CCW in the Workplace

[BuffCyclist]

Hi All, so eg_btr's post about his boss possibly being anti-gun got me thinking about my situation.

I have to go in full depth about it here, my workplace is quite unique.

Basically, I am employed by a major university, but I work at an observatory which is on national forest land, and our buildings are owned by the a university research group ( 8-10 universities that participate in research, giving us either money for operations, instruments or scientists). So technically, the buildings are not the property of the university. There are no signs whatsoever on the buildings mentioning firearms.

Here's where it gets more real. I am an observer, so I work nights. One shift is 4 nights in a row, with each shift lasting 16hrs. On my telescope, there are two observers who rotate being the warm and cold observers. The cold observer has to go outside roughly once per hour to change instruments (cartridges) on the telescope. There are no lights, all we have is a red headlight that puts out very little light.

The observatory is, like I said, in a national forest. We are at 9,000ft and have bears, mountain lions, bobcats, cows, elk, deer, turkeys and the occasional ufo. I am worried that as the cold observer one night, a mountain lion will stalk me and attack. Since they always attack from behind, I wouldn't see it coming. Not to mention, towards the end of a 16hr shift, you start to get a little exhausted and tired, and your full wits are not about you.

So, do I carry my pistol (legally of course, have my ccw) with me at all times? Or do I only bring it when I'm the cold observer (first and third night of each shift) and have to walk outside? Do I approach my boss and ask about the sites firearm policy? For the record, the nearest towns are 700 people (where I live, still in the mtns at 9kft) and 30k people which is down in the desert valley with White Sands Missile Range. Everyone around here is very progun, and there are TONS of hunters who hunt up in the mtns around our observatory.

I could either carry my G23 or LCP, but the G23 would be rather hard to conceal when I take off my cold weather gear after coming back inside. Then again, that begs the question of whether an LCP would even be useful against a mountain lion or bear.

Thoughts?

[Irving]

Do NOT bring up the issue with your boss. At most I would joke about how someone else should carry a gun when they go out in case a cat thinks they are tasty or something. Go from there. Even if you boss turns out to be totally pro-gun and loves the idea, I still wouldn't ever say anything. Even if your boss lifts up his/her shirt and shows you that he/she is carrying, I STILL wouldn't say anything, because his/her boss might not feel the same way.

[BuffCyclist]

Do NOT bring up the issue with your boss. At most I would joke about how someone else should carry a gun when they go out in case a cat thinks they are tasty or something. Go from there. Even if you boss turns out to be totally pro-gun and loves the idea, I still wouldn't ever say anything. Even if your boss lifts up his/her shirt and shows you that he/she is carrying, I STILL wouldn't say anything, because his/her boss might not feel the same way.

It has been brought up before to one of the chief engineers who told us there is a "strict no alcohol, no firearms policy" and yet no one knows about either one. We were never told what we can/cannot have on-site. It's very confusing. Like, I want to ask, but like you say then it would draw attention to me. I've been here for 1.5yrs and still haven't made up my mind on the issue!

eta: Then again, that chief engineer is from Canada originally and was shocked to hear (from another coworker) that here in the States you can own Glocks legally (he thought they were police issue only), as well as other semi-automatic pistols. Also, thinks everyone that owns ARs are up-to-no-good, because who needs that much firepower? He also works for Univ of Washington, so he has absolutely no control or supervisory responsibility here. He's just a visiting employee.

[cstone]

I agree with Irving, don't bring it up.

The only concern that I would have is whether any of the buildings or facilities are considered federal facilities. There is a law against anyone bringing a gun into a federal facility:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/930

I do not know whether NM has a state law regarding state facilities.

If it isn't against the law and you are carrying legally, drive on and be safe [Beer]

Oh, and if you get a chance, post some pictures. It sounds like a great job and you get to see some really interesting things both in the sky and your surroundings.

[Irving]

Yeah, your description of what you actually do is seriously distracting me from the actual topic.

