View Full Version : 4 Season vs winter and summer carry
Just wondering what percentage of you all change out your CCW to a larger frame or caliber in the winter. It's so easy and comfortable to stick with the compact frame platform. Even when it gets cold and a larger frame is easier to conceal and the extra firepower may be more effective vs goblins with thick winter coats, I often opt for the "summer wear" even when its cold....How bout u guys.
nogaroheli
10-09-2011, 20:18
I almost always go for bigger framed guns to carry. Only when it's super hot and I'm just wearing a t-shirt or polo do I go for the smaller stuff like my LCR.
mcantar18c
10-09-2011, 20:21
If you have a good method of carry, you shouldn't need to change it up. If you're summer carry style doesn't work well in winter and/or vice versa, you might want to review some things.
Also, any of the big 3 (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP) will penetrate winter coats just fine. Which one is best has been debated over and over already.
Eggysrun
10-09-2011, 20:31
i carry my HK45 all seasons.
Zundfolge
10-09-2011, 20:35
I don't change guns by season, but I do alternate between larger and smaller guns based on how I'm going to be dressed (and sometimes just by mood).
blacklabel
10-09-2011, 20:37
I'll occasionally carry my 1911 when I know I'll be wearing a coat and I don't have to worry near as much about printing.
Mcantar, agree...if the rig isn't easy, effective, and comfortable to carry, access, and conceal, you need another method regardless of the season. I'm very happy with my carry setups, but do have an occasional issue with the grip digging into my back when I drive with a full frame vs compact.
Nogaraheli, I've got one of your IWB holsters for my SW99 40 cal. Very nice, carries and conceals well...Have recommended your holsters to friends of mine. I know at least one has bought one and is happy with it.
obawon
DANGERTASTIC!
10-09-2011, 20:53
I was just talking about this the other day.
I carry the G17 in the summer and the M&P in the winter.
I like the .40 anytime, but I want something bigger for penetration of more layers, heavy clothing etc
mcantar18c
10-09-2011, 21:16
Mcantar, agree...if the rig isn't easy, effective, and comfortable to carry, access, and conceal, you need another method regardless of the season. I'm very happy with my carry setups, but do have an occasional issue with the grip digging into my back when I drive with a full frame vs compact.
Nogaraheli, I've got one of your IWB holsters for my SW99 40 cal. Very nice, carries and conceals well...Have recommended your holsters to friends of mine. I know at least one has bought one and is happy with it.
obawon
Try AIWB. Much more comfortable, much more easily concealable, much more difficult for someone to accidentally touch (like if they hug you, for instance), much more difficult for someone to take. And no "grip digging into your back" issues... though while you're adjusting your new setup to figure out how to make it perfectly fit you, you may have some "barrel pinching your man bits" issues.
I was just talking about this the other day.
I carry the G17 in the summer and the M&P in the winter.
I like the .40 anytime, but I want something bigger for penetration of more layers, heavy clothing etc
Take some old winter clothes (or pick some up from a thrift store)... heavy jackets, leather, down, etc.... and put them in from of some water jugs. You might be surprised at how well the .40 performs.
I'll usually only alternate from iwb to owb. At times if I only have to make a quick run down the street and I'm feeling lazy I'll just throw on a hoodie and a paddle holster.
Take some old winter clothes (or pick some up from a thrift store)... heavy jackets, leather, down, etc.... and put them in from of some water jugs. You might be surprised at how well the .40 performs.
That's exactly why I do 9mm [Pop]
mcantar18c
10-09-2011, 21:50
That's exactly why I do 9mm [Pop]
Me too [Beer]
But he was talking about the .40, and I didn't want to add anything about the 9mm performing about the same as the .40 (and the .45) and start another caliber war.
Yeah, but a Glock 17 is a 9mm, so I assume he meant that he likes to carry his .40 any time, but prefers it in the winter for the heavier clothing.
