View Full Version : Tula and wolf sticking in my LMT chamber.
colorider
09-30-2011, 18:38
My new LMT upper does not seem to like wolf of Tula steel cased ammo. Brass show just fine. Chamber is 223/5.56 and I'm shootin 223 Tula 62 grain. It won't load the next round. The spent casings are really sticky in the chamber. I can't even put a spent casing back fully into the chamber. It will go a little more then 3/4 way in and then it's extremely tight. Is this something that will quit happening when I get more rounds through it ? It's my 1st AR and I have only put about 80 rounds thru it. Brass cycles just dandy. Thanks for all the help.
BPTactical
09-30-2011, 19:17
Steel cased ammo will stick in an AR. If it has a well made barrel with a snug chamber it will do it more frequently.
There was the mis-information that the lacquer coated cases were the issue and sometimes it was a contributing factor if the chamber was hot. That is why some of the new production steel cased ammo is polymer coated.
Here is why steel cased sticks in an AR:
Brass and steel are two very different metals with entirely different properties. Brass is a very elastic metal and as such is relatively flexible. Steel is much less flexible. When you fire a brass cased round the casing expands (fire forms) to the chamber and as soon as the pressure starts to drop it relaxes some and can begin the extraction phase.
When using steel cased ammo when fired and it fire forms to the chamber it tends to stay expanded and therefore sticks.
The problem is exasperated by an AR chamber being fairly straight walled. An AK chamber is tapered and when the case expands it actually aids extraction by "jacking" the case out of the chamber somewhat.
What about pistols?
Typically pistol chambers are not as tight as rifle chambers and pistol ammo usually does not reach the pressures that rifle ammo does.
You will also find that the Wolf is a much dirtier ammo and carbons up much more. With a GI AR this is important because the bolt and carrier carbon up badly. I have had to work on a couple that were so badly carboned up that the bolt would not slide out of the carrier, it had to be knocked out. The only way they came clean short of a chisel was by soaking it in Berrymans carb cleaner over night. Both had been fed Wolf as a steady diet.
You have a first class rifle in a LMT. It deserves to be fed the good stuff. You and the rifle will be much happier in the long run.
68Charger
09-30-2011, 21:01
I'll second all the comments made by BPTactical- if you want to shoot cheap Wolf ammo, get an AK (they even come in .223), even piston-driven ARs have tighter tolerances, and will tend to stick with steel cases.
AKs have looser tolerances, and were designed for steel-case and dirty ammo. you're not going to typically get AR-like accuracy with wolf, either.
FWIW, I'm doing an AK build in .223, but I still wouldn't use wolf or other steel-case ammo (but I will with 7.62x39 or 5.45x39, both have a tapered case, much more tapered than .223/5.56, and I've never had an issue with Tula or Wolf in 7.62x39)
DeusExMachina
10-01-2011, 01:44
My Sabre barrel shoots steel fine...if it didn't it wouldn't be useful to me. I assume your LMT is chambered in 5.56?
Cheap ammo with issues; imagine that...
sounds like you need to have your chamber reamed there is absolutely no reason your ar shouldnt be eating steel tula wolf(not the old green stuff though) is gtg i shot about 7000 rounds of tula last year through all kinds of ars.....i really feel that if your ar is not eating steel it is barely functioning with brass
Not_A_Llama
10-01-2011, 08:45
If it won't eat wolf, something is wrong with your gun.
I've had too many ARs that were fed a steady and heavy diet of the stuff to believe any of the rubbish about "cheap gas". Gods know I wouldn't have been able to shoot half as much through college if it hadn't been for Wolf.
It sounds like your gun is shortstroking, with it not picking up the next round. To allay concerns about a dirty chamber, I'd suggest a solid chamber scrubout with a variety of solvents. I gather from your description that spent casings are being ejected? I wouldn't worry so much about "sticking" cases, then. You might be undergassed. If you're running a heavier buffer, I'd pop down to a lighter buffer.
Anything further, like chamber reaming or gasport drilling, seems excessive for you, as a customer, to deal with. I'd maybe call LMT to see if they can help - they do have a good customer service reputation. Otherwise, if you intend to shoot Wolf/Tula more, I'm sure there would be a strong market for the upper on our For Sale subforum.
For what it's worth, my recollection is that LMT slightly undersizes their gas ports with a "proprietary" (*snicker*) gasport.
Delfuego
10-01-2011, 09:25
sounds like you need to have your chamber reamed This would likely solve the issue, but at the cost of looser tolerances and losing some of the chrome off your chamber. LMT's have a tight chamber, my Sabre does too and would choke on Wolf, never had a single hiccup with brass, even cheap brass.
