non-acog scope suggestions for afghanistan

[josh7328]

I was looking at getting personal optics for use in afghanistan. I will probably get stuck with an m16. I would like to give it a rugged, variable power scope (3-9?) and a bipod. I will be getting in and out of vehicles alot, so durability is paramount. I dont want to break the bank and don't know much about scopes. Any suggestions?

[bobbyfairbanks]

I know you said non ACOG but everything else cost a lot and Acogs are great scopes. Get a Acog. I have been using them for years and have used them in Combat. You are not going to need a Vari power scope on a M16. If you need more magnification for something it will probable be for scanning for targets and or some kind of threat. Since that is the case carry some good Bino's. They do a much better job then a 9 power scope will. As for what type of ACOG I would get the NSN one.

[josh7328]

I know you said non ACOG but everything else cost a lot and Acogs are great scopes. Get a Acog. I have been using them for years and have used them in Combat. You are not going to need a Vari power scope on a M16. If you need more magnification for something it will probable be for scanning for targets and or some kind of threat. Since that is the case carry some good Bino's. They do a much better job then a 9 power scope will. As for what type of ACOG I would get the NSN one.

Thatnks for the input. The thing is my unit puts our acogs on the m4's and I am not paying 800+ for a personal acog. Also dont really like them much. I want a variable power scope because when it comes off the m16, i can still use it as a hunting scope on my 6.8

[DeusExMachina]

ACOGs cost that much because they're durable. They're single power so that they can be durable.

You're not going to find the same durability in a variable power scope that costs less than $800.

[bobbyfairbanks]

Just remember you get what you pay for. A bushnell is going to be crap just like the rest of the cheap optics. I have a Night Force NXS 1-4 x 24 Mil Dot Reticle on one of my AR's. I have groups of a quarter size at 100 yds. It is really good optic.

[CO-Exprs]

http://www.leupold.com/tactical/products/scopes/mark-4-mrt-riflescopes/mark-4-1-5-5x20mm-mrt-m2-illum-reticle/

Both the Special Purpose reticle and the CM-R reticle are highly functional and you can get custom turrets for your intended rifle and load. These scopes are extemely durable, have pretty good glass and have already seen use in the Middle East. 1.5 on the low end is still functional for close work and 5x will give you good magnification out to ballistic limits, even with the extended range of your 20" barrel. As a less professional note, these scopes are very popular in multigun matches because of thier durability, functionality and effectiveness from 5 to 600yds.

[josh7328]

http://www.leupold.com/tactical/products/scopes/mark-4-mrt-riflescopes/mark-4-1-5-5x20mm-mrt-m2-illum-reticle/

Both the Special Purpose reticle and the CM-R reticle are highly functional and you can get custom turrets for your intended rifle and load. These scopes are extemely durable, have pretty good glass and have already seen use in the Middle East. 1.5 on the low end is still functional for close work and 5x will give you good magnification out to ballistic limits, even with the extended range of your 20" barrel. As a less professional note, these scopes are very popular in multigun matches because of thier durability, functionality and effectiveness from 5 to 600yds.

This might be just the ticket. I can't really tell if the turrets lock. If not, then that would be a no-go. I was also looking at the trijicon accupoint.

[Hannu]

S&B PM II 1,1-4x24 or 1,1-8x24

I would not count Accupoint as "durable" scope...

[OneGuy67]

You might want to wait until your ship time is closer. When we went, we all got Aimpoints and qualified with them prior to shipping out. You might yet get some through the .gov and you wouldn't want to waste your money if you didn't need to.

[josh7328]

You might want to wait until your ship time is closer. When we went, we all got Aimpoints and qualified with them prior to shipping out. You might yet get some through the .gov and you wouldn't want to waste your money if you didn't need to.

I have an aimpoint right now on an m16. Makes no sense. Why put a close combat optic on an m16, and put a longer range on an m4? Seems backwards to me.

[El Caballo Loco]

ACOGs cost that much because they're durable. They're single power so that they can be durable.

You're not going to find the same durability in a variable power scope that costs less than $800.

I would beg to differ. These things suck. I've broken three over four deployments. The most fragile part is the little Trijicon capsule inside the sight.


I have an aimpoint right now on an m16. Makes no sense. Why put a close combat optic on an m16, and put a longer range on an m4? Seems backwards to me.

