View Full Version : NFA Trust
Need a little help, I'm going to have some extra money at the of the month. Was wondering if
I could get some referrals on NFA Trust Lawyers in the Denver/Aurora area or in Colorado.
Save the money and do it yourself. I made my trust and had no issues getting the stamp for my suppressor. Lawyers will always try and scare you into giving them money.
stevelkinevil
10-05-2011, 21:24
Im still unclear of the reason for a trust, would like to know as I am hoping to get a suppressor in the future now that I have the FNP tactical.
A trust is effectively a legal box that I can put property into and I can control who has access to said property. With a trust you avoid having to get a CLEO signature as well as fingerprints. Also, I can add people into the trust wording so they too can possess my trust's NFA toys (as a military guy that can be handy should I move somewhere that isn't NFA friendly).
Seamonkey
10-06-2011, 06:10
A trust is effectively a legal box that I can put property into and I can control who has access to said property. With a trust you avoid having to get a CLEO signature as well as fingerprints. Also, I can add people into the trust wording so they too can possess my trust's NFA toys (as a military guy that can be handy should I move somewhere that isn't NFA friendly).
+1
Some people live in an area where they can't get the LEO signature so a LLC or trust is a better option.
Personally I went trust due to the ability to add people to the trust. Then I can store an item in that person's safe while I'm OCONUS or something.
PM sent on the lawyer I used
SA Friday
11-05-2011, 15:55
If you want the name of a lawyer who will do a trust for your class 3 goodies, send me a PM and I'll point you in the right direction.
I would, especially if he's in our area. Shoot it to me please.
I went the LLC route because I thought I could just print a letterhead giving persons permission to have possession of the toys. Was that an owner only thing?
I have some goodies as an individual, how hard would it be to move these to a trust?
Not trying to hijack OPs thread but didn't want to start a new "NFA Trust" topic.
-J
Wife and I recently went to a free seminar about Trusts and Wills, very informative and well-worth the effort! Wills are basically useless, but Trusts come in many forms and can be set up in different ways to make your assets nearly bulletproof. I don't know how NFA weapons are put into trusts though, they didn't cover that.
+1
Some people live in an area where they can't get the LEO signature so a LLC or trust is a better option.
Personally I went trust due to the ability to add people to the trust. Then I can store an item in that person's safe while I'm OCONUS or something.
PM sent on the lawyer I used
legally, you can store an nfa item in a friend's safe, if it's in a locked case and your friend does not have the key. copy of the stamp must stay with the item.
A trust is the same as a person. You transfer NFA items to a trust the same as an individual. Anything a person can do a trust can do.
You fill out the ATF Form with the trust's name as the person aquiring the item. Instead of a person's name you put the name of the trust. A trustee of the trust will sign the paperwork for the trust. The trustee doesn't have to do the CLEO signoff stuff that goes with a Form.
You will have to pay a transfer tax to move something into a trust if you already own the NFA item. Same thing if you're moving something out of a trust to you as an individual.
Not trying to hi-jack the thread either, but does anyone who has a trust set up for NFA items know what I would have to do as far as taxes. I mean, would I have to file something with the IRS annually? Please shoot me a PM if you know. I live in an area where the CLEOs won't sign off and am not in a position where I can relocate to a friendlier area. Thanks.
The trust doesn't have to file a tax return.
If i want to try and set one up myself, how would i go about doing that, is there a particular site that is used more than others?
If i want to try and set one up myself, how would i go about doing that, is there a particular site that is used more than others?
you need to purchase quicken will maker or some other legal/trust forming software in order to make your own unless you know the language to write it your self, i will caution you from using one, just my opinion when it comes to these types of items i prefer to make sure its right. however people have been successful setting it up on there own.
i used a lawyer up in grand junction contact info below, before the GC2012 her information was posted for the masses i believe in this post, but it was lost. when i set mine up in January she was running a special for CO-AR members for 350.00 to set up the trust.
http://www.puglieselawfirm.com/default.html
Law Office of Rose F. Pugliese, LLC
300 Main Street, Suite 301
Grand Junction, Colorado 81501
(970) 589-3755
(800) 748-9389 fax
rose@puglieselawfirm.com
SideShow Bob
06-25-2012, 21:33
On the trust subject, after the trust is formed, can more items be added to it ?
I understand that the tax stamp must be paid for each item. Is a trust needed for each item ?
Or is it like a special box once formed, you can throw all the goodies that you can afford into ?
kidicarus13
06-25-2012, 21:37
If Rose still does trusts for $350 let me know, I'll have to scrounge up some extra $
On the trust subject, after the trust is formed, can more items be added to it ?
