Bad Crash at the Reno Air races.

[jerrymrc]

http://www.mynews4.com/content/asseenonnews4/live/default.aspx

Looks like 20 killed and 50 injured. Toll sure to rise. :(

[argonstrom]

A good friend left just 5 minutes before it happened.

[Big Wall]

Absolutely horrible.

[lasinvegas]

The wife and I had a conversation the other night about why I love airshows but refuse to go. It is because several years back it seemed like they were dropping one into the crowd at every other show. She almost had me convinced to start going again until she hear this on the news and called me about it.

[cofi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zusClmg4IQg

looked bad :(

[Half Live]

Looks like just 2 confirmed dead so far and 20 injured

http://www.mynews4.com/news/local/story/BREAKING-2-spectators-and-Pilot-confirmed-dead-in/YXDWyolFZ0SGtz4QsIoZ1A.cspx

[jerrymrc]

78 was the year I went. Growing up I always saw those Champion spark plug posters that had all the winners. Pikes Peak hill Climb, Indy 500 and the Reno air races.... 3 of us drove out from Oregon to watch.

This may be the end.

[TriggerHappy]

I have a good friend that races there every year. He races the Mcdonald racer T-6. Thoughts and prayers go out to the whole Reno Air Race community.

[Mazin]

One of my Iron Mountian drivers goes out every year to this event. Thought and prayers are with everyone involved.

[BPTactical]

Truly unfortunate. Reno Races are on my bucket list.

[lasinvegas]

Truly unfortunate. Reno Races are on my bucket list.


Better save it for last...

just sayin'

[sniper7]

very sad day. part of any sport is accidents, just like football, basketball, baseball, nascar, boat racing, NHRA, etc etc. sadly, aviation is usually a all or nothing event. prayers to the families and victims.

[Elhuero]

this is very bad.

the reports are saying he had a malfunction and rode it in to get as far away from the spectators as he could, otherwise a hundred could have died.

holy crap this is bad.

prayers to all those affected.

[ghettodub]

sad stuff.

amazing though how every news source was posting up something different. I saw stories ranging from "dozens killed" to "75 injuries" to the actual report of 2 confirmed dead.

[Ridge]

this is very bad.

the reports are saying he had a malfunction and rode it in to get as far away from the spectators as he could, otherwise a hundred could have died.

holy crap this is bad.

prayers to all those affected.

Some have said that he lost part of the elevator trim tab. But I don't think that fits well with the plane's movement. He goes into a wide right hand barrel roll and carries it through into the ground. I'm betting heart attack or stroke.

Here is a massive picture of the crash. Lower left corner, there is a guy in a red shirt who is the luckiest SOB on the planet right now.

http://www.wbur.org/files/2011/09/0917_crash.jpg?r

[sniper7]

wow that is an amazing photo ridge. crazy how much damage a small airplane can cause.

[Elhuero]

Some have said that he lost part of the elevator trim tab. But I don't think that fits well with the plane's movement. He goes into a wide right hand barrel roll and carries it through into the ground. I'm betting heart attack or stroke.

Here is a massive picture of the crash. Lower left corner, there is a guy in a red shirt who is the luckiest SOB on the planet right now.

http://www.wbur.org/files/2011/09/0917_crash.jpg?r


true. maybe he was out and didn't know he was going to die, and it was blind luck that kept the crash from killing more.

they'll investigate and figure it out.

on the good side, hopefully this will give more ground to silence the 9/11 truthers screaming "where's the wreckage!!!?"

[Ridge]

on the good side, hopefully this will give more ground to silence the 9/11 truthers screaming "where's the wreckage!!!?"

they'll just point out how much crap is flying from that little plane crash, and why isn't there a mountain's worth from that hollow aluminum can that hit the Pentagon.

Edit:

Looks like the tailwheel is down in this photograph. I wonder if it was a hydraulics issue. Standard P-51s have mechanical controls, but a high speed plane like this would benefit from the extra power and speed of hydraulics...

http://i.imgur.com/zFHcm.jpg

[sniper7]

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Reno-police-say-9-people-killed-in-Reno-air-crash-2175382.php#photo-6

up to 9 people now. 6 on tarmac, pilot, and 2 at the hospital.

