kneel or crouch let alone walk more than 50 yards with out assistance. So if that disqualifies me as "Man" enough, or not having enough "training mindset" so be it

[Bailey Guns]

I wasn't attacking your post personally. What I was getting at is that we should be praising him for his action, not for his inaction.

I never felt you were attacking me (or anyone else). I hope I didn't come across that way either.

I'd also argue that his conscious decision not to act, was action. I'm still in the camp that says this guy did the right thing.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

[Tweety Bird]

Some of the posts in this thread scare me.

Not everyone can be a professional warrior, able to make a head shot at 60+ yards without inflicting injury (or worse) to others. Second-guessing a man who likely knew his limitations is stupid. Yes, I said that. He'll have to live with his decision, just as he'd have to live with having shot an innocent if that had happened.

Anyway, the 2A doesn't require training to that level of skill.

In post 17, Jim pointed out the same things for which some of you guys ripped me a new asshole in June. But they are valid concerns, nonetheless.

Tough talk is easy.

[Irving]

A man carrying a pistol for self defense, shouldn't be engaging ANYTHING at 65 yards. Period. Very simple concept.

Engaging someone at 65 yards, who doesn't even know you are there, isn't even defense.

[sneakerd]

I'm up for attending, as long as Atrain is teaching!!!!![Pot]

[theGinsue]

And Irvings last comment

Engaging someone at 65 yards, who doesn't even know you are there, isn't even defense. is the perfect segue (pronouned: segway) for the questions I've had in my head since starting to read this thread.

YOU are the BBQ restaurant owner across the street from a guy you just watched kill a woman. You see this same man walking AWAY from you and towards another restaurant (not yours) with his firearm.

YOU are not in danger and are NOT involved or (probably) won't even be a potential target for this shooter.

What does the LAW say (here in CO) about your right to involve yourself and brandish/use a firearm/lethal force?

Keep in mind ALL of the statements above before you answer. Do you feel your decision would hold up in front of a DA/Judge/Jury?

[Irving]

I think you'd be okay legally, as long as you were able to take the guy out cleanly and he HAD to have been taken out. If he dropped his gun and you still killed him or something, you'd still be tried for murder.

[Great-Kazoo]

With all the tough or as some see it MANdatory actions be taken talk, No One has taken me up on the 2 targets and betting drill, very disappointed. Surely someone would have stepped up instead of sitting on the sidelines without doing anything.:)
$10 per round 2 rounds max. i'll up it to $20 per round 2 rounds max. lets put some money where our bragging rights go.

[mcantar18c]

And Irvings last comment
is the perfect segue (pronouned: segway) for the questions I've had in my head since starting to read this thread.

YOU are the BBQ restaurant owner across the street from a guy you just watched kill a woman. You see this same man walking AWAY from you and towards another restaurant (not yours) with his firearm.

YOU are not in danger and are NOT involved or (probably) won't even be a potential target for this shooter.

What does the LAW say (here in CO) about your right to involve yourself and brandish/use a firearm/lethal force?

Keep in mind ALL of the statements above before you answer. Do you feel your decision would hold up in front of a DA/Judge/Jury?
In this particular situation... as long as the man was posing a threat to others, I'd do everything in my power to stop him.
Is it dangerous? Yes! Would we draw fire? Absolutely! That would be the whole idea. Bring the fight to me so that innocents are not killed.
Not to mention... if I'm in my home/motel room/vehicle/business, I would most definitely have a long gun available. Though that's another conversation altogether.
As for hitting innocent bystanders. They will without a doubt have rounds flying towards them in the next few seconds... whether from the BG's weapon directed at them, or from mine while taking down the BG. I'm sure they'd be happier with him as the target and not them. If I was worried about hitting them, I'd solve that problem by closing distance and/or lowering my position (they're sitting, target is standing... lowering my position puts my shots at an angle that will go over their heads, not to mention gives me a more stable shooting position).
"Fear for my life and the lives of others" should help you in the courtroom, but I'm not worried about that. My #1 concern is making it TO the courtroom... I can worry about "after the fight," after the fight.


With all the tough or as some see it MANdatory actions be taken talk, No One has taken me up on the 2 targets and betting drill, very disappointed. Surely someone would have stepped up instead of sitting on the sidelines without doing anything.:)
$10 per round 2 rounds max. i'll up it to $20 per round 2 rounds max. lets put some money where our bragging rights go.
I agreed to it...
While it would be much easier with the setup I'm getting soon, we don't need to wait till then.

[Inspector Fowler]

I know I'm new here but I've been in law enforcement for almost a decade.

I'm a huge, huge supporter of gun rights and the 2nd amendment. I fully support concealed carry for any citizen willing to train and educate themselves.

But if you really think you can hit a moving target at 65 yards with a handgun with absolute certainty, your confidence exceeds my reasonable limits. I have no doubts people can hit "minute of person" at 65 yards against paper. I can as well. But as soon as that "paper" is walking, running, ducking, shooting, etc, the odds go down terribly.

YOU are responsible for every round you put downrange. If you miss - once - and hit an innocent person, nobody will care in the courtroom. Even if you kill the aggressor, and you saved 20 other people from potentially being killed, you will absolutely be held accountable for the innocent life you ended.

Criminally, the District Attorney may decide not to charge you, or he may. That's going to depend on a lot of factors.

But in civil court, you will be sued into smithereens. Sitting here at our computers, we can bravely say, "I'd rather save some lives and live in a cardboard box than be a coward", but I honestly don't see you winning that suit, and even if you do, I hope you have an extra $50K sitting around for attorneys.

[Bailey Guns]

$50K for legal fees in a wrongful death suit??? Good luck with that.

I got sued once for $16 million for excessive force by a family that made a career out of suing government entities. Took over 2 years to resolve and wound up with a 7 day trial in federal district court in Denver. Of course, I won because everyone knew these scumbags were lying.

Bottom line: My attorney fees over 2.5 years came up to about $480,000. Insurance paid that for me but the court ordered the dumbass that sued me to repay that amount to the insurance company.

Been there, done that with the civil thing. Don't want to do it again unless my life or the life of someone I really care about is jeopardized.

[Great-Kazoo]

$50K for legal fees in a wrongful death suit??? Good luck with that.

I got sued once for $16 million for excessive force by a family that made a career out of suing government entities. Took over 2 years to resolve and wound up with a 7 day trial in federal district court in Denver. Of course, I won because everyone knew these scumbags were lying.

Bottom line: My attorney fees over 2.5 years came up to about $480,000. Insurance paid that for me but the court ordered the dumbass that sued me to repay that amount to the insurance company.

Been there, done that with the civil thing. Don't want to do it again unless my life or the life of someone I really care about is jeopardized.

This and what Insp Fowler posted is what i too inform my students about. No matter what the out come of the DA's investigation IF you were involved in a use of deadly force shooting, the civil suit can and just might break you financially. Each and every round fired must and will be accounted for. The one that missed and hit innocent bystander X is the one that will have you charged with manslaughter or negligent homicide, that you can bank on. No matter how tough the talk i have seen the toughest freeze, or hesitate, just long enough to change the outcome of a confrontation.

One thing that was not mentioned or i missed in the many post is this. While the person with the CCW did not act as some would want, what was he carrying? What are you carrying? I could understand the train of thought "XX should have taken the shot no matter the distance" XX should have engaged etc"
So one of us carries a full size handgun, what was he carrying that day as all seem to assume the ccw had firepower with him.
Was it a Kimber, Colt, Glock or how about a Ruger or kelTec .380 even better one of the NAA mini guardian 22 S/A 1" bbl revolvers.
I would put money had the CCW engaged the perp with his .380 or even 22lr the topic would be how another CCW's bravado got him killed being out gunned and that his training was lacking because everyone knows being out gunned is a sure way to get killed.

[68Charger]

One thing that was not mentioned or i missed in the many post is this. While the person with the CCW did not act as some would want, what was he carrying? What are you carrying? I could understand the train of thought "XX should have taken the shot no matter the distance" XX should have engaged etc"
So one of us carries a full size handgun, what was he carrying that day as all seem to assume the ccw had firepower with him.
Was it a Kimber, Colt, Glock or how about a Ruger or kelTec .380 even better one of the NAA mini guardian 22 S/A 1" bbl revolvers.
I would put money had the CCW engaged the perp with his .380 or even 22lr the topic would be how another CCW's bravado got him killed being out gunned and that his training was lacking because everyone knows being out gunned is a sure way to get killed.

Well said- so the lesson we should all take away is that not being prepared always has consequences...
in real life, you have to weigh being prepared with lugging around an arsenal (and other tools for survival, nutjobs with a gun aren't the only thing that can go wrong, you know)

so reality limits what you prepare for- because trying to take your gun room, medical gear and tool box with you everywhere just isn't practical.

What I found interesting when I mentioned this story to my wife, and her first reaction was that they should pull his CCW permit, because he didn't help... I got her to calm down that he's not required to, he was outgunned, we don't know the whole story, etc... but she apparently puts a very high standard on those of us that carry...

[BigMat]

In this particular situation... as long as the man was posing a threat to others, I'd do everything in my power to stop him.
Is it dangerous? Yes! Would we draw fire? Absolutely! That would be the whole idea. Bring the fight to me so that innocents are not killed.
Not to mention... if I'm in my home/motel room/vehicle/business, I would most definitely have a long gun available. Though that's another conversation altogether.
As for hitting innocent bystanders. They will without a doubt have rounds flying towards them in the next few seconds... whether from the BG's weapon directed at them, or from mine while taking down the BG. I'm sure they'd be happier with him as the target and not them. If I was worried about hitting them, I'd solve that problem by closing distance and/or lowering my position (they're sitting, target is standing... lowering my position puts my shots at an angle that will go over their heads, not to mention gives me a more stable shooting position).
"Fear for my life and the lives of others" should help you in the courtroom, but I'm not worried about that. My #1 concern is making it TO the courtroom... I can worry about "after the fight," after the fight.


I agreed to it...
While it would be much easier with the setup I'm getting soon, we don't need to wait till then.



I am never going to agree with you on this. At least you acknowledge a long gun. Training gets you NOWHERE in this fight, unless you are trained to go to cover when taking fire. There are quite a few people on this thread who are good professional trainers and/or have years of services carrying a side arm professionally who disagree with you. I am not one of these people, just a guy who has seen what a pistol can do in real life and isn't about to try to pick a fight with one against a rifle, ever. I don't know your story or who you are, you could be Todd Jerrett for all I know, but even if you are or shoot as well as he does, you are sounding reckless or ignorant. I know that sounds/is rude, but suggesting we should get into high volume fire fights, from range, against a very capable rifle, in public is reckless or ignorant.

Bellow are a few facts-
100 yard dash /= combat stress
50 pushups /= combat stress
10,000 rounds in training /= 1 round in combat
miss in training /= miss in public
handgun impact on ballistic gel /= handgun round impact on armed man
good hit on IDPA target /= dead/disabled active shooter
Pistol /= rifle
pistol round /= rifle round
-training is great, it helps, but it doesn't give you the ability to smot foes at a thought ever. Second guessing someone who was there is nonsense.

Look at the lot again, the parking situation provides no cover, just long lines of fire. While were are talking about "what if's" and hypotheticals. There were unarmed people in his resturant for sure, did he know who was in the IHOP? What if a FBI HRT was on lunch in there, how about a CCW in a MUCH better position to engage, maybe a NV-AR15.com meet? The CCW shooter would be seen as a IDIOT in retrospect and be facing trial and/or dead. (estates can be sued) He had NO way of knowing the shooter was going to off himself, what if he just planned to barracade/rob the IHOP, he had NO way of knowing he was facing a high volume shooter. In either case, an outside observer providing good intel would be exceptionally valuable, and save many lives, a dead guy with a pistol gets no one anywhere.

His BEST action, call in support, provide observation so that when those with any chance to intervene successfully have good intel and early notice.


Rule I learned early in the firehouse. And I would wager Cops have a similar plan. I know armored cars do (spent a little while on one)

protect yourself first
protect your partner/crew next
protect you patient after you are safe
protect everyone else last

Are these men all cowards? Nope, just reasonable. I know there are plenty of men on the internet who are all about "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead," based on your avatar I trust you are familiar with at least one. In reality, guns blazing is not always the best call or the better part of valor.

[Ronin13]

Jumping in a little late... but I have a question:
Who here honestly trains for that one in a thousand situation where you'll engage a target beyond 25M? 25M is the max range I train for with a pistol. Why? 90% of all shootouts happen within 25 feet. Do you guys realize how far 100M actually is? It's a bit longer than an NFL football field. Go to your local high school, stand in one endzone and look at the other, or have your friend stand in the other. See how small he is? I never train for engaging a target at that range with a pistol. Sure I can make steel sing at 600M with a 5.56mm AR- but the target is about 65% the size of a fullsize man! I guess all the superman hero types here would attempt to put down a threat at 65+ meters, but I don't plan or train for that particular situation and really see no need to. The #1 and 2 situations I train for is the thug with a knife trying to take my wallet or car and he's at about 2-10 feet. I don't train for a situation that would either A) get me fucking shot, or B) get me fucking shot a lot. I'm not sure about you guys, but the first time I handled an AK-47, it was not sighted to my eye, I had very little formal training on it (as this was the first formal training), and I hit damn near perfect every time. It's an easy weapon, point and shoot. You take a .40 pistol vs a AK-47, I don't give a shit if you're a 20 year veteran of SEAL Team 6 with over 2500hrs in the kill house with your Sig, at 65M the guy with the rifle has a far superior advantage, even if you manage to hit him you're coming under fire and you better hope whatever deity you worship likes you that day. Don't mean to be a dick, but I've trained for combat situations using weapons that range from a 50 Cal crew served weapon at 1000M, to a combat 9mm pistol at 15M, and I can tell you I'd rather not engage a target at over 35M with a pistol, and I don't plan on training for that long shot situation. It goes against my thinking. Why would I use my AR to try to engage a target beyond it's maximum effective range? Just to prove I'm a bad mofo? I leave that shit to Hollywood.