I understand that the tax stamp must be paid for each item. Is a trust needed for each item ?
Or is it like a special box once formed, you can throw all the goodies that you can afford into ?
You can easily add and remove items from the trust. Some trusts you simply add items to the Schedule A, on others there's a form you fill out. Both approaches accomplish the same thing.
In fact, when you send in your first Form 1 or 4, for example, the taxable item is NOT listed on the trust (the trust cannot posses it yet). But the trust MUST be funded in order for it to be a legal document (the ATF will bounce the app if it isn't). My first item was a $1 bill, with the serial number listed. It's sitting in my safe deposit box. If I had thought of it, I would have funded it with a $2 bill!
O2
On the trust subject, after the trust is formed, can more items be added to it ?
I understand that the tax stamp must be paid for each item. Is a trust needed for each item ?
Or is it like a special box once formed, you can throw all the goodies that you can afford into ?
yes, trusts can hold multiple items no need to set one up every time you decided to buy or make a registered NFA item.
kidicarus13
07-12-2012, 10:59
you need to purchase quicken will maker or some other legal/trust forming software in order to make your own unless you know the language to write it your self, i will caution you from using one, just my opinion when it comes to these types of items i prefer to make sure its right. however people have been successful setting it up on there own.
i used a lawyer up in grand junction contact info below, before the GC2012 her information was posted for the masses i believe in this post, but it was lost. when i set mine up in January she was running a special for CO-AR members for 350.00 to set up the trust.
http://www.puglieselawfirm.com/default.html
Law Office of Rose F. Pugliese, LLC
300 Main Street, Suite 301
Grand Junction, Colorado 81501
(970) 589-3755
(800) 748-9389 fax
rose@puglieselawfirm.com
Tried contacting, no response.
Tried contacting, no response.
just emailed her as i need an amendment will let you know if i hear from her as well if not ill call her.
will let her know that people are trying to contact her for a trust when i get a hold of her!
This is who did my NFA trust:
Usiak Law Firm
Daniel K. Usiak, Jr
128 South Tejon St, Suite 202
Colorado Springs, CO 80903
719-955-0143
http://www.usiaklaw.com/
Whoever does your trust, read it very carefully and make sure you understand everything it does and assure that it does what you want it to do. Any kind of trust should take care of three conditions: You're alive and healthy, you're alive but not healthy and unable to make decisions yourself and you're dead.
Make sure all three conditions are covered and the trust operates the way you want it to in all three states.
I'm a big beleiver in "less is more" and I kept mine very simple -- all my trustees are peers and have control over the trust, and the only people I put on the trust I, well, trust to do the right thing. Of course being older I have the advantage of long-time friends (30+ years) that I trust implicitly. It would be more difficult if I were younger and my friends were more transient.
O2
Tried contacting, no response.
Just got in touch with her she was gone on vacation just got back! Give her a call again! Or email again!
ANADRILL
07-28-2012, 19:59
Rose did mine. Really easy to deal with...
mahabali
07-29-2012, 11:18
Rose did mine. Really easy to deal with...
She did mine as well.
Citizen_Soldier
12-09-2012, 23:51
Not to threadjack, but does anyone know if these mentioned lawyers would work for creating a trust in Wyoming? Should I try to find someone in-state to do it?
spqrzilla
12-10-2012, 00:09
Not to threadjack, but does anyone know if these mentioned lawyers would work for creating a trust in Wyoming? Should I try to find someone in-state to do it?
You will have to ask them if they are members of the Wyoming bar.
Citizen_Soldier
12-10-2012, 01:16
You will have to ask them if they are members of the Wyoming bar.
Alright thanks for the info. I don't know too much about lawyers and trusts. I've read enough to realize I probably don't want to cheap out and go the Quicken route. My local Sheriff has no problem signing ATF forms, I have a suppressor on it's way, but it would be nice to have a trust. I plan on doing 2 SBR builds very soon and I'm sure I'll get more cans down the road.
spqrzilla
12-10-2012, 16:50
Alright thanks for the info. I don't know too much about lawyers and trusts. I've read enough to realize I probably don't want to cheap out and go the Quicken route. My local Sheriff has no problem signing ATF forms, I have a suppressor on it's way, but it would be nice to have a trust. I plan on doing 2 SBR builds very soon and I'm sure I'll get more cans down the road.
There are a few advantages to a trust even when the Sheriff will sign off on NFA, but its up to you.
I definitely don't think Quicken trusts are a good idea, least of all for NFA.