Carry, but carry concealed and with caution. At my job, my boss said that a man wasn't whole without a knife, then gave me one. He even has a knife sharpener on his desk. Quite the change from the last gainful employment I had.

[BuffCyclist]

Hmm, that is a good point about federal buildings. Not sure how I would go about finding out if that was the case or not.

Ha, well technically, I'm a Telescope Operations Specialist (observer) at Apache Point Observatory on the Sloan Digital Sky Survey's 2.5m Telescope. I went to CU-Boulder and got my bachelors in Astronomy, graduated in May of 2009. Took me a year to get the job, but I started in June, 2010. Recently got a promotion and was moved from the day engineering crew to night observations. Now that I'm on nights, I can apply for graduate school at NMSU (since I'm an employee, my tuition is waived!) and the Astro program has developed a remote class program for observers here to get their Masters. :)

What kind of pictures do you want to see? If you want to see some images taken from the 2.5meter telescope that I work on, just pull up Google Sky. Don't believe me go here and look at item 3 "Where did all this data come from?". http://www.google.com/sky/about.html#sources

It's pretty spectacular to be working here, our telescope has been ranked number 1 of all telescopes in the world for the past 5 years due to our ability to gather data. Our instruments use fiber optics to sort the light from objects into a neat horizontal pattern. Each cartridge has either 420 or 1000 fibers depending on which instrument, and each fiber is for 1 object. So, if you look at it differently, every time we take a spectra (currently doing spectrographic observations), we're actually taking 420 or 1000 spectra. It'd be like if your camera was able to take a picture of 1000 objects every time you clicked the shutter button.

Since I've been here though, I've seen 2 mountain lions, 4 black bears, thousands of elk, thousands of deer, hundreds of turkeys, 3 bobcats, hundreds of cows, and 1 ufo.

And for the record, I carry a knife all the time. But something tells me that even if I was able to get my knife out of my pocket and open it while being attacked by a mountain lion, theres a chance I would drop it.

[cstone]

Great link. It sounds like you have a great job and an fantastic opportunity both professionally and educationally. Have you gotten any snow yet? Is it sticking around or melting off during the day?

Be safe and don't let the critters get you [ROFL1]

[Irving]

I don't know enough about telescopes to understand why it is necessary to go outside and change parts on them constantly.

[BuffCyclist]

Great link. It sounds like you have a great job and an fantastic opportunity both professionally and educationally. Have you gotten any snow yet? Is it sticking around or melting off during the day?

Be safe and don't let the critters get you [ROFL1]

Sadly, no we have not gotten any snow yet :(. It still won't arrive for a couple of weeks at best. Last year was a weak winter for us too, only got like 70in of snow, but one very awesome blizzard in February that produced 18" of snow and temps very close to -50*F (with windchill, -35*F airtemp).

And thanks, I hope I don't get attacked by anything! At least I know that mountain lions are very easy to strangle, like 5-10sec on the neck and they're out type of easy.




I don't know enough about telescopes to understand why it is necessary to go outside and change parts on them constantly.

Well, our telescope is survey driven, meaning that we have 3 instruments that share time on the telescope. Currently, there are 17 cartridges that hold a spectrographic plate (1m in diameter, 1/8" thick aluminum) that are precisely drilled for the objects on a specific part of the sky. The fiber optics are plugged into those holes, which take the light and rearrange it into the neat pattern I was talking about.

Since a plate is only drilled for a specific coordinate of targets in the sky, it takes roughly 1hr (3-4x 15min exposures) to get a high enough signal to noise ratio that the plate can be considered "done". At that point, it gets unplugged, and a new plate for a different part of the sky is plugged.