[Byte Stryke]

you guys are SOOOOO Asking for Atrain to pull out his GSG1911 with the Trijicon long range 5-20x50 sniper scope and school you in how its done...

he shoots pop cans at 100 yards and hits everytime


[ROFL1]

sorry... I had to

[Bailey Guns]

No...he really does.

[TFOGGER]

Solution: Keep a rifle ready to go. 65m headshot with a scoped rifle, from cover, easy. Or call in an airstrike.

[Ronin13]

Solution: Keep a rifle ready to go. 65m headshot with a scoped rifle, from cover, easy. Or call in an airstrike.

Ah the old Cav Scout mantra: If all else fails call in arty!

[Bailey Guns]

Or call in an airstrike.

Sharpienads...where are you?

[Irving]

What if the 2 top back in the corner has already been waiting 15 minutes for their pulled pork sandwiches? Holster your gun hotshot, and get my damn food out here, I've only got 45 for lunch!

[Atrain1]

I honestly dont think any of us would have taken that shot I dont care what everyone says and most of you agree, I would bet some would second guess with a Rifle, I dont know how many of you have been shot at but it is not my idea of fun, it is downright scary and if you disagree you either dont care about your life or are just not smart or have never been in that situation. Also unless you have been in a situation were you have had to fight for your life you have no idea what you are capable of you can think all you want but will never know. I have seen so many people talk about taking a human life and not lose any sleep that night, you have no idea what you are talking about, it is a very hard thing to do and will mess with you for the rest of your life no matter what the reason is if indeed you can do it, we were not made to kill each other if it does not mess with you than you are not right in the head, when you have someones head in your crosshairs and your finger on that trigger I would really like to see how many of you would really pull it.

[Zundfolge]

If nothing else we should practice at some extreme distance with our carry pieces because it looks like fun.

GmMEg4y54Dk


Again, I don't blame the guy for not taking the shot (Especially at 65 yards) but my earlier point is that you don't have to pull off a 1-shot-kill headshot from that range, you just need to convince the guy to stop shooting at innocent/unarmed people. If that means he turns his gun in your direction, that will suck but its going to be harder for him to hit you than the people 5 feet away from him.

[Mick-Boy]

I've got some steel IPSC targets (ABC zones). I'll bring them out and we can pepsi challenge this bad boy.

[Byte Stryke]

v2cnop15VA8

Hell this guy is good

[Atrain1]

If nothing else we should practice at some extreme distance with our carry pieces because it looks like fun.

GmMEg4y54Dk


Again, I don't blame the guy for not taking the shot (Especially at 65 yards) but my earlier point is that you don't have to pulleing off a 1-shot-kill headshot from that range, you just need to convince the guy to stop shooting at innocent/unarmed people. If that means he turns his gun in your direction, that will suck but its going to be harder for him to hit you than the people 5 feet away from him. I understand it can be done I just hit a milk jug on a hill 200 yards out with my 7.62x25 TTC but I was not shooting at a guy holding an AK47, just for a second put yourself in that guys shoes he is stairing at a guy moving with an AK47 65 yards away, at most this guy probably has your average ccw training were you are shooting at targets 4 to 7 feet away and probably had a 380 or something along those lines, now obviously the guy with the AK is a KILLER the BBQ guy probably not. The closest this guy has probably come to seeing much less being up against an AK47 is in a video game. So with the Human moving target holding a very large Rifle with a very powerful nasty 7.62x39 which will zip right through a car and or building I can understand the guy not taking the shot, now what he should not have done was gone to the press and talked about it, I may have got it wrong but I do believe he went on and said he had a clear shot but did not take it.

[Zundfolge]

I've done the inaction in the face of an armed criminal once ... was two decades ago and still bothers me to this day. YMMV but I'd rather get shot than live through that kind of guilt/shame/regret again.

[Byte Stryke]

I understand it can be done I just hit a milk jug on a hill 200 yards out with my 7.62x25 TTC but I was not shooting at a guy holding an AK47, just for a second put yourself in that guys shoes he is stairing at a guy moving with an AK47 65 yards away, at most this guy probably has your average ccw training were you are shooting at targets 4 to 7 feet away and probably had a 380 or something along those lines, now obviously the guy with the AK is a KILLER the BBQ guy probably not. The closest this guy has probably come to seeing much less being up against an AK47 is in a video game. So with the Human moving target holding a very large Rifle with a very powerful nasty 7.62x39 which will zip right through a car and or building I can understand the guy not taking the shot, now what he should not have done was gone to the press and talked about it, I may have got it wrong but I do believe he went on and said he had a clear shot but did not take it.


agreed
not to mention the gong is stationary, winds are calm and the area is shrouded in trees. Familiar area and in this scenario, Missing has no repercussions.

The last thing you wants is an errant round bouncing through a parking lot at a crowded restaurant.

I would rather NOT take the shot at range, quickly move closer if I felt that I Must act(Family Member in IHOP), take a shot within my comfort range (<30 yards)

[Atrain1]

I've done the inaction in the face of an armed criminal once ... was two decades ago and still bothers me to this day. YMMV but I'd rather get shot than live through that kind of guilt/shame/regret again.Thank you finally someone that knows, I got into a knife fight when I was 17 stabbed him 2 times, it was self defense but I will never forget it.

[Byte Stryke]

GREAT... so the demons are awake... who wants to sit up with me all night?

[Atrain1]

GREAT... so the demons are awake... who wants to sit up with me all night? Go ahead man speak what is on your mind, that is what we are all here for right?

[spyder]

[ROFL1] ya byte, tell us what is getting at you per your last comment! [ROFL1]

[Atrain1]

agreed
not to mention the gong is stationary, winds are calm and the area is shrouded in trees. Familiar area and in this scenario, Missing has no repercussions.

The last thing you wants is an errant round bouncing through a parking lot at a crowded restaurant.

I would rather NOT take the shot at range, quickly move closer if I felt that I Must act(Family Member in IHOP), take a shot within my comfort range (<30 yards) I would Die for my wife and Kids so at that point I am with you I would have closed the distance and taken the shot, because without them I would have nothing to live for. But still that was a pretty good shot with that little glock.

[Byte Stryke]

Thank you finally someone that knows, I got into a knife fight when I was 17 stabbed him 2 times, it was self defense but I will never forget it.


GREAT... so the demons are awake... who wants to sit up with me all night?


Go ahead man speak what is on your mind, that is what we are all here for right?


[ROFL1] ya byte, tell us what is getting at you per your last comment! [ROFL1]


Anyone that's met me and looked at my face can probably tell you.

[Atrain1]

Anyone that's met me and looked at my face can probably tell you. I have not met you so I dont know, but sounds to me like you have probably got interesting stories to tell of your own.

[mcantar18c]

I have seen so many people talk about taking a human life and not lose any sleep that night, you have no idea what you are talking about, it is a very hard thing to do and will mess with you for the rest of your life no matter what the reason is if indeed you can do it, we were not made to kill each other if it does not mess with you than you are not right in the head, when you have someones head in your crosshairs and your finger on that trigger I would really like to see how many of you would really pull it.

While you are correct on most people having a instinctive resistance to killing another man (like buck fever x50), not everybody does. Some are criminal psychopaths, but some are... something different. Its entirely about mindset.
The rest of your post hurts my brain too much to respond to it.
Can't you go back to whatever it is that was keeping you from being annoying?

[Byte Stryke]

GREAT... so the demons are awake... who wants to sit up with me all night?

Y58xMOx-qsQ


So, perusing Facebook, one of my Brothers shared this with me.

and I am sharing it with all of my brothers here that cant come home when we close our eyes.



talk about a threadjack.

[Atrain1]

While you are correct on most people having a instinctive resistance to killing another man (like buck fever x50), not everybody does. Some are criminal psychopaths, but some are... something different. Its entirely about mindset.
The rest of your post hurts my brain too much to respond to it.
Can't you go back to whatever it is that was keeping you from being annoying? I dont understand what hurts your head, is it because I am right, a psychopath is what I had in mind when I said that some people that wont lose sleep over taking a mans life are not right in the head. What it comes down to and I will put it simple you were not there you have no idea what you would have done because you were not there. I dont know your background or what type of skills you have with a firearm, but I do know mine despite what you think cause of some post I put up, I am really good with a pistol, and a human sized target is a very easy shot at 65 yards but when everything else comes into play it changes everything. Now I do agree with you on training with your weapon I do every chance I get, I have every since I was a kid when I used to live in Idaho all I had to do was shoot, and all I had to shoot was a Colt Delta Elite 10mm, I out shot my uncle first time that thing was placed in my hand he was a Marine. The only thing that would make me take someones life if my family was in danger and that was the only way out, I have talked my way out of a few situations I could have used my gun in and would have been a justified shooting, the only reason I have them is a tool to protect my family,

[mcantar18c]

Maybe this helps you understand. A little punctuation goes a long way...


I don't understand what hurts your head. Is it because I am right? A psychopath is what I had in mind when I said that [some](<- unneeded word) people that wont lose sleep over taking a man's life are not right in the head. What it comes down to, and I will put it simply, you were not there and you have no idea what you would have done because [you were not there] (unneeded words, already stated). I don't know your background or what type of skills you have with a firearm, but I do know mine. Despite what you think cause of some posts I put up I am really good with a pistol, and a human sized target is a very easy shot at 65 yards, but when everything else comes into play it changes everything. Now I do agree with you on training with your weapon; I do every chance I get. I have ever[y](should not be a "y" there) since I was a kid when I used to live in Idaho and all I had to do was shoot. [and] All I had to shoot was a Colt Delta Elite 10mm, andI out shot my uncle first time that thing was placed in my hand... and he was a Marine. The only thing that would make me take someones life is if my family was in danger and that was the only way out. I have talked my way out of a few situations I could have used my gun in and would have been [a] justified shooting, the only reason I have them is as a tool to protect my family.

Now I try not to be a grammar nazi, but when I have to actually put effort into reading your posts, its kinda of a pain in the ass.

Now as for responding to your post...


I dont understand what hurts your head, is it because I am right, a psychopath is what I had in mind when I said that some people that wont lose sleep over taking a mans life are not right in the head.
There ARE people that can kill a man that needed killin' and then sleep like a baby that same night, yet are perfectly sane people otherwise. They are not introverted, hostile, and indiscriminate in their aggression and violence like a psychopath. Its all about mindset (which, as discussed earlier in this thread, might more nature than nurture). The people I know that can, have, and do do this are people with a very strong sense of right and wrong, a clear understanding of what needs to be done, and a solid belief of why they're on this earth. The man in the bus incident I posted as an example went home, had a couple cocktails to wind down, and slept like a baby that night. Just because YOU may not be one of these people (and there's nothing wrong with that), doesn't mean that they must all be psychopaths.


What it comes down to and I will put it simple you were not there you have no idea what you would have done because you were not there.
So we can only be critical of others' actions if we're right there next to them?

[Atrain1]

Maybe this helps you understand. A little punctuation goes a long way...



Now I try not to be a grammar nazi, but when I have to actually put effort into reading your posts, its kinda of a pain in the ass.

Now as for responding to your post...


There ARE people that can kill a man that needed killin' and then sleep like a baby that same night, yet are perfectly sane people otherwise. They are not introverted, hostile, and indiscriminate in their aggression and violence like a psychopath. Its all about mindset (which, as discussed earlier in this thread, might more nature than nurture). The people I know that can, have, and do do this are people with a very strong sense of right and wrong, a clear understanding of what needs to be done, and a solid belief of why they're on this earth. The man in the bus incident I posted as an example went home, had a couple cocktails to wind down, and slept like a baby that night. Just because YOU may not be one of these people (and there's nothing wrong with that), doesn't mean that they must all be psychopaths.


So we can only be critical of others' actions if we're right there next to them?Sorry grammar is not me best subject. All I am saying is how many of us would have really engaged a man with a AK47 with a carry pistol or taken a shot at him 65 yards away while moving. I know I would not have unless I had to, I honestly do not know what I would do if I personally saw him kill someone I would have to be in that situation, and I have been shot at a few times. There is just to much risk the guy had, if he would have made one mistake he would have been done either by the BG or our legal system. My AK47 has 40 rd mags my carry gun depending on which one Revolver or semi 7 and 6 rds you dont have to much room for mistake there. Just try and put yourself in this guys place and ask yourself if you would have really done something. I dont buy that there are perfectly sane people with nothing wrong upstairs that can kill a man and not lose any sleep, I can do it if it needs to be done and I know that for a fact but I am sure going to lose sleep and never forget about it. Psychopaths wont lose any sleep and would most likely get off on it.

[strm_trpr]

I think as a civilian he made the right move. An off duty LEO in the same situation may have been a different story, that being said we are trained not to go into an active shooter situation without at minimum 2 other LEOs. So, I have no idea what I would have done. I garonte that if I had my summer carry (LCP) I would not engage from that range or any range unless directly threatened, and I certainly would not have told the press who I was or that I was armed.