People who try to save $500 on a trust when they have already decided to play in the expensive NFA arena baffle me. If you are sensitive to costs, don't play with toys that cost a $200 transfer tax each to begin with.
bigmyk2k
12-12-2012, 13:38
Probably a question for the lawyers, but does anyone know if a trust works with trustees in multiple states? Ie. If trust is formed in CO, can I also add someone from KS, or MO?
I just used Rodney Woodard. Sent questionnaire last night, got the NFA trust documents this morning. Very professional and helpful. For $300, a pretty darn good value!
Rodney W. Woodard
Attorney at Law
Loveland, Colorado 80538
(970)667-4848
(240)235-8748 fax
Rodney@WoodardLaw.com
Probably a question for the lawyers, but does anyone know if a trust works with trustees in multiple states? Ie. If trust is formed in CO, can I also add someone from KS, or MO?
The guy to ask is Rodney Woodard, the attorney who just setup my NFA trust.
Rodney W. Woodard
Attorney at Law
Loveland, Colorado 80538
(970)667-4848
(240)235-8748 fax
Rodney@WoodardLaw.com (Rodney@WoodardLaw.com)
NFATrustGuy
03-21-2013, 18:29
Thanks for the kind words, JVC. Thanks also for your business.
@bigmyk2k: The short answer is YES.
Rod
NFAtrustguy, I will email you more details later but I am interested in setting up a NFA trust and would like some help. It is going to be at some point over the summer because I am in the middle of refinancing my house as well as other financial commitments. But I wanted to say that I think that it is great to see you on here and contributing around the forum. Thanks and your legal expertise will be a welcome contribution around here where is seem a legal question arises about every 10 minutes or so.
SA Friday
03-24-2013, 14:09
I did find a guy in the Denver metro area doing NFA trusts, Chris Hornbaker. He is doing a trust seminar at Grand Prix Guns on 13 April.
NFATrustGuy
03-24-2013, 17:50
Chris Hornbaker is listed as a paralegal on a Denver firm's website. He also doesn't show up as a registered attorney on the Colorado Supreme Court's website. They are the regulatory body for attorneys in Colorado.
Paralegals can do everyone attorneys can do--except give legal advice to clients.
Rod
SA Friday
03-24-2013, 18:02
Chris Hornbaker is listed as a paralegal on a Denver firm's website. He also doesn't show up as a registered attorney on the Colorado Supreme Court's website. They are the regulatory body for attorneys in Colorado.
Paralegals can do everyone attorneys can do--except give legal advice to clients.
Rod
You are correct on all accounts. He is the primary contact for the "Denver firm" for NFA trusts and gathers the pertinent info to complete the paperwork.
But I get what you're saying... Seminar is probably the wrong term.
NFATrustGuy
03-24-2013, 18:15
@Danimal: Thanks for your interest. I look forward to hearing from you.
I enjoy participating in this group. Sometimes time commitments limit just how much I can post, but I try to jump in when I can. I'm hoping to put together an analysis of the most recent Colorado legislation in the very near future. It'll probably be several pages long so I'll have to re-read the forum rules re: length of posts and/or whether a link to a PDF is preferable. It'll be in the Legislation & Politics section.
Rod
kidicarus13
03-24-2013, 18:21
@Danimal: Thanks for your interest. I look forward to hearing from you.
I enjoy participating in this group. Sometimes time commitments limit just how much I can post, but I try to jump in when I can. I'm hoping to put together an analysis of the most recent Colorado legislation in the very near future. It'll probably be several pages long so I'll have to re-read the forum rules re: length of posts and/or whether a link to a PDF is preferable. It'll be in the Legislation & Politics section.
Rod
Put on a local seminar? Bet you'd get quite a few people to attend, including me.
SA Friday
03-24-2013, 18:23
@Danimal: Thanks for your interest. I look forward to hearing from you.
I enjoy participating in this group. Sometimes time commitments limit just how much I can post, but I try to jump in when I can. I'm hoping to put together an analysis of the most recent Colorado legislation in the very near future. It'll probably be several pages long so I'll have to re-read the forum rules re: length of posts and/or whether a link to a PDF is preferable. It'll be in the Legislation & Politics section.
Rod
Don't worry about length. If you want it posted, we will make it fit.
BladesNBarrels
03-26-2013, 11:59
Are there advantages of using a Trust versus an LLC to own the Class III firearms?
Does a Trust provide any liability protection if someone is injured while shooting a Class III that is owned by the Trust?
Thanks!
