View Full Version : Advice on breaking a guard dog...
El Caballo Loco
10-15-2011, 16:18
WARNING: Long read ahead.
I could really use some! My wife and I adopted an 8 year old male beagle/manchester terrier mix. We went over his behavior and history information at the shelter and we were both extremely impressed with how calm and collected he is, especially for having beagle in him.
What we failed to notice was the previous owners reason for bringing him to the shelter:
"No use for guard dog anymore"
DUN DUN DUN
So we get back home with him and he's still very calm, listens well, adjusts to the home well, and seems to be a great fit.
We met the guard dog in him today. My wife is a massage therapist and one of her clients knocked on the door. I could see the dogs hackles raise and he started growling but before I could contain him my wife opened the door (not a dog person and oblivious to these signs) and the dog got a nip in on the clients thigh. It was no issue with the client as he understood and is also a good friend.
I put the dog for a time out in a dark closet for 1 hour until the client left. I let him back out and kept him at my side and under control and he remained calm and controlled again.
Another behavior the dog possesses is to sit on the couch in front of the window which has a good look on who comes to the front door. He growls at every stranger he sees.
I understand the client crossed what could be considered a boundary the dog established (threshold of the front doorway) and that there needs to be an Alpha male role established (oh, I got this!).
If there are any dog owners with experience in this what would your recommend? He is literally one of the most well-behaved dogs I've had except for when he goes on the defense.
I'd much rather break him and keep him than pawn him off on someone else.
As of right now I am sticking with the time-outs and repeating time out the whole way to the closet. I give the command of enough initially, and then time out on the way to the closet to let him calm down and realize he's doing something wrong.
Any advice would be appreciated.
What sucks is you have no idea how the "Guard dog" was put in him. My intial suggestion would be to ether leash him when you have a visitor or try a shock collar (I hate those), begals in general are some time just lil ass' about their homes anyway but this is a tough situation and if I come up with anything better I will post it up...GOOD LUCK MAN!!!
You will HAVE to leash him when you have company. Best thing to start out doing is introducing your dog to company. In other words. Tie up dog in backyard, let the human in the house, THEN bring in the dog on a leash. Make sure you and your humans ignore the dog. If he raises his hackles or starts to growl, admonish and take back outside. Repeat until there is no defenseive edge.
After that, make the dog lie down in front of the guest. If he refuses, MAKE him. YOU are the alpha. Best way is to grab back of neck (watch out for getting your bicep too close to mouth), reach under the back two legs with your other arm and roll him gently over. Once he's on his side, keep your hand on his neck and his exposed thigh. He WILL fight. You must hold him until he submits, it might take a while.
Then, while you still hold him, let your guest come stand over dog and pet on the rear (stay away from head/mouth until dog is broken, but you DO need to approach from the front so teh doggy sees.. Just don't pet the head in this step yet). It's a long process and you'll never be totally rid of the "guard" part if the training did it right. However, you should be able to communicate to your dog when to turn it on and off. If he's getting edgy in the house, then in his mind, it is HIS territory. You need to convince the dog that he is in your territory. You are the alpha.
Lots of correction, repetition, and doggy treats should get the desired effect. Never encourage the guard dog unless he is an actual working dog. ALWAYS admonish him for raises hackles... it's a long process, but it can be done.
Just keep a leash handy.
Edit: Also, remember that dogs have wonderful senses. If he senses that you are hesitant to have him around strangers, etc... he'll take charge and the guard will come out since he takes that hesitancy for you not being in control of the situation. If you'd ever like to expose him to other dogs, I have no problem letting him run with mine. They need to be socialized.
funkfool
10-15-2011, 20:04
Take him to cripple creek or Vegas.
I have no input of any more value.
forgive me...
mcantar18c
10-15-2011, 20:31
That's a pretty good quality to have, IMO, and not something I'd want to break him of.
I think people are looking at this the wrong way... don't train him to be less defensive or be less of a loyal protector (what he sees his role as)... instead, focus on training him to listen to your commands when you want him to back off.
Its simple conditioning... repeated exposure to stimulus (have guests over) with a positive response (like a treat) for the target behavior (backing down when you give him the proper command). You need to be the Alpha 100% of the time, but it seems like you've got that part down or at least understand it.
My dog always lets me know when something ain't right, and he can be pretty intimidating when he wants to be. When I tell him to leave it or to back off though, he goes and lies down or sits between me and the unfamiliar person if we're talking at the door or something. To me that's exactly how things should be.
