View Full Version : 6mm-223
I was a little concerned initially since the barrel was a Midway badged AR Stoner and I am not sure who really makes the barrel. Here are the results from the first firing. This is at 50 yards with a 1/2 inch grid. I put the photo in a pdf.
I have to say this gun consistently shoots sub moa with everything I have tried from 58 grains to 80 grains. (I must admit I thought this was only possible with bolt guns. I was wrong.)
Once I jump to the 87 or 90 grain bullets, its all over the paper. I should mention this is a 20 inch pipe with a 1-8 twist so I didn't think it was a stabilization issue. But, perhaps I just wasn't slinging the heavier bullets fast enough to stabilize??
As an experiment I tried some 80 grain GMX (gilding) as they are longer than anything I have tried before. I was shocked to find a tight group with the slowest velocities I have measured out of this gun. The PoI also shifted low right...I am guessing due to the change in velocity.
My reason for wanting the heavier bullet/ non varmint is to use the gun on some fast goats. I guess I should just shoot what it likes and call it good!
Colorado Osprey
05-18-2012, 20:44
87's and 90's H335 is your friend.
Varget is good but a man has to know his limitations.
I would try some.. I have had great luck with my 10 twist 6x45 and H335.
60's also love AA-2015BR max load.... like match winning potential.
Have you pushed a patch down your barrel to confirm that 8 twist?
Your 8 twist should have plenty of stabilization.
8-Twist RPM = 2700 x (12/8) x 60 = 243,000 RPM (2700ft/sec)
It is generally accepted that 160,000 RPM will stabilize a bullet.
I have tried H335, 2015, TAC, 4895, x-terminator and Varget with marginal inconsistent results. The 87 grain I have been using are the Hornady SP. I should probably weigh them to check the variance. Maybe its a bad lot. What bullet are you using? What barrel length? I should see if Sierra makes a non-varmit in the 87-90 range.
By the way mine also likes 2015 (25g) behind the 58 grain Zmax.
I have also been playing with the notion of ordering a 24 inch blackhole (another upper) to see if it would handle the heavier bullets better.
Colorado Osprey
05-19-2012, 17:45
What bullet are you using? What barrel length? I should see if Sierra makes a non-varmit in the 87-90 range.
I have a Dtech built 1:10 20" full bull barrel 6x45 with an Olympic SUM (stainless Ultra-match broad cut barrel)
Bullets wise I have been shooting Sierra 90 grain GameKing #1535 BTHP as well as the Remington Bulk pack 80 grain SP. I don't shoot bigger than this in my 6x45 due to the 1:10 twist. With your 8 twist the Hornady 87 grain SP should work well too. (I like Hornady bullets for hunting and targets, I use the 100 grain interlock exclusively for hunting in my 243 Win)
I mainly use my 6x45 for yotes but I have been toying with the idea of antelope as I guide hunters and want to use something different. I would use the Remington 80 grain bullets for speed goats without hesitation as they have a proven track record as a game taker and my rifle shoots very well with them. Not up to the 60 grain for accuracy, but well enough for hunting.
Well, as luck would have it the Warehouse didn't stock the 90 grain Gamekings. They did have an 85 grain Gameking so I got a box of those. I also picked up a box of Nosler partitions also in 85 grain. My plan will be to work up some loads with H 335 and see if I can get them to group.
Ok, well I 've had the loads ready in H335 to go to the range...so maybe I should work some up with Varget and some other powders, since it will probably be June before this wind dies down.
Colorado Osprey
05-28-2012, 07:32
Wind?
What Wind?
I don't know what you are talking about.
http://www.windpowerninja.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wind-turbine-damage.jpg
I went out this morning in an attempt to beat the wind.
7 rounds each
Sierra GK 85g - 25g H335 - group 2"
Nosler Part 85g - 25g H335 - group 3"
Hornady SP 87g - 25g H335 - group 2"
All three groups where averaging about 2650 f/s
I am at a loss on this one. It will shoot clover leafs with 58 through 80 grain bullets. I absolutely love this cartridge.
I have checked the twist with the cleaning rod and get between 8 and 8.5 inches for a rotation.The only thing I haven't played with is the seating depth. All have been loaded to a COL of 2.26 to fit the magazine.
I think I will order some of the 80 grain Remington and give them a try. But other than that I can stick with what works.
Colorado Osprey
05-30-2012, 16:37
That sucks.
Interesting that Hodgdon Data lists 85 grain bullets with H335 @ 25.5 grains out to be around 2800ft/sec. Sierra's data 85-90 grain bullets says 25 grains @ +/- 2700ft/sec . My rifle is usually really close in the chrono from published velocity.
Is there any pressure signs? If not, I wonder if you try and drive up the velocity a little if the group will tighten?
It does seem a bit low, although the Hodgdon printout I downloaded shows an 85 grain Speer with 25.5 grains of H335 at 2818 f/s from a 24 inch test barrel. Thats 4 more inches than I am running. I don't see any visible signs of pressure on the cases. This has just been a mystery to me.
One thing I failed to mention...I was so happy with the way it was grouping with the 75 grain vmax. I couldn't help myself, I ordered another same spec barrel and put together a second upper, as fate would have it, this one too preforms (as far as I can tell) identically.
What I really find perplexing is how well it shoots the 80 grain GMX. The GMX is longer than any of these 85, 87 or 90 grain lead core bullets. And it doesn't seen to have any problem stabilizing the GMX at 2400 f/s. They are so long it really cuts into case volume.
I think it would be worth the effort, costs and weight to order a 24 inch barrel and see how it handles the heavier bullets. If nothing else it should render a little more velocity.
Well I went ahead and ordered a 24" barrel from BlackHole. I wish more manufacturers offered this chambering (6mm-45). I think it probably one of the best/optimal chamberings offered in the ar platform (IMHO).
Blackhole says it should ship by August 17th. I hope it is worth the wait! In the meantime I bought another receiver group and parts to put together another gun.....it must be a sickness.
eneranch
08-01-2012, 13:12
I'm not getting the consistant accuracy out of my BHW 18" 10-twist 6x45 I was hoping for, although I have shot some decent groups. Only have tried AA2015 & Benchmark for load work-ups.