Listen to BP, he is the expert....
BPTactical
10-01-2011, 09:28
The rifle aint the problem
68Charger
10-01-2011, 10:21
OP stated it work fine with brass ammo- so it probably has a tight chamber.
If you want to shoot cheap steel stuff, get a different barrel- but don't ream an otherwise good barrel just to shoot the cheap stuff.
Personally, I'd reload before I'd mess with cheap .223
7.62x39 or 5.45, no problem- the surplus 5.45 is even steel case.
Try cleaning the chamber with Glock bore brush with some solvent on it and see if the problem still exists. I run the hell out of my LMT Defender 2000 with Tula, Wolf, Happy Bear ;] Etc Etc. If you have an LMT barrel with a 5.56 chamber you should not be having problems unless its dirty.
The steel cases on the Russian ammo receive lots of blame they do not deserve . If steel cases were an issue do you think that Hornady would have released this line , http://www.hornady.com/store/Steel-Match-new , which is marketed to the action shooters . Reliability is number one in the action shooting sports and if this stuff didn't run it wouldn't be selling . The problem with the Russian ammo is that is typically loaded to less than 223 pressures and this cause cycling issues not the steel cases . The Radway Green surplus BRASS cased ammo fell victim to this also . The Brits couldn't run NATO spec 556 in the SA80's because they were breaking , causing two things there ammo being loaded light for a period and HK overhauling the SA80 system .
soldier-of-the-apocalypse
10-01-2011, 18:59
steel does not expand and contract like brass
BPTactical
10-01-2011, 19:21
[Pop]
So in true internet fashion what somebody else has said is repeated and stupid smiley faces are posted instead of discussion .
If the steel case was the issue why then does Hornady's steel case ammo , 9mm , 40 S&W , 45 ACP , 223/556 in multiple loads , and 308 Win , all run reliably and shoot accurately ? The US military also used steel case ammo during WW2 because of the copper shortages . Nothing was ever said about steel cases having the same metallurgic properties as brass just that it was given a bad name because of other issues with the ammo .
Don't believe the ammo is loaded light shoot some over a chrono sometime and see , the Wolf / Tula especially .
So in true internet fashion what somebody else has said is repeated and stupid smiley faces are posted instead of discussion .
[Coffee]
BPTactical
10-01-2011, 20:03
So in true internet fashion what somebody else has said is repeated and stupid smiley faces are posted instead of discussion .
If the steel case was the issue why then does Hornady's steel case ammo , 9mm , 40 S&W , 45 ACP , 223/556 in multiple loads , and 308 Win , all run reliably and shoot accurately ? The US military also used steel case ammo during WW2 because of the copper shortages . Nothing was ever said about steel cases having the same metallurgic properties as brass just that it was given a bad name because of other issues with the ammo .
Don't believe the ammo is loaded light shoot some over a chrono sometime and see , the Wolf / Tula especially .
Well if they had a tennis match icon I would have used that. Back & Forth.
As I stated in post#2 in this thread pistol ammo is not generating near the pressures .223 and 5.56 are. Not enough oomph to expand the case like a rifle round not to mention most pistol chambers are not nearly as tight nor do they have the surface area that a rifle chamber does. Less surface area = less "stiction".
I dont have a good answer on the .308.
As far as the WWII steel cased ammo we are talking apples to oranges. WWII 30.06 is actually pretty low power stuff. Thats why one does not shoot modern 30.06 in a Garand unless we like peened/sheared bolt lugs and bent/broken operating rods.
Also lets not forget the fact that WWII weapons were battlefield weapons with loose chambers for reliability in combat conditions that were mass produced by the millions.
A far cry from a brand new upper tier precision manufactured barrel such as an LMT.
So in true internet fashion what somebody else has said is repeated and stupid smiley faces are posted instead of discussion .
If the steel case was the issue why then does Hornady's steel case ammo , 9mm , 40 S&W , 45 ACP , 223/556 in multiple loads , and 308 Win , all run reliably and shoot accurately ? The US military also used steel case ammo during WW2 because of the copper shortages . Nothing was ever said about steel cases having the same metallurgic properties as brass just that it was given a bad name because of other issues with the ammo .
Don't believe the ammo is loaded light shoot some over a chrono sometime and see , the Wolf / Tula especially .
This would NOT cause sticking. It might lead to failure to eject, or failure to feed a new round (short stroking), but if a case is STUCK in the chamber, it is either due to the different expansion/contraction/elasticity characteristics of steel vs. brass, excessive pressure (not likely), dirt in the chamber, or incorrectly machined chamber dimensions. Since the rifle in question feeds, fires, and ejects brass cased ammo flawlessly, we can effectively rule out dirt or poor machining. It is very unlikely that commercial ammo is loaded enough in excess of SAAMI specs to cause case sticking, especially since there are no other pressure signs. Following that logic, it's reasonable to deduct that Bert's opinion (as a professional gunsmith and machinist) is probably valid.