Because the accuracy difference between the two is negligble and the size is not as big of a deal as people make it out to be?

Stick with whatever the mission dictates. How far are your engagements going to be? Every arms room usually has an assortment of sights and if you have a legitimate job where you will be needing to lay down some scunion then they should be more than happy to work with you.

If you are gung ho on spending your own money then go with an Eotech and a flip away magnifier and don't look back.

[josh7328]

I would beg to differ. These things suck. I've broken three over four deployments. The most fragile part is the little Trijicon capsule inside the sight.



Because the accuracy difference between the two is negligble and the size is not as big of a deal as people make it out to be?

Stick with whatever the mission dictates. How far are your engagements going to be? Every arms room usually has an assortment of sights and if you have a legitimate job where you will be needing to lay down some scunion then they should be more than happy to work with you.

If you are gung ho on spending your own money then go with an Eotech and a flip away magnifier and don't look back.. Hey a flip-to-side magnifier may be just the ticket! My weapon has an aimpoint, and my 6.8 uses the same, so i might as well just get the magnifier and avoid zeroing and stuff. Didnt even think about that.

[CO-Exprs]

The Accupoint is probably not the best choice. Lack of BDC turret and reticle options and lack of precision. My experience is that they are durable, but there are better options when shooting at varying distances.

In terms of functionality and durability the flip to the side option is probably the most problematic. The flip mounts don't repeatably realign properly and the hinge is the weak link in the system. When flipped to the side the rifle is horribly unbalanced and I've never seen a magnifier with even decent glass. By the time you drop the coin for a decent red dot and then a magnifier and mount you could be into a decent scope, which will be vastly supperior to a red dot and magnifier.

I don't know what your price range is, but there are lots of options. The new Meopta ZD 1-4 is a nice scope. The Leupold I already pointed out would make a fine choice, as would the US Optics SN4 with Lund reticle (built like a tank and offers a functional view). Many SEALS swear by the Elcan Specter DR (or thier version of it). The Swarovski Z6i is nice, but in that price range the S&B is supremely durable. Those are the main stream options.

[DANGERTASTIC!]

Comp M3 with an Aimpoint Magnifier. Clear, tough, and its got a 5 year battery life.

Get the LaRue FTS mount with an LT-129 for the M3. Its the exact set-up Im running.

I dont like ACOGS either

[josh7328]

Comp M3 with an Aimpoint Magnifier. Clear, tough, and its got a 5 year battery life.

Get the LaRue FTS mount with an LT-129 for the M3. Its the exact set-up Im running.

I dont like ACOGS either
This. I may go with a primary arms magnifier in a legit flip to side mount, like a larue, though. I have had great luck with their products in the past and they are very inexpensive. They have a replacement warranty too. Thoughts?

[DANGERTASTIC!]

This. I may go with a primary arms magnifier in a legit flip to side mount, like a larue, though. I have had great luck with their products in the past and they are very inexpensive. They have a replacement warranty too. Thoughts?

Im all about the buy once cry once and be done.

Aimpoint stuff is expensive....but for good reason. Once you hold one you will know why.

If I was gonna be that far in the middle of no-where, I would want the comfort of knowing I bought the best of the best.

Its one less thing you have to worry about

[josh7328]

Im all about the buy once cry once and be done.

Aimpoint stuff is expensive....but for good reason. Once you hold one you will know why.

If I was gonna be that far in the middle of no-where, I would want the comfort of knowing I bought the best of the best.

Its one less thing you have to worry about

Yeah i just took a look at one of our aimpoints on an m16 (im in the field right now) and i dont think there is really enough railspace on the receiver for a magnifier and the aimpoint m4 in the issue mount. I think a scope might be best. And you're right on the buy quality first thing. So i guess now im taking a couple steps backwards and revisiting the original idea for a scope.

[DANGERTASTIC!]

Yeah i just took a look at one of our aimpoints on an m16 (im in the field right now) and i dont think there is really enough railspace on the receiver for a magnifier and the aimpoint m4 in the issue mount. .

Heres my M4 with Magnifier and Comp M3, it works and there is enough room
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/securedownload1-1.jpg

[CO-Exprs]

To each his own, but I'm not sure why anyone would put a 300yd optic set up on a 600yd rifle. If you ran a red dot and magnifier, you would greatly diminish the advantage of the the extra 5.5" of barrel length. I can understand running the setup on an M4 in an urban setting, but isn't long range effectiveness one of the chief concernes of infantry men in Afghanistan?