[Ridge]

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Reno-police-say-9-people-killed-in-Reno-air-crash-2175382.php#photo-6

up to 9 people now. 6 on tarmac, pilot, and 2 at the hospital.

Technically, the pilot was on the tarmac, too.




















Sorry, too soon.

[sniper7]

Jimmy Leeward was the pilot. 74 years old

http://www.seattlepi.com/mediaManager/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=1605775&width=628&height=471

[Elhuero]

they'll just point out how much crap is flying from that little plane crash, and why isn't there a mountain's worth from that hollow aluminum can that hit the Pentagon.

Edit:

Looks like the tailwheel is down in this photograph. I wonder if it was a hydraulics issue. Standard P-51s have mechanical controls, but a high speed plane like this would benefit from the extra power and speed of hydraulics...

http://i.imgur.com/zFHcm.jpg


yeah, people like that are immune to facts.

I hope it was a mechanical failure, and not a health issue. not that it means anything to the dead, but better for the memory the pilot.

[sniper7]

looks like the engine still had power. I am guessing first a mechanical problem with the controls. not sure how those racing planes are rigged up other than high speed low drag, as light as they can get with as much power as they can get. but the tailwheel should not be down. Possibly fly-by-wire technology in these. I'll do some more research, but that would be the lightest thing for these planes.

second guess is medical problem, but that doesn't explain the tailwheel, so not really too confident in that one.

[jerrymrc]

Looking more like mechanical. There is a report he called a "Mayday" which is standard procedure to call and move outside the racing area.

[Ridge]

^^Elevator trim tab. Used to provide constant force on the surface without the pilot needing to hold the stick off center.

Could that be enough to have sent it into that barrel roll?

[BPTactical]

That was my thought-would loss of a trim tab be enough to cause a catastrophic loss? Aileron yes- trim tab?? Control surface flutter?
I caught a bit of an interview last night of the pilot a couple days prior-he made reference to Friday being a big day and pulling out all the stops or similar.
Maybe a mod that went bad?

Rough summer for 'Stangs and Fortress's.

[Ridge]

That was my thought-would loss of a trim tab be enough to cause a catastrophic loss? Aileron yes- trim tab?? Control surface flutter?
I caught a bit of an interview last night of the pilot a couple days prior-he made reference to Friday being a big day and pulling out all the stops or similar.
Maybe a mod that went bad?

Rough summer for 'Stangs and Fortress's.

If it just broke off, I'd assume he'd abandon the race and make an emergency landing. But if it broke and held on like that, it could cause a lot of drag and uneven force applied to the controls. At the very least it would start a roll.

[Drilldov2.0]

The father of a friend from Military School, the first man who taught me to fly in his Stinson, was 100 feet from where the plane hit. Luckily he survived without a scratch. (Probably a big mental scar though)

[Tweety Bird]

Elevator flutter is my guess, based on that picture of the elevator.

Flutter can rip the controls up and could explain the trim tab separation. Those things do 500 MPH, which is probably 100 more than the original design was engineered for. I'm sure the elevator and ailerons are still covered in fabric and dope and it wouldn't take much imbalance to get things fluttering at that speed.

I got an email that the NTSB is on scene; I can't imagine that they're going to have much evidence left to look through. The video showed the terminal dive and I bet the speed was easily 400 MPH; it was really going fast when it hit.

Godspeed, Jimmy. You were a good one.

[sniper7]

Looking more like mechanical. There is a report he called a "Mayday" which is standard procedure to call and move outside the racing area.


just saw this on the news as well. not good when your trip tab goes. I wonder if there was any contact anywhere with another aircraft.

or possibly hydraulic blow, high pressure could do that (most systems 3000 PSI), then loss of pressure might drop the tail wheel. main gear would probably have mechanical lock ups and would be released with emergency gear extension. so pretty good scenario there.