Don't believe the ammo is loaded light shoot some over a chrono sometime and see , the Wolf / Tula especially .
Last time I chronographed some Wolf (out of a 14.5" barrel) it was averaging a little over 3100 fps.
This comes from John Paul Gangle , JP Rifles , http://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/scrapbook/steel-case-ammo-john-paul , I think he knows a little about building match rifles . And a 75 gr bullet at 2790 in 223 , http://www.hornady.com/store/223-REM-75-GR-BTHP-STEEL-MATCH/ , is no way at pistol pressures and between my self and about half a dozen other active 3 gun shooters multiple thousands have been shot with no issues in JP , Noveske , Larue , and MSTN rifles all with no issues and moa or better accuracy . The problem isn't the steel case but the light load . Max Pressure on M2 ball , 30/06 , is 60,200 and that isn't exactly pistol pressure either .
BPTactical
10-01-2011, 23:08
While those are pretty ads they do nothing to address the OP's question:
Why is steel cased ammo sticking in the chamber and the brass is not?
Simple metallurgy.
Steel has a higher modulus of elasticity than brass. Meaning for a given thickness it takes more force to deform it than brass of the same thickness.
But the higher modulus means that the given material, in this case steel is much more resistant to returning to its original shape.
In simple terms it causes the case to stick in the chamber more frequently than brass would.
Plastic flow of a material is the property where a given material (steel in this case) is acted upon by outside forces to the point of permanent deformation.
The ammo that you provided links to is fairly low powered-2400 FPS or so and does not have the pressure to cause plastic flow of the steel, which is irreversable.
In simple terms it won't stick the case in the chamber.
Wolf as Ray1970 noted is loaded to a higher pressure which equates to the higher FPS noted in his chronographed results-3100 FPS which is sufficient to cause plastic flow of a steel case.
In simple terms the case sticks in the chamber.
Brass also has lubricity properties whereas steel does not. The steel cased ammo manufacturers have tried numerous means to give steel cased ammo some lubricity i.e. polymer coatings, nickel plating etc.
Again the relatively straight walled chamber of the AR aggrevates the issue.
Easy to visualize with the following:
Driving the front sight pins out on an AR front sight base-some manufacturers utilize roll pins or solid straight pins. They require a constant force to drive them out as the resistance on them is relatively constant.
Taper pins however virtually fall out once broken loose. the same concept applies to a chamber on a rifle i.e. AK tapered chamber v AR straight chamber.
In simple terms running cheap steel cased ammo in a precision manufactured rifle and wondering why there are issues is like owning a Ferrari and running low grade gas and wondering why the engine is detonating.
Good night[Bed]
Byte Stryke
10-01-2011, 23:27
While those are pretty ads they do nothing to address the OP's question:
Why is steel cased ammo sticking in the chamber and the brass is not?
Simple metallurgy.
Steel has a higher modulus of elasticity than brass. Meaning for a given thickness it takes more force to deform it than brass of the same thickness.
But the higher modulus means that the given material, in this case steel is much more resistant to returning to its original shape.
In simple terms it causes the case to stick in the chamber more frequently than brass would.
Plastic flow of a material is the property where a given material (steel in this case) is acted upon by outside forces to the point of permanent deformation.
The ammo that you provided links to is fairly low powered-2400 FPS or so and does not have the pressure to cause plastic flow of the steel, which is irreversable.
In simple terms it won't stick the case in the chamber.
Wolf as Ray1970 noted is loaded to a higher pressure which equates to the higher FPS noted in his chronographed results-3100 FPS which is sufficient to cause plastic flow of a steel case.
In simple terms the case sticks in the chamber.
Brass also has lubricity properties whereas steel does not. The steel cased ammo manufacturers have tried numerous means to give steel cased ammo some lubricity i.e. polymer coatings, nickel plating etc.
Again the relatively straight walled chamber of the AR aggrevates the issue.
Easy to visualize with the following:
Driving the front sight pins out on an AR front sight base-some manufacturers utilize roll pins or solid straight pins. They require a constant force to drive them out as the resistance on them is relatively constant.
Taper pins however virtually fall out once broken loose. the same concept applies to a chamber on a rifle i.e. AK tapered chamber v AR straight chamber.
In simple terms running cheap steel cased ammo in a precision manufactured rifle and wondering why there are issues is like owning a Ferrari and running low grade gas and wondering why the engine is detonating.