Tonight, we've completed 6 cartridges and are observing a 7th before switching over to a different instrument. The moon is coming up and the instrument we've been observing with (BOSS: Baryon Oscillation Spectrographic Survey) is VERY sensitive to its light, unable to gather nearly any data when the moon is up. In 10 minutes, we switch to observing APOGEE (Apache Point Obs Galactic Evolution Experiment) for the rest of the night. They are looking in the infrared through the dust of the band in the Milky Way Galaxy, towards the center to study the evolution of our own galaxy. It just was installed in april this year, and got on sky for the first time ("First Light") in May. Up until now, it has been EXTREMELY successful!

So there is the dark run (new moon) and the bright run (2/3 full to full moon) and the instruments split the time up that way. The day crew tomorrow will have to unplug the current plates we finished, and replug the fibers into new plates for tomorrow night. Each of the BOSS plates has 1000 fibers, and takes two people roughly 45 minutes to unplug and replug.

Currently, we are in Sloan Digital Sky Survey 3, which is reobserving the entire visible night sky up here in spectra. SDSS1 was imaging everything, which is where Google Sky got the images. SDSS2 was a different project, gathering some spectra.

I'll have to put together a virtual tour with pictures sometime and post it up. I'm sure there are others that are curious and want to know more.

Gotta run though, about to have to run back outside again to change cartridges and start observing with APOGEE.

[mcantar18c]

I haven't read through the thread, but my response to the OP:
Its better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.
If it were me, I'd carry the G23 AIWB. Concealed easily even when you take off your cold weather gear, much more effective on 4-legged critters than the LCP would be. Being concealed, nobody would know you had it unless you told them (which you DON'T do), or unless you had to use it, in which case your job should be the least of your worries.
It comes down to this: What do you value more, your life or your job? Are you willing to possibly break a rule for the sake of personal safety, or would you prefer to play by the rules (if there are any against carrying) and possibly put your safety at risk?

[BuffCyclist]

I haven't read through the thread, but my response to the OP:
Its better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.
If it were me, I'd carry the G23 AIWB. Concealed easily even when you take off your cold weather gear, much more effective on 4-legged critters than the LCP would be. Being concealed, nobody would know you had it unless you told them (which you DON'T do), or unless you had to use it, in which case your job should be the least of your worries.
It comes down to this: What do you value more, your life or your job? Are you willing to possibly break a rule for the sake of personal safety, or would you prefer to play by the rules (if there are any against carrying) and possibly put your safety at risk?

Thanks for the reply, the biggest concern of mine at the moment is whether the buildings are federal buildings or not. And I don't know how I'd go about finding out if they are or not.

[mcantar18c]

Didn't you say they were privately owned?

[BuffCyclist]

Didn't you say they were privately owned?

Well, thats what I'm not sure about. We technically get all of our funding from the university research group. But the buildings are on national forest land and we can't build a new building without spending a year convincing the national forest agency of why we need it. We are operated by NMSU though, which is an educational institution and firearms aren't allowed on their premises.

[mcantar18c]

Hmm. I'd imagine that if its funded and operated by the university, it'd be owned by them too, but I could think of a few ways it could work out to be owned by the USFS.

[BuffCyclist]

Perhaps, but we used to be operated by Fermilab. So I doubt NMSU actually paid to buy the buildings when we became employees of NMSU. This is what I mean about it being incredibly ambiguous as to what the rules are unless I ask, but if I ask then I lose all options of asking for forgiveness.

[mcantar18c]

Interesting... hard to say who would have ended up as the owner. If there's any way to quietly find out who owns it, go for it. If it were me, I'd go the beg forgiveness route rather than the ask permission one, regardless of who owned the facility.
But that's just me, and there may be serious consequences if caught... so don't take that as advice. Do what you feel is best for you.

[Aloha_Shooter]

I wouldn't ask your employer about carrying concealed but I WOULD ask what the provisions or plans are against wildlife attack -- just ask in a casual curious manner, "you know, while I've been up there, I've seen a lot of mountain lions and other dangerous critters, is there a safehouse or a shovel or something I could use if I had to protect myself?"