[sniper7]

That was my thought-would loss of a trim tab be enough to cause a catastrophic loss? Aileron yes- trim tab?? Control surface flutter?
I caught a bit of an interview last night of the pilot a couple days prior-he made reference to Friday being a big day and pulling out all the stops or similar.
Maybe a mod that went bad?

Rough summer for 'Stangs and Fortress's.

no, just a trim tab would not be enough.

With the experience this guy has, I am thinking it has to be total loss of control. he came in almost vertical. complete loss of the controls, with the trim tab in a nose down position.

because if he had any kind of roll control he would have rolled it 90 degrees, kicked in hard rudder and flow it knife edge away from the crowd. obviously everything happens super fast and they are pretty low

[Ridge]

It looks like he went into a right hand barrel roll and came out coming down vertically. Possibly an accelerated stall led to that condition. Pulling back the throttle isn't going to do a damn thing, and if the hydraulics did blow out or the piston hyper extended when the trim tab ripped off, then it could cause low pressure throughout the system, slowing any other control movements.

[Tweety Bird]

Flight controls on a Mustang are not hydraulically powered.

[patrick0685]

im pretty sure that the tail wheel is always down on the P-51's

[sniper7]

Flight controls on a Mustang are not hydraulically powered.


and their wings are also not shortened by 5 feet. there are huge differences between a stock mustang from WW2 and what these guys put together. anything goes. they could be mechanical, they could be hydraulic, they could be electric or a combination. depends on what kind of money they have, what weight savings it gives them and the best control they would get.

[sniper7]

im pretty sure that the tail wheel is always down on the P-51's

no its not. you can see in the crash photos the gear doors are down.
http://images.rcuniverse.com/forum/thumbnails/13719/Ay73466.jpg

here it is normally
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9TZRG7nzmlk/TnSLLUT0XzI/AAAAAAAADsA/D9KYm_xlNWE/s1600/Reno_2010_Galloping_Ghost_Saturday.jpg

[Hoser]

im pretty sure that the tail wheel is always down on the P-51's

The P-51 tail wheel retracts electrically. Too far to run heavy hydraulic lines, even more so in an air racing aircraft.

I have been to the Reno Races many times. I was there in 99 when Gary Levitz (the furniture guy) went in with Miss Ashley II, another P-51.

The Galloping Ghost was one of the coolest racing P-51s out there. Chopped wings, new canopy, ect and no radiator under the belly. Like Rare Bear and Drago Red, it looked fast just sitting there and sounded even cooler burning 3-4,000 gallons per hour of gas at max RPM.

It is a shame to see something like this happen.

I am glad Jimmy was able to at least keep it from hitting the main stands. He was one of the coolest cats out there.

I hope the races continue on, but I would not be surprised if they dont.

[jerrymrc]

I hope the races continue on, but I would not be surprised if they dont.

I hope they do as well. It is one event I would like to go back to. It was on my retirement bucket list.

[Hoser]

I hope they do as well. It is one event I would like to go back to. It was on my retirement bucket list.

I either drive or fly. Always an empty seat avail if I drive.

[rocktot]

There was an F-86 that went in at Broomfield, like 15 years ago. Trying to compete with the F-16s going way too low for this altitude.

Heard you might be able to hitch a ride for gas in the Mig 17 that flys out there.


Looks like there are some body/parts in that photo, but it could be wiring or ???

Nasty. Trim tab flapping around can fudge you up, but this bad? To cause catostrophic failure.

Every air show seems to be a risk nowadays.

[Elhuero]

Every air show seems to be a risk nowadays.


it would be completely asinine for them to end the airshow.

which is why I'm worried they'll do it.

[Drilldov2.0]

it would be completely asinine for them to end the airshow.

which is why I'm worried they'll do it.

Everything is a risk these days, including the govt. with their policies. I say ban govt. altogether. Do it for the children!

[Drilldov2.0]

There was an F-86 that went in at Broomfield, like 15 years ago. Trying to compete with the F-16s going way too low for this altitude.

Heard you might be able to hitch a ride for gas in the Mig 17 that flys out there.