[Ronin13]

Let's break this down, shall we?
1) Killing someone is no small task, and it's a heavy weight on one's conscious. However, killing someone to save someone else makes the burden less.
I would not take the shot at distance, but I know tactically I could close the distance and engage the target effectively regardless of weapons involved (if there is adequate cover/concealment- and I know the difference between the two).
2) Getting shot with an AK is not fun... I have friends who have been wounded quite badly by AK fire- one can't kick a soccer ball now because of it and his walking is aided by a cane.
3) I'll just use that old quote: "We must all fear evil men, but there is one thing we must fear even more, and that is the indifference of good men!"
So tell ya what, let's just say I'll kill the bad guys for those unable to, since it's not a huge deal anymore (thanks US Army!) and we can go on about our happy lives knowing there is one less person to harm the innocent. [Beer]

[Atrain1]

I think as a civilian he made the right move. An off duty LEO in the same situation may have been a different story, that being said we are trained not to go into an active shooter situation without at minimum 2 other LEOs. So, I have no idea what I would have done. I garonte that if I had my summer carry (LCP) I would not engage from that range or any range unless directly threatened, and I certainly would not have told the press who I was or that I was armed. I think he hit the nail right on the head, I was thinking the same exact thing and talked to a few of my leo friends they said the same thing. It is really easy to sit here and type out on a forum what you would do, completely different when it is happening.

[Irving]

I thought LEOs ARE civilians?

[Atrain1]

I thought LEOs ARE civilians? Law Enforcement Officer LEO, I am sure you knew that and are just messing around, but hey you never know.

[mcantar18c]

Sorry grammar is not me best subject. All I am saying is how many of us would have really engaged a man with a AK47 with a carry pistol or taken a shot at him 65 yards away while moving. I know I would not have unless I had to, I honestly do not know what I would do if I personally saw him kill someone I would have to be in that situation, and I have been shot at a few times. There is just to much risk the guy had, if he would have made one mistake he would have been done either by the BG or our legal system. My AK47 has 40 rd mags my carry gun depending on which one Revolver or semi 7 and 6 rds you dont have to much room for mistake there. Just try and put yourself in this guys place and ask yourself if you would have really done something. I dont buy that there are perfectly sane people with nothing wrong upstairs that can kill a man and not lose any sleep, I can do it if it needs to be done and I know that for a fact but I am sure going to lose sleep and never forget about it. Psychopaths wont lose any sleep and would most likely get off on it.
Dabble around in psychology a bit. You'll be shocked at everything you don't know that you don't know.


I think as a civilian he made the right move. An off duty LEO in the same situation may have been a different story, that being said we are trained not to go into an active shooter situation without at minimum 2 other LEOs. So, I have no idea what I would have done. I garonte that if I had my summer carry (LCP) I would not engage from that range or any range unless directly threatened, and I certainly would not have told the press who I was or that I was armed.
I don't see how the response should be any different between a man in a t-shirt and a man in a blue uniform. Its the mindset of the individual that makes a difference, not the profession.


I thought LEOs ARE civilians?
They are... unless you're a LEO.

[DANGERTASTIC!]

I don't see how the response should be any different between a man in a t-shirt and a man in a blue uniform. Its the mindset of the individual that makes a difference, not the profession..

I couldnt agree more. Just because some people wear a badge doesnt mean they are emotionless robots.

I have PERSONALLY seen LEOs FREEZE when they should be drawing a Taser or weapon.

Having a badge doesnt mean anything except they have authority.

This is a subject I get touchy on because people think they (LEOs) have some sort of superior firearms abilities or have a higher intelligence quotient due to an academy they attended or some testing/training, when often that is completely OPPOSITE of those assumptions

Cops dont start out as cops...they start out as people just like everyone else

[Byte Stryke]

I couldnt agree more. Just because some people wear a badge doesnt mean they are emotionless robots.

I have PERSONALLY seen LEOs FREEZE when they should be drawing a Taser or weapon.

Having a badge doesnt mean anything except they have authority.

This is a subject I get touchy on because people think they (LEOs) have some sort of superior firearms abilities or have a higher intelligence quotient due to an academy they attended or some testing/training, when often that is completely OPPOSITE of those assumptions

Cops dont start out as cops...they start out as people just like everyone else

There are Veterans, as well as "Civilians" I would rather have on my 6 than a street cop from surburb-ville-ranch.
Nothing against Cops, but I would rather have a marine that served in Khafji 20 years ago than a patrol officer that shoots a speed gun all day.

[DD977GM2]

Here is my big question for those who have responded,

How many real life firefights have you been in and did you stick to your training 100% during the engagement?

I know I didnt the first timme hadji tried to get me, then about 15-20 sec later as I was behind cover, my training kicked in and Im here today.

[DANGERTASTIC!]

Sure. I can agree with that also.

Just as it can be a marine that has never seen combat as a cop that is terrified for confrontation....just because someone is a civvie doesnt mean they lack in a particular skill or have any less courage for a particular situation

[mcantar18c]

Here is my big question for those who have responded,

How many real life firefights have you been in and did you stick to your training 100&#37; during the engagement?

I know I didnt the first timme hadji tried to get me, then about 15-20 sec later as I was behind cover, my training kicked in and Im here today.

To answer your questions:
Have I ever been in a firefight?
No.
Have I reverted to my training 100% during encounters?
Not 100%. Parts, yes, but not all. But then, I don't see the actual "training moves" as the reason we train. The confidence in yourself and your abilities that training builds is what's important, and IMO its having that confidence that helps you the most.

So, no firefights. However I have been shot at, and after the initial "What the f*ck was that? Kind of sounded like a round whizzing by.... Is this really happening? Oh shit!" I was able to think clearly and do what I had to do (got the hell out of there, using cover and concealment... yes I know the difference... no training in doing so at the time, just seemed like the logical thing to do).
I've been in fights where weapons were drawn on me and handled it well. One of those times was in a brawl at my old business... he had a weapon, a broken bottle in his hand, and I reacted. I elbowed him hard in the trachea, which in theory would have crushed it and cut off the airway, and he went down. It was a good 20 min before the cops and ambulances arrived. Don't know what happened to him, but I don't imagine the odds were in his favor. I don't think he lived, and I have no remorse about this... nor do I see why I should.
I've also drawn weapons in encounters, never initiated though (reactive vs. proactive). 3 times with a gun, 4 with a knife. All but one the presence of a weapon with the clear intent to use it and not showing them fear was enough for them to back down without going further. That one time was with a knife, though I didn't have any training with a blade at the time and don't think I did any unfixable damage. I slashed, he ran away (its mostly stabs that kill, which I didn't know at the time). All the times I've drawn I was strangely calm, my thoughts were clear, and I was sure of my intentions.

This is why I say mindset is the most important thing. Here's how I see it:
If I draw a weapon, I'm going to kill you. If I wasn't going to kill you, I wouldn't have drawn. By drawing my weapon, you're already dead... I've already "killed" you in my mind, all that's left is to go through the motions physically. Having "done it" mentally, the physical part becomes easy. The other part of that is if I saw any other way to stop the situation I wouldn't have drawn, therefore using that weapon is the only way out, and thus I am justified in using it.
If I had the mindset of "Oh shit I just drew a weapon. I don't want to kill this man. Oh crap I may have to kill this man. Can I do it? How will I live with myself? blah blah blah" I don't think I would be able to handle situations the way I have.
Mindset is everything.

[DD977GM2]

To answer your questions: [sic]


From your post......your a scrapper at heart, mindset of self preservation(who doesnt have some self preservation)....or your one of the few who are not like the rest of us. I was trained decently with the Navy and also grew up scrapping and learned some fighting techniques from my Dad(former Marine Vietnam).

Im a damn good shot with my 1911 at 127 yards and can hit steal around 80&#37; of the time(STEAL DOESNT SHOOT BACK). From 9mm, 40S&W, 45 ACP, 357 mag, 44 mag and 41 mag that I have shot at my steel target at 127 yards I have found quiet a few rounds that didnt impact the target that were way low still intact well before the target. So still had plenty of velocity yet no real damage to the bullet itself.

Mcantar, based on your experience you stated, you will refute this possibly(sorry late to reading this thread), if you engaged from the shop across the street the POS in Nevada at 65 yards roughly you will basically hurt the shooter significantly. IF, big if IMHO, you hit him in a decent enough location to cause him to drop his weapon etc etc. Logic and even veteran folks who have faced real combat in military,LEO or civilian life (combat in this instance is actual events of being fired upon and returning fire in any capacity and you lived) with some of the best of training will not hit a vital enough area to drastically turn the tides of the fight. The gunman will most likely, again IMHO, turn towards the threat and engage you and like others have said...a car is a POS for cover from rounds, especially 7.62x39.

I havnt read the entire account of that day and how the fucker moved, but my guess is he wasnt a terrible shot at the worst. Im gonna call BS about the 100m, yes One Hundred meters, hitting MOH or whatever you want to call it. How fast is a 45 round going at 100m? Its only getting slower every foot it travels from the barrel right??? If its a 9mm round, then well good luck with that. I have first hand experience with CQB with a POS M9 and the effects it DOESNT perform oon targets. As per you, its still 100m, right? Or will this change magically to 100 ft.

In all honestly, Im not buying your response to my question. You sound like all the damn roughnecks I encounter who want to fight a guy who hasnt roughnecked(I have worked as hard in other jobs for longer periods of time then most out here already), making more $$ then them and still working in the oilfield in what the roughnecks consider a prestigious position.

Not trying to be a dick, but I kinda tell it like it is. At least my perspective.

[Ronin13]

There are Veterans, as well as "Civilians" I would rather have on my 6 than a street cop from surburb-ville-ranch.
Nothing against Cops, but I would rather have a marine that served in Khafji 20 years ago than a patrol officer that shoots a speed gun all day.

+1
I've never been in an active combat situation where I've fired my weapon at a human- however, as a caveat, I have been in a "passive" combat situation where I've trained my weapon on a living person and went through several mental steps to prepare myself for what might happen (IE: that pink mist we all hear about). About 20min later I soon realized I was fully ready to take a life and move on without hesitation or a second thought, had I become so callous? Then realized what unforgettable image would be burned into my mind if/when I zippered a guy with 10-15 rounds of 7.62 from an M240B mounted machine gun... You tell me a cop that can take on that mental burden and I'll pick them to be on my team, otherwise I'll take the guy that spends his weekends punching paper and doing protective drills so his ass stays alive in the SHTF scenario we all pray never happens but prepare for constantly. It's not just about training, but mental preparation. When you're prone, in the rain, for hours on end screaming "KILL!" with 14 other guys winking at a silhouette at 150M while holding an M-16 and people who have seen combat telling you to "Shoot that motherfucker!" you kinda have a change of mental abilities and processes that really do die hard.

[Mick-Boy]

So..... Who's down to take the pepsi challenge? I'll bring the steel and a laser range finder.

[Atrain1]

So..... Who's down to take the pepsi challenge? I'll bring the steel and a laser range finder. Is there going to be a guy with a AK47 shooting at us?

[Tweety Bird]

To answer your questions:
Have I ever been in a firefight?
No.
Have I reverted to my training 100&#37; during encounters?
Not 100%. Parts, yes, but not all. But then, I don't see the actual "training moves" as the reason we train. The confidence in yourself and your abilities that training builds is what's important, and IMO its having that confidence that helps you the most.

So, no firefights. However I have been shot at, and after the initial "What the f*ck was that? Kind of sounded like a round whizzing by.... Is this really happening? Oh shit!" I was able to think clearly and do what I had to do (got the hell out of there, using cover and concealment... yes I know the difference... no training in doing so at the time, just seemed like the logical thing to do).
I've been in fights where weapons were drawn on me and handled it well. One of those times was in a brawl at my old business... he had a weapon, a broken bottle in his hand, and I reacted. I elbowed him hard in the trachea, which in theory would have crushed it and cut off the airway, and he went down. It was a good 20 min before the cops and ambulances arrived. Don't know what happened to him, but I don't imagine the odds were in his favor. I don't think he lived, and I have no remorse about this... nor do I see why I should.
I've also drawn weapons in encounters, never initiated though (reactive vs. proactive). 3 times with a gun, 4 with a knife. All but one the presence of a weapon with the clear intent to use it and not showing them fear was enough for them to back down without going further. That one time was with a knife, though I didn't have any training with a blade at the time and don't think I did any unfixable damage. I slashed, he ran away (its mostly stabs that kill, which I didn't know at the time). All the times I've drawn I was strangely calm, my thoughts were clear, and I was sure of my intentions.

This is why I say mindset is the most important thing. Here's how I see it:
If I draw a weapon, I'm going to kill you. If I wasn't going to kill you, I wouldn't have drawn. By drawing my weapon, you're already dead... I've already "killed" you in my mind, all that's left is to go through the motions physically. Having "done it" mentally, the physical part becomes easy. The other part of that is if I saw any other way to stop the situation I wouldn't have drawn, therefore using that weapon is the only way out, and thus I am justified in using it.
If I had the mindset of "Oh shit I just drew a weapon. I don't want to kill this man. Oh crap I may have to kill this man. Can I do it? How will I live with myself? blah blah blah" I don't think I would be able to handle situations the way I have.
Mindset is everything.

I'm confused.

How do you elbow someone in the trachea, wait around for 20 minutes for the flashing lights to arrive, and not know whether the guy lived or not? Seems to me, the authorities would be spending a lot of time with you whether he survived or not, especially if it was at your business.