This 5-shot 0.389" group @ 100yds was using 70gr Nosler B-tips over 24.5gr AA2015 right at 2798fps.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p31/eneranch/13.jpg
Nice... I hope my Blackhole barrel shoots as well, I just hate the wait.
I have been playing with the notion of ordering another 24inch barrel from DTECH and making a comparison.
Have you tried any of the 87 or heavier bullets?
eneranch
08-02-2012, 05:38
75gr is the heaviest I've gone; this rifle is my coyote calling rig so no need for more weight.
buckshotbarlow
08-10-2012, 20:29
my 20" bhw really likes 75gr vmax behind 8208 and cci primers
8208 is one powder I have yet to try....I will have to pick some up.
Mine too posts nice groups with the 75 and 80 grain bullets, where I seem to have problems is in the 85 and greater realm. I may be expecting too much, it is just hard to accept a 2 inch or greater group when all the lighter bullets well inside 1 moa.
I have wondered if it might be the chamber on my barrel, with regard to the throat. I am limited by the magazine as to the COL and the ogive of the heavier bullets may be increasing the distance of the lands.
I wish that black hole barrel would get here!
eneranch
08-11-2012, 09:16
Gave Varget a try the other day; red dot is 3/4"
It's only 3 shots, but I LIKE !! [Wow2]
I'm heading back out tomorrow to see if I can duplicate this result; and a new battery in chrono to get FPS
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p31/eneranch/scan0001-1.jpg
Wow! That is nice!
It is easy to see why folks love this cartridge!
One issue I have pondered is getting rid of all my loaded 223 ammo or marking the 6mm ammo so as to avoid any mistakes by accidentally cambering a 223 in the 6 milly.
eneranch
08-11-2012, 10:57
Don't think chambering a .223 into the 6x45 would cause a big problem; chambering a 6x45 in a .223 would be VERY dangerous. [Rant1][Rant1][Rant1][Rant1]
All of my loaded ammunition is in clearly marked boxes; the only time I have loose ammo around is while hunting, & only 1 caliber at a time.
I recently purchased 500 new brass for my 6x45 and it has a unique headstamp; as long as my eyes work ok I can't mix them up.
I believe your right and I don't think there would be any real harm. Just thinking in the interest of safety.... I have a similar situation with my 338~06, but just made my eldest son happy my giving him all my 3006 stuff.
The only 223 I have now is in the form of a Bushmaster m4, so it would be an easy barrel swap.
Well I went out today, not really expecting much success, and tried some IMR 8208 with the "heavier" bullets that I have had so much trouble with and actually had some promising results. Prior attempts to shoot these bullets with other powders yielded 2 to 3 inch groups with no real pattern.
buckshotbarlow
08-12-2012, 21:38
I had to do the ladder method on my BHW tube. Benchmark worked, varget worked, but until i ran the ladder method, i found what the tube told me it liked versus what I was telling it what i thought it liked. One thing with my tube is that it flat out hates anything flatbase above 75. BT's will pattern but not group above 80gr. The COL, like u mentioned, just flat out sucks. I'm thinking about buying a reamer, and rebarreling my savage 12 BVSS in 223. No turn neck so i can crank em out on my 1050...
Well I went out today, not really expecting much success, and tried some IMR 8208 with the "heavier" bullets that I have had so much trouble with and actually had some promising results. Prior attempts to shoot these bullets with other powders yielded 2 to 3 inch groups with no real pattern.
I did try a ladder test(s) using 0.5 grain increments on Varget, 335, Xterminator, 2015, and IMR 4895 with depressing results. I burned through 2 boxes of the 87 grain Hornady bullets and gave up on them moving to Sierra's in 85 and 90 grain and Nosler in 85 grain. Neither shot any better. It was perplexing that it could shoot half inch groups with the 58 or 75 grain bullets but 85 an heavier would go all over the place. Even more perplexing the 80 grain GMX gilding material bullets which are by far the longest bullets I have shot would print near clover leafs. I tried varying the distance of the lands within magazine limitations looking for a sweet spot but found no appreciable delta.
I have wondered if it could be related to the primers I have used Remington and Federal due to availability but perhaps I should be using a magnum or a bench rest primer especially with the ball powders. I just don't know.
I think I will try some of the Remington 80 grain bullets. But I am at a point where I think I should just load what it likes and call it good. Well... that is after trying out the 24 inch Blackhole barrel when it gets here. I've waited so long I now have everything but a stock to build another gun..
buckshotbarlow
08-13-2012, 20:27
Primers can be finicky, i gave up on remmy's, federal match are my preferred. Try some winchesters, see if they do any thing different. Are you crimping at all? I have all my brass trimmed to 44.5mm, chamfered with a vld chamfer, then reamed. All primer pockets are cleaned and the flash holes deburred. I did find a huge bump in accuracy once i got away from range pickup brass and went to nosler/lapua.
When doing ladder's, i start at 300yds once i get the gun on paper.
It sounds like we do the same brass prep although I have been using Lake City brass mostly. (Midway had a nice sale on bulk a while back.) I haven't been crimping...most of my 6mm bullets don't have a cannulure. Are you thinking the heavier bullets could be moving as a result of the inertial cycling? I will try to remember to take the calipers with me to the range next time and do some before and after measurements.
The way those 87 grain bullets had been shooting I don't think I could get them on paper at 300 yards.
eneranch
08-14-2012, 11:01
I ran a Primer Test yesterday using 70gr Sierra TNTs over 25.8gr Varget in brand new brass prepped & weighed with FedGM, Rem7-1/2, CCI400, & WSR primers.
Was not real happy with the results. Are you guys seeing the same things?? I can't seem to get low ES #s
11952
Colorado Osprey
08-14-2012, 17:07
Looks like you need to stick with Federal. I was very surprised by the Remington deviation.
I wonder if full length resizing might be adding to the velocity spread.
buckshotbarlow
08-14-2012, 19:15
a couple other things...
Dies, i run redding, but I use a small base FL sizer to resize first for first neck up. Then I run the FL 6x45 resizer to make sure that they feed when I neck up from 223.
I make sure that all cases are chamfered/reamed with no nics or dings. Same with the primer pockets being cleaned, and flash hole. I do this because it's a bad prairie dog habit with my 250's. Cleaning brass prep is 3 shots (slight chamfer/ream on every one), with crushed walnut, then on the 4th, into the Stainless steel media tumbler to clean the insides.