Good night[Bed]
well, I'm not Metallurgist or gunsmith... But I did follow Bert's advice and never run steel in a steel chamber.
and I have passed on allot of good deals for .223 steel
something about not running steel on steel kinda made sense.
never have had a FTF or FTE
Probably sitting about 5K rounds...
But hey, he's one of the most trusted Gunsmiths here, what does he know, right?
Rotterdarn
10-02-2011, 00:18
The steel cased ammo manufacturers have tried numerous means to give steel cased ammo some lubricity i.e. polymer coatings, nickel plating etc.
Dunno if I've seen any cheap steel ammo with nickel plating yet....usually that's reserved for plating brass in self defence loads. Probably wouldn't really help bring the price down.
68Charger
10-02-2011, 07:32
I'm sure there are AR barrels out there with chambers loose enough to shoot steel case- if you're dead set on running Tula/Wolf, run one of those. I've heard of brand-new AR barrels that would close on a NO-GO gauge, (but not on a Field)... To further confuse, I don't know if they had .223 or 5.56 gauges: http://ar15barrels.com/data/headspace.pdf
(check out the M249 SAW spec vs 5.56)[Coffee]
If true, I believe these manufacturers are headspacing that loose for reliability (at the expense of some accuracy, and compatability for reloaders- brass will form to the chamber over time) This came as a shock to me, but if you shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber, you're pretty much in that situation already.
I may even try some steel case in my AK when it's finished... Weiger 5.56 barrel, chrome lined- it may be loose enough,depending on where I headspace- I do NOT plan on letting it close on a 5.56 NO-GO gauge, but it may on a .223 NO-GO
Personally, I'd rather buy brass ammo, and reload than steel case and throw away.
Most of this post centered around headspace, but there are more details to how the chamber could be cut that would make steel stick when brass doesn't have an issue.
I've never seen nickel-plated steel personally- copper washed, brass plated, lacquer coated, polymer coated
BPTactical
10-02-2011, 08:21
I was in error on the nickel plate-tired and cranky last night.
My bad.
Chamberings are a contributing factor as well, 223 and Wylde chambers are tighter than a 5.56.
colorider
10-02-2011, 08:34
The LMT is ejecting, but not feeding the next round. Also, the bolt catch is not engaging on the last round in the clip. So it is an obvious short stroke issue. And only with the tula/wolf ammo. When I was at Bowers, he told me that I may have issues With the stuff in an LMT because the LMT is chambered tighter then Others. Btw mine is 223/5.56.
He gave me a bore scrub brush and said to keep it clean. I don't have it with me to clean the chamber as I am camping and it's at home. I will scrub away when I get back and see if if helps.
For the future I will listen to the gunsmiths and fire brass when I run out of this steel stuff. Also , I can't shoot this crap at Blue Core so I'm needing good ammo anyway.
jerrymrc
10-02-2011, 09:51
I was in error on the nickel plate-tired and cranky last night.
My bad.
Chamberings are a contributing factor as well, 223 and Wylde chambers are tighter than a 5.56.
Zinc plated is what is used on silver bear. Both of my AR's and the SAR3 will eat steel cased. I did run about 100 rds through one AR in rapid fashion just to see if it would stick. My reason was just to see if the gun would run the steel cased and it does.
Now that said I load and have some brass factory ammo put away for a rainy day.
I do know that a clean chamber is a must after some trials with a 91/30. Member Splogan tried some steel cased/lacquer coated and it stuck like nobody's business.
My thought on steel cased .223 is this. It is cheap, it is min of man in most guns. It can stick in some guns. In my informal test of 5 brands of cheap .223 the 55gr Silver Bear HP was the best for me.
Just my two cents on the subject.
I have two Stag 5.56 builds that will feed all steel case ammunition with no problems at all.
I have one Olympic 20” 25 year old 5.56 barrel that will not feed steel case ammunition reliably.
The steel case ammunition may or may not feed reliably in the AR platform. If you have an AR that feeds it reliably and you don’t care about the ammunition quality, then shoot it. If your AR doesn’t feed it reliably, then don’t use it.
Not_A_Llama
10-03-2011, 11:33
Out of the generosity of my heart, I will offer to our members here a service to dispose of the nasty, awful, steel-to-steel bareback crap ammo, for a reasonable fee of $0.10/round.
(I'll also buy it off anyone for the same price - PM me. )
DeusExMachina
10-03-2011, 14:05
I also keep my AR in a silk-lined case, made entirely of sabretooth tiger tusk. I would never dare have aluminum to foam, or god forbid nylon, contact.
jerrymrc
10-03-2011, 15:11
I also keep my AR in a silk-lined case, made entirely of sabretooth tiger tusk. I would never dare have aluminum to foam, or god forbid nylon, contact.