I'm raising the BS flag but will freely admit that since I wasn't there, I don't have all the facts. But the story doesn't seem plausible to me.

And you don't draw a weapon to kill somebody; you draw it to stop the threat. PERIOD. While that may mean taking a life, it also may not. Talk like automatically taking the life of someone if you draw your pistol will get you in lots of trouble. I suspect a jury wouldn't be very kind to you if they knew you said something like that, even if the shoot was justified.

That's why I said earlier that some of these posts scare me.

Tough talk is easy.

[Great-Kazoo]

So..... Who's down to take the pepsi challenge? I'll bring the steel and a laser range finder.

I've already asked this same quest a few pages ago. I want money on it to make it worth my while. No takers on that either. Anyone up in NOCO up for this??

[Atrain1]

I've already asked this same quest a few pages ago. I want money on it to make it worth my while. No takers on that either. Anyone up in NOCO up for this?? You are missing the whole point, it has nothing to do with hitting a stationary target.

[Great-Kazoo]

You are missing the whole point, it has nothing to do with hitting a stationary target.

I am aware of that, i requested the shooter (for those that can) run back from the target 100 yds do some PE. Back towards 2 targets when told to turn and engage said target 2 rounds down range, with designated target called out once the shooter is facing down range. I know for a fact under duress i'm kissing dirt versus being a hero UNLESS i or a loved one is the target. Under stress i doubt with bullets flying i or most folks could successfully engage a target much less another person at distance with a handgun. I would give it a go ONLY if my confidence level is up. The missed rounds again get you a potential homicide charge

[Atrain1]

I am aware of that, i requested the shooter (for those that can) run back from the target 100 yds do some PE. Back towards 2 targets when told to turn and engage said target 2 rounds down range, with designated target called out once the shooter is facing down range. I know for a fact under duress i'm kissing dirt versus being a hero UNLESS i or a loved one is the target. Under stress i doubt with bullets flying i or most folks could successfully engage a target much less another person at distance with a handgun. I would give it a go ONLY if my confidence level is up. The missed rounds again get you a potential homicide charge I am @ work so I cant get into it right now, but I will when I get home.

[rocktot]

Some believe handguns are for 10yds only

Even at 10 Yards you have to hit him and no one else. Plus Adrenaline, plus you just saw someone get shot. I think I'd do something, but why did no one in the PC house have a gun? Are there cars behind him, other shops? On a moving target?

65 Yards, not here, unless he is gunning for me. Then, I would be worried about ammo, reload, ownership. Maybe 30 under duress with lots of luck. Maniac with a gun, he would need to be total incapacitated. Thats like 3 GOOD shots.

[mcantar18c]

I'm confused.

How do you elbow someone in the trachea, wait around for 20 minutes for the flashing lights to arrive, and not know whether the guy lived or not? Seems to me, the authorities would be spending a lot of time with you whether he survived or not, especially if it was at your business.

I'm raising the BS flag but will freely admit that since I wasn't there, I don't have all the facts. But the story doesn't seem plausible to me.

And you don't draw a weapon to kill somebody; you draw it to stop the threat. PERIOD. While that may mean taking a life, it also may not. Talk like automatically taking the life of someone if you draw your pistol will get you in lots of trouble. I suspect a jury wouldn't be very kind to you if they knew you said something like that, even if the shoot was justified.

That's why I said earlier that some of these posts scare me.

Tough talk is easy.
It was a big (60+ people) chaotic brawl. A female on "our side" got caught up in the middle of everything, I watched some fuck punch her in the head and she went down. The only thing on my mind was to get to here and get her out of there. I'm pushing my way through everything, and there's guy holding the neck of a broken bottle directly in my way looking right at me. I reacted (actually, this could be considered reverting to my training, as we'd been working heavily on elbows that week in Krav), and he grabbed his throat and went down. Kept pushing my way to the girl, dragged her into the corner and stood over her absorbing blows until a buddy helped get us back into the door and into the back room, where I spent the rest of the time getting her fixed up. How the guys on the "other side" fared after I had interacted with them was none of my concern.
Of course I had to give a statement to the police, but I didn't sit there going "Yeah I crushed that guys trachea, might have broken that one's jaw, might wanna check this one for a concussion..." just gave a basic overview of how things went down and asked if there was anything I could help with.
I don't care what happened to the guy, and I don't see any reason why I should or why it should bother me. He had a weapon in his hand and would have used it, it was me or him and I got to go home to my girlfriend that night. Not to mention that the girl I was after had heart issues and wouldn't have made it had she been left laying there unconscious being kicked and whatnot, according to the EMTs.

I guess you draw your weapon to intimidate people then? My goal is to stop the threat, and I have plenty of methods in my toolbox available to me to do so. If I've exercised every other option available to me then I'm left with no choice but to kill in order to stop the threat, and if I have a weapon I will use it to do so. If I didn't have to... if there was any other way... I wouldn't have drawn my weapon, be it a gun, knife, or anything else. If I do draw a weapon, its because killing is required. If they happen to back down at the sight of that weapon, great, but I'm not drawing it to scare them away.
To put it simply...
If I didn't have to kill, I wouldn't have drawn a weapon.
If I draw a weapon, its because killing is my only option left.



I've already asked this same quest a few pages ago. I want money on it to make it worth my while. No takers on that either. Anyone up in NOCO up for this??
Uhh.....


With all the tough or as some see it MANdatory actions be taken talk, No One has taken me up on the 2 targets and betting drill, very disappointed. Surely someone would have stepped up instead of sitting on the sidelines without doing anything.:)
$10 per round 2 rounds max. i'll up it to $20 per round 2 rounds max. lets put some money where our bragging rights go.


I agreed to it...
While it would be much easier with the setup I'm getting soon, we don't need to wait till then.

[jhood001]

I guess you draw your weapon to intimidate people then?

You said you have drawn a firearm 3 times. I'm assuming then that you have 3 human deaths on your conscience?

[MrPrena]

I think this thread and a "keyboard commando" thread has some kinda connection.

http://co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45917

[DD977GM2]

Funny how MCanter hasnt responded to me calling his story BS and what not. Yet he has answered others that have followed my post.

................................................Wa iting for a neat response from MCanter based mainly on my grammier skillz.

[DOC]

I feel like a trooper in the field. I have no carry pistol to speak of just an AR and shit ton of AK around me. And I can stop any man sized target at that range with the first shot making the following 3 or 4 just gravy for the guy until he hits the ground.

But I would pause before shooting. I just hope he doesn't shoot me before I get him. It takes a lot more that I want to write right now. My hands hurt from putting a fence up and I don't want to type.

Let me just say that I hope that anyone of you out there that carry have the brass balls to save my ass one day if a democrat psycho trys to shoot up a buffet or hummer dealership because they see it as bad.

[mcantar18c]

Funny how MCanter hasnt responded to me calling his story BS and what not. Yet he has answered others that have followed my post.

................................................Wa iting for a neat response from MCanter based mainly on my grammier skillz.
Based mainly on your grammar skills? Kinda expected more from you.
Must have missed that post... here, is this the one you're talking about?


From your post......your a scrapper at heart, mindset of self preservation(who doesnt have some self preservation)....or your one of the few who are not like the rest of us. I was trained decently with the Navy and also grew up scrapping and learned some fighting techniques from my Dad(former Marine Vietnam).
Not sure what you're expecting me to say to that.

Im a damn good shot with my 1911 at 127 yards and can hit steal around 80% of the time(STEAL DOESNT SHOOT BACK). From 9mm, 40S&W, 45 ACP, 357 mag, 44 mag and 41 mag that I have shot at my steel target at 127 yards I have found quiet a few rounds that didnt impact the target that were way low still intact well before the target. So still had plenty of velocity yet no real damage to the bullet itself.
Sooo.... you shot low. Good for you. Again, not sure what I'm supposed to be saying to this.

Mcantar, based on your experience you stated, you will refute this possibly(sorry late to reading this thread), if you engaged from the shop across the street the POS in Nevada at 65 yards roughly you will basically hurt the shooter significantly. IF, big if IMHO, you hit him in a decent enough location to cause him to drop his weapon etc etc. Logic and even veteran folks who have faced real combat in military,LEO or civilian life (combat in this instance is actual events of being fired upon and returning fire in any capacity and you lived) with some of the best of training will not hit a vital enough area to drastically turn the tides of the fight. The gunman will most likely, again IMHO, turn towards the threat and engage you and like others have said...a car is a POS for cover from rounds, especially 7.62x39.
You, like a lot of others, missed what I said. Cars offer concealment, engine blocks offer cover, not the other way around. No, its not very good, but if you're in the middle of a parking lot and its the only thing between you and the shooter its better than standing out in the open.

I havnt read the entire account of that day and how the fucker moved, but my guess is he wasnt a terrible shot at the worst. Im gonna call BS about the 100m, yes One Hundred meters, hitting MOH or whatever you want to call it. How fast is a 45 round going at 100m? Its only getting slower every foot it travels from the barrel right??? If its a 9mm round, then well good luck with that. I have first hand experience with CQB with a POS M9 and the effects it DOESNT perform oon targets. As per you, its still 100m, right? Or will this change magically to 100ft.
Its been 100 yards since I first mentioned it. I also agreed to the challenge/competition/bet/whatever that Jim posted. It seems you're just going on about that for the sake of going on about it.
So are you volunteering to be the target for the challenge then? I mean you seem pretty confident that A) I can't hit you at that range and B) Even if I did it wouldn't do much.... what do you have to lose?
(Mods, please don't take that as me making a threat, by no means is that my intention)

In all honestly, Im not buying your response to my question. You sound like all the damn roughnecks I encounter who want to fight a guy who hasnt roughnecked(I have worked as hard in other jobs for longer periods of time then most out here already), making more $$ then them and still working in the oilfield in what the roughnecks consider a prestigious position.
Don't recall the question.

Not trying to be a dick, but I kinda tell it like it is. At least my perspective.



You said you have drawn a firearm 3 times. I'm assuming then that you have 3 human deaths on your conscience?
You know what they say about assuming. I touched on those situations in that same post, right after the part where I said that.
Drawing a weapon doesn't mean you end up using it. But it'd damn well better mean you have the full intent of doing so, for plenty of reasons I'm sure you already know.

[Graves]

poop.

Just...poop.

[bobbyfairbanks]

Mccanter you are a walking time bomb.

Have you ever thought about what you would do if you engaged a target with a pistol at 100yds when you, yourself was not being threatened. You could just leave and you would be safe. What if you amazing shooting skills failed you. Ever hear of accountability of your rds.

I loved your challenge for the guy to stand in front of you while you pull the trigger. What is that? Of course no one sane is going to take you up on that. Chances are though you are going to miss. A 22" wide target at 100yds while bad shit is happening is a lot tougher shot than you think.

Over all after reading this entire thread (I really wish I didn't), I think you need to turn in your CCW. You are either going to go to jail for being an idiot or you are going to get your self killed.

Stay safe and think about all these posts about how your Johnny Rambo all the time. A lawyer is gonna find all your spray online and use it against you, if your ever involved in a shooting or maybe another bar fight.

[Atrain1]

Based mainly on your grammar skills? Kinda expected more from you.
Must have missed that post... here, is this the one you're talking about?





You know what they say about assuming. I touched on those situations in that same post, right after the part where I said that.
Drawing a weapon doesn't mean you end up using it. But it'd damn well better mean you have the full intent of doing so, for plenty of reasons I'm sure you already know. I thought that was the first rule. That is what I have been told all my life and that is what I practice, if I draw my gun that is cause it is going to be used. I had a guy one time while I was working on my car minding my own business come over and start crap with the neighbor. the neighbors new my background I went inside to grab my gun and they started yelling dont go dont go they thought I was just trying to get out of the situation. So my neighbor ends up pulling a gun, and the guy that came over stated if you want to play that way I can to and started going through his back seat, so I put my hand on my gun and got ready to pull it, he never came out with anything. I disarmed my neighbor and almost got shot doing so, talked with the other guy and got it worked out. Now my point did I pull my gun no, was I ready to you bet I was, did anyone know that I even had a gun no, like I said if I have to pull my gun that is going to be the last thing that the guy I pulled it on is going to see.

[Zombie Steve]

There are people that get paid to take on active shooters. I am not one of them. If I have a way out, I'm getting out with my family.

I can't really tell if you're more

http://www.sweetslyrics.com/images/img_gal/25068_charles-bronson-posters.jpg

or more

http://www.alispagnola.com/travisbicklephoto.jpg

Either way, I don't see things ending well. Good luck.

[bobbyfairbanks]

[ROFL2]and [ROFL3]

[Zombie Steve]

Some day a real rain will come and wash all the scum off the streets.

[Coffee]

[BPTactical]

poop.

Just...poop.


[Beer]

[Zombie Steve]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.
At that distance I'll just keep out of the line of fire. I don't carry so I can protect people who won't protect themselves.

I think this sums up my position well. A lack of preparation on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.

[Atrain1]

I think this sums up my position well. A lack of preparation on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.Especially in a state were it is legal to conceal carry without a permit, I agree.

[DOC]

Especially in a state were it is legal to conceal carry without a permit, I agree.
That is not the great state of Colorado.

[bobbyfairbanks]

That is not the great state of Colorado.


The shooting didn't happen in Colorado.

[MED]

Here is my contribution:
The OP needs to understand that every person is different with different abilities. There are numerous tactical training drills that I am unable to perform because of ruptured disk damage and arthritis. I can still do some things well, but running and taking cover are not among them. I can train 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, and the fact that my knees don’t bend won’t change.