I can load up a couple rounds with my 75vmax's (8208/BenchMark) and see if they run in your guns using my method if you want. I'll try and dig up my latest target, but it was on a windy day, and I'm really happy with the grouping considering the crappy weather.
That varget load should shoot, i'll duplicate the powder charge, chrono all loads and see what I get for groups or patterns.
The redding die part number is:
MM/223 Rem (6MM x 45) 80312
That sounds good. Do you want to try some of the 87 or 90 grain bullets?
eneranch
08-15-2012, 06:05
Looks like you need to stick with Federal. I was very surprised by the Remington deviation.
I agree about the Federal; here are the groups shot at 100 yds( red dot is 3/4"), #1 is Win (called flyer) #2 is Federal $3 is Remington & #4 is CCI
11960
I wonder if full length resizing might be adding to the velocity spread.
Why do you think FLSing would cause a velocity spread??
a couple other things...
Dies, i run redding, but I use a small base FL sizer to resize first for first neck up. Then I run the FL 6x45 resizer to make sure that they feed when I neck up from 223.
I make sure that all cases are chamfered/reamed with no nics or dings. Same with the primer pockets being cleaned, and flash hole. I do this because it's a bad prairie dog habit with my 250's. Cleaning brass prep is 3 shots (slight chamfer/ream on every one), with crushed walnut, then on the 4th, into the Stainless steel media tumbler to clean the insides.
I can load up a couple rounds with my 75vmax's (8208/BenchMark) and see if they run in your guns using my method if you want. I'll try and dig up my latest target, but it was on a windy day, and I'm really happy with the grouping considering the crappy weather.
That varget load should shoot, i'll duplicate the powder charge, chrono all loads and see what I get for groups or patterns.
The redding die part number is:
MM/223 Rem (6MM x 45) 80312
I use Redding Dies for my 6x45
This brass is brand new, weighed, sized, tumbled (fine corn cob), trimmed, primer pocket uniformed, flash hole deburred, chamfered, then final tumble. Sounds like we have the same method; if I'm doing something wrong, someone let me know.
buckshotbarlow
08-15-2012, 07:31
That sounds good. Do you want to try some of the 87 or 90 grain bullets?
Lets try the 75's first, then we'll work up. My gun hates anything above 80's.
buckshotbarlow
08-15-2012, 07:33
Maybe we should get together sometime at BenL. and figure out what's going on. I could bring my single stage press and components and we could work on some loads while there. This crap drives me nuttz. I only shoot the 75vmax's.
I agree about the Federal; here are the groups shot at 100 yds( red dot is 3/4"), #1 is Win (called flyer) #2 is Federal $3 is Remington & #4 is CCI
11960
Why do you think FLSing would cause a velocity spread??
I use Redding Dies for my 6x45
This brass is brand new, weighed, sized, tumbled (fine corn cob), trimmed, primer pocket uniformed, flash hole deburred, chamfered, then final tumble. Sounds like we have the same method; if I'm doing something wrong, someone let me know.
eneranch
08-15-2012, 07:43
Maybe we should get together sometime at BenL. and figure out what's going on. I could bring my single stage press and components and we could work on some loads while there. This crap drives me nuttz. I only shoot the 75vmax's.
I agree; it's been driving me nuts for a while now.
If you want to get together at Ben Lomond sometime that would be fine.
I'll PM you my contact info.
here is a ten shot group from today with Federal primers, 25grains 2015 and 58 grain Zmax.
Spread of 58 fps
buckshotbarlow
08-15-2012, 19:44
i talked to eneranch today about his BHW tube, and we're seeing the same problems. I'm going to try and get some 67 gr vmax to see what the hell they do. Also, gonna try some vvn powders either n135 or n530 to see if that does the trick. The velocity looks decent, but I think we are suffering from a ok barrel manufacture. I might have my gun smith set me up with a swap barrel for my savage.
One other thing, I'm gonna hit the range with a better scope next time. My 6-18 leo is gonna get bumped for a 8-32 mueller or burris. At 300 that should assist with load development. I have to get his gun ready for sept1, after dove hunting, the dogs might come out to see what the hell is going on...
Well let me know if you all break the code. I am going to play a little more with 8208. I also ordered a neck sizing die, but in the mean time I might try backing my fl die off a 1/16" and see if it has any measurable effect in velocity spread.
eneranch
08-18-2012, 08:19
I'm not convinced there is s code to be broken; when it comes to accuracy, compromise is a dirty word.
buckshotbarlow
08-18-2012, 19:49
i was gonna hit the range today, 2 much wind where i'm at. Tomorrow is out, gotta scout elk land tomorrow with my bro-in-law. I hate this garbage wind, everyday i want to hit the range, guess what...WIND!!!
I know this is not a definitive test but I backed off my Redding resizer die by a 1/16" to see if it would have any effect on the velocity spread (don't have a neck die for this caliber.) I loaded 10 full length and 10 "backed off" and went to the range today. Posted here are the shot groups with respective velocities. As a note there was a 5 to 10 knot right quartering tailwind.
I am wondering if my chamber might be a bit on the large size in comparison to my die?
buckshotbarlow
08-28-2012, 21:17
I know this is not a definitive test but I backed off my Redding resizer die by a 1/16" to see if it would have any effect on the velocity spread (don't have a neck die for this caliber.) I loaded 10 full length and 10 "backed off" and went to the range today. Posted here are the shot groups with respective velocities. As a note there was a 5 to 10 knot right quartering tailwind.
I am wondering if my chamber might be a bit on the large size in comparison to my die?
I brought my 6 up to the range today, but didn't shoot it because of the wind...My 300wb at 25yards didn't have much of an issue...Every frig'n time i go to the range now with that 6x223 it's windy...I'm done shooting in the wind trying to get groups...
Yea as windy as it has been getting I'll have to dig out the 378 wb. At least the holes will be easier to see.
I did notice a few things yesterday; velocities where lower with less of the neck tensioned, the ES was almost half of the FL and the cases where cooler after firing. I think I would like to try the Redding S series dies and play with the neck tension. My concern is with the inertial cycling of the gas gun could change the bullet seating.
buckshotbarlow
09-04-2012, 13:37
had my 6 out dove hunting, and potted off a few other varmint critters (skunk, coon, turtle)...about 75yds and that thing just turns varmints inside out...