Do they make a rifle number sleep case as well. I think mine would like an 80 but my Izzy clone would like a solid 100. [Coffee]
Out of the generosity of my heart, I will offer to our members here a service to dispose of the nasty, awful, steel-to-steel bareback crap ammo, for a reasonable fee of $0.10/round.
(I'll also buy it off anyone for the same price - PM me. )
I bet you'd be more than happy to help under those terms. I would too. =)
I've been getting some enjoyment out of this thread. While I personally don't care to get involved in steel vs brass arguments, I think I'll put my 2 cents in for the sake of the newbies who are watching these discussions and getting even more confused. First off I have a lot of respect for the knowledge our members bring to the table. Some have more gun smithing skills in on finger than I have in my whole body but I do think there is some personal bias clouding the issue. My feelings about steel are my own and based off my own experiences. Your experience may not be the same.
I used to be one of the anti-steel crowd. I would not run it believing it would make my functioning rifle die a horrible death. Besides using ammo that wasn't brass cased was unamerican! Then a trusted smith asked me a simple question: Are my ARs meant to be used as fighting rifles? Where they intended for SHTF? Of course my rifles are meant to be fighting rifles I replied. Then he asked if things really went south, we're talking protracted SHTF, did I think the only ammo I'd ever come across would be shiny domestically produced brass ammo? Or was it more likely in a scarce ammo environment that steel was going to be a common option. And if steel was the more common option, would I be satisfied being armed with a rifle that wouldn't run it. That got me thinking and so I started to use steel.
Several thousand rounds of steel later, run through several ARs from different manufacturers, I learned the following: Steel is fine. It runs fine and has acceptable accuracy. It won't gum up your chamber with lacquer or polymer, but it will make things dirtier. Shooting steel will not magically make your AR explode or reduce it to a mere club. But there are some exceptions:
1) If your rifle is a target or match rifle, if it's designed to shoot small groups or reach out accurately over long distances, don't used steel. Period. Your rifle wasn't designed to ever run anything but high grade brass ammo. Its chamber is tight by design. Feed it the ammo it was definitely designed to use. Tuning it to run steel kind of defeats its intended purpose.
2) If your rifle is a hobby rifle built by one of the lesser manufacturers (I'm not going to get into why brand a is better than brand b), you probably aren't going have good experiences with steel. Your hobby rifle probably has a tight chamber despite what it's marked or what the manufacturer claims. Your extractor is probably not manufactured as well as it should be and your rifle probably has too weak of an extractor spring/insert. Your chamber probably isn't chrome lined. If you shoot just a few hundred rounds a year, just use brass. You'll be happier.
For those who don't fall into the above categories and have an AR whose intended purpose includes SHTF/self defense, here are some things I've learned that makes the use of steel more enjoyable:
1) Not all steel ammo is the same. Wolf and silver bear are generally ok. I hear golden tiger is good too but I've never used it. Tulammo (that crap in a black box with red lettering sold at Walmart and other retailers) is absolute garbage! DO NOT USE Tulammo, ever. If Wolf is the crap of the ammo world, then Tulammo is the steaming bowl of diarrhea. Tulammo is to 223 what thunderbolts are to 22. Just don't use it. If your AR eats Tulammo all day long, good for you. Stock up. But if Tulammo is giving your AR fits, stop using it. Try a better brand of steel.
2) Make sure your chamber is really 5.56. Not .223, not Wylde, not 5.56ish. If you bought your rifle from one of the upper tier manufacturers (BCM, DD, Colt, etc) chances are your chamber is good. Again, this is not brand v brand post. I'm sure your <insert your favorite brand here> works great for you. I'm just relating from my own experiences. If you are in doubt about your chamber dimensions, or you're getting spent cases that are stuck in your chamber, take it to a smith and have them run a reamer through it. No the reamer will not ruin your chamber. The amount of material removed, if any, is small. Fighting rifles are meant to have looser chambers. The small loss of potential accuracy is more than offset by the gain in reliability. Rob at Bowers is a great resource for this.
3) Make sure your extractor is up to snuff. Get the proper spring/insert. Make sure it's really shot-peened and made of the proper tool steel. This is a fighting rifle. Weak extractors kill. Hell, make sure your whole BCG is up to snuff. HPT/MPI, staked, shot peened, working gas rings, etc. This stuff matters in a fighting rifle. Hobby rifle/match rifle, not so much. SHTF, make sure it's right.
4) Wolf is notorious for being underpowered. While some rounds may be fairly hot, on the average it's going to be loaded more like a weaker .223 round than 5.56. If you experience failure to lock back or failure to feed the next round, you may need to use a lighter buffer. This isn't a huge deal. If you need a lighter buffer, get one. They're cheap.