I don’t in anyway agree that the individual in question could have neutralized the situation with a 65 yard pistol shot on a moving target with people running around and adrenaline being dumped in his body. Is it possible, yes. Is it probable, no.

If a family member was at risk, then I would be involved without hesitation.

However, if I am a bystander, I have less than a second to consider the following:
1. What happens when his target changes…who am I putting at risk when the AK is bearing down on my position? I would not in any way expect to have a one shot stop at 65 yards from any caliber I use to carry so the chances of this guy changing direction are pretty good.
2. Can I take down this person without putting myself at risk or anybody else? Am I in a position to eliminate the threat? If the answer is no, then it is no.
3. Am I in the way of an LEO or putting myself at risk when one or several arrive?

[TFOGGER]

The shooting didn't happen in Colorado.
Or in a state where they have constitutional carry. Nevada has some of the most asinine requirements for a permit of any state that is "shall issue".

Their "qualification" requirements for live fire are a joke, but are relevant to this thread. The MAXIMUM distance used is 7 (yes, seven) yards.

[Atrain1]

Or in a state where they have constitutional carry. Nevada has some of the most asinine requirements for a permit of any state that is "shall issue".

Their "qualification" requirements for live fire are a joke, but are relevant to this thread. The MAXIMUM distance used is 7 (yes, seven) yards.I thought Nevada was one of the states that you dont have to have a ccw

[TFOGGER]

I thought Nevada was one of the states that you dont have to have a ccw

Nope. Currently, Alaska, Arizona, Wyoming, and Vermont do not require permits for residents.

Nevada only honors permits from the following:
Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Rhode Island, Tennessee, West Virginia

[Graves]

No. Live fire required, that's why Utah's reciprocity was recently booted there. [Bang]

[TFOGGER]

No. Live fire required, that's why Utah's reciprocity was recently booted there. [Bang]

Yeah, I was pissed...Of all the places where a CCW is an excellent idea, Lost Wages is high on the list...

[DOC]

The shooting didn't happen in Colorado.
I didn't what state he was referring to.

[Scanker19]

I'd be more worried about being mistaken for the shooter from other CCWers. That's a situation one should prepare for as well. Even if you don't shoot.

65yrd is a tough shot.

[Graves]

I'd be more worried about being mistaken for the shooter from other CCWers. That's a situation one should prepare for as well. Even if you don't shoot.

65yrd is a tough shot.

This is my biggest fear, the incident where an off duty LEO carrying a rifle was shot and killed on his way into the fight made me rethink a few things. Not everybody will be spot on when trying to determine who's who or even WTF's going on no less.

[Tweety Bird]

You can't fix stoopid.

[Tweety Bird]

I'd be more worried about being mistaken for the shooter from other CCWers. That's a situation one should prepare for as well. Even if you don't shoot.

65yrd is a tough shot.


This is my biggest fear, the incident where an off duty LEO carrying a rifle was shot and killed on his way into the fight made me rethink a few things. Not everybody will be spot on when trying to determine who's who or even WTF's going on no less.

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40738

I tried to bring that up in June and got dumped on for it.

[Scanker19]

This is my biggest fear, the incident where an off duty LEO carrying a rifle was shot and killed on his way into the fight made me rethink a few things. Not everybody will be spot on when trying to determine who's who or even WTF's going on no less.

Exactly, even in a non-mass shooting. Say a guy pulls a knife on you and demands money, but when you draw on him and he surrenders. You should hold him until the Police arrive. Who's to say another CCWer won't draw on you thinking you a mad killer about to shoot up an IHOP?

It would be the classic shtick where the evil twin loses his identifying mark and the hero is forced to choose.

[Scanker19]

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40738

I tried to bring that up in June and got dumped on for it.

I was just looking for that thread too. We (gun owners) would like to think that we are responsible and can make good decisions. The fact of the matter is that there is no IQ or education or mental function test (other than not being crazy) to posses a CCW. We's also like to think that LEOs and military are smart and can make good judgements as well, but if you think there are not stupid cops or soldiers then you have not been either. Cause the ASVAB isn't hard nor is a two year degree hard to obtain.

[cofi]

ok today i finally got a chance to try a 70 yard shot with my carry weapon(glock 30sf) and my carry loadout (24 rounds) against a man size steel target......
8 rounds in the chest
2 bounced up into legs off the ground
14 misses...........
thats 14 people that coulda been shot since that guys backstop was the restaurant......

that was me shooting satnding still with a target that was standing still not shooting at me i shoot way more then the average ccw holder since i do have a range in my backyard

[cstone]

that was me shooting satnding still with a target that was standing still not shooting at me i shoot way more then the average ccw holder since i do have a range in my backyard

You have a range in your backyard? I am jealous. [Tooth]

[sometimesright]

I don't post much and I'm coming a little late to the party on this thread but I have been following the discussion with with interest and thought I would just toss out an opinion since it seems to be a difficult question, to be sure. I agree with the OP's general premise that training is extremely important, especially if someone chooses to CCW. That decision comes with an incredible amount of responsibility and there may come a day that one will find oneself in a position in which they have no desire to be. That being said (importance of training) it is my humble opinion that I have to know my limitations. Trying to operate outside those limitations may have disastrous consequences for me and others. I guess all I'm saying here (let me again stress I am speaking only for me) is that training is important and Heaven Forbid I am ever put in a situation such as the one being discussed here; but if I am, I need to assess all possible information before acting (including my own limitations) and do whatever I can, when I can, within my ability. If I haven't trained enough to successfully handle that situation, that is something with which I'll have to live for the rest of my life and and is something which I sincerely hope to never experience.

[Atrain1]

I don't post much and I'm coming a little late to the party on this thread but I have been following the discussion with with interest and thought I would just toss out an opinion since it seems to be a difficult question, to be sure. I agree with the OP's general premise that training is extremely important, especially if someone chooses to CCW. That decision comes with an incredible amount of responsibility and there may come a day that one will find oneself in a position in which they have no desire to be. That being said (importance of training) it is my humble opinion that I have to know my limitations. Trying to operate outside those limitations may have disastrous consequences for me and others. I guess all I'm saying here (let me again stress I am speaking only for me) is that training is important and Heaven Forbid I am ever put in a situation such as the one being discussed here; but if I am, I need to assess all possible information before acting (including my own limitations) and do whatever I can, when I can, within my ability. If I haven't trained enough to successfully handle that situation, that is something with which I'll have to live for the rest of my life and and is something which I sincerely hope to never experience. I am with you I think training is very important and I hope I am never put in a situation were I have to take another mans life.

[Byte Stryke]

I am with you I think training is very important and I hope I am never put in a situation were I have to take another mans life

and I prepare for it everyday

[Atrain1]

and I prepare for it everyday You should when you strap that Iron to your hip. I just would not want to live with that on my conscience even if I had no choice.

[mcantar18c]

ok today i finally got a chance to try a 70 yard shot with my carry weapon(glock 30sf) and my carry loadout (24 rounds) against a man size steel target......
8 rounds in the chest
2 bounced up into legs off the ground
14 misses...........
thats 14 people that coulda been shot since that guys backstop was the restaurant......

that was me shooting satnding still with a target that was standing still not shooting at me i shoot way more then the average ccw holder since i do have a range in my backyard
And if you shot more at long ranges, you'd be better at it. That's the entire... and only... purpose of this thread. Not shooting at long range, but identifying where you need work and then working on it.


That being said (importance of training) it is my humble opinion that I have to know my limitations. Trying to operate outside those limitations may have disastrous consequences for me and others.
The goal is not to simply know your limitations, but to recognize those limitations so that you can improve them. Discover the areas you might be lacking in and then practice those skills until you become good at them.

The point of this thread was pretty much entirely missed... oh well.

[sometimesright]

I'm not sure your entire point was missed, at least on my part. I'd like to take a brief moment to clarify what may have been misinterpreted by the sentence selected from the context of the entire post. It was not my intent to imply my only goal is to identify my limitations (again, I speak only for me). Training is important and I tend to think that knowing my own personal limitations is part and parcel of training in which I engage.

To me, training is also taking feedback about my performance and making adjustments. Once those limitations are identified, I should modify what I do to address those concerns. Essentially I was merely commenting that there may be situations in which I personally may not yet be at the level I could, which does not mean I stop trying to reach my desired level; but if placed in a situation wherein I could not be as successful as I would like, it is something with which I would have to cope.

Hopefully that clarified my random thoughts. Either way, your post served a purpose in that it generated much thought and discussion. Regardless of whether or not members totally agree with another's position, these types of discussion are valuable because they encourage a degree of self-reflection and evaluation. I appreciate the fact you started the ball rolling.


And if you shot more at long ranges, you'd be better at it. That's the entire... and only... purpose of this thread. Not shooting at long range, but identifying where you need work and then working on it.


The goal is not to simply know your limitations, but to recognize those limitations so that you can improve them. Discover the areas you might be lacking in and then practice those skills until you become good at them.

The point of this thread was pretty much entirely missed... oh well.

[mcantar18c]

By no means am I trying to say we should act outside of our capabilities... I'm saying that the excuse "Its not something I've trained for, I don't know if I can do it" should never be something that comes out of your mouth as a man that carries a weapon. If you choose not to act in a situation, let it be because you don't WANT to, not because you aren't sure of yourself.

[mcantar18c]

And since we've been talking mostly about the IHOP incident, here's a good article about it by a guy that runs a combatives school...

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/09/active-shooter-carson-city-ihop.html

[cstone]

And since we've been talking mostly about the IHOP incident, here's a good article about it by a guy that runs a combatives school...

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/09/active-shooter-carson-city-ihop.html

So you will be at Pawnee on Saturday morning to shoot 65 yards with us?

[mcantar18c]

So you will be at Pawnee on Saturday morning to shoot 65 yards with us?

When was this set up?
I asked if we had a set date in the Shooting Challenge (or whatever it was called) thread and got no response.
Either way, I can't make it. As I said in that thread I need to know about things a week and a half in advance to request off work, and in any case I will be in Cortez this weekend shooting things with these guys...
http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/sep24-2011-defensive-pistol-skills-cortez-co.aspx

[Great-Kazoo]

And since we've been talking mostly about the IHOP incident, here's a good article about it by a guy that runs a combatives school...

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/09/active-shooter-carson-city-ihop.html

And how many john doe ccw holders actually go past doing as little as possible to obtain their ccw?
I am in favor and advocate something other than sitting on your ass for 2-3 hours to get a CCW. Yet i read time and time again here and other gun boards. ITS A RIGHT WE SHOULD BE ISSUED A CCW AND NOT HAVE TO TAKE ANY CLASS!!!
So many folks choose the path of least resistance to get what they want and will do nothing to hone their skills after getting that coveted permit.
I agree TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN, you will never get enough trigger time and (as i agree with you) confidence until you do.
With that being said unless i was there , not armchair qb'ing, i cannot in clear conscience say i would have taken the shot.

[mcantar18c]

And how many john doe ccw holders actually go past doing as little as possible to obtain their ccw?
I am in favor and advocate something other than sitting on your ass for 2-3 hours to get a CCW. Yet i read time and time again here and other gun boards. ITS A RIGHT WE SHOULD BE ISSUED A CCW AND NOT HAVE TO TAKE ANY CLASS!!!
So many folks choose the path of least resistance to get what they want and will do nothing to hone their skills after getting that coveted permit.
I agree TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN, you will never get enough trigger time and (as i agree with you) confidence until you do.
With that being said unless i was there , not armchair qb'ing, i cannot in clear conscience say i would have taken the shot.

On one hand, we as both citizens and free men have a God given and Constitutionally protected right to bear arms.
On the other hand, walking around with a weapon and no serious training on how to use it is just plain stupid.
Your average CCW holder is nothing more than a sheep in wolf's clothing... if they want to take the class, get the permit, and arm themselves, they have the legal right to do so, and that is something I won't argue. However, I for one will hold them morally accountable if they are in a position to help their fellow man and can't because they are too incompetent to do so.

On taking the shot... well, we've all made our differing opinions about this known. You know where I stand, I know where you stand.
[Beer]

[cstone]

When was this set up?
I asked if we had a set date in the Shooting Challenge (or whatever it was called) thread and got no response.
Either way, I can't make it. As I said in that thread I need to know about things a week and a half in advance to request off work, and in any case I will be in Cortez this weekend shooting things with these guys...
http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/sep24-2011-defensive-pistol-skills-cortez-co.aspx

Here is the link:

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46277&referrerid=3409

It was also posted in the Pistol Challenge and Funny Story threads.

Maybe we will shoot it again in the future.

I read the Suarez article you linked. The point I took from his piece is that we all have an obligation to do something. What you would do or I would do, would not necessarily be the same thing that he would do. We all make choices in any given circumstance. The same can be said of the training in which we participate. Time, and resources are not unlimited for anyone. We all choose to prioritize our training time in ways we see fit. Personally, I do not spend much time practicing low probability scenarios. Based on my understanding of real world shootings and previous training I have received, I spend much more of my time working on skills which I believe will benefit me in higher probability scenarios, both in likelihood of occurring and chances of me succeeding. Obviously you are free to pursue your own training for whatever purposes you see fit.

Its all good.

Oh, and for the record, I don't believe there is a direct, provable relationship between good on the range with good on the street. Some of the best have bad days and bad guys with no training sometimes get lucky. That isn't an excuse to not train, but it is a reminder that even the best training is not a guaranty of success. Murphy's Law will not be defied.