As many problems as we have in finding the the 1hole load, it still kills the varmints deader than a doornail...
I just love this caliber! I was reading on another site a fellow was having success with 100 & 105's out of a 20 inch barrel, so I picked up a box of the 100 g btsp. I started loading for a ladder .
Dove with a 6 mm? I can't hit them on the wing with a 12 gauge!
Well it's coming up on 3 months since I ordered the Black hole barrel, Stacy at Black hole said it would ship by the 17th of August, so I sent an email to see if I could get an updated delivery date....no response. That can't be good.
buckshotbarlow
09-05-2012, 20:48
Just be patient, took 6 months for mine. Thinking about getting a 16", but would rather get a shilen (or other good tube) 26" for my savage model 12 bvss to replace my 223 tube.
I just love this caliber! I was reading on another site a fellow was having success with 100 & 105's out of a 20 inch barrel, so I picked up a box of the 100 g btsp. I started loading for a ladder .
Dove with a 6 mm? I can't hit them on the wing with a 12 gauge!
I used a 12 for dovecong, should used my 28 but didn't have enough ammo.
Well it's coming up on 3 months since I ordered the Black hole barrel, Stacy at Black hole said it would ship by the 17th of August, so I sent an email to see if I could get an updated delivery date....no response. That can't be good.
I got an email stating it should be ready in a week. Well here is hoping!
I think I too would go with the Savage option. My oldest son and I where at Sportsman's, he has his eye on one flavored in 300 Win Mag. I couldn't believe how light the trigger pull was. I have never seen a factory gun with a trigger pull that light, it had to be well under 3 pounds. It sure was sweet!
This is killing me...between tiling the basement, replacing the clutch in Dodgezilla, and finally some calm winds....I need a range fix!
buckshotbarlow
09-10-2012, 20:35
I got a model 112 bvss in 300wm, damn thing weighs a small ton, but really thumps poodles at 500yds. Can't beat that factory trigger at all!
Sigh, need to rebuild another 16" 6x45 ar after i get a vehicle swap done.
I got an email stating it should be ready in a week. Well here is hoping!
I think I too would go with the Savage option. My oldest son and I where at Sportsman's, he has his eye on one flavored in 300 Win Mag. I couldn't believe how light the trigger pull was. I have never seen a factory gun with a trigger pull that light, it had to be well under 3 pounds. It sure was sweet!
This is killing me...between tiling the basement, replacing the clutch in Dodgezilla, and finally some calm winds....I need a range fix!
I went to the range today and tried to do a ladder test at the 300 with some Hornady 100g BTSP and some Varget. the sweet spot was 24 - 24.5 grains with the vertical group close to 1/2 inch (avg Vel 2499). All in all the entire group with the 100 grain bullets was better at 300 than I was getting 87 grain bullets at 100.
For whatever reason that barrel doesn't like the 87 - 90 grain bullets. I am glad I tried the 100's, I had about given up on anything heavier than the 75's.
buckshotbarlow
09-21-2012, 20:35
good bits, i'm gonna hit the dog field tomorrow and see how mine does. Wish me luck. I have a feeling, 300yds is gonna be a bitch on those vc!
buckshotbarlow
09-24-2012, 19:35
6mm-223 is frig'n the pill of death on varmint cong. My uncle only let me shoot one since he's poisoning them. Just vaporized it at 50yds.
6mm-223 is frig'n the pill of death on varmint cong. My uncle only let me shoot one since he's poisoning them. Just vaporized it at 50yds. Why is a poison death for the pdogs preferable to red cloud?
eneranch
09-27-2012, 03:47
My uncle only let me shoot one since he's poisoning them...
WTF??? Why only shoot one ? [Dunno]
buckshotbarlow
11-22-2012, 14:18
WTF??? Why only shoot one ? [Dunno]
i couldn't make it out there this summer so he paid a guy to poison them. Gonna try and get some Yotes with it here in a month...
eneranch
11-23-2012, 04:32
Heading East this morning, gonna try calling some Yotes on Walk-In land. If that doesn't work, I'll be looking for Pheasant.
buckshotbarlow
07-07-2013, 17:55
took mine out to the range again with some 8208 that i picked up. 75gr vmax, behind a max charge of 27gr yielded .75" groups. Needless to say, i've found my load. I need to get my chrono out to see what these are cooking at, but the IMR sure beat down tac and varget...
eneranch
07-08-2013, 05:42
Made it to the range yesterday also; shooting steel at 600 yds with the 6x45 58gr Z-max over 25.3g AA2015 @ 3016fps
Also took along the 223 shooting 69gr SMK over 26g of Varget @ 3113fps ; this load really makes the steel "ring"
I have had my best results with 2015 on the zmax and 8208 for the heavier bullets in my 6mm x 45. Six months ago while on the Midsouth site I ordered 2 eight pound(ers) of 8208, and just got them a couple weeks ago. Great timing as I was running low.
Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
buckshotbarlow
07-23-2013, 18:24
Just ordered a 16" LTM from BHW today. I'm laughing at myself as i'm doing this...removing all 223 varmint guns and replacing them slowly with 6x45 varmint guns...
I got the black with 1/2x28 threads. Came to 290ish with shipping. Plan on using it for sploshing some yotes on the ol tractor when helping my uncle during harvest...
belizejet
12-29-2013, 09:36
I'm intrigued by this round and was thinking about trying to get an upper or build one for it. Only 500fps less than a .243 WIN apparently. Brass is trimmed and shaped .223 like the 300 BLK is. Anybody have any experience with it?
Colorado Osprey
12-29-2013, 16:19
What would you like to know about the 6x45 aka 6mm/223 I have owned a few for almost 15 years.
It is a poor mans introduction to wildcats.
Velocity is higher with the same weight bullet of a 223 because of increased case volume, decrease in bearing surface and an increase in pushable surface area.
Energy at the same velocity is about a 30% gain over a standard 223 round.
You can legally hunt with this cartridge. It is great in deer/pronghorn rifle out to about 300 yards.
The best part is all the parts stay the same in the AR with just a barrel swap... even mags are the same!