I wouldn't even bother with the LCP -- as Jim said about Mongo, "don't do that, you'll just piss him off."

In the meantime, you probably need to check the university's policies. They probably DO have some kind of anti-firearm policy. On the other hand, NM has pretty good laws so you may be able to keep your sidearm in the trunk and pick it up as you head out to the telescope, limiting your potential exposure.

[jimbo]

Sounds like a great job. I'm jealous.

Since you said that one of the chief engineers told you there is a "strict no alcohol, no firearms policy" I'd say that carrying might not be legal at work for you, or it might even be legal but against policy and cause for dismissal. If you want to really know the legal situation you might need to research it yourself -- the relevant regulations might include the research group's policy as well as the university, and state and federal law. Of course I'm not saying I agree with any of this policy, but it's a complex legal question. Maybe you could get a gun friendly lawyer to chime in with an opinion.

"...mountain lions are very easy to strangle."
No disrespect intended, but that's pretty funny.

[SSChameleon]

I know I gave my perspective as an employer in the other thread, but here's the short version.

Officially I have a 'no firearms' policy in my office because I am required by law to treat people equally and not discriminate. Since there is one employee who has shown interest in carrying a firearm and I don't feel comfortable with this person having a gun in the office I have a policy against it.

That being said what I don't know probably won't hurt me. If it's not against any laws and is just against policy, then you have to weigh the chance you get caught with a firearm and fired against the threat from the wild animals and make your choice.

[68Charger]

"...mountain lions are very easy to strangle."
No disrespect intended, but that's pretty funny.


It's the getting your hands around their neck that's the hard part- you know, with them latched on you the back of your neck and tearing thru the muscles on your shoulders with their claws and all...[Coffee]

In all seriousness, I'd certainly ask if anyone has ever thought of the possibility of a predator attack- and had any plans for how to handle it? At least pepper spray would be better than nothing.

If you don't carry under those circumstances- leave word with your next of kin to sue the living stuffing out of the university, as you had the means to defend yourself and they took it away.

[Zundfolge]

A Crossbreed Supertuck (http://www.crossbreedholsters.com/SuperTuckDeluxe/tabid/90/List/0/ProductID/1/CategoryID/1/Level/1/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName) with the optional velcro belt clips (http://www.crossbreedholsters.com/Portals/0/images/V-Clip_Details.jpg) on a good belt (http://www.thebeltman.net/) will comfortably conceal a G23 pretty doggone well (even in a "tucked in shirt and khakis" environment).

If you're looking for a good excuse for a new gun, a G27 will conceal a little better (or a Walther PPS, Kahr P40 one of a dozen other more concealable pieces in .40).

If you're really all that concerned about discovery, I'd only pack the piece on your night shifts and keep it in the car for your day shifts (that way you're reducing your risk of being found out).


Concealed means concealed ... keep the gun covered and your mouth shut. The only reason your co-workers or bosses should ever find out you've been packing is because you've shot a mountain lion trying to eat you (even then I'm not sure I'd say anything ... the "Three S's" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting,_shoveling,_and_shutting_up) are a good rule when dealing with your livelihood).


I'm wondering if for wildlife you might want to consider loading up with FMJs instead of the usual JHP load we usually carry for self defense (I'm thinking with larger animals, penetration is a good thing).

[DeadElephant]

Lots of good recommendations so far. Basically have to be willing to pay the consequences of your actions. Ignorance of a policy won't likely help.

"...mountain lions are very easy to strangle."

Made me laugh because I was just doing some training for some folks heading to Alaska and their company requires them to have at least one person with a Mossberg 590 at all times. One of the individuals commented he read about someone killing a bear with a knife. I told him that was a great story and if he wanted to give it a try I'd also love to read about it and look at the pictures, but I wanted to read about that guy not be that guy.