I will try to post up some general results in the Swagler's Challenge thread this weekend. I'm pretty certain that regardless of the results, we will have a good time shooting. [Coffee]

[mcantar18c]

I didn't even see that thread... I've been following the one that was posted in GD (I think it was Graves that posted it). Must have missed the date. I'll have to wait till next time, definitely wish I could be there.

Of course all of the training time in the world can't guarantee you'll succeed on the street... everybody has bad days, no argument there. But quality (and continual) training will without a doubt raise your chances exponentially.

Definitely post the results of the shoot.
Mindset is everything... replace "This is difficult, I don't know if I can do it" with "Other people can do it, so I must be able to too," and you might be surprised at how well you perform.

[cstone]

Mindset is everything... replace "This is difficult, I don't know if I can do it" with "Other people can do it, so I must be able to too," and you might be surprised at how well you perform.

[ROFL1]The slogans Aim High, The Few The Proud, The Marines, Army of One, Be All You Can Be, The Power of Positive Thinking, etc... just bouncing around in my head. Reminds me of a very young man I once knew when he was sitting in the Army Recruiter's Office oh so many years ago [ROFL1]

At this point in my life I live by the slogan; I'd rather be lucky than good.

Be safe citizen [Coffee]

[Ronin13]

[ROFL1]The slogans Aim High, The Few The Proud, The Marines, Army of One, Be All You Can Be, The Power of Positive Thinking, etc... just bouncing around in my head. Reminds me of a very young man I once knew when he was sitting in the Army Recruiter's Office oh so many years ago [ROFL1]

At this point in my life I live by the slogan; I'd rather be lucky than good.

Be safe citizen [Coffee]

My friend made me a picture on Photo shop with a Multi cam background and a funny picture asking "How strong is army strong? How sham is SHAMtastic?"

[Bailey Guns]

I read the Gabe Suarez piece. Frankly, I think he's full of shit and his reasoning and conclusions are flawed.

Sounds more like an ad for Joe Citizen to get training and a pitch for his custom Glock slides with red dots than serious reflection.

[Great-Kazoo]

I read the Gabe Suarez piece. Frankly, I think he's full of shit and his reasoning and conclusions are flawed.

Sounds more like an ad for Joe Citizen to get training and a pitch for his custom Glock slides with red dots than serious reflection.

you mean someone would actually have a motive other than training for their business, like pitching their products??
Dude you're harshing my mellow.

[Bailey Guns]

I don't have a problem with pitching your product. But why try to disguise it in an article on a mass shooting? Just be honest. Oh, wait...were talking about Gabe Suarez:


Former Officer Pleads Guilty to Fraud Charges

By Teresa Rochester

Sept. 27 -- A former Santa Monica police officer has pleaded guilty to Workers Compensation fraud, money laundering and grand theft and will begin serving a year-long jail sentence for the crimes next week.

Gabriel Saurez, a decorated 12-year veteran of the SMPD, will report to Los Angeles County Jail to begin serving his sentence on Monday as part of a plea agreement reached last week in Los Angeles County Criminal Court. Saurez, who recently resigned from the force, also was sentenced to five years probation.

Saurez, his wife Cheryl Saurez and Officer Jason Comer pleaded not guilty in April to charges of conspiracy, Workers Compensation fraud and grand theft. Saurez also faced two additional fraud charges.

Like her husband, Cheryl Saurez agreed to plea guilty during last Friday's hearing. She was ordered to serve one day in jail and also was sentenced to five years probation.

Comer's charges were dropped in June, and he remains on paid leave pending the conclusion of an administrative investigation, according to Police Chief James T. Butts Jr.

As part of the agreement, the charges of conspiracy against the Suarezes were dismissed, as were the two additional counts of Workers Compensation filed against Gabriel Saurez, said DA spokesperson Sandi Gibbons.

The Saurezes paid a $100 fine and $112, 250.01 in restitution on Friday, according to Deputy Dist. Atty. Ellen St. John.

Chief Butts said Saurez's plea was a testament to the "hard work, time and effort that the risk management and our criminal division officers have put into this case.

"The good thing is the City of Santa Monica has received full restitution for all wages that were paid in this fraudulent claim," Butts said. "The jail sentence that was imposed by the judge sent a strong message that this type of misconduct will not be tolerated by the City of Santa Monica,"

Gabriel Suarez allegedly worked as a gun tactics trainer while receiving Workers Compensation for a slip and fall accident in the SMPD's locker room in 1999. Cheryl Suarez allegedly received payments for work done by her husband through a company she never worked for. The dismissed charges against Comer were based on allegations that he received and disbursed money for Saurez.

The Saurez case stemmed from a long-term investigation of Workers Compensation fraud within the police department launched late last year by the department, the District Attorneys Office and the State Department of Insurance.

The investigation also has resulted in charges filed against Officer Richard Robert Brulato, who pleaded not guilty in June to two counts of Workers Compensation Fraud.

Butts said the investigation is "definitely ongoing.

"We have other cases we are actively looking at and investigating. Fortunately at this point those cases are few," said Butts adding that they would be vigorously pursued.

Copyright ©1999, 2000, 2001 surfsantamonica.com. All Rights Reserved.
I don't have a hard-on for Gabe or anything, I just don't like his style.

[mcantar18c]

I read the Gabe Suarez piece. Frankly, I think he's full of shit and his reasoning and conclusions are flawed.

Sounds more like an ad for Joe Citizen to get training and a pitch for his custom Glock slides with red dots than serious reflection.
TSD is not the only company that makes aftermarket slides, nor are they the first to put a red dot on a handgun. In the article he mentioned how effective that setup can be, which is absolutely true. He didn't say "my red dot guns are better than anyone else's and you need to buy it."
It'd be the equivalent of Magpul writing a similar article and saying something about how useful BUIS's are, or EOTech making a reference to cowitnessing.


I don't have a problem with pitching your product. But why try to disguise it in an article on a mass shooting? Just be honest. Oh, wait...were talking about Gabe Suarez:

[INDENT] Former Officer Pleads Guilty to Fraud Charges

By Teresa Rochester
I seriously doubt that's the only side to that story, especially considering the sentences... $100 fine sounds pretty low considering. I don't know the backstory, but I do know that there was some kind of personal issues going on in that dept. at the time.

[mcantar18c]

Now, on the subject of training... someone mentioned this (a Systema instructor) and I think it might be worth trying.
Do an intense workout before training, and then when you train, focus on your form... your draw, mag changes, etc. The idea is that your body, being sore and all, will tend to do things in the most efficient motions it can, and the training will make those efficient motions come natural to you.

[Byte Stryke]

not defending or damming anyone here...
just wondering if we know for a fact what type/cal the BBQ CCW guy was carrying.

not sure if it was posted and I missed it or if its just been assumed.

[mcantar18c]

I've searched around and couldn't find anything on it.

[Byte Stryke]

anyone else?

[sneakerd]

Hey Byte- you're working for a living. Time to sign off, hang out with the wife and kiss some ass. [BooHoo]

[cstone]

Not in any of the news stories I've read.

I think I know where you are going with the question, but I'd rather not assume. Why do you ask?

I would think the type of ammunition he had loaded would be as important if not possibly more important than the caliber. This couldn't possibly turn into a "his gun was poop" thread would it? [ROFL1]

[Atrain1]

not defending or damming anyone here...
just wondering if we know for a fact what type/cal the BBQ CCW guy was carrying.

not sure if it was posted and I missed it or if its just been assumed. I was wondering that myself. And I would also would like to know about the AK. Was it SA or FA? did it belong to the guy using it legally or was it stolen?

[mcantar18c]

I was wondering that myself. And I would also would like to know about the AK. Was it SA or FA? did it belong to the guy using it legally or was it stolen?
Don't know the answers, but I'd say its a safe bet that it's a semi-auto and he stole it.
If it was a select-fire, he there would likely be a much higher body count... why select targets when you can mow them all down?
If he legally owned it, the lefties would all be screaming more than they normally do about how all of us gun nuts are lunatics and blah blah blah.
I could be wrong though.

Whatever they BBQ guy was carrying, there's no excuse to not have a carry piece capable of getting the job done.

[Irving]

Now, on the subject of training... someone mentioned this (a Systema instructor) and I think it might be worth trying.
Do an intense workout before training, and then when you train, focus on your form... your draw, mag changes, etc. The idea is that your body, being sore and all, will tend to do things in the most efficient motions it can, and the training will make those efficient motions come natural to you.

I'd say don't eat for 24 hours. I don't know about you guys, but sometimes, when I don't eat for even 8 hours, I start getting pretty shaky and can't focus worth a damn.

[Mick-Boy]

If it was a select-fire, he there would likely be a much higher body count... why select targets when you can mow them all down?


Is this a joke?



Whatever they BBQ guy was carrying, there's no excuse to not have a carry piece capable of getting the job done.

Getting what job done? I carry a glock19 with an x300. There are a number of jobs that it's not capable of getting done.

No one has a crystal ball. People don't get to schedule gun fights in the civilian world or predetermine what the circumstances surrounding the event might be.

[Atrain1]

Don't know the answers, but I'd say its a safe bet that it's a semi-auto and he stole it.
If it was a select-fire, he there would likely be a much higher body count... why select targets when you can mow them all down?
If he legally owned it, the lefties would all be screaming more than they normally do about how all of us gun nuts are lunatics and blah blah blah.
I could be wrong though.

Whatever they BBQ guy was carrying, there's no excuse to not have a carry piece capable of getting the job done. That is exactly why I wanted to know about it being his legally, I wanted to see how long it was before everyone started talking about the evil Assault Rifle. And for the FA question I would wonder as to why he did not kill more people, and if he was dropped by someone with a CCG what would be the likely hood of a few rounds getting squeezed out of the AK. I went out to Pawnee and shot @ a 3 liter bottle about 45 to 50 yards out with one of my carry guns 38 special with 2 inch barrel, also had the one I built with a 4 inch barrel (wasted alot of ammo with that one) any way I hit it maybe 10 times out of 100 rounds half of those were wasted in my very inaccurate 4 inch 38. I would not take that shot with my P3AT butt I still carry it. I dont carry it to make long range shots I carry it to protect me and my family when we are out. I would have to be forced into pulling it. the last altercation I got into I had some Gang members start some crap with me and a friend of mine over their kids throwing rocks at his custom painted Motorcycle. my buddy whent over to talk to the parents and it got way out of hand, there was 3 of them and 1 of my friend, so I walked over had my 1911 in a IWB holster and one of the guys had a beer bottle full he thought he was going to hit me with, the other had a baseball bat. To make a long story short I never pulled my gun so no one got shot, I used my head and got everyone to calm down and talk about what was going on. now I could have very well pulled my gun and ended it a different way being that I was trying to protect a friend, but I did not feel the need to. Now most of the time you do not get a chance to talk your way out of things, but my point is you dont pull unless you absolutely have to.

[Byte Stryke]

Is this a joke?



Getting what job done? I carry a glock19 with an x300. There are a number of jobs that it's not capable of getting done.

No one has a crystal ball. People don't get to schedule gun fights in the civilian world or predetermine what the circumstances surrounding the event might be.


and I know plenty of people that carry .25 .32.and .380 that would not be optimal for such a fight.
these calibers are geared more towards close range defensive.
as I Said, I'm not trying to "Go Anywhere" with it.

Just a simple question

[mcantar18c]

Is this a joke?



Getting what job done? I carry a glock19 with an x300. There are a number of jobs that it's not capable of getting done.

No one has a crystal ball. People don't get to schedule gun fights in the civilian world or predetermine what the circumstances surrounding the event might be.

The guy in the IHOP shooting wasn't targeting anyone specifically, he was going for body count (as is the norm for these "active shooter" scenarios). If he had a select fire weapon, why wouldn't he just spray at the folks in IHOP? As has been pointed out by other folks here, these guys get most of their firearms experience from video games, its not like he's going to put a short burst into target A and then repeat with target B when he can go full auto.
So no, I wasn't joking.

Get the job done of stopping the threat. IMO if a carry gun isn't capable of effectively stopping a threat behind cover (shooting through a car door and then into the attacker, for example), then it isn't suitable to carry. No, a 9mm isn't too small for this... a .25ACP is.

[Irving]

Well....nevermind.

[Great-Kazoo]

Now, on the subject of training... someone mentioned this (a Systema instructor) and I think it might be worth trying.
Do an intense workout before training, and then when you train, focus on your form... your draw, mag changes, etc. The idea is that your body, being sore and all, will tend to do things in the most efficient motions it can, and the training will make those efficient motions come natural to you.

Where does that leave those of us with disabilities who are unable to do much of anything physically? Do you go through this workout before work, walking out the door, getting out of you car ? Regarding the focus aspect tunnel vision over rides what ever you have "trained" for.

I'm not practicing to be a UFC fighter, nor is almost anyone i have taught CCW to one either. The majority of CCW folks are average citizens who have gone to the next step for personal defense. I mentioned before, doing 1 gun class does not you a master make, practice, practice, practice, then do it again.
We have touched on the CCW gun said person may have been carrying. Some folks feel a .22lr is better than nothing and what they can afford at the moment. Does that make them weak or less likely to stop a threat, not at all. With confidence anyone can stop a threat, the level they are willing to go at that time is up to them.
Screw bravado, macho posturing, saying "I would have done this", we were not there nor was GS. I've seen some of the toughest MF&#37;^&*ers piss their pants when the chips were down, while miss goodie 2 shoes did what was necessary to stop the threat.