Looks like there are some body/parts in that photo, but it could be wiring or ???

Nasty. Trim tab flapping around can fudge you up, but this bad? To cause catostrophic failure.

Every air show seems to be a risk nowadays.

Umm, No. The f-86 was I believe at Lowry and he couldn't pull out of a loop because of density altitude, not trying to compete with F-16's at low altitude.

Every second of your day is more of a risk than an air show.

[Tweety Bird]

and their wings are also not shortened by 5 feet. there are huge differences between a stock mustang from WW2 and what these guys put together. anything goes. they could be mechanical, they could be hydraulic, they could be electric or a combination. depends on what kind of money they have, what weight savings it gives them and the best control they would get.

You're guessing here. And you're wrong, too. [ROFL1]

If you think a modification to put hydraulic actuators on a P-51 would be a weight-saving effort, I have some wooded beachfront property in Wyoming I'll make you a deal on.

Sure, they're modified airframes; and engines, too. And so are the props. They're RACERS, for shit's sake.

As soon as you find an Unlimited class racer that's modified to run the primary flight controls with hydraulics, send me some pictures or other empirical data. Trust me, when you find it, it's going to be turbine-powered and a whole lot bigger and heavier than a P-51, and at this time, an airplane like that isn't allowed to race in these events.

Until you do find that evidence, just plan on checking back with me when you have 36 years of airplane maintenance experience like I do (including, by the way, some time working on a Mustang).

[Tweety Bird]

There was an F-86 that went in at Broomfield, like 15 years ago. Trying to compete with the F-16s going way too low for this altitude. . .

Yes, it was at Broomfield (Jefferson County Airport at the time).

The Wyphe and I were there that day. It was an awful thing to see, even though he was down below the ridge (that the runway is on) when it happened so I don't think many actually saw it hit. Airplanes had been disappearing behind the ridge and re-appearing further West all day. We all expected this guy to do the same, but there was a large ball of fire instead. I never looked for the official accident report but I think the density altitude got him that day. It was pretty hot and he was trying to do a half Cuban-8 and just didn't have enough altitude to get out of the bottom of it. He was a retired United Airlines pilot.


Umm, No. The f-86 was I believe at Lowry and he couldn't pull out of a loop because of density altitude, not trying to compete with F-16's at low altitude.

Every second of your day is more of a risk than an air show.

Umm, No. There hasn't been any airplane operations at Lowry since the early to mid 1960s or so.

[Drilldov2.0]

Yes, it was at Broomfield (Jefferson County Airport at the time).



There hasn't been any airplane operations at Lowry since the mid 1960s or so.

The Wyphe and I were there that day. It was an awful thing to see, even though he was down below the ridge (that the runway is on) when it happened so I don't think many actually saw it hit. Airplanes had been disappearing behind the ridge and re-appearing further West all day. We all expected this guy to do the same, but there was a large ball of fire instead. I never looked for the official accident report but I think the density altitude got him that day. It was pretty hot and he was trying to do a half Cuban-8 and just didn't have enough altitude to get out of the bottom of it. He was a retired United Airlines pilot.

I went to an airshow at Lowry while I was in High School and it certaintly was not in the 60's. That is not the point however.

You did parrot me in that density altitude was at fault. May have been at Jeffco at the time, but that too is irrelevant to the crash.

But, just for your arrogant attitude. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowry_Air_Force_Base

It's okay 30's years off is good enough for an expert.

[Irving]

There absolutely WAS a jet that crashed into the ground at the Broomfield airshow. You could see the scar in the earth at 104th and Wadsworth Blvd for over a year.

[Drilldov2.0]

There absolutely WAS a jet that crashed into the ground at the Broomfield airshow. You could see the scar in the earth at 104th and Wadsworth Blvd for over a year.

yes there was and it was an f 86 hmm. What's you post count? I mean point?

[Irving]

Drilldov, I've noticed that you've been very ornery tonight.

[frozenmud]

I went to an airshow at Lowry while I was in High School and it certaintly was not in the 60's. That is not the point however.