I used to belong to an astronomy club and have an 8" dob if you need to use it some time just let me know. [Neene3]

[BuffCyclist]

Wow, thanks for all the great replies! Now, time to spend the evening replying to all of the posts.


I wouldn't ask your employer about carrying concealed but I WOULD ask what the provisions or plans are against wildlife attack -- just ask in a casual curious manner, "you know, while I've been up there, I've seen a lot of mountain lions and other dangerous critters, is there a safehouse or a shovel or something I could use if I had to protect myself?"

I wouldn't even bother with the LCP -- as Jim said about Mongo, "don't do that, you'll just piss him off."

In the meantime, you probably need to check the university's policies. They probably DO have some kind of anti-firearm policy. On the other hand, NM has pretty good laws so you may be able to keep your sidearm in the trunk and pick it up as you head out to the telescope, limiting your potential exposure.

I don't think there are provisions in place. The site director is the fire chief at a local volunteer fire dept. But its 1hr from here to the nearest hospital and 30min for an ambulance to get here (at the fastest). I know the university has a policy, just hoping the university rules don't actually apply here.


Sounds like a great job. I'm jealous.

Since you said that one of the chief engineers told you there is a "strict no alcohol, no firearms policy" I'd say that carrying might not be legal at work for you, or it might even be legal but against policy and cause for dismissal. If you want to really know the legal situation you might need to research it yourself -- the relevant regulations might include the research group's policy as well as the university, and state and federal law. Of course I'm not saying I agree with any of this policy, but it's a complex legal question. Maybe you could get a gun friendly lawyer to chime in with an opinion.

"...mountain lions are very easy to strangle."
No disrespect intended, but that's pretty funny.


Oh its a spectacular job! In all honesty, its my absolute dream job and I'm so thankful and lucky to be here everyday!

The chief engineer said that in passing, but like I said, there is no written policy ANYWHERE (our website or other docs), and I was also not given a list of rules or regulations when I started, so I don't know. But, that chief engineer is canadian and not used to firearms, he also works for University of Washington, so he might be thinking of a UW rule on their campus (which NMSU has for their campuses too, but technically APO isn't one of their campuses).

And as far as the mountain lions are easy to strangle thing goes. How I should have phrased it is that mountain lions are physiologically easy to strangle. We have to take a wildlife class once per year hosted by the Dept of Fish and Game, and they said that large cats are very easy and prone to being strangled, that it just takes pressure on their necks for a few seconds and they are done. I agree that in reality, it would be nearly impossible to strangle a cat while its on your back clawing you to death, but who knows. I think if you're already in that situation, nothing could hurt your cause.



I know I gave my perspective as an employer in the other thread, but here's the short version.

Officially I have a 'no firearms' policy in my office because I am required by law to treat people equally and not discriminate. Since there is one employee who has shown interest in carrying a firearm and I don't feel comfortable with this person having a gun in the office I have a policy against it.

That being said what I don't know probably won't hurt me. If it's not against any laws and is just against policy, then you have to weigh the chance you get caught with a firearm and fired against the threat from the wild animals and make your choice.


Very true, its hard to compare to office type settings since we work in the mountains, far away from civilization and are in the wild forest. I already know that the local Sheriffs won't pull us over for speeding, even going 15-20mph over the limit on the highway between the town where I live and the observatory. It's 16miles and theres nothing on it, no traffic ever. Speed limit is 35mph and most people, including the Sheriffs travel at 50-60mph on it. So I have a feeling they might be more lenient if I use a gun in self-defense of a lion or bear while working here, very hard to say.



It's the getting your hands around their neck that's the hard part- you know, with them latched on you the back of your neck and tearing thru the muscles on your shoulders with their claws and all...[Coffee]

In all seriousness, I'd certainly ask if anyone has ever thought of the possibility of a predator attack- and had any plans for how to handle it? At least pepper spray would be better than nothing.

If you don't carry under those circumstances- leave word with your next of kin to sue the living stuffing out of the university, as you had the means to defend yourself and they took it away.