BTW if you need load data I can hook you up with published data.
belizejet
12-29-2013, 19:27
I'm looking at getting an upper/building an upper and doing some varmiting with it. I already make my own 300BLK cases so I figure this won't be so hard. I would love any info you can give me on it. I'm just mulling over the investment for a wildcat round. I'll probably never be able to sell the barrel if I get one and don't like it. I would also like a 20 inch barrel. Know some resources so I can really research it? I see midway has the dies I need already.
belizejet
12-29-2013, 19:30
Maybe we can meet up sometime. I go out to my uncles place in Calhan every once in a while. That's Peytonish right?
Colorado Osprey
12-30-2013, 06:35
Redding makes the cheapest dies. One pass through with the taper ball expander and you are done. No trimming or anything.
These are the ones I use:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/744523/redding-2-die-set-6x45mm-6mm-223-remington
Although since RCBS is now making dies at 1/2 the price I could be easily swayed
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/143894/rcbs-ar-series-small-base-2-die-set-with-taper-crimp-6x45mm-6mm-223-remington
I have a 20" upper built for me by Dtech akak Mike Milli. --- no way I will ever think of selling it. Easily sub-MOA.
http://www.dtechuppers.com/ar-15-upper-receivers.html'
One of the other Bonuses of the 6x45 is it is a very forgiving cartride to load for. I haven't found a bad loading that won't keep good groups.
He is the Guru in off caliber AR's and pioneered the WSSM platform AR's with Olympic.
Be prepared for about a year waiting list. He is the go to for hunting caliber AR's and has a large following.
There are some other hotrods now available that are about the same amount of work but a lot more return. 6mmDTI aka 6.8SPC brass necked down to 6mm and you can a lot more velocity with the extra case capacity. White Oak Armory is making the same with slightly different case dimensions called a 6mmWOA.
Yes Calhan is 8 miles from me, 6 miles from my work. Yes Peytonish.
AKA-Spook
12-30-2013, 15:57
Also consider the 6TCU, the AR's I've run it in seem to have forgotten that a 40 degree shoulder has difficulty feeding, and the TCU chambering gives you a little more juice.....the downside being the heavy bullets get set way back in the case to make ML.
6MM Grendle is no slouch either. Change the size bushing and expander ball on 6.5 G dies and you're good to go.
buckshotbarlow
12-30-2013, 22:42
i run 1 20" (BHW tube) and have a second 16" (BHW tube) coming in 2 weeks. I love the way the round shoots. I have had my best success with 8208 and the 75gr vmax. This gun smacks pdogs damn good, along with the occasional yote. Almost contemplating into making a switch barrel on one of my savages in this round also. Try and stick within the varget burn rate if you want to tinker with loads. I use all FMSRP's...Tips are seated to mag length....I also switched all my uppers and lowers to billets for this round. I guess it's a novelty kinda thing, and it helps me keep the calibers separated.
belizejet
01-02-2014, 10:10
Wow! Thanks for all the info. I want to stick with my standard AR mags since I cant get any new ones (maybe someday we will get our freedoms back). The 6.5 and 6.8 use different mags dont they?
Wow! Thanks for all the info. I want to stick with my standard AR mags since I cant get any new ones (maybe someday we will get our freedoms back). The 6.5 and 6.8 use different mags dont they?
If you are talking about the 6.5Grendel and the 6.8 SPC, yes, different bolts and different mags. The 6x45 is a pretty decent cartridge. It is actually one you can reasonably use as an all-around AR if you reload since the Nosler Varmageddon is about $165/1K.
If you want a 6.5 in the same vein as the 6x45, give me about a month and I will have my prototype up and running. Everything the same as the .223/5.56 except the barrel. Bullets are more coin, and heavier, but the ballistics are very promising.
belizejet
01-02-2014, 10:22
Looks like it is a lead time of at least 6 months just for a barrel. I guess I should order one and it will be a later project.
belizejet
01-02-2014, 10:24
MarkCO sounds good. Let me know how it works. Im looking for a cartridge with a little more umpf than the .223. Already have a 300BLK but I know there is a perfect cartridge out in the world for an AR that you can hunt with and is more efficient at longer ranges than a 300BLK. I am thinking 6 or 6.5 mm.
Sure will. Just FYI, my starting point is a 107 Sierra at 2650 from an 18" barrel. After that, I will try 95s, 123s and 130s. No plans to go heavier. There is not a lot of data, so I am working it all up in a pretty conservative manner.
belizejet
01-05-2014, 22:26
Didn't know that .243 projectiles got heavier than 115 grn.
Didn't know that .243 projectiles got heavier than 115 grn.
David Tubb made a run of 117s. He put a plastic tip in the 115 Matchking (DTAC) until they kept blowing up on the way to the 800-1000 yard targets at the 2008-ish Rocky Mountain long range championship.
That is/was the heaviest 6mm that I know of.
Didn't know that .243 projectiles got heavier than 115 grn.
I am using 6.5 bullets.
belizejet
02-25-2014, 13:49
OK, another question. I am thinking of finally pulling the trigger on a 6x45 barrel in 18" but dont know what twist. 1:9 or 1:10? I plan on trying standard size .243 projectiles like 85grn plus or minus. not any heaver than 95grn or I would lose any advantage you gain over the 300BLK. I bought the dies already to start making brass and now I want to build the upper.
SideShow Bob
02-25-2014, 19:35
OK, here is a dumb ass I don't know crap question.
If the 6 and 5.56 (.223) both are 45mm in length and using the same bolt, what prevents one from pulling a Tard move like chambering a .223 or 5.56 and pulling the trigger in a 6X45 ?
I can see the oppisite of a 6x45 not fully chambering in a 5.56x45.
AKA-Spook
02-25-2014, 20:25
its called fire-forming.
OK, here is a dumb ass I don't know crap question.
If the 6 and 5.56 (.223) both are 45mm in length and using the same bolt, what prevents one from pulling a Tard move like chambering a .223 or 5.56 and pulling the trigger in a 6X45 ?
I can see the oppisite of a 6x45 not fully chambering in a 5.56x45.
Nothing. Firing 5.56 in 6mm wouldn't hurt anything. I would not depend on the larger bore preventing chambering of 6mm in 5.56. It has happened with 300blk in 5.56 chambers...
Colorado Osprey
02-25-2014, 22:13
OK, another question. I am thinking of finally pulling the trigger on a 6x45 barrel in 18" but dont know what twist. 1:9 or 1:10? I plan on trying standard size .243 projectiles like 85grn plus or minus. not any heaver than 95grn or I would lose any advantage you gain over the 300BLK. I bought the dies already to start making brass and now I want to build the upper.