I like the idea of AIWB, but can't get it to work comfortably (especially while driving). Maybe I'll give it another shot. I have to work in dress clothes with shirt tucked in though, so if it makes me look like I've got a peen tumor, it's a no-go.
mcantar18c
10-09-2011, 22:15
I took it as a separate statement from the G17 bit.
With AIWB, the holster makes a HUGE difference (moreso than with other carry positions, since its a pretty sensitive area). The most comfortable AIWB holsters I've come across are Dale Fricke's offerings... specifically the Archangel (non-tuck) and the Joab (touchable):
http://www.dalefrickeholsters.com/products.htm
(Use the scroll bar at the top to find them, the AA is the first one and the Joab is the 6th over).
Best customer service ever, too. Dale will even do custom holsters for just about anything you can think of, and at great prices.
Does the Joab have to come in that color? I don't want to look like I'm shoplifting a toilet paper dispenser.
I can see that the cant is different, so I'm going to throw my neutral cant clip back onto my Desantis Tuck This and see if I can't work something out.
mcantar18c
10-09-2011, 22:28
Nope, comes in black, tan, green, and I think others.
Are you carrying at one o'clock? Even back before I had this little gut I found this uncomfortable. Can you be more specific?
I feel like the draw is quick, but delicate; like it'd be very easy to knock out of my hand. I have to pluck it out of my belt and can't get a real grip like at 4 o'clock.
mcantar18c
10-09-2011, 22:59
1-1:30. The draw is incredibly fast, but more importantly its easy... shorter arc of movement, no twisting or contorting like with 3-6 carry or crossing sides like with crossdraw (something I learned from years of working with/riding horses, don't cross sides), easy to access with either hand if one is unable for whatever reason.
The delicate grip might be a symptom of a bad holster... with a good holster, it should have enough clearance under the grip to get a good solid grip on the gun as you draw (the Joab product page mentions this). Having to pluck it out of your belt is another holster issue... with any IWB holster, you want a material that will keep its shape without the gun in it to prevent the gun being held in place by your belt when drawing.
The one I'm using is for sure a poor holster as far as rigidity and having to dig out of my belt. I couldn't imagine anything more rigid fitting better though.
I'd say that there definitely is MORE twisting and contorting on the draw (even without the issues cause by my crappy holster) than with my regular IWB holster.
Mick-Boy
10-10-2011, 01:29
I switch back and forth from IWB to OWB all four seasons based on how I'm dressed.
Jeans and a tshirt I carry IWB in a Milt Sparks Versa Max 2. If I'm wearing a jacket or button down shirt I carry OWB in a RCS Phantom or something similar. If I'm carrying OWB I have a light on the pistol. Either way I always have a hand held light.
No matter how I'm carrying I try to only have one layer of clothing between my gun and my hand.
mcantar18c
10-10-2011, 01:55
The one I'm using is for sure a poor holster as far as rigidity and having to dig out of my belt. I couldn't imagine anything more rigid fitting better though.
I'd say that there definitely is MORE twisting and contorting on the draw (even without the issues cause by my crappy holster) than with my regular IWB holster.
The kydex holsters are generally either really uncomfortable, or really nice. Dale's are really nice. Its all about the way its shaped and finished off. If I ever sell this *$*%@^! truck, I'll pick up a Joab and you can try it out.
Think about the body mechanics... even act them out. With the 3 o'clock side carry, you cock your elbow out and lean a bit towards the opposite side. This puts you a little off balance and your arm isn't in a position that can be acted with as is, you need to bring your arm forward before you can do anything with it. Carrying in the 3-6 area, you're reaching behind you and possibly twisting a little bit depending on your setup... lots of bad right there, not to mention its more difficult to reach and clear the handgun when you've got thicker or longer clothing on. With crossdraw (belt or a shoulder holster) you end up with part of the right side of your body crossing over onto the left side (or vice versa), which leaves you vulnerable in lots of ways.
