View Full Version : Having short stroking problems
jackthewall81
10-16-2011, 22:06
Having short stroking problems. New Daniel Defense M4. I would fire one or two rounds then it would jam or short stroke. My bolt carrier screws are tight, and the gas block, gas ring and bolt appears to be tight and not letting any gas escape. Gas tube and everything appears to be ok. I am thinking it might have to do with the crappy ammo (Wolf and Tula), the magazine (magpul), charging handle, buffer or buffer spring. I am going to replace the handle and buffer spring and buy a new magazine as well as better ammo. I am also going to get some new Break Free CLP to help with the lubercation. Not sure what else to do. Any advice will help. Thanks!
Having short stroking problems. New Daniel Defense M4. I would fire one or two rounds then it would jam or short stroke. My bolt carrier screws are tight, and the gas block, gas ring and bolt appears to be tight and not letting any gas escape. Gas tube and everything appears to be ok. I am thinking it might have to do with the crappy ammo (Wolf and Tula), the magazine (magpul), charging handle, buffer or buffer spring. I am going to replace the handle and buffer spring and buy a new magazine as well as better ammo. I am also going to get some new Break Free CLP to help with the lubercation. Not sure what else to do. Any advice will help. Thanks!
It's the ammo. Before you start replacing anything shoot some good ammo. m193/855 will do. If you still have problems then you can start troubleshooting other stuff.
Sharpienads
10-16-2011, 22:22
Lol, I thought this was gonna be more "personal" in nature. I was gonna say I think there's a pill for that, but nevermind.
mcantar18c
10-16-2011, 22:27
A buddy's DD runs fine with steel case... in fact that's all he runs through it.
Shoot some brass case ammo just to eliminate that from the equation, but my money's on something else.
jackthewall81
10-16-2011, 22:30
Lol, I thought this was gonna be more "personal" in nature. I was gonna say I think there's a pill for that, but nevermind.
Thats a problem as well...[Tooth]
mccantar, Man I hope not. I got a Daniel Defense just because they are know for not having problems. Just my luck.
Byte Stryke
10-16-2011, 22:37
buying a box of 20 Federal 5.56 is ALLOT Cheaper than replacing any of the above mentioned parts
try that first, consult with your local gunsmith if this fails.
Its possible that the crappy ammo might not have enough power to cycle a brand new gun.
After all the parts break in then the wolf and tula might be fine.
jackthewall81
10-16-2011, 22:53
Ill try new ammo out tomorrow. Thanks guys.
Also save $ on CLP, just get yourself some nice heavy weight motor oil to lube it and maybe some CV joint grease to replace expensive fancy greast for your high friction areas.
Make sure that chamber is clean as well.
leatherneck448
10-16-2011, 23:56
Yep, its the ammo. When your feed your rifle the good stuff, It will be happy, and you will be too.
http://www.youtube.com/user/VuurwapenBlog#p/search/0/V5qDnKGJb2s
Heres a video showing just how undergassed tulammo really is. pretty cool stuff.
(ETA- can you believe it?!?! almost a year on the site and I still cant figure out how to embed videos?!?! grrrr....)
SA Friday
10-17-2011, 00:01
Use some basic lithium grease and lubricate your buffer spring and charging handle. Then get some synthetic 10w30 and lubricate the bolt and the BCG and upper. Then, take all CLP in your possession and throw it in the trash. Load some American made ammo into that Pmag and try it again.
If that doesn't work, then start troubleshooting.
edited to add: if you bought that Tula from walmart and the guy behind the counter told you not to do it, you should have listened to him.
Its possible that the crappy ammo might not have enough power to cycle a brand new gun.
After all the parts break in then the wolf and tula might be fine.
Exactly. A new rifle should be tested/broken in with good ammo. Once it's known to function reliably with good ammo then you can start tinkering with it to run steel. Not every rifle, even the really good ones, can run steel right out of the box. I suspect the problem is a combination of new gun (parts need to wear together a bit), not enough lube and too heavy of a buffer for crap ammo.
jackthewall81
10-17-2011, 00:23
Thanks for the tips. Wish Walmart carried more of a variety, and there were more gun stores in the Boulder county area. Would help with the ease of getting better ammo. Ill grab some at Bass Pro tomorrow.