You did parrot me in that density altitude was at fault. May have been at Jeffco at the time, but that too is irrelevant to the crash.

But, just for your arrogant attitude. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowry_Air_Force_Base

It's okay 30's years off is good enough for an expert.


From the Wiki article...


Flying activities had begun at Lowry in 1938, and through the years, many different aircraft had operated from the airfield, but by the mid-1960s airspace in the Denver area had become so crowded that in 1966 the Air Force directed Lowry to shift all of its flying activities to nearby Buckley Air National Guard Base.

[sniper7]

You're guessing here. And you're wrong, too. [ROFL1]

If you think a modification to put hydraulic actuators on a P-51 would be a weight-saving effort, I have some wooded beachfront property in Wyoming I'll make you a deal on.

Sure, they're modified airframes; and engines, too. And so are the props. They're RACERS, for shit's sake.

As soon as you find an Unlimited class racer that's modified to run the primary flight controls with hydraulics, send me some pictures or other empirical data. Trust me, when you find it, it's going to be turbine-powered and a whole lot bigger and heavier than a P-51, and at this time, an airplane like that isn't allowed to race in these events.

Until you do find that evidence, just plan on checking back with me when you have 36 years of airplane maintenance experience like I do (including, by the way, some time working on a Mustang).

Ill respond when im sober but there is plenty of combinations I put up. Especially for highly modified racers. Maintenance guys have fucked up lots of my planes and tons of my paperwork so your sign off means jack to me unless I look everything over

[Tweety Bird]

Ill respond when im sober but there is plenty of combinations I put up. Especially for highly modified racers. Maintenance guys have fucked up lots of my planes and tons of my paperwork so your sign off means jack to me unless I look everything over

"YOUR" planes? If you're a pilot, I hope you sober up before you strap in. And if you're a pilot who actually understands how "his" airplanes work, you'd realize how silly it is to suggest hydraulic flight controls on a Mustang.

I don't have the patience for dimwits any more.

Lowry was closed as an airfield in the 60s. That is to say, THERE WERE NO MORE AIRCRAFT ACTIVITIES CONDUCTED THERE AFTER THAT POINT. I didn't say that it was closed, only that they didn't fly from there any more. So if you went to an airshow there after the 60s, you were either dreaming or smoking something pretty good.

Next time you post a link, you might want to read ALL of it.

From the wiki article:


Flying activities had begun at Lowry in 1938, and through the years, many different aircraft had operated from the airfield, but by the mid-1960s airspace in the Denver area had become so crowded that in 1966 the Air Force directed Lowry to shift all of its flying activities to nearby Buckley Air National Guard Base.
I couldn't care less if you work on race cars. To even suggest that someone would convert a P-51 to hydraulic flight controls borders on extreme ignorance of this subject. And to suggest "electric" flight controls is even more absurd. It's OK, if you haven't had the training, we can fix that. But please accept the fact that I'm right on this issue, and you, well, are NOT.

[TriggerHappy]

You guys have to remember, the owners and flyers tend to get in on most of the mods and perform test run after test run. I have wrenched on the Mcdonald Racer, they went through 5 props before they found what they liked. The Unlimited class is a bit up for discussion, but they do have to be airworthy and go through inspection prior to race day. They run the bare minimums and for the most part there are 2 or more certified mechanics per team.

For the T-6 class you can only modify certain components, not all. You find primarily all standard flight controls, race engines are used with custom props and EGTs.

As for Lowery, I am much too young and not from CO to remember any of that. Good luck.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/jake82/_JL47932.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/jake82/DSCN0890.jpg

[TriggerHappy]

it would be completely asinine for them to end the airshow.

which is why I'm worried they'll do it.

I think it will just move to another city that wants the revenue.

[TriggerHappy]

Btw, I have about 45 min logged in that bird. She sure is a sweet ride.

[Tweety Bird]

Nice! I assume that's at Centennial?