With AIWB the only thing moving is your arm and all you're doing is bringing your arm forward and up, grabbing your handgun on the way up. Nothing but a single arm needs to move, throughout the full range of motion your arm is never in a position where you couldn't throw a strike or are otherwise disabled, and the amount of movement needed is much less.
Haha, I'm not so fat that I need to be doing all kinds of awkward twisting and bending to draw from 4 o'clock. Reach down, pull gun out.
I've never seen a competitive shooter draw from appendix, although I do see many hold their mags there.
josh7328
10-10-2011, 10:16
I carry my 1911 officer year round. I use a liberty holster and I can wear a tee shirt without printing in the summer.
Lex_Luthor
10-10-2011, 10:33
I got a Smart Carry deep concealment holster. So far, wearing it around the house, it's super comfortable. I'm getting faster at drawing too. Seems about to same to me to pull shirt aside to draw from IWB, or to pull your pants out a bit to pull my weapon from my crotch area. Besides, I don't have to buy a whole new wardrobe of pants with a bigger waist size. A big thumbs up from me.
Byte Stryke
10-10-2011, 13:18
full size 1911 for all 4 seasons
mcantar18c
10-10-2011, 14:02
Haha, I'm not so fat that I need to be doing all kinds of awkward twisting and bending to draw from 4 o'clock. Reach down, pull gun out.
I've never seen a competitive shooter draw from appendix, although I do see many hold their mags there.
Looking to competitive shooters for carry ideas is like looking to NASCAR for ideas on what tires to use on a rockcrawler.
Here, try this... do an intense upper body workout that incorporates your chest, shoulders, and back, maxing yourself out on every exercise. Then when you're nice and sore and it hurts to move your arms... simulate drawing from various positions and see what position is the easiest to draw from. I can guarantee it'll be AIWB.
Here's a piece of an article for ya...
Immediate Advantages of Appendix Carry/IWB:
1). Protect the gun in crowded situations – One of the fears of most armed guys is going into a large crowd where you can’t keep everyone 21 feet away like they tell you at the range, you can’t keep your back to the wall like they did in the old westerns, and all manner of strangers will be bumping into and rubbing across your strong side holstered CCW pistol. With Appendix Carry, you can simply keep your arm across the holster and no one will ever know you are armed.
2). Easier covert deployment due to less arm motion in the draw - Some folks never worry about covert deployment. This is probably because they have never been in an armed robbery where any fast motions indicative of a draw would be met with gun fire.
The shoulder articulation needed to bring the hand up to the belt buckle area is considerably less, and includes less travel time, than what is needed to reach for a wallet kept in the right cheek pocket. Less motion draws less attention, and is faster.
3). Easier deployment in grappling or stalemate situations - Think of your fight starting with the bad guy knocking you down and now pummeling you on the ground. If you tell me that such a thing will never happen you must be the baddest hombre ever to strap on a gun. Me, I know it could happen. Look at the lead photo above. Could you get your pistol out?
Finding yourself in that situation, a draw from Appendix Carry will be much easier and faster, not to mention physically safer than traditional strong side carry.
4). It is faster than any other kind of carry. Don't believe it? I will prove it to you on based on physics and geometry alone....and then we'll go out on the Force On Force floor.
Try an experiment right now. Stand with your arms at your sides. Now move your “strong side” hand to the Appendix Position (just to the right of the belt buckle). Try again with what would be the cross draw position, and the strong side position. You will notice that the distance to grip is much less in appendix carry. Left handed guys, simply reverse the exercise.
A second experiment. From each one of those positions, move your hand now to the fully extended position as if you were going to shoot. Just do it one handed now for simplicity. The Appendix position is still less movement, and thus faster.
5). Unless you are extremely overweight, Appendix Carry is easier to conceal than other types of carry. Guys, my job is to produce people that can win a gunfight decissively and not to validate poor eating habits. You know those guys that fly armed on airplanes in case there is a terrorist on board? They tend toward appendix carry as well because their concealment requirements are quite high.