Use some basic lithium grease and lubricate your buffer spring and charging handle. Then get some synthetic 10w30 and lubricate the bolt and the BCG and upper. Then, take all CLP in your possession and throw it in the trash. Load some American made ammo into that Pmag and try it again.
If that doesn't work, then start troubleshooting.
edited to add: if you bought that Tula from walmart and the guy behind the counter told you not to do it, you should have listened to him.
Will do. I have some 10w30 in the garage. But, whats the problem with CLP or normal gun lubricants in your opinion?
Use some basic lithium grease and lubricate your buffer spring and charging handle. Then get some synthetic 10w30 and lubricate the bolt and the BCG and upper. Then, take all CLP in your possession and throw it in the trash. Load some American made ammo into that Pmag and try it again.
If that doesn't work, then start troubleshooting.
edited to add: if you bought that Tula from walmart and the guy behind the counter told you not to do it, you should have listened to him.
[Beer]
Nice
mcantar18c
10-17-2011, 00:28
Thanks for the tips. Wish Walmart carried more of a variety, and there were more gun stores in the Boulder county area. Would help with the ease of getting better ammo. Ill grab some at Bass Pro tomorrow.
Will do. I have some 10w30 in the garage. But, whats the problem with CLP or normal gun lubricants in your opinion?
They cost 5 times more and don't really do anything different.
jackthewall81
10-17-2011, 00:29
Yep, its the ammo. When your feed your rifle the good stuff, It will be happy, and you will be too.
http://www.youtube.com/user/VuurwapenBlog#p/search/0/V5qDnKGJb2s
Heres a video showing just how undergassed tulammo really is. pretty cool stuff.
(ETA- can you believe it?!?! almost a year on the site and I still cant figure out how to embed videos?!?! grrrr....)
Yup. This is exactly what is happening. Cool video.
They cost 5 times more and don't really do anything different.
I bought a couple boxes of tula for zombie giggles and started looking at the bullets 50% or more of the cartridges have obvious shaving of the bullet where it meets the case.
But more importantly I can't reload steel.
mcantar18c
10-17-2011, 00:32
I bought a couple boxes of tula for zombie giggles and started looking at the bullets 50% or more of the cartridges have obvious shaving of the bullet where it meets the case.
But more importantly I can't reload steel.
He was asking about gun lubes....
He was asking about gun lubes....
indeed...
just saw bolded txt like i replied to sa's post thought you quoted me...
going to bed. still relevent to thread just not to quoted post.
mcantar18c
10-17-2011, 00:36
indeed...
just saw bolded txt like i replied to sa's post thought you quoted me...
going to bed. still relevent to thread just not to quoted post.
Yeah, that makes more sense lol.
SideShow Bob
10-17-2011, 05:37
Having short stroking problems. New Daniel Defense M4. I would fire one or two rounds then it would jam or short stroke. My bolt carrier screws are tight, and the gas block, gas ring and bolt appears to be tight and not letting any gas escape. Gas tube and everything appears to be ok. I am thinking it might have to do with the crappy ammo (Wolf and Tula), the magazine (magpul), charging handle, buffer or buffer spring. I am going to replace the handle and buffer spring and buy a new magazine as well as better ammo. I am also going to get some new Break Free CLP to help with the lubercation. Not sure what else to do. Any advice will help. Thanks!
Yep,
If lining and ammo doesn't fix your problems, take it to BP Tactical for a diagnosis and repair. If he can't fix it, no o e can.
colorider
10-17-2011, 10:52
Mine will not shoot Tula either. Same problem your having.
I have put 1000 rounds of brass American eagle thru it with 0 issues
Tula will give me short stroke problems as soon as I pull the trigger.
Wow, never knew you could use motor oil and axl grease on an AR. Good to know since I'm in the process of building my first AR. Thanks all.
jackthewall81
10-17-2011, 18:10
Good to hear it is most likely the ammo... Was getting really concerned about a gas block leak or something.