5) Get a chamber brush and use it. You should be doing this even if you're only running brass but especially if you run steel. This stuff tends to be dirty. Clean that chamber well when you get around to cleaning your rifle. Note I didn't say clean it every time you shoot it. That's just a bit OCD.
There's my 2 cents. Getting your rifle to run steel is a worthy goal. Saving $100 per 1k of ammo isn't anything to sneeze at. I can buy 3k of steel for the price of 2k of brass. More rounds = more fun. I like that. Knowing your rifle will run a wider assortment of ammo is also a big plus. Will there always be crap ammo an AR won't run? Of course. Shit is shit whether it be be steel or brass. But not all steel is shit just like not all brass is tits.
DeusExMachina
10-03-2011, 16:04
I shoot Silver Bear 55gr sub-moa in my 14.5" AR. Accuracy is definitely acceptable.
BPTactical
10-03-2011, 16:44
I bet you'd be more than happy to help under those terms. I would too. =)
I've been getting some enjoyment out of this thread. While I personally don't care to get involved in steel vs brass arguments, I think I'll put my 2 cents in for the sake of the newbies who are watching these discussions and getting even more confused. First off I have a lot of respect for the knowledge our members bring to the table. Some have more gun smithing skills in on finger than I have in my whole body but I do think there is some personal bias clouding the issue. My feelings about steel are my own and based off my own experiences. Your experience may not be the same.
I used to be one of the anti-steel crowd. I would not run it believing it would make my functioning rifle die a horrible death. Besides using ammo that wasn't brass cased was unamerican! Then a trusted smith asked me a simple question: Are my ARs meant to be used as fighting rifles? Where they intended for SHTF? Of course my rifles are meant to be fighting rifles I replied. Then he asked if things really went south, we're talking protracted SHTF, did I think the only ammo I'd ever come across would be shiny domestically produced brass ammo? Or was it more likely in a scarce ammo environment that steel was going to be a common option. And if steel was the more common option, would I be satisfied being armed with a rifle that wouldn't run it. That got me thinking and so I started to use steel.
Several thousand rounds of steel later, run through several ARs from different manufacturers, I learned the following: Steel is fine. It runs fine and has acceptable accuracy. It won't gum up your chamber with lacquer or polymer, but it will make things dirtier. Shooting steel will not magically make your AR explode or reduce it to a mere club. But there are some exceptions:
1) If your rifle is a target or match rifle, if it's designed to shoot small groups or reach out accurately over long distances, don't used steel. Period. Your rifle wasn't designed to ever run anything but high grade brass ammo. Its chamber is tight by design. Feed it the ammo it was definitely designed to use. Tuning it to run steel kind of defeats its intended purpose.
2) If your rifle is a hobby rifle built by one of the lesser manufacturers (I'm not going to get into why brand a is better than brand b), you probably aren't going have good experiences with steel. Your hobby rifle probably has a tight chamber despite what it's marked or what the manufacturer claims. Your extractor is probably not manufactured as well as it should be and your rifle probably has too weak of an extractor spring/insert. Your chamber probably isn't chrome lined. If you shoot just a few hundred rounds a year, just use brass. You'll be happier.
For those who don't fall into the above categories and have an AR whose intended purpose includes SHTF/self defense, here are some things I've learned that makes the use of steel more enjoyable:
1) Not all steel ammo is the same. Wolf and silver bear are generally ok. I hear golden tiger is good too but I've never used it. Tulammo (that crap in a black box with red lettering sold at Walmart and other retailers) is absolute garbage! DO NOT USE Tulammo, ever. If Wolf is the crap of the ammo world, then Tulammo is the steaming bowl of diarrhea. Tulammo is to 223 what thunderbolts are to 22. Just don't use it. If your AR eats Tulammo all day long, good for you. Stock up. But if Tulammo is giving your AR fits, stop using it. Try a better brand of steel.
2) Make sure your chamber is really 5.56. Not .223, not Wylde, not 5.56ish. If you bought your rifle from one of the upper tier manufacturers (BCM, DD, Colt, etc) chances are your chamber is good. Again, this is not brand v brand post. I'm sure your <insert your favorite brand here> works great for you. I'm just relating from my own experiences. If you are in doubt about your chamber dimensions, or you're getting spent cases that are stuck in your chamber, take it to a smith and have them run a reamer through it. No the reamer will not ruin your chamber. The amount of material removed, if any, is small. Fighting rifles are meant to have looser chambers. The small loss of potential accuracy is more than offset by the gain in reliability. Rob at Bowers is a great resource for this.