Great-Kazoo
03-26-2013, 13:04
Are there advantages of using a Trust versus an LLC to own the Class III firearms?
Does a Trust provide any liability protection if someone is injured while shooting a Class III that is owned by the Trust?
Thanks!
No it does not. What it does is enable family and or friends to have access / be in possession of an NFA item. The trust allows you to do an APPOINTMENT OF CO-TRUSTEE
The LLC is just that Limited.Does the LLC allow for Appointment of Trustee and Resignation of?
IMHO, Anyone that handles or operates my firearms, knows or should be aware of any potential danger of said firearm. Be it NFA or a simple bolt action.
Why concern over a NFA item and not any firearm? BTW they are Title II / NFA , Class 3 is the FFL designation.
BladesNBarrels
03-27-2013, 08:53
Thank you for the response.
If I want to add users or owners of a Title II/NFA firearm in an LLC, can't I just grant them a share or shares?
I could retain control by ensuring that I own more than 50% of the shares.
Any firearm has the risk of potential danger. I have attended "50 Caliber/Machine Gun Shoots" where accidental injuries have occured.
Wouldn't an LLC provide some protection from potential liablility for the accidents by limiting any damages to the extent of the assets of the LLC?
Thanks.
Great-Kazoo
03-27-2013, 10:58
Thank you for the response.
If I want to add users or owners of a Title II/NFA firearm in an LLC, can't I just grant them a share or shares?
I could retain control by ensuring that I own more than 50% of the shares.
Any firearm has the risk of potential danger. I have attended "50 Caliber/Machine Gun Shoots" where accidental injuries have occured.
Wouldn't an LLC provide some protection from potential liablility for the accidents by limiting any damages to the extent of the assets of the LLC?
Thanks.
Only addressing Liability
If you have that much of a concern. Never let anyone shoot any firearm you own.
IMHO, The only release of liability i would have signatures on, would be IF i was to manufacture a firearm, then have people shoot it. Considering that item is a product of your design / build. Every other firearm has been torture tested etc prior to hitting the market.
Unless you were manufacturing AMMO / reloads for sale. That should already have ins coverage on.
NFATrustGuy
03-27-2013, 13:48
Liability protection from any choice of corporate entity is somewhat limited with regard to very closely-held corporations.
In the scenario you presented, you could still be held liable on a personal basis even if you were acting on behalf of the corporation. The example I sometimes use is that the fry guy at McDonalds would be liable if he spilled a vat of boiling oil on a customer--even though he's working for a corporation. The reason the customer probably wouldn't sue the fry guy is that, well, he's a fry guy at McDonald's so he probably doesn't have any assets.
The benefit of running a business as some type of corporate entity rather than a sole proprietorship is that you're not personally liable for the acts of your co-owners and you're [usually] not [U]personally liable for the acts of your employees. The [usually] is necessary because there are exceptions, but they're not really relevant to this discussion.
In your example, if you're the majority owner of the LLC and you're the one who lends a gun owned by the LLC... and somebody gets hurt with the LLC's gun, then if someone starts flinging lawsuits around, you're going to be sued as an individual based on some theory of negligence AND the LLC is going to be sued because it owns the gun AND because the LLC entrusted the gun to YOU--who are obviously :-) not capable of fulfilling your role as a representative of the LLC in a safe manner. <<--that last bit was sarcasm to a point--but that's what the lawsuit would say!
There are a lot of misconceptions concerning exactly how effective LLC's or corporations can be for a closely-held business. Sometimes, it's entirely appropriate. Sometimes it provides a false sense of security.
And for what it's worth... I did spend at least one night at a Holiday Inn over the last 3 days!
Aloha_Shooter
04-02-2013, 13:47
I already have a couple of revocable living trusts with property registered. Out of curiousity, what is different in the NFA trust?
NFATrustGuy
04-02-2013, 19:13
I already have a couple of revocable living trusts with property registered. Out of curiousity, what is different in the NFA trust?
It depends. There isn't one single version of a regular living trust.
A few specific provisions I think should be included in any gun trust:
1. Ability to add/remove co-trustees without going back to the lawyer and without making major revisions to the trust.
2. Provision for the trust to continue in perpetuity at the discretion of the acting trustee.
3. Protections to make sure "prohibited people" don't become trustees and, if beneficiaries are prohibited people, for the assets to be held by the trustee or sold with the proceeds (money) distributed to the prohibited people instead of the NFA-regulated item.
4. Specific authority to add assets to the trust--without significant modifications--and without having to go back to the lawyer.
These are just a few that I can think of off the top of my head.
Rod
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