I would send it to a gunsmith, but Daniel Defense lifetime warranty is cheaper... [Beer]
I fully stripped my gun today and cleaned it with what SA (i think) recommended, the 10w30 lube and lithium grease. Worked very well with some degreaser to clean the carbon. THANKS SA your the man!!! Saved me a few bucks as well.
Byte Stryke
10-17-2011, 19:54
if you have already purchased, procured or otherwise appropriated regular gun oil/grease, its OK to use. just saying its not a huge deal to use standard petroleum products.
some will even insist on silicone lubricants.
use your own judgement.
SA Friday
10-17-2011, 22:15
if you have already purchased, procured or otherwise appropriated regular gun oil/grease, its OK to use. just saying its not a huge deal to use standard petroleum products.
some will even insist on silicone lubricants.
use your own judgement.
Nope. CLP is the devil. Throw that **** out and never ever allow it near your guns again. If you want to get use out of it, sell it to your enemies. That's all it's good for.
jackthewall81
10-17-2011, 22:19
Nope. CLP is the devil. Throw that **** out and never ever allow it near your guns again. If you want to get use out of it, sell it to your enemies. That's all it's good for.
Why.
Byte Stryke
10-17-2011, 22:22
because he's is biased and apparently independently wealthy.
Personally I run Tetra oil and grease...
use what makes you happy.
:D
SA Friday
10-17-2011, 22:40
Why.
All oils and greases are essentially chains of carbon and hydrogen. There are additions to e chains, but for the most part, the longer the chain, the thicker the material and the harder it is to break down. CLP is very short carbon chains and has detergents in it. Guess what, detergents can break carbon chains down, so you get deterioration in the oil very fast. The faster it deteriorates, the less it lubricates. You lose your viscosity. When the chains break down at lower temps because of short chains and chemical reactions, they get small enough to be absorbed into the crystalline matrix of iron and carbon, etc that makes up the metals in your gun parts. Next thing you know your gun is dry as a bone and starts to puke.
So, the trick is to find greases and oils that will retain their viscosity under extreme conditions and not break down. Hmmm, let me think... Oh ya, the auto industry developed that stuff like a hundred years ago. There's a reason we don't run any other types of oils in our vehicles. They don't last as long in extreme heat and they break down too fast.
6 ounces of CLP will run you $4.97 at walmart. A quart of synthetic motor oil will cost you about the same. There are reasons they use ATF,and motor oil, and lithium grease etc in something that takes hundreds of thousands of miles of use. Why on earth do shooters think they have to by garbage at 10 times the price that works worse than what's already out there?
We ran all of out belt fed machine guns and most of the rest of the firearms on motor oil in the desert. It took the heat and abuse. There are some decent oils out there, and some for special applications, but short of that, they are mostly over rated and over priced. CLP is the worst, flat out the worst. Not all oils and greases are created equal. You can run what you want, but I run my ARs and pistols on Slideglide grease and/or synthetic motor oil. They work better, cost less, and I run my guns hard.
SA Friday
10-17-2011, 22:49
because he's is biased and apparently independently wealthy.
Personally I run Tetra oil and grease...
use what makes you happy.
:D
Because I've done the testing, shot 30-40k rounds a year from 2005 to 2009, have ran hundreds of rounds through multiple platforms in 20 below F to 130 F, have pistols with more than 90k rounds on them and they still run flawlessly, and because I know the difference between an alkene, alkane, and an alkyne, and I've tested basic carbon chain molecules enough in the lab to know what energy it takes to break down a pentane hydrocarbon chain vs a decene hydrocarbon chain.
Motor oil is cheaper too.
Read more, type less...
Because I've done the testing, shot 30-40k rounds a year from 2005 to 2009, have ran hundreds of rounds through multiple platforms in 20 below F to 130 F, have pistols with more than 90k rounds on them and they still run flawlessly, and because I know the difference between an alkene, alkane, and an alkyne, and I've tested basic carbon chain molecules enough in the lab to know what energy it takes to break down a pentane hydrocarbon chain vs a decene hydrocarbon chain.
Motor oil is cheaper too.
Read more, type less...
I never even thought about this before. great posts, thanks for the info and I will definitely run some synthetic in a couple ARs and see how they handle compared to the "gun oil".