Most of the bullets larger than 85 grains will shoot, but will not feed from a standard AR magazine. I have a C-products stainless mag that lets me get a few more thousands of overall length to shoot 87's.
I shoot mostly 85's in a 1:10 20" barrel AR. BTW the 60 grain HP's are outstanding in both velocity and accuracy. They seem to hit coyotes way harder than a 62 grain bullet from a 223.
XC700116
02-27-2014, 21:06
Saw this thread the other night and stumbled across this today if you're still looking for a 6/223 barrel
http://forum.snipershide.com/options-accessories-sale/236491-black-hole-weaponry-6x45-barrel-dies.html
buckshotbarlow
03-01-2014, 20:28
MarkCO....Ok, u opened a can of worms here with a 260x45....What kind of shoulder are you going to run on it? I looked into the 25x45 and the bullets just sucked, plus availability....Have you thought about taking a 6x45 and giving it a ackley shoulder? I got a virgin 6x45 tube we could play with...
hghclsswhitetrsh
03-01-2014, 20:40
I'm trying to track down a barrel now. Yipppeee
MarkCO....Ok, u opened a can of worms here with a 260x45....What kind of shoulder are you going to run on it? I looked into the 25x45 and the bullets just sucked, plus availability....Have you thought about taking a 6x45 and giving it a ackley shoulder? I got a virgin 6x45 tube we could play with...
I settled on the 6.5 PCC. It has some support in reamers and dies, but no-one has really pushed it yet. The guys who have not liked it, IMHO were not using the best combinations of powder and bullets. Granted, it is an experiment for me and I might end up coming back to the 6x45. But my calcs tell me I can run the same bullet mass at about 150 faster than the 6x45. We will see if it bears out in reality.
With matches and projects, might not get it done until June or so...the 450 Corvette parts head out to Cerakote next week, then tuning.
hghclsswhitetrsh
03-01-2014, 23:24
What's the average life expectancy of one these barrels?
buckshotbarlow
03-02-2014, 16:47
i run my 75gr vmaxs at about 2600fps. My 20" doesn't get shot a whole heck of a lot time anymore since my range is shutdown and in a cluster f*ck of status about reopening. I have about 250rds down range and I think that the life of the tube will be very high because of the low speeds. BHW is a poly3 grove barrel, so i'm not worried about the rifling wearing down...I'm thinking about giving this round an ackly treatment to get some more velocity and case capacity...might have to start looking for a new reamer.
Here's our other post, might want to have the mods do a merge...
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/46001-6mm-223
buckshotbarlow
03-02-2014, 17:16
i guess the 6x45ackley is the same as the 6tcu...
http://www.6mmbr.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=1770476
buckshotbarlow
03-02-2014, 17:17
well, now i found a reamer...
http://www.z-hat.com/ReamerList.htm
buckshotbarlow
03-02-2014, 17:32
soooo...it looks like u just get a 223AI redding type s bushing die, swap out a 6mm set and your gtg. Outside of a few fps gained, you would have an easy way to see the difference between a 223 and a 6x45AI. Other issues I saw was jump if you got the tcu route since it's throat is longer to support the bigger poison pills...
buckshotbarlow
03-02-2014, 17:35
looks like here are some dies...http://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/caliber-list?page=3
buckshotbarlow
03-02-2014, 17:41
brought the older post to the top...with this post...
https://www.ar-15.co/images/icons/icon1.png
i guess the 6x45ackley is the same as the 6tcu...
http://www.6mmbr.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=1770476
Is there really any significant gain in the AI for the 6mmx45? I would imagine you have to start with a new barrel as reaming an existing barrel would call for shortening the barrel at the extension and would be problematic for the gas tube length. I would love to collect some data for comparison. From an efficiency standpoint I already find the 6mm x 45 to be a rockstar.
buckshotbarlow
03-04-2014, 21:43
In theory, you pull off the extensions, run the reamer and reattach the extension. You're not shortening anything, headspace stays "almost" the same as a regular 223. Here's a reference on the change.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/
Taken from the link..."This is because the overall geometry doesn’t change very dramatically other than the shoulder angle. You’re not blowing the shoulder forward into the neck."
Also, you increase the case volume around 7-8%, you get appx 100-140 fps more......All the more for a faster shooter, also looking at doing a switch barrel with my 223 savage.
I have an email into bert, i think he might kick my ass over this.
I think I would like to try this on the 24" BHW barrel. Let me know if you set this up, perhaps I could piggy back the effort.
buckshotbarlow
03-07-2014, 20:18
i know someone who was very very naughty today....
hghclsswhitetrsh
03-07-2014, 21:32
i know someone who was very very naughty today....
Oo oo who was it?
buckshotbarlow
03-08-2014, 09:19
Oo oo who was it?
I guess Bert will find out...
buckshotbarlow
03-08-2014, 09:31
I think I would like to try this on the 24" BHW barrel. Let me know if you set this up, perhaps I could piggy back the effort.
We're in action,hghclsswhitetrsh (https://www.ar-15.co/members/6384-hghclsswhitetrsh) just put an order in. I'm going to break down my ar's when his stuff arrives and we're going to meet at Berts. This is gonna be fun...
Ok, hmmmm so do I do one 6mm x45 or all four of them? A concern for me is I have a substantial amount of 6mmx45 loaded. I recognize we have to fire form the cases but how much will firing the non AI rounds effect accuracy from an AI chamber? Concern is over my pet loads.
Count me in for at least one barrel to be reamed.
buckshotbarlow
03-08-2014, 20:25
Fireformed rounds are actually pretty damn accurate. You will not loose accuracy with fire forming. I'm 100% in on all guns going to the 6x45AI, don't want to deal with any issues of the wrong ammo in the the wrong gun.
buckshotbarlow
03-08-2014, 20:43
i might get some of these for fire forming...
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/26941
or
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/939150281/midwayusa-dogtown-bullets-243-caliber-6mm-243-diameter-55-grain-soft-point?cm_vc=ProductFinding (http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/26941)
DSB OUTDOORS
03-08-2014, 20:46
Fireformed rounds are actually pretty damn accurate. You will not loose accuracy with fire forming. I'm 100% in on all guns going to the 6x45AI, don't want to deal with any issues of the wrong ammo in the the wrong gun.