Steel Shoot saturday morning, for those that can make it, will cull the herd.
Out of curiosity exactly how old are you?

[Atrain1]

The AK was full auto, I just looked into it for a bit and found out it was. So now are you going to pull your CCG on a maniac with a full auto AK47, I dont think so. Even if I had this in a shoulder rig I would still have to be there to know what I would have done.http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l628/atrain18/020-2.jpg

[cstone]

Byte, I have looked pretty hard for any information on the make and model on either weapon and come up empty. It will come out eventually. There are several good lists found on the internet listing weapons used in noteworthy killings throughout history.

Just like all of the endless discussions regarding caliber, I figured this would go toward another unending discussion about what would be the best defensive handgun to deal with this type of situation.

After the fact, it doesn't matter. One guy chose an AK and the other guy had a pistol. One guy was hell bent on killing people and the other guy made his decisions based on what he thought best at the time. If the guy who was hell bent on killing people had been armed with a pistol and Swagler had an AK, there still are no guarantees that the outcome would have been any different. You have what you bring.

The seemingly endless hindsight debates (and this isn't specific to this board, but the numerous blogs both anti-gun and pro-gun who use these tragedies to support their cause) are full of people who think they will do things better if or when they are ever confronted with one of these situations. We can train, and that helps. We can mentally prepare, and that helps. We can research and equip ourselves to the best of our individual abilities. In the end, no one knows what they will do until that time comes. The people I know who have been through this, live with their decisions and none of them are the same person they were before. Some live better with their decisions than others. I hope for the people on this board who have been there, they find peace with their decisions. For those that have not yet been there, I hope you can reserve judgment until you have stood in another person's shoes and seen it from that perspective.

Be safe citizens. [Beer]

[cstone]

The AK was full auto, I just looked into it for a bit and found out it was. So now are you going to pull your CCG on a maniac with a full auto AK47, I dont think so. Even if I had this in a shoulder rig I would still have to be there to know what I would have done.[

Could you provide the source or link for that information? Thank you.

[Atrain1]

Could you provide the source or link for that information? Thank you. I just googled the ak47 used in the IHOP shooting and came across a forum it was on. And every one kept saying it was automatic gunfire they heard and the sheriff also said it was automatic.

[Mick-Boy]

The guy in the IHOP shooting wasn't targeting anyone specifically, he was going for body count (as is the norm for these "active shooter" scenarios). If he had a select fire weapon, why wouldn't he just spray at the folks in IHOP? As has been pointed out by other folks here, these guys get most of their firearms experience from video games, its not like he's going to put a short burst into target A and then repeat with target B when he can go full auto.
So no, I wasn't joking.

A full auto weapon isn't a fire hose and there's always more air than meat. Someone who "just sprays at folks" is much more likely to have a lower body count than a higher.




Get the job done of stopping the threat. IMO if a carry gun isn't capable of effectively stopping a threat behind cover (shooting through a car door and then into the attacker, for example), then it isn't suitable to carry. No, a 9mm isn't too small for this... a .25ACP is.

We went through this in the 9mm vs. 45 thread but I'll say it again here. Pistols suck as fight stoppers. Nothing that is man portable can stop a threat guaranteed.

Shooting a threat behind cover is a job for a rifle and a good barrier blind projectile.

For that matter, shooting a threat at 65M is a job for a rifle too.

Armchair quarterbacking a fight is gay.

[sometimesright]

Well put, cstone.

[mcantar18c]

I just googled the ak47 used in the IHOP shooting and came across a forum it was on. And every one kept saying it was automatic gunfire they heard and the sheriff also said it was automatic.

I've been asked if I was shooting a full auto before at the range. To the sheep (including the sheep with guns), anything that fires faster than a bolt action sounds like full auto.

[mcantar18c]

A full auto weapon isn't a fire hose and there's always more air than meat. Someone who "just sprays at folks" is much more likely to have a lower body count than a higher.
As a rule of thumb, sure. But in a densely packed restaurant where most of the people are stationary and fairly close to each other?


We went through this in the 9mm vs. 45 thread but I'll say it again here. Pistols suck as fight stoppers. Nothing that is man portable can stop a threat guaranteed.

Shooting a threat behind cover is a job for a rifle and a good barrier blind projectile.

For that matter, shooting a threat at 65M is a job for a rifle too.

Armchair quarterbacking a fight is gay.
I'm pretty sure you were one of the only ones that agreed with me in that thread. All common handgun calibers suck, period.
That said, there may be times where you need to shoot through cover (wood, drywall, thin sheet metal, etc.) to stop the threat... and you can easily find multiple cases where shooting through cover is what saved the victims life. A round powerful enough to do that is enough to do the job at 65m (if you do your part).
A .25ACP fired out of a pocket pistol is not one of those rounds.

[brokenscout]

Armchair quarterbacking a fight is gay.[/quote]
[Beer]

[cstone]

A knife in the right person's hands is sometimes all the deadly force needed.

If only Chuck Norris had been there! [ROFL1]

Oh, and everyone's gun is poop!

On a serious note, if I happen across some definitive information on make and model for either weapon, I will try to remember to post it on the board along with a source.

[Atrain1]

A knife in the right person's hands is sometimes all the deadly force needed.

If only Chuck Norris had been there! [ROFL1]

Oh, and everyone's gun is poop!

On a serious note, if I happen across some definitive information on make and model for either weapon, I will try to remember to post it on the board along with a source. I will try and find that forum I came across. there was one before that one that said it was a registered Chinese full auto ak47.

[Irving]

Never believe anything the public says.

I thought this guy specifically targeted members of the National Guard. Sounds like picking and choosing to me.

What kind of DEFENSIVE situation will you be shooting at someone through cover again?

[cstone]

I will try and find that forum I came across. there was one before that one that said it was a registered Chinese full auto ak47.

Everything I've read in the return on the warrants served on the minivan, at his brother's house and the house he lived in with his parents has been vague as to details on weapons, shotgun, bb gun, AK47 magazines. The only semi-detailed information I saw was a 9mm Glock pistol and ammunition.

This is one of the better articles I've found, and the Nevada Appeal has been covering the story as the Sheriff's Department has released information:

http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20110908/NEWS/110909788/1007&parentprofile=1058

There is also a link to some surveillance video from the Local's BBQ restaurant on the Nevada Appeal's web site.

[mcantar18c]

Armchair quarterbacking a fight is gay.
[Beer]
So we can't criticize someone's actions unless we were right there next to them?
Right, got it.


Never believe anything the public says.
Amen.


I thought this guy specifically targeted members of the National Guard. Sounds like picking and choosing to me.
He also shot (and I believe killed) an older woman on a motorcycle out front. Doesn't really seem like a threat... which means targets of opportunity/body count.
As for the Guard boys, I'd imagine they either just happened to be at the closest table, or maybe they stood out the most because they were in uniform, or both, or something... but from what I can tell I don't think they were purposely targeted.


What kind of DEFENSIVE situation will you be shooting at someone through cover again?
There was a shooting in... Ohio?... just a couple months ago where a CCWer shot one of two thugs in the leg that were trying to pull him out of his car. Had he not had the door open, he would have been shooting through it.

I recently read about a case where a police officer was being shot at by a man using a door frame as cover... cop shot through the wall and dropped him.

Woman in Oklahoma a few weeks ago shot through her patio door at an armed man trying to break in while on the phone with a 911 operator.


Also, regarding the "DEFENSIVE situation"... you may not be the one that initiates the attack (as a CCWer, you should never be), but you should always bring the fight to them. Become the predator, make them the prey.
Perfect example of this is a well known incident (in the law enforcement community)... don't remember the officer's name, believe it was in LA. She got out of her car, in her driveway at her house, and was shot in the chest with a .357mag by some gangbanger who had followed her home. Bullet penetrated her heart and blew a tennis ball sized hole in her back. She got up and chased and gunned the guy down, called 911, and after surgery she survived and is still a cop in LA.

[Irving]

I saw the video of the Ohio one. They weren't trying to pull him out.

Cop one doesn't count. A non-cop would just disengage.

Lady shot early.

If there is room for cover, seems like 9 times out of 10, there is room to disengage.

[mcantar18c]

Personal account of the Ohio guy on his gun forum said they were trying to pull him out which prompted him to get his gun out of the glove box (did lots of things wrong there, but that's another discussion).

Lady shot early? Armed man trying to break in. Identify the threat and engage... why wait?

Cop story doesn't count. OK, lets make it a hypothetical situation. Make it your own home, you hear someone downstairs and grab that nightstand gun of yours. He sees you coming down the stairs and shoots, taking cover behind a door frame.
Disengage? I don't think so.

If there's room for cover, 9 times out of 10 there's room to disengage. You're probably right about that. But if you've already engaged, you probably had a damn good reason to... if you didn't why were you shooting in the first place?

[MrPrena]

link to those video would be great.

[mcantar18c]

For the shooting in Ohio?
Don't have a link for a video, I'm sure some google magic can help ya there.
I do have the link to the thread the guy posted on his local gun forum about it...
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53502

Last post on the first page (bold by me):

the gun was a glock model 36. carrying with one in the chamber probably saved my life because i was holding myself in the car with my left hand as they were trying to pull me out of the car no way i could have racked the slide.

[MrPrena]

Thanks for the link.
I goto OH often to visit my in-laws (Cinn, Dayton).
Glad that I got UT CCW that has recp w/ OH.

[Great-Kazoo]

[QUOTE=mcantar18c;426634
Also, regarding the "DEFENSIVE situation"... you may not be the one that initiates the attack (as a CCWer, you should never be), but you should always bring the fight to them. Become the predator, make them the prey..[/QUOTE]

WHAT :(
As a CCW holder, you only use deadly force, if you are in defense of a person CRS 18-1-704,
18-1-705 deals with defense of premises
You do not "bring the fight to them" you either engage until the threat is stopped (Fight) or get the hell out of there (Flight)
That quote alone, if you ever actually had to use deadly force just gave the prosecuting attorney enough ammo to get you an easy 3-5

You may be able to bring the fight to them under 18-1-707: use of physical force in making an arrest, or in preventing an escape.
This CRS pertains primarily to LE until you get the the subsections where an LE ask for assistance

Stop the Threat or get the hell out of there. Anything else and you facing a grand jury at the least.
You must be in your teens or 20's reading some of the shit you either believe in or type hyping your macho status. If you're older than that keep you gun at home and take up a job as a school crossing guard, part time.
You ideologue is going to get anyone who listen's to you killed, sooner or later.

Although i think (key word) after you attend Gabe's class you might be one step future away from reality, OR hopefully, come back to the real world.
i would also suggest you have a real good attorney on retainer.

When i was younger i thought the same way, a lot of $K spent here and there kept me from becoming a long time resident of the gray bar hotel. Going from self defense to ADW happens that quickly, as you never know what the witness' "thought" they saw or say after some leading.

[Mick-Boy]

As a rule of thumb, sure. But in a densely packed restaurant where most of the people are stationary and fairly close to each other?


Do you know it was densely packed? Do you know that the patrons were close together?

I'll say it again, there's always more air than meat. Use of a full auto selector in a fight is for belt fed weapons or amateurs.

This theory you seem to have about full auto highlights your lack of real experience.



I'm pretty sure you were one of the only ones that agreed with me in that thread. All common handgun calibers suck, period.
That said, there may be times where you need to shoot through cover (wood, drywall, thin sheet metal, etc.) to stop the threat... and you can easily find multiple cases where shooting through cover is what saved the victims life. A round powerful enough to do that is enough to do the job at 65m (if you do your part).
A .25ACP fired out of a pocket pistol is not one of those rounds.Whether we agreed there or not, in this thread you've criticized both the nutcase with the AK and the small business owner because you seem to think you would have done it better if you were in their shoes.... Here's the rub. You weren't. So you really don't know you just think (or fantasize).

You think you'd take a high percentage shot at 65yds with your carry pistol? Well cool. Rock on with your bad self. Sharp shooting a man because he didn't? Very, very weak.

Your posts in this thread speak volumes about your ignorance and hubris. That's a very dangerous combination in the real world.

Have a great day.

[mcantar18c]

Do you know it was densely packed? Do you know that the patrons were close together?

I'll say it again, there's always more air than meat. Use of a full auto selector in a fight is for belt fed weapons or amateurs.

This theory you seem to have about full auto highlights your lack of real experience.
You misunderstood me. I said that the shooter likely got most of his firearms experience from video games, and that had he had a weapon capable of full auto your average idiot would likely just spray with it.
Not saying that's the "proper" way to do it, just that somebody with no training or experience isn't likely to have that control.

I don't know it was densely packed, but then again...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/07/us/07shooting.html

The gunman, identified by the police as Eduardo Sencion, 32, began his five-minute shooting rampage around 9 a.m. as people flocked to the restaurant for the breakfast rush.
Probably a safe bet.


Whether we agreed there or not, in this thread you've criticized both the nutcase with the AK and the small business owner because you seem to think you would have done it better if you were in their shoes.... Here's the rub. You weren't. So you really don't know you just think (or fantasize).

You think you'd take a high percentage shot at 65yds with your carry pistol? Well cool. Rock on with your bad self. Sharp shooting a man because he didn't? Very, very weak.

Your posts in this thread speak volumes about your ignorance and hubris. That's a very dangerous combination in the real world.