Important points about Appendix Carry holsters.
1). Height of the holster from the beltline is a compromise. The guys who want total concealment want it to ride as low as possible. Problem is that the lower it rides, the harder it is to get a grip on the gun when you draw. The higher it rides, the harder it is to conceal.
A rule of thumb is that the holster should allow your middle finger, ring finger, and pinky finger to wrap around the front strap of the pistol. If you can't do that, you will not be able to draw the gun at speed. Oh, you might pull some decent draws standing still shooting at some cardboard monkey on the range, but the minute you have to move and your body is not in the perfect position, forget it. Don't believe me? Come on out to class and see for yourself.
2). Positioning of the holster. The holster has to be placed on the belt in the same spot so when your hand habitually moves to it, it will not have shifted somewhere else. Usually riding a belt loop is enough to satisfy this need.
3). It must be mobile. Wait...didn't you just say it needed to the fixed? No. I said it needed to be positioned on the same spot every time. But unlike the side holster or the near-behind-the-back holster, the front of the torso flexes and moves considerably more and in various ways. A holster placed there needs to be able to move with the body, while remaining stationary on the belt.
Again, don't judge the holster by how you did at a gun game where you always shoot and draw from stationary points. That is a gun game and not a gun fight. Determine how well the holster works for you in how well you can still draw from true street concealment and fight in a force on force event, while running for your life "off the X".
If you have been looking for a good concealed carry concept that gives nothing up in terms of speed of access, this is it guys.
Arguments against:
1. depending on your build, holster cant, and requirement, it may limit significantly the type and size of handgun you can conceal. I personally am not tall enough to sit in a normal chair with a full sized auto in this position, regardless of cant.
2. Muzzle sweeping issues, specifically from a sitting position. I'm aware that these can be overcome by modifying your draw stroke, but doing so would largely negate the ergonomic advantages of this carry position.
Other than that, I'm just not real comfortable reholstering a firearm that close to certain appendages that I have developed a fondness for [LOL]. Particularly on a firearm which has only passive safeties(Glock, M&P, etc).
mcantar18c
10-10-2011, 14:50
Arguments against:
1. depending on your build, holster cant, and requirement, it may limit significantly the type and size of handgun you can conceal. I personally am not tall enough to sit in a normal chair with a full sized auto in this position, regardless of cant.
2. Muzzle sweeping issues, specifically from a sitting position. I'm aware that these can be overcome by modifying your draw stroke, but doing so would largely negate the ergonomic advantages of this carry position.
Other than that, I'm just not real comfortable reholstering a firearm that close to certain appendages that I have developed a fondness for [LOL]. Particularly on a firearm which has only passive safeties(Glock, M&P, etc).
For all but the very overweight, some personal adjustments to the holster and positioning of it are all that are needed to solve the comfort issues. Check out that link to Dale Fricke's site... send him an email and I bet you he'd be able to make something that'll work well for you for whatever gun you want to carry.
For me, muzzle sweeping issues are a moot point, and not because I never sweep anything with my muzzle. Think about your draw/reholster... I don't think a single one of you can tell me you have a CC setup where you don't cover stuff you don't want to shoot in the process of drawing/reholstering, mostly on your own body. EVERY SINGLE TIME I draw or reholster my gun, I run the risk of ballistically castrating myself, tearing open a femoral artery, etc.
Just keep your finger off the trigger and pay attention while holstering your gun, simple as that. Keep in mind... nobody ever won a gunfight by having the fastest reholster...
Same gun, same rig. Except on the rare occasion when wearing my fanny pack, yes I know all of the jokes about fanny packs, is preferable. Those times are usually when I am fshing on my boat and I want to put it in the glove box. The boats glove box, not my trucks.
I carry 4" 1911 in an inside the waistband holster year round and it works under a tee shirt, sweater, vest with little or no print.
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