^^^ This. I don't have a 6mm-223. But...... I do have a 6.5 Grendle. I fireform brass out of 7.62 x 39 brass and have the same results as factory brass.
We'll I may do as many as three but the conservative side of me will probably hold one out. Let me know when we can drop these barrels off as I will have to drive up from the Springs.
I don't see the Grendel as much of a delta on fire forming. I run the 7.62 x 39 cases through a 264 LBC, RCBS die and they are dimensionally similar to the Grendel brass from Hornady and Lapua. With the exception of the primer pocket of course. The 7.62 x 39 has about .015 more taper at the shoulder before firing than factory dimension .
buckshotbarlow
03-09-2014, 16:25
my problem with this whole thing is now i'm on armslist/gunbroker/everywhere else looking for a used action. I found a savage on AL, if one of u all beat me 2 it...no problem. I just can't justify ripping my model12bvss apart. It's a micky mouse gun at 200yds...
Colorado Osprey
03-10-2014, 15:03
my problem with this whole thing is now i'm on armslist/gunbroker/everywhere else looking for a used action. I found a savage on AL, if one of u all beat me 2 it...no problem. I just can't justify ripping my model12bvss apart. It's a micky mouse gun at 200yds...
Don't forget the Stevens 200 action is the same as well. You can still find these new (complete rifles) for under $280
hghclsswhitetrsh
03-11-2014, 16:04
Here we go...
http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/RamboZuki84/A90A508B-A26B-4D1F-8069-6D3C155B8AAA_zpscueeqasf.jpg
http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/RamboZuki84/9736C3BE-1A50-4607-AA93-56AE3E03AB02_zpssduq8fcn.jpg
http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/RamboZuki84/BBBD983D-621B-4794-A391-906BE29A9890_zpsdk3wabz4.jpg
http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/RamboZuki84/429166DF-E3E0-49C3-AC8D-058150AACD22_zpswlvymel2.jpg
In theory, you pull off the extensions, run the reamer and reattach the extension. You're not shortening anything, headspace stays "almost" the same as a regular 223. Here's a reference on the change.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/
Taken from the link..."This is because the overall geometry doesn’t change very dramatically other than the shoulder angle. You’re not blowing the shoulder forward into the neck."
Also, you increase the case volume around 7-8%, you get appx 100-140 fps more......All the more for a faster shooter, also looking at doing a switch barrel with my 223 savage.
I have an email into bert, i think he might kick my ass over this.
From what I've been able to research, you do shorten the barrel 1 thread.
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=304939
I also talked with Earl Hickman at Hickman Rifles here in the Springs and he confirmed the process requires 1thread removal. Also different go nogo gauges.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
hghclsswhitetrsh
05-01-2014, 18:22
Dropped off my parts at Bert's today. Hopefully have an assembled upper in a month. [UZI]
Now to find dies for the 6x45ai.
Any progress?
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hghclsswhitetrsh
06-25-2014, 22:07
None, not even sure when it will be started. Still waiting on a progress update. I think I'm gonna go with the 6mm tcu however. I am struggling trying to find the dies for the AI.
It would've been awesome to have the 6mm to shoot p dogs Saturday, it was windy as hell.
belizejet
09-09-2014, 17:26
Update from a few months ago on my 6mmx45 build. I bought an 18" target crowned match barrel from Black Hole Weaponry and built my upper. I loaded up a variety of cartridges and found that the heavier bullets do not shoot well. I get sub 1"groups at 100 yards with 70grn Nosler BT's and 65grn Hornady varmiter. When I loaded up the 85 grn hornady inter bonds they went to like 7" groups. It's a 1:10 twist barrel. I really want to try some 75-80 grn but all I can find is super bookoo bucks Barnes TTSX 80grn.
I have had pretty good luck working up loads based upon barrel time nodes. I would be happy to help you work up a load. I have to fly
to Michigan tomorrow but if you can tell me what powder(s) you plan to use, I can run them through QuickLoad with your referenced bullet and and target a useable node for your 18 inch barrel.
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Belizejet, you may also want to try the Remington 80 grain PSP, they have them at Specialty Sports for a little over $20 for hundred round green bag.
hghclsswhitetrsh
09-18-2014, 21:15
Anyone have a recommendation for a gun smith to profile a 6mm tube? Didn't work out with Bp.
You might try Hickman Rifles here in the Springs, Earl has been my go to man for all my smithing.
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buckshotbarlow
12-14-2014, 08:50
Hi Guys,
I had a bunch of shit hit the fan with work and my guns, but i'm back now. I got my 6x45 cooking with 3k fps on the loads I posted. I'm averaging 3008fps with the 75gr vmax out of my 20". I'm looking at the numbers and the amount of work and I don't think it's really worth going to the AI after i blew up an upper. SO here's some of the problems I had...BHW barrel was marginally pinned to the barrel extension. When I tried taking the barrel off, the extension moved, not the barrel...O.O....I took the upper into BT and we pulled the barrel off (thanks) then sent into BHW. I got the new barrel last week. I sighted it in yesterday and was very pleased with the results. I don't know why, but everything was right on the money...Only took me 4 rounds to zero the scope. So here's what I'm seeing on my 2 different builds:
20" BHW SS 1x9 tube = 3008fps
16" BHW SS 1x9 tube = 2850fps
Bullet is the hornaday vmax 75gr...http://www.hornady.com/store/6mm-.243-75-gr-V-MAX/
Powder is listed somewhere on the thread here...I can't remember which thread. (8208, 26grs)
cci 400 primers
Groups are .75" at 100yd on a windy day (yesterday was windy), .5" on a good day w/no wind.
The AI was an interesting concept, to gain a couple 100fps more was very very tasty, but after seeing what this did yesterday, i'm dropping that idea. Widners had a huge sale on some sierra 70gr blitzkings, but they're sold out now. I picked up 1k of those for my 16" for blaster rounds.
Going forward....I'm going to get some 87's and run those now that I have the faster twist barrel...but I really think that the 75gr vmax hit's the magic point for my guns. Cannot wait to get my coyotes with em this year...first snow is today!!!
5368553687I too picked up some of the 70 grain Bltzking's, the ones I got were moly coated. I ran the numbers with Quickload to calculate the barrel time and here is what I got.
eneranch
12-14-2014, 16:11
Just started working with Barrel Times ; what barrel length are you running?