Haha, yea yea that is the hard part. But if a lion is on your back, are you really going to scratch it and hope for the best? No, I think you would go for the face/eyes and strangle it if you could. I hadn't thought of pepper spray, but that probably would be a very good alternative. I know for a fact we don't have any on-site, but perhaps we should get some.



A Crossbreed Supertuck (http://www.crossbreedholsters.com/SuperTuckDeluxe/tabid/90/List/0/ProductID/1/CategoryID/1/Level/1/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName) with the optional velcro belt clips (http://www.crossbreedholsters.com/Portals/0/images/V-Clip_Details.jpg) on a good belt (http://www.thebeltman.net/) will comfortably conceal a G23 pretty doggone well (even in a "tucked in shirt and khakis" environment).

If you're looking for a good excuse for a new gun, a G27 will conceal a little better (or a Walther PPS, Kahr P40 one of a dozen other more concealable pieces in .40).

If you're really all that concerned about discovery, I'd only pack the piece on your night shifts and keep it in the car for your day shifts (that way you're reducing your risk of being found out).


Concealed means concealed ... keep the gun covered and your mouth shut. The only reason your co-workers or bosses should ever find out you've been packing is because you've shot a mountain lion trying to eat you (even then I'm not sure I'd say anything ... the "Three S's" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting,_shoveling,_and_shutting_up) are a good rule when dealing with your livelihood).


I'm wondering if for wildlife you might want to consider loading up with FMJs instead of the usual JHP load we usually carry for self defense (I'm thinking with larger animals, penetration is a good thing).

I've got a supertuck for my G23, but I'm 6'2" and weigh 155lbs, so my skinny frame it is even rather apparent. I've wanted to get a G27 but it hasn't been in the budget lately. I don't work day shifts ever, I only work 2 night shifts per month, in total of 8 days worked per month. Probably true regarding FMJ's though, I do think that the best penetration I could get is what I need. Also, I read that if you're in an attack with a bear, you don't aim for the head, you aim for the snout. If I recall, its because the skull thickness at the forehead of a bear is very thick and near impossible to penetrate.



Lots of good recommendations so far. Basically have to be willing to pay the consequences of your actions. Ignorance of a policy won't likely help.

"...mountain lions are very easy to strangle."

Made me laugh because I was just doing some training for some folks heading to Alaska and their company requires them to have at least one person with a Mossberg 590 at all times. One of the individuals commented he read about someone killing a bear with a knife. I told him that was a great story and if he wanted to give it a try I'd also love to read about it and look at the pictures, but I wanted to read about that guy not be that guy.

I used to belong to an astronomy club and have an 8" dob if you need to use it some time just let me know. [Neene3]

Very true, but if they don't make the policies easy to access or obviously applicable to our unique work environment. Haha, makes sense in Alaska, but if all I had was a knife and was being attacked by a bear, you can bet your ass that I'd be stabbing that thing as fast as I could!

Awesome! We have several 8,10 and 12" telescopes on site for use, I also have full access to a 24" telescope on site for my own personal research if I want it. Telescopes are very awesome and I never pass up the opportunity to look through one!



Thanks for all the replies everyone! Keep them coming if you have other opinions!

[trlcavscout]

Hi All, so eg_btr's post about his boss possibly being anti-gun got me thinking about my situation.

I have to go in full depth about it here, my workplace is quite unique.

Basically, I am employed by New Mexico State University, but I work at an observatory which is on national forest land, and our buildings are owned by the a university research group ( 8-10 universities that participate in research, giving us either money for operations, instruments or scientists). So technically, the buildings are not the property of NMSU. There are no signs whatsoever on the buildings mentioning firearms.

Here's where it gets more real. I am an observer, so I work nights. One shift is 4 nights in a row, with each shift lasting 16hrs. On my telescope, there are two observers who rotate being the warm and cold observers. The cold observer has to go outside roughly once per hour to change instruments (cartridges) on the telescope. There are no lights, all we have is a red headlight that puts out very little light.