El Caballo Loco
10-15-2011, 20:33
Mazin and BigBear, thanks a lot.
BigBear, definitely some good advice there. I may take you up on your offer once we establish some guidelines around here and see how things progress.
mcantar18c, you brought up a really good point of not wanting to break that habit. I definitely agree with you of it being a good quality.
Something I didn't include is that my wife is a massage therapist and does a lot of work from home.
I want to add that the biggest Issue is time, it will take awhile but the dog will conform to the owner..
Rgr, you can still break the dog from being aggressive without the magic word. It is a good quality to have but in your original post it sounded like you wanted it gone.
Something else I didn't mention. If the dog used the couch to peek out the window, and that visual cue is the trigger... Move the couch or don't let him on it, lol. I always like seeing people's faces when I open the door and there is a dog staring at them unbeknownst, lol.
He is 8 years old???
That behavior is deeply ingrained. Find someone who wants a guard dog or put him down.
Post pics of dog. I'm sure someone here will give him a good home.
funkymonkey1111
10-16-2011, 00:53
what is it that you are hoping to accomplish by putting him in a dark closet?
jplove71
10-16-2011, 01:02
He is 8 years old???
That behavior is deeply ingrained. Find someone who wants a guard dog or put him down.
Post pics of dog. I'm sure someone here will give him a good home.
You are clueless about dogs. ANY dog can be re-trained no matter the age or background.
Letting the dog know that the human is the Alpha is key.
El Caballo Loco
10-16-2011, 01:25
what is it that you are hoping to accomplish by putting him in a dark closet?
There seems to be a lot of different information concerning how to handle different dog behaviors. One of the methods that ran consistent amongst the different pieces I've read so far is that punishment by pain or noise or anything like that will lose the animals respect (duh), but instead when the dog gets excited, to confine him/her somewhere boring and quiet where the dog can calm down.
I'm open to different suggestions. I'm definitely going to try BigBears method as there is no dominance asserting factor to a time out.
It is a good quality to have but in your original post it sounded like you wanted it gone.I agree. I've been on the fence about it. I'm married with an 11 year old girl so that is definitely a quality I'd like to keep in our home, but not to where there is a total lack of control. As you brought up, I think proper socialization will help more than anything.
El Caballo Loco
10-16-2011, 01:28
You are clueless about dogs. ANY dog can be re-trained no matter the age or background.
Letting the dog know that the human is the Alpha is key.
I wasn't going to reply to that.
A mentality like that is probably why he ended up at the pound in the first place. [Rant2]
You can break and re-train a dog of any good or bad habit/trait, owner willing. I just have no experience here. There will be no "putting down" out of my house.
I wasn't going to reply to that.
A mentality like that is probably why he ended up at the pound in the first place. [Rant2]
You can break and re-train a dog of any good or bad habit/trait, owner willing. I just have no experience here. There will be no "putting down" out of my house.
Yep people that take the easy way out or just get a dog to fill some void then discards them like a old garbage bag really pisses me off, when I get a animal its a member of my family for its ENTIRE LIFE not just untill I get bored or want something new. People like that tend to have no loyalty and will get no respect from me at all.
Good for you to take the time and effort to re-trian him and I promise you will not have to worry about the woman of the house when your away, unlike people that dog will have no problems defending you / your family with no thought to its own health. [Beer]
I would not be dealing with a eight year old dog with a tendency to bite people.
This anti social behavior is risking your business and setting you up for a lawsuit.
The dog is not guarding, its biting.
I dislike pound puppies due to the many problem dogs that are created.
Cut your loses and do some research and buy from a breeders with a track record.
El caballa, ignore the folks telling you to get rid of your dog. Send me a pm and I'll give you my contact number. I'm "usually" free on fri/sat and I would love to help with your dog. There is no need fear. I'm sure you have a wonderful dog that will love you and your family for being his leader.
BTW, my dog is a police attack reject who has been retrained. Now instead of ripping your face off, he'll lick you to death... Unless I say the magic word,hehe. The point is, he's around kids, strangers, other dogs, etc and knows how to act. It can be done, just takes some time. A few folks on here have met my dog (like Byte) and they all think hes a butterball.
I would not be dealing with a eight year old dog with a tendency to bite people.
This anti social behavior is risking your business and setting you up for a lawsuit.