Have a great day.
I'm not criticizing the BBW guy for not taking a shot with his carry gun at 65 yards. I'm criticizing him for not doing anything whatsoever to stop the shooter, especially because (according to him) that decision was made completely based on a lack of confidence in his capabilities.

[Mick-Boy]

I don't think I did misunderstand you. What you said was


If it was a select-fire, he there would likely be a much higher body count... why select targets when you can mow them all down?Confidence in your abilities is great, but it's amazing how many guys lose that confidence after things get loud in their little corner of the grid square.

Maybe you should keep your criticism to yourself until you've been in a few similarly unpleasant situations... elbows to the trachea aside of course. BBQ guy came through alive. So if that was his primary objective (and his reason for having a CCW) than he did just fine. If you think you want to be a superhero with yours, go for it. But don't sharp shoot another man because he doesn't see it that way.

What unit did you say you were with again?

[Great-Kazoo]

I don't think I did misunderstand you. What you said was

Confidence in your abilities is great, but it's amazing how many guys lose that confidence after things get loud in their little corner of the grid square.

Maybe you should keep your criticism to yourself until you've been in a few similarly unpleasant situations... elbows to the trachea aside of course. BBQ guy came through alive. So if that was his primary objective (and his reason for having a CCW) than he did just fine. If you think you want to be a superhero with yours, go for it. But don't sharp shoot another man because he doesn't see it that way.

What unit did you say you were with again?

I'm still waiting for him to say how old he is, what real life hands on experience he has and so on. Balls to the wall doesn't do shit over the long run in civilian life.


[I'm not criticizing the BBW guy for not taking a shot with his carry gun at 65 yards. I'm criticizing him for not doing anything whatsoever to stop the shooter, especially because (according to him) that decision was made completely based on a lack of confidence in his capabilities]

All i have read is your "expert opinion" in numerous post how it should have been done, everyone else's lack of confidence and training blah, blah, blah

I AM BEYOND CALLING BS
What exactly is your pedigree? Whence from doth you speakth.
And one more time exactly how old are you??

[Bailey Guns]

After thinking about this off and on since this thread started, after reading all the back and forth, I'm more convinced than ever that BBQ guy (Swagler) did consider shooting Sencion but decided against it. Most likely, for all the right reasons. Consider the first part of this quote:
"I wish I had shot at him but he was going in the IHOP," said Swagler, who owns Locals BBQ & Grill. "But when he came at me, when somebody is pointing an automatic weapon at you -- you can't believe the firepower, the kind of rounds coming out of that weapon."

From all accounts I've seen Swagler was saying by the time he figured out what was going on, Sencion was entering the IHOP. Swagler made a conscious decision not to shoot because of Sencion's location...not because he was some kind of coward.

Nothing said in this thread up to this point has caused me to reconsider my position that Swagler did the right thing.

Is it the same thing that everyone else would've done? No. Was it a rational decision based on the circumstances? I'd say, yes, given what we know.

I don't fault him in the slightest. He didn't shoot for the same reason a couple of guys didn't shoot the Tucson shooter. I applaud them for keeping their cool at least enough to analyze the situation and make a rational decision.

So many people on this forum talk about how wrong is is that people with minimal or even no formal training can get permits to carry. How "scary" it is to know that those type of people are out in public carrying a gun.

And then something like this happens and a guy makes what I believe is a sound decision and he's just hammered for it. Now, suddenly, these same people that have little training should be making 65 yard shots at moving targets with innocents all over the place.

Sometimes, you just can't win.

[bobbyfairbanks]

Lets see you post your Age Mccanter.
What about all your super skills. Where did you learn them?
I bet you wont post them. Becuase.......your probable still in highschool and play call of duty everyday.[ROFL1]

[jhood001]

Lets see you post your Age Mccanter.


No need. He's 20 years old. Which raises into question a particular story he told where he was CCing.

[palepainter]

[Pop][Pop]

[mcantar18c]

Personal attacks? Seriously?
Pretty low, don't ya think?

I've spent a significant amount of my money, sweat, and occasionally blood on training with firearms, knives, H2H, and everything inbetween.
Practice what you preach... those who don't deserve no respect, and I have no intentions of becoming what I despise the most (a hypocrite).

Now back to your regularly scheduled bitchfest.

[Great-Kazoo]

Personal attacks? Seriously?
Pretty low, don't ya think?

I've spent a significant amount of my money, sweat, and occasionally blood on training with firearms, knives, H2H, and everything inbetween.
Practice what you preach... those who don't deserve no respect, and I have no intentions of becoming what I despise the most (a hypocrite).

Now back to your regularly scheduled bitchfest.

Nothign i posted would be considered a "personal attack"
You have been called out by me in 2-3 post asking what your pedigree is. No answer from you stating age etc.
I called your Bullshit and no reply. That speaks volume to your background and life history. Step up to the plate and answer my inquiry.Hell pm me and i will not make it public if for some reason you are undercover LE.
Your mouth / keyboard wrote a check you cannot cash.

I would ask the mods to lock this 20 something page post as it will (IMHO) deteriorate way off the OT, some of the post by me included.

[mcantar18c]

I would ask the mods to lock this 20 something page post as it will (IMHO) deteriorate way off the OT, some of the post by me included.

This is why I'm not responding to that crap... though I'd say its already gone way off track. If you want to know something about me, you can PM me. This thread is about the importance of training, using TWO examples that showed both sides of the spectrum, with the purpose being to encourage people that carry to get as much training as they can so that they don't end up finding themselves incapable of doing something that they otherwise might have with the proper training.

As for locking it, if a mod would like to that's up to them, but I see no reason to request that.

[Irving]

Mcantar, you should really watch the Ohio video before you keep talking about it.

Here is the only version I can find. They cut out the fight. I saw the original on here.

iz4tOc1GLgo

As to the lady, if the guy is OUTSIDE, then she isn't in danger from him. Just because he's pounding on the door, doesn't mean he is close to getting in.

Now, in the interest of being fair, I've delivered to some places that have a door so thin, that a single kick would take the whole door down. Perhaps she had one of those shower grade doors and it was only seconds before he was through.

[mcantar18c]

Mcantar, you should really watch the Ohio video before you keep talking about it.

Here is the only version I can find. They cut out the fight. I saw the original on here.


As to the lady, if the guy is OUTSIDE, then she isn't in danger from him. Just because he's pounding on the door, doesn't mean he is close to getting in.

Now, in the interest of being fair, I've delivered to some places that have a door so thin, that a single kick would take the whole door down. Perhaps she had one of those shower grade doors and it was only seconds before he was through.
I've seen the video of the Ohio incident. Hard to see what goes on with the roof support in the way, but that quote and link I posted was from the guy involved, and the article I read about it back when it happened had a witness account that also said they were trying to pull him out of the car.

I listened to the recording of the 911 call made by the lady. Armed man outside the glass door, trying to break in, was about to break down the door with a patio chair she had outside when she pulled the trigger. Early on in the conversation the lady says something along the lines of "Ma'am, I don't want to shoot this man, dear God I do not want to shoot him, but I will if I have to." 911 operator responds with "You are within your rights to shoot him if you fear he will get in." Cops were already on the way but of course didn't get there in time.

[Bailey Guns]

A slightly off-topic note:

There is precedence in CO for shooting someone outside the home, prior to them making entry, and having it be ruled a Make My Day shooting.

The Colorado Supreme Court has ruled that a front porch is including in the definition of a "dwelling" and people have a right to defend themselves there just like it was in the home.

In a Weld County case, Hammock was upset over his dog being shot with a pellet gun. He suspected Griffin. Hammock armed himself with a 3' long 2x2 and confronted Griffin at Griffin's home. They argued through the door. At some point Hammock used the piece of wood to break a window in the door and Griffin shot him in the chest with a 12 gauge round. Hammock died. Griffin was arrested for 2nd Murder but released after the investigation. The DA cited the MMD law and brought up the fact the Co Supreme Court had previously ruled a front porch was part of the dwelling.

[cofi]

Mcantar, you should really watch the Ohio video before you keep talking about it.

Here is the only version I can find. They cut out the fight. I saw the original on here.

iz4tOc1GLgo

As to the lady, if the guy is OUTSIDE, then she isn't in danger from him. Just because he's pounding on the door, doesn't mean he is close to getting in.

Now, in the interest of being fair, I've delivered to some places that have a door so thin, that a single kick would take the whole door down. Perhaps she had one of those shower grade doors and it was only seconds before he was through.


in that video i would think that person could have just put the car into drive and get away

[BigMat]

Not to beat a dead horse but I've been out of town-


...Gabe Suarez/Warrior Talk...

Might be worth your watching (http://www.sloppynoodle.com/wp/gabe-suarez-saved-by-the-voice-of-god-cbn-com/) - His own words.

he may know TOO much about active shooters with an AK and is obviously too quick to go to guns.

Note- Firearms instructor, who planned on murdering a lot of trained and armed men (that he was already defrauding, plead guilty to it) with pistols. HE took an AK and planned on winning, consider the tactics of your teacher.


Also, CCW guy was under fire from the shooter, no suprise shot, and the situation is impossible to legally duplicate.

[Atrain1]

A slightly off-topic note:

There is precedence in CO for shooting someone outside the home, prior to them making entry, and having it be ruled a Make My Day shooting.

The Colorado Supreme Court has ruled that a front porch is including in the definition of a "dwelling" and people have a right to defend themselves there just like it was in the home.

In a Weld County case, Hammock was upset over his dog being shot with a pellet gun. He suspected Griffin. Hammock armed himself with a 3' long 2x2 and confronted Griffin at Griffin's home. They argued through the door. At some point Hammock used the piece of wood to break a window in the door and Griffin shot him in the chest with a 12 gauge round. Hammock died. Griffin was arrested for 2nd Murder but released after the investigation. The DA cited the MMD law and brought up the fact the Co Supreme Court had previously ruled a front porch was part of the dwelling. I thought your vehicle was an extension of your home, and that is why you can have a ccg with out a ccw. Judging by what you can see in the video it looks like he could have drove off, but we dont know the circumstances he was under. I think he should have held them at Gun point and called 911, apposed to shooting the guy like he did.

[Irving]

Your vehicle IS an extension of your home, but not concerning the Make My Day law.

[Atrain1]

Your vehicle IS an extension of your home, but not concerning the Make My Day law. So did that guy get off or is it unknown?

[Irving]

Which guy? The one at the gas station? That happened in Ohio I think. He wasn't charged with anything.

To my knowledge, there is no place in the US where you will get a murder charge for self defense. You may get some other offenses like discharging a firearm, or possession of a firearm, but defending yourself is still legal for now.

[Atrain1]

Which guy? The one at the gas station? That happened in Ohio I think. He wasn't charged with anything.

To my knowledge, there is no place in the US where you will get a murder charge for self defense. You may get some other offenses like discharging a firearm, or possession of a firearm, but defending yourself is still legal for now. I just dont see how he got SD dont get me wrong those guys got what they had coming trying to rob someone, but it looked like he killed the guy while he was on the ground.

[Irving]

Two guys were attacking him at once, and he shot one of them in the stomach, then they stopped and he drove away. The video I showed is really crappy, they cut out so much you can't see what happens. I don't know if that guy died though. The friend that didn't get shot, posted a ton of updates on Facebook saying how he was going to kill that guy if his friend died, he never forgets a face, blah blah blah.

[mcantar18c]

New info on IHOP incident.
A guy I know has a friend in the Carson City Sheriff Dept. According to him, there was a CCW holder INSIDE the restaurant at the time of the shooting.
He had his weapon, he wasn't shot. He froze from indecision, according to what he told the deputies.

I can't fathom sitting idle and watching a man walk up and start shooting people around you, knowing there's a gun on your hip.

[Byte Stryke]

so does anyone have like a wooden stake...

silver bullet?


what will it take?



http://www.tvsa.co.za/forum/images/smilies/zombie_run.gif

[spyder]

^^^^[LOL] Unfortunately as a super secret mod, I can't do anything about it...

[DFBrews]

^^^^[LOL] Unfortunately as a super secret mod, I can't do anything about it...


Way to blow the undercover part jeez[Coffee]

[spyder]

Way to blow the undercover part jeez[Coffee]
Someone already let everyone know... Look under my name...

[DFBrews]

Someone already let everyone know... Look under my name...

That's why it is funny!!!!!

[Bailey Guns]

so does anyone have like a wooden stake...

silver bullet?


what will it take?



http://www.tvsa.co.za/forum/images/smilies/zombie_run.gif

I once lived next door to a guy that had an uncle who's girlfriend once dated a guy that had a brother who was a priest.

Will that work?

[Byte Stryke]

I once lived next door to a guy that had an uncle who's girlfriend once dated a guy that had a brother who was a priest.

Will that work?



was the girlfriend hot and did she put out?

[Mick-Boy]

New info on IHOP incident.
A guy I know has a friend in the Carson City Sheriff Dept. According to him, there was a CCW holder INSIDE the restaurant at the time of the shooting.
He had his weapon, he wasn't shot. He froze from indecision, according to what he told the deputies.

I can't fathom sitting idle and watching a man walk up and start shooting people around you, knowing there's a gun on your hip.

I've got a buddy who has a bronze star for killing five men armed with AKs using only his sidearm.

I can't fathom many people being put in that situation and walking out alive. But then everyone is different.

Monday morning quarterbacking a gunfight on the internet is gay.

What unit are you with again?

[Irving]

I think this is great. It will show people that people who carry guns aren't just out looking for a fight. And that if they want to be protected, to carry their own guns because you can't always rely on other people.