3) Make sure your extractor is up to snuff. Get the proper spring/insert. Make sure it's really shot-peened and made of the proper tool steel. This is a fighting rifle. Weak extractors kill. Hell, make sure your whole BCG is up to snuff. HPT/MPI, staked, shot peened, working gas rings, etc. This stuff matters in a fighting rifle. Hobby rifle/match rifle, not so much. SHTF, make sure it's right.
4) Wolf is notorious for being underpowered. While some rounds may be fairly hot, on the average it's going to be loaded more like a weaker .223 round than 5.56. If you experience failure to lock back or failure to feed the next round, you may need to use a lighter buffer. This isn't a huge deal. If you need a lighter buffer, get one. They're cheap.
5) Get a chamber brush and use it. You should be doing this even if you're only running brass but especially if you run steel. This stuff tends to be dirty. Clean that chamber well when you get around to cleaning your rifle. Note I didn't say clean it every time you shoot it. That's just a bit OCD.
There's my 2 cents. Getting your rifle to run steel is a worthy goal. Saving $100 per 1k of ammo isn't anything to sneeze at. I can buy 3k of steel for the price of 2k of brass. More rounds = more fun. I like that. Knowing your rifle will run a wider assortment of ammo is also a big plus. Will there always be crap ammo an AR won't run? Of course. Shit is shit whether it be be steel or brass. But not all steel is shit just like not all brass is tits.
Well said Mutt
I will be the first to admit I am quite biased towards steel in an AR. I have seen it cause more issues than it is worth IMO.
[Beer]
hghclsswhitetrsh
10-03-2011, 17:05
I broke in my AR this weekend! Yes! I did what the manufacturer recommended, I ran 100 brass shells through it. Then I ran 400 more brass. Then I decided since I have 1000 rounds of this "evil" steel ammunition I would try a few rounds and see what it does. I ran 30 through it, then 30 more, then 30 more, and before you know it I had 500 rounds of the "evil" steel blasted through it. Never failed never jammed and I couldn't see the difference in accuracy.
I called Stag two days after I bought my rifle and asked what they thought about steel casings. Their exact words - it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. So I hung up and thought about it. My first thought is sure I destroy all these components and before you know I am replacing the parts or the rifle - good for the manufacturer. Then my second thought - if they knew it would destroy my rifle they would tell me because they aren't buying the ammo. If the gun started the fail due to ammunition the manufacturer of the gun would more than likely get the blame. Anyways there is my 2 cents and unorganized thoughts and opinions.
I also misunderstood the OP's description of the problem. Waht he's seeing is not actual sticking, it's failure to extract/eject/feed a new round. Definitely short stroking. So, entirely possible that it's underloaded ammo (compared to commercial stuff). Mea Culpa. [Beer]
Bailey Guns
10-03-2011, 18:09
OK...I couldn't resist throwing my opinions into the mix.
I've shot countless thousands (50k plus, maybe?) of rounds of Wolf, Bear, etc... steel-cased ammo through my Sabre Defence and Colt ARs. I've not experienced any greater rate of failure with steel than I have with brass (then again, I can probably count the failures on one hand...definitely can with the Sabre). I've never broken an extractor. Never. And I don't add D-rings or anything else to them. It ain't broke so I don't fix it.
I'm also not the type to shoot 20 rounds through a gun and clean it to inspection order. I'll shoot several hundred or a thousand through it before cleaning. I generally shoot several hundred rounds in a session. I've also never been concerned about mixing ammo (steel and brass) in a session. I don't abuse my guns but I don't baby them, either.
The Sabre is far and away the best AR I've ever owned and it's pretty much stock except for the EoTech I have on it and the RRA Operator stock. I've owned LMT, LWRC, Colt and several other brands. Hands down the Sabre is the most reliable, the best finished and the most accurate.
I, too, agree with others who've stated they won't own an AR if it doesn't shoot steel. I feel there's a tremendous supply of it and it just makes sense to have a gun that will shoot it. If you'll recall, the Wolf and other steel .223/5.56 ammo was available in 08 and 09 when other stuff wasn't. Reason enough for me to have a gun that will shoot steel.
I also only keep handguns that will reliably shoot steel. All 3 of my main carry guns (Kimber Ultra Carry, Glock 19 and Kel-Tec PF9) reliably shoot Wolf or other steel ammo and have suffered no ill effects.
I gave my son a Kimber Warrior that shoots Wolf like it was match-grade ammo.
Yes, the imported steel stuff shoots very dirty. So what? Maintain your gun as needed and this isn't an issue. Guns get dirty.
At one time (maybe they still do) Bushmaster included a little, orange card with all their ARs that stated their guns were test-fired with certain steel ammo and it worked fine.