The dog is not guarding, its biting.
I dislike pound puppies due to the many problem dogs that are created.
Cut your loses and do some research and buy from a breeders with a track record.
Wow....You know I got a dog from a pound that had some of the same issues and he was the best dog I have ever had, but then again dogs are products of thier owners.
Your advice is so ridiculous that the only thing I have to say that it's people like you that we have over filled shelters and animal abuse and neglect. Thanks for bringing some of your wisdom into a topic which you obviously know nothing about.
Wow....You know I got a dog from a pound that had some of the same issues and he was the best dog I have ever had, but then again dogs are products of thier owners.
Your advice is so ridiculous that the only thing I have to say that it's people like you that we have over filled shelters and animal abuse and neglect. Thanks for bringing some of your wisdom into a topic which you obviously know nothing about.
Why would it be my fault that we have a excess amount of dogs?
I buy quality dogs from people with a track record. I spay or neuter my dogs and I take the time to train and socialize them.
I don't see the upside to buying a dog with a track record of failure from a shelter.
Shelters are a easy way out for irresponsible people to get rid of their animals they don't want or don't know how to handle.
Buying from a shelter is supporting the breeding and owning of undesirable animals.
Its a shame that the animals have to suffer due to stupid people.
Why would it be my fault that we have a excess amount of dogs?
I buy quality dogs from people with a track record. I spay or neuter my dogs and I take the time to train and socialize them.
I don't see the upside to buying a dog with a track record of failure from a shelter.
Shelters are a easy way out for irresponsible people to get rid of their animals they don't want or don't know how to handle.
Buying from a shelter is supporting the breeding and owning of undesirable animals.
Its a shame that the animals have to suffer due to stupid people.
Its the mantality of taking the easy way out that was presented in your first post. I agree that it is a shame that animals suffer due to stupid people but sterotyping all "pound puppies" are untrainable or have issues is the wrong attude to have. Just because the original owner did not have the deadication to properly train the animal does not mean that their are not very good animals out there to be had.
I adopted a rott/ german shep mix that snapped at the attendant the day I got him and over the 5 years I had him there were no issues at all. The only "Documented" issue with this pup in question was the owner "no longer had a need for a gaurd dog". The fact that he nipped someone is troubling but not a impossable hurdle.
BTW there are no "undesirable animals" just stupid owners.
Dogs are territorial. Dogs are pack animals. Dogs are hierarchical. Dogs will respond when they feel threatened.
Sounds like the OP's dog now considers the house as it's territory and has accepted the family as it's pack. This isn't a bad thing. The dog needs to be taught to respond to the owner's commands. Possitive reinforcement (treats, pets, praise) help. A leash can be a good control devise but as long as it doesn't become a tug-of-war.
Get a friend to knock on the door. Be there with the dog. Make the dog sit and stay. Reward the dog. When the door is opened, make sure the dog maintains being seated. Reward. Let the dog great the newcomer with the owner. Repeat. You have to exert your dominance to teach the dog the proper response.
I have no advice for Crazy Horse, but The Story of Edgar Sawtelle is a great book for dog lovers.
You are clueless about dogs. ANY dog can be re-trained no matter the age or background.
Letting the dog know that the human is the Alpha is key.
Okay junior, how about YOU volunteer to take this dog?
I used to train dogs. This is not a very promising situation.
His wife works out of their home and the dog bites strangers. He has been doing that for a long time. This presents a SERIOUS liability.
Sure, dog can be conditioned not to bite strangers -- but it will take a lot of time, constant reinforcement, and you'll never be able to trust that dog 100%. Simply hiring a trainer to come over for an hour twice weekly isn't going to do it.
You want to keep this dog AND keep out of trouble, you need to keep it locked in a room whenever you're expecting company. There is simply no quick fix for this situation. Shelter dogs can have problems stemming from abuse, neglect, or bad training, but they can often be corrected. This dog wasn't a police dog reject -- he was encouraged to be aggressive towards strangers for a very long time, and that is how his brain is wired right now. Making it so he is no longer aggressive towards strangers will be confusing and psychologically traumatic for him. This dog was a very poor choice for your family and you should probably return him to the shelter where you got him. It was criminally negligent for them to give this dog away for adoption without making certain you knew quite clearly he has a history of aggression. What shelter gave away this dog without telling you that the file stated he was a "guard dog"?
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