The observatory is, like I said, in a national forest. We are at 9,000ft and have bears, mountain lions, bobcats, cows, elk, deer, turkeys and the occasional ufo. I am worried that as the cold observer one night, a mountain lion will stalk me and attack. Since they always attack from behind, I wouldn't see it coming. Not to mention, towards the end of a 16hr shift, you start to get a little exhausted and tired, and your full wits are not about you.

So, do I carry my pistol (legally of course, have my ccw) with me at all times? Or do I only bring it when I'm the cold observer (first and third night of each shift) and have to walk outside? Do I approach my boss and ask about the sites firearm policy? For the record, the nearest towns are 700 people (where I live, still in the mtns at 9kft) and 30k people which is down in the desert valley with White Sands Missile Range. Everyone around here is very progun, and there are TONS of hunters who hunt up in the mtns around our observatory.

I could either carry my G23 or LCP, but the G23 would be rather hard to conceal when I take off my cold weather gear after coming back inside. Then again, that begs the question of whether an LCP would even be useful against a mountain lion or bear.

Thoughts?

I would trade the G23 for a G33 and carry it if it was me.

[brutal]

I would be more worried about someone in the chain of command or university system picking up on a public internet post that has so much detail in it so as to identify oneself.

[BuffCyclist]

I would be more worried about someone in the chain of command or university system picking up on a public internet post that has so much detail in it so as to identify oneself.

Yea well I was in my first post, then someone asked me more about what it is I do, and kinda went into more detail. I haven't admitted to carrying, which is because I don't know how it applies here, hence this thread.

[Zundfolge]

I've got a supertuck for my G23, but I'm 6'2" and weigh 155lbs, so my skinny frame it is even rather apparent. I've wanted to get a G27 but it hasn't been in the budget lately.
Excellent ... when you get the budget for it your G23 Supertuck will carry your G27 nicely.

As for hiding the G23, with the V clips (the velcro ones that go behind the belt) and your shirt tucked in and bloused out a bit I think you'll be surprised how well you can conceal it.

Honestly most of concealment is mindset. I know folk who open carry who are amazed how few people notice it.

[BuffCyclist]

Excellent ... when you get the budget for it your G23 Supertuck will carry your G27 nicely.

As for hiding the G23, with the V clips (the velcro ones that go behind the belt) and your shirt tucked in and bloused out a bit I think you'll be surprised how well you can conceal it.

Honestly most of concealment is mindset. I know folk who open carry who are amazed how few people notice it.

That is probably very true. I know its there, so the slight edge sticking out of my shirt is easily noticeable to me, but my girlfriend didn't notice it one time until she hugged me and wondered what was on my back.

But as far as dress goes, shirt tucked in?! I wear jeans daily, with whatever shirt I want, even tshirts (then again, I am only 26yo so it might be common knowledge that all 26yo's wear only tshirts lol). I have some button up shirts that fit a bit looser and when I wear those I feel more comfortable while carrying. I have heard of people open carrying before and others not noticing it, probably just my ccw training that has taught me to be looking at other people for concealed firearms to see if I can notice them. So far, I haven't noticed anyone, but have noticed several people open carrying quite often.

[Zundfolge]

But as far as dress goes, shirt tucked in?! I wear jeans daily, with whatever shirt I want, even tshirts.
Well then you're way ahead of the game.

I generally wear jeans or sometimes khakis at work with untucked shirts (darker shirts with patterns or plaid work best). Some days I pack a full size CZ75 too (makes your Glock look downright dinky :D).

I've carried the CZ while wearing just a t shirt (well, pants too) and it stays well hidden. Most days I carry a Steyr S40 which is somewhere between the size of your G23 and a G27 and I can easily get away with wearing just a t shirt with