But the real question is: will valvoline warranty them like they do my silverado engine for 225,000 miles? I want 225,000 round warranty![Weight]
as to the OP. did you take the gun apart first before you shot it? a lot of guns come with a near cosomoline grease on them that sticks to everything and slows your action way down.
I would pull it apart, wipe everything down with solvent, then lubricate with the oil of your choice and I bet the gun works fine.
so SA what should I have in my range bag lubewise and what should I clean with?
SA Friday
10-18-2011, 06:24
so SA what should I have in my range bag lubewise and what should I clean with?
I like to take old drop bottles of other oils and fill it with the motor oil by using a syringe. Hopes 9 and Shooters Choice are what I use to clean. I think they both make small bottles of it for range bags now too.
BPTactical
10-18-2011, 07:46
Good info SA but I will interject that CLP does have a viable usage- "ArmorAll" for firearms. It works great for a light oil wipedown after a detail cleaning. Worthless aside from that
I have long been a fan of Tetra but as soon as I finish off what I have now its Mobil One 30wt- what's a quart run? 8.00 or so vs 12 oz. Of Tetra at 12.00 per.
colorider
10-18-2011, 08:36
Interesting info about the lube. Cleaning as well.
I have been using the Browning bore scrub stuff in the spray can.
It smells a lot like hoppes. Is it any good.? Seems to do a good job.
BPTactical
10-18-2011, 09:30
Interesting info about the lube. Cleaning as well.
I have been using the Browning bore scrub stuff in the spray can.
It smells a lot like hoppes. Is it any good.? Seems to do a good job.
Most common bore solvents are mineral spirit based with a touch of ammonia to cut copper and lead. Other ingredients vary but they are basically the same. I prefer "Shooters Choice" bore cleaner but it is pricey.
Newer compounds such as MPro7 are great, are not as stinky and typically not petroleum based. The only drawback I have seen with MPro7 is it almost works too well, if given time it will clean a bore down to the molecular level nearly. You need to make sure that you oil well afterwards.
For a cheap alternative try "Eds Red" homebrew.
1 part Dexron II ATF
1 part Kerosene
1 part Mineral Spirits
1 part Acetone
Add everything to the ATF and mix well-store in a metal container because the Acetone can attack a plastic jug then you have a mess.
Keep in mind this is a bore cleaner, not a copper/lead remover. If you need to cut copper and or lead add 2oz of Ammonia to 12oz of the Eds Red. Let it soak in the bore for 10-15 minutes and scrub.
The regular "Eds Red" works great to remove wadding residue from shotguns.
ChadAmberg
10-18-2011, 09:33
I'm thinking lube lube lube and more lube. That will handle both types of short stroking, both the gun and the personal type.
Oh, and DD does say don't run steel case in their guns, if you like the warranty.
jackthewall81
10-18-2011, 09:57
Oh, and DD does say don't run steel case in their guns, if you like the warranty.
Ya, I see why.
Byte Stryke
10-18-2011, 13:06
Because I've done the testing, shot 30-40k rounds a year from 2005 to 2009, have ran hundreds of rounds through multiple platforms in 20 below F to 130 F, have pistols with more than 90k rounds on them and they still run flawlessly, and because I know the difference between an alkene, alkane, and an alkyne, and I've tested basic carbon chain molecules enough in the lab to know what energy it takes to break down a pentane hydrocarbon chain vs a decene hydrocarbon chain.
Motor oil is cheaper too.
Read more, type less...
and for those of us that aren't firing 30-40 thousand rounds a year in a desert???
I use what my Gunsmith recommended...
68Charger
10-18-2011, 13:19
For a cheap alternative try "Eds Red" homebrew.
quoted for truth- and straight from my bookmarks:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm
LOTs of good info in there...
I use CLP as BPT describes, and just as a spray cleaner (won't attack plastics like brake cleaner does) but not as a lube... just consider it CP [Coffee]
tula isnt your problem if your gun is functioning with brass but not steel there is something wrong with it and it is BARELY working with brass.....ive been through almost 5000 flawless rounds of tula this year alone in a buncha different rifles
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