For the 6x45 they are 20 and 24 inch. OBT seemed to be right on for my 7mm 08, factory ammo wouldn't group, then I tried the predicted OBT load and it was amazing. I have been reloading since the mid 70's but this OBT has really got me interested again. Just for grins I ran Buckshotbarlos's load through Quickload and look how close it is to node 4.
53689
buckshotbarlow
12-14-2014, 21:43
ok, so now i'm gonna have to take the bait...nodes = harmonics?
Also, just looked up the info from hodgdon..weird:
53707
buckshotbarlow
12-14-2014, 21:52
Just started working with Barrel Times ; what barrel length are you running?
http://www.shop.blackholeweaponry.com/6x45-caliber-20-length-AR15-6x45-20.htm
Following the options:
53709
I was on midway tonight, looks like the stoner barrels might be coming back in stock...another build might be coming my way...
eneranch
12-15-2014, 05:50
I have the BHW 18" barrel in 6x45; was hoping for sub-MOA loads using 58gr to 75gr bullets, but have been unable to get repeatable results using OCW methods , am turning to OBT to further the cause.
ok, so now i'm gonna have to take the bait...nodes = harmonics?
Also, just looked up the info from hodgdon..weird:
53707
The node is supposed to equate to a minimum disturbance at the crown. A harmonic dilation traveling down the barrel. Imagine a sine wave, the point at which the amplitude passes through 0 (normal) would be the node. Conversely, the point of highest amplitude (Crest or Trough) would be the anti-node. All these nodes are referenced or calculated by the speed of sound through steel.
The node is supposed to equate to a minimum disturbance at the crown. A harmonic dilation traveling down the barrel. Imagine a sine wave, the point at which the amplitude passes through 0 (normal) would be the node. Conversely, the point of highest amplitude (Crest or Trough) would be the anti-node. All these nodes are referenced or calculated by the speed of sound through steel.
That was one explanation of the theoretical, but many ballisticians who study the node theories have moved away from that. Controlling the parameters to that small of a margin are near impossible. There are actually load combinations that result in less total vibration/harmonics than others. There are some theories, but in general, it appears that specific load parameters combined with the chamber geometry, metallurgical occlusions (and other steel defects), barrel temperatures, etc. have a much more significant contribution to the crown having the same orientation w.r.t. POA than either the barrel oscillation or dilatation. The rail gun testing at White Sands produced a large amount of valuable data, but little has made it into the public realm. With the recent switch from magnetic pulse guns to laser as emerging technology, a lot of the traditional ballistics works that has been military funded has ceased. Doubtful we get any more ever. [gohome]
[QUOTE=MarkCO;1795907]That was one explanation of the theoretical, but many ballisticians who study the node theories have moved away from that. Controlling the parameters to that small of a margin are near impossible. There are actually load combinations that result in less total vibration/harmonics than others. There are some theories, but in general, it appears that specific load parameters combined with the chamber geometry, metallurgical occlusions (and other steel defects), barrel temperatures, etc. have a much more significant contribution to the crown having the same orientation w.r.t. POA than either the barrel oscillation or dilatation. The rail gun testing at White Sands produced a large amount of valuable data, but little has made it into the public realm. With the recent switch from magnetic pulse guns to laser as emerging technology, a lot of the traditional ballistics works that has been military funded has ceased. Doubtful we get any more ever. [gohome][/QUOTE
You might be right, all I know is that I have had some consistent success with it.
buckshotbarlow
12-15-2014, 19:33
ok, kewl...thought that's what u meant with that pdf. I dug up my crap, and i'm going to load some .1 gr increments past 26 to 26.5 and see if i can hit it...
ok, kewl...thought that's what u meant with that pdf. I dug up my crap, and i'm going to load some .1 gr increments past 26 to 26.5 and see if i can hit it...
According to my calculations, without knowing you water/mass volume, you are already there.
buckshotbarlow
12-18-2014, 16:45
measured h2o in 5 cases...
32
31
31
30.6
30.7
average was 31.06gr
where in the table it was 31.65 gr. H2O
Ice, can u run the numbers?
eneranch
12-19-2014, 07:52
Gotta get to the range to shoot some loads for my 6x45 shooting 70gr NBTs powered by AA2015, Benchmark, & IMR 4198; going to see if the data generated buy QuickLOAD will work as expected.
This will be the first time I have done load development in the winter, I hope to find a good Coyote load using this bullet.
5389353893I ran the numbers with your average case capacity. As you can see it shows you are right on the targeted node 0.9237. I think any further improvement would have to come by case prep and seating depth.
A better test would be to use a problem rifle, one that doesn't group well and see in OBT improves the grouping. This is what I did with my 7mm-08 and my son's 30.06 and both turned sub moa results.
buckshotbarlow
12-19-2014, 23:06
kewl, thxs Ice...I wanted to see that sw work...I got that load from the ladder method so it proves to me that it works...
I think the real advantage would be in combining it with with a modified ladder for initial load development.
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buckshotbarlow
12-21-2014, 21:11
Ok ran both 6x45's at the range today. Learned something new about BHW barrels...If you clean em, and I mean clean em...they hate it. I had to run about 20 rds down each gun to get enough fouling in the barrel for it to shoot good. Really weird stuff...Here's a pick of each gun, with it's corresponding group of the day, and the amount of patterns these things shot until they started grouping...
Both groups are from my 8208 load...
16" carbine
53979
group of the day from the carbine:
53981
Rifle
53983
Rifle group
53985
The flyers are all my fault...I was under a time crunch. I really think these barrels can shoot. I really want to rebuild that carbine and make it tacticool.
Nice rifles...My brother in-law way telling me yesterday, he is seeing coyotes out at his place in the mid afternoon. He thinks they are coming in for water. I would like to get out there and see if I can't ambush one.
buckshotbarlow
04-19-2015, 08:11
Found some 70gr sierra blitzkings in a garage sale, ended up getting 1k of em and they're moly'd. So, gonna have to run some numbers in quickload to see what it I should start with for true "load accuracy". I loaded up about 20 of em to see how they fit vs's the vmax and I had to seat them deeper than the vmax to get them to fit into the mag. Just need the rain to go away so I can hit the range for testing...
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