Do you remember the Stump Jumper? It was a Mustang undergoing a major overhaul/restoration after a mishap at, I think, Akron, CO. I was lucky enough to get to do a little work on it. It was nice to be able to be around it all day and at the end, just brush a little dust off my hands and go home. That was a beautiful machine, too. Don't know what happened to it but by the time they were done with the restoration, it had been sold to someone in CA, I believe.

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51who/81.shtml

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51registry/p51-4463810.html

Next time you fly to the LUFSE waypoint, look to the East and wave at me.

[sniper7]

"YOUR" planes? If you're a pilot, I hope you sober up before you strap in. And if you're a pilot who actually understands how "his" airplanes work, you'd realize how silly it is to suggest hydraulic flight controls on a Mustang.

I don't have the patience for dimwits any more.


First off, you need to drop the personal attacks or name calling. that bullshit is uncalled for.

Yeah I am a pilot and I know more than my fair share about planes considering it is my job. My ass is the one in trouble if YOU or a mechanic fucks up, and there are plenty of them that do screw up and I have to make sure it is done correctly before I go.

As to the hydraulics, you might want to read my WHOLE post like you so adamantly require of drilldov2.0 and attacked him as well. I said it could be a combination of things, could be electric, could be hydraulic, could be a combination. or it could have been the original design. I was making the point that you just don't know what these guys do to modify the aircraft, everything for the controls, the engines, the systems, the avionics etc.

You really need to take a chill pill and not attack people. if thats the case maybe you should take some time off.

[jerrymrc]

Come on guys. I know I started this but be kind. People were lost in this. I WILL kill it.........

[BPTactical]

There was new video released today of the incident with almost a direct underside view of the Mustang as it made the last turn and crashed.
The pilot never had a chance.

[clublights]

There was new video released today of the incident with almost a direct underside view of the Mustang as it made the last turn and crashed.
The pilot never had a chance.

Link please?

[BPTactical]

Link please?

I'm on the Blackberry so I can't link it- Google, Yahoo and the major news outlets all had it yesterday.

[Tweety Bird]

http://www.katu.com/news/local/130198288.html

[SAnd]

A couple of questions for the knowledgeable.

Where did the pilot go? I have seen 2 or 3 pictures of the plane after it started the final maneuvers. I can't see the pilot in any of them. Would the shoulder/lap belts hold the pilot where we could see him if the he was incapacitated? The picture posted here clearly shows his head. It does look like he is sitting lower than in a P-51.

Wouldn't you normally need nose down on the elevator to counter the amount of lift generated by the wings at that speed? The pilot would have set the trim tab to a nose down. Would the pilot be able to push the nose down if he lost the trim tab?

I wonder if he got elevator flutter, either before or after the trim tab came off. The flutter shook the stick disabling the pilot or preventing him from maintaining control or damaging the elevator control system. Flutter vibration could also account for the tailwheel dropping down.

My sympathies to all that lost people.

[Singlestack]

On fox news today (maybe Megan Kelly at noon) they were saying the accident investigators are speculating the pilot's seat came loose/got ripped loose and fell backward into the fuselage!! Yikes! Having seen how cramped a P-51 cockpit is, I don't think there is room to "scrunch down" or bend forward so you couldn't be seen through the canopy. Pretty clear if the seat went back you wouldn't reach the stick or pedals...

Singlestack

[Tweety Bird]

I'm a Fox News fan but it seems strange to me that some "investigator" is actually allowing speculation to get out to the media. I have no doubt that they were told this b

Edit: No idea what happened to the rest of my post. Working through a public WiFi in a hotel causes lots of strange things.

What I was trying to say is that I have no doubt that Fox was told this stuff but I DO doubt that one of the real investigators would be speculating like this to the news media.

It would be hard for me to think the pilot wasn't securely strapped into a custom-fitted seat that was attached very securely to the structure. Anything could happen, I suppose, but a seat coming loose (at least as a CAUSE of the accident) doesn't seem plausible to me.

I suspect there was a mechanical failure due to some hamfisted, inept and dumbass mechanic like me signing it off.

[Ridge]

On fox news today (maybe Megan Kelly at noon) they were saying the accident investigators are speculating the pilot's seat came loose/got ripped loose and fell backward into the fuselage!! Yikes! Having seen how cramped a P-51 cockpit is, I don't think there is room to "scrunch down" or bend forward so you couldn't be seen through the canopy. Pretty clear if the seat went back you wouldn't reach the stick or pedals...

Singlestack

And holding on to the stick when it happened would pull it back, causing an intense climb and then dive...

[Scanker19]

A couple of questions for the knowledgeable.

Where did the pilot go? I have seen 2 or 3 pictures of the plane after it started the final maneuvers. I can't see the pilot in any of them. Would the shoulder/lap belts hold the pilot where we could see him if the he was incapacitated? The picture posted here clearly shows his head. It does look like he is sitting lower than in a P-51.

Wouldn't you normally need nose down on the elevator to counter the amount of lift generated by the wings at that speed? The pilot would have set the trim tab to a nose down. Would the pilot be able to push the nose down if he lost the trim tab?

I wonder if he got elevator flutter, either before or after the trim tab came off. The flutter shook the stick disabling the pilot or preventing him from maintaining control or damaging the elevator control system. Flutter vibration could also account for the tailwheel dropping down.

My sympathies to all that lost people.

I though the same thing when those pictures first came out. I thought they were file pictures at first because of not seeing the pilot.

[Ridge]

From ARFCOM:


A couple of factors about the crash (some of you guys need to work on your aerodaynmics knowledge):

To get maximum airspeed, these airplanes are run at full-aft CG, which is inherently much less controllable than when keeping the CG in the envelope
Breaking of the trim tab would most likely result in the airplane going to full-nose-up trim. He would have had some rudder input as well for his left pattern. Incidentally, this is pretty much how you snap roll an airplane, which is what appears to have happened, unsurprisingly.
3,500 HP.....8,000+ lbs. of airplane.....full aft CG.....he would have had to be able to bench press about 350 lbs., in one second, to get the airplane under control. His age is not a factor. Even you guys who CAN bench that much probably would have failed.
As far as pictures of him 'slumped forward'...under that many G's, he'd be pasted to the back of the seat or, like Bob Hannah, the floor of the airplane. In one of the pictures you can clearly see the canopy with no visible pilot. Most likely he was unconscious.

new video (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2011/09/20/von-reno-air-crash-new.kgw?hpt=hp_t2)


This exact mechanical failure has happened before, with a much luckier result. Read about it happening to Hurricane Bob Hannah here: Voodoo Incident (http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html)

Bob Hannah was an exceptional MX racer and was in superb shape, and very nearly lost his life. He was lucky that his snap roll resulted in a vertical climb instead of a nose down into the ground.


Found out from my brother that they found the telemetry box from the plane. He was told that the plane pulled 22.2 G's@ 500 mph, looped up and slowed to 375 and back to 500 when it hit the ground. 22 G's will kill a person fast!

For those who don't know what a G is, it's the equal of the force of gravity on our planet. If he was pulling 22 Gs, that means that a 200lb man would weigh over 4,000 pounds.

If that information is accurate, his bones probably turned to jelly once that plane pitched up. They also think the G forces broke the pilot's seat, which could have collapsed down and into the back of the plane, pulling the pilot away from the controls and out of view to anyone outside the plane.

But he was most likely dead before even nosed over towards the ground.

[hip55]

That airframe isn't capable of staying together at 22 g's.

It's my guess that the 22 g's was recorded at the time of impact.

[AR_ART]

Thats probably true about the number of "g's" on impact.

When I worked at this one place where we shipped sensitive equipment we had these little devices that were attached to the outside of the shipping box. They were to ensure the boxes weren't mishandled or dropped.

If memory serves me right it said something about 20 g's which i thought was almost impossible to attain if the box was dropped. So, the boss handed me one of those devices and told me to give it a good flick.

I did and it popped. I was amazed that's all it took... So, I'm not surprised they are saying maybe 22 g's going in...



That airframe isn't capable of staying together at 22 g's.

It's my guess that the 22 g's was recorded at the time of impact.