[El Caballo Loco]

I think it depends on location. Afghanistan is not all mountains and huge valleys like there was in that Restrepo movie but that seems to be what a lot of people think.

Like I said, stick with what the mission dictates.

An eotech or aimpoint can easily be used as a 400-500yd sight in the right hands. If not, that should be a goal to strive for when you have the option to go out shooting or actually train.

OP, do you know what you are looking at engagement wise? Have you ever deployed to this part of Afghanistan or at all?

[josh7328]

I think it depends on location. Afghanistan is not all mountains and huge valleys like there was in that Restrepo movie but that seems to be what a lot of people think.

Like I said, stick with what the mission dictates.

An eotech or aimpoint can easily be used as a 400-500yd sight in the right hands. If not, that should be a goal to strive for when you have the option to go out shooting or actually train.

OP, do you know what you are looking at engagement wise? Have you ever deployed to this part of Afghanistan or at all?

No i have not been there before, but our company got in a shit ton of fire fights last deployment, and the vast majority of them were at long ranges (300-700 average). The biggest complaint here is that people had alot of trouble reaching out and touching the bad guys accurately with anything other than the crew served weapons.

[jrdale84]

No i have not been there before, but our company got in a shit ton of fire fights last deployment, and the vast majority of them were at long ranges (300-700 average). The biggest complaint here is that people had alot of trouble reaching out and touching the bad guys accurately with anything other than the crew served weapons.

First, and not related to the quote this whole thing assumes your unit let alone direct NCO leadership is okay with you taking something else. I carried my EOtech all the way there and back but 1st Army said no at MOBSTA. Issue only. So you might be throwing money away on something you can't use anyways (ive owned the EO for years).

Now onto the quote - Max effective point range of a M16A2 is .... 500 meters. Max area is 800 meters. Talking about hitting a target at 700 meters with a M16 is somewhat assuming accuracy will be tough with the best optics. Generally speaking the M240B and the M2 are going to be more successful just because of their caliber and frankly they are designed for it.

ACOG ruled supreme and everyone who had a CCO was pissed. I had a CCO and believe me next time I roll out the door I will have an ACOG if I have to remove it off someone's weapon myself. If your unit issues it to everyone consider yourself lucky. We only had 35 ACOGs and 140 troops.

[jrdale84]

I think it depends on location. Afghanistan is not all mountains and huge valleys like there was in that Restrepo movie but that seems to be what a lot of people think.

Like I said, stick with what the mission dictates.

An eotech or aimpoint can easily be used as a 400-500yd sight in the right hands. If not, that should be a goal to strive for when you have the option to go out shooting or actually train.

OP, do you know what you are looking at engagement wise? Have you ever deployed to this part of Afghanistan or at all?

Southern AFG looks like Dune from the 1980's movie (granted it was what inspired the novels). RC East looks like CO with larger mountains, I have not been to RC North but my understanding from friends who have is it looks like RC East with larger mountains. Also the Korengal is rather small ... not large (when speaking of width, and that's where OP Restrepo was). If you want to see AFG here in the states visit Reno.

[josh7328]

First, and not related to the quote this whole thing assumes your unit let alone direct NCO leadership is okay with you taking something else. I carried my EOtech all the way there and back but 1st Army said no at MOBSTA. Issue only. So you might be throwing money away on something you can't use anyways (ive owned the EO for years).

Now onto the quote - Max effective point range of a M16A2 is .... 500 meters. Max area is 800 meters. Talking about hitting a target at 700 meters with a M16 is somewhat assuming accuracy will be tough with the best optics. Generally speaking the M240B and the M2 are going to be more successful just because of their caliber and frankly they are designed for it.

ACOG ruled supreme and everyone who had a CCO was pissed. I had a CCO and believe me next time I roll out the door I will have an ACOG if I have to remove it off someone's weapon myself. If your unit issues it to everyone consider yourself lucky. We only had 35 ACOGs and 140 troops.I already had it approved by my chain of command, but if they dont have the final say then im not risking it.

[rockymtnrifleman]

The trijicon Accupoints are nice, I prefer the mil-dot models, with the amber redicle. the only models I've owned, Also the Luepold Mar AR's are nice optics...