I know others have had differing experiences...so be it. I've used ARs on duty for many years in the military and as an LEO. Also sold and maintained them for many years. Definitely not a noob but not as knowledgeable as some others, either.
But I do know what works in mine.
YMMV.
CMP_5.56
10-03-2011, 19:29
Dunno if I've seen any cheap steel ammo with nickel plating yet....usually that's reserved for plating brass in self defence loads. Probably wouldn't really help bring the price down.
I'm side you have seen silver bear ammo. Steel cases, nickel plating. And they are pretty cheap.
Edit: I have seen silver bear advertised ad nickel plated, as well ad zinc plated. I have no idea which is true, could be both. I know my stag has eaten all ammo I've ever fed it. I'm lucky that way.
colorider
10-04-2011, 08:53
The reason mine is short stoking is because the bolt is spending all it's e energy pulling the stuck casing out of the chamber. I had 2 casings of the steel tula that needed to be hand extracted.
The reason mine is short stoking is because the bolt is spending all it's e energy pulling the stuck casing out of the chamber. I had 2 casings of the steel tula that needed to be hand extracted.
Did you have to " mortar " the rifle to get the cases out or just cycle the action ? Was the rim on the case head damaged ? If not have someone watch the ejection port when firing and I suspect what happened was the bolt only cycled partially and loaded the fired case back into the chamber .
As far as ever stated from LMT all there chambers are the mil spec 5.56 and as such not a tight chamber , one of there selling points see the infamous chart .
Sure is amazing that the next guy that Say's that Wolf is famous for being under powered received a different response .
colorider
10-04-2011, 16:42
In a nutshell, I'm not shooting the Tula in my AR anymore expecting satisfactory results.
I'm not going to have my chamber reamed just to shoot cheap steel. I'm following Bp tactical's advice and wisdom.
With thy said , anybody wan to buy 400 rounds of Tula 62 gr ?
68Charger
10-04-2011, 18:26
throw an ad in the Trading Post section... I'm sure someone will buy it for the right price...
if you haven't already, read the rules & acknowledge them in the trading post...
VNgunfighter
10-05-2011, 13:19
I don't see how steel cased ammo can hurt your barrel, or chamber-I have shot loads of it, and all of it out of a match chambers.
I can say this s,that most of all the shooters in the top 25% in RM3G 2011 shot steel cased ammo out of match chambers (JP, Larue, and a few other custom builds) they did obviously well. So if this ammo can run out of a Match chamber, and run reliably, I do not see an issue with it.
It shoots MOA out if my 18" gun, no malfunctions.
colorider
10-05-2011, 14:51
Using my Google Fu I see all kinds of people having issues with the Tula brand ammo.
So maybe its isolated to that brand.. I can tell that the steel vs brass debate is just like the What oil to use in my motorcycle debate with motorcycle owners.
Wish I could shoot it, but my gun and others simply does not fire well with it.
When I was at Bowers before I had even fired the gun for the 1st time he said there is a good chance I would have problems with it in an LMT barrel.
Anyway, Im choosing to shoot brass and maybe another better brand of steel if I can find one that is going to load and eject on a constant basis like brass, and also not be so damn dirty. The Tula made a mess in my chamber.. Live and learn. Each gun is different so what works for one may not work for another. That is what some seasoned experts have expressed and I am going with it.
Rotterdarn
10-06-2011, 00:49
I'm side you have seen silver bear ammo. Steel cases, nickel plating. And they are pretty cheap.
Edit: I have seen silver bear advertised ad nickel plated, as well ad zinc plated. I have no idea which is true, could be both. I know my stag has eaten all ammo I've ever fed it. I'm lucky that way.
Definitely zinc. The 500 round boxes from Barnaul have 4 check boxes for the options they make...zinc, brass, lacquer, polymer. If you hold one of the zinc plated next to nickel plated you can tell the difference right away.
In a nutshell, I'm not shooting the Tula in my AR anymore expecting satisfactory results.
I'm not going to have my chamber reamed just to shoot cheap steel. I'm following Bp tactical's advice and wisdom.
With thy said , anybody wan to buy 400 rounds of Tula 62 gr ?
ill take it off your hands....@4$ a box
Accurate guns but the bolt and chamber tolerances are far too tight. Put a rock river bolt in it. That's what I had to do
colorider
11-02-2011, 22:09
Only change I am going to make is to stop shooting the wolf and Tulammo.
I have not had 1 problem using any brass ammo. Also, The Tula and wolf was filthy dirty to shoot and did not enjoy the cleaning job. Anyway, I spent good time and money on my LMT build and am going to feed it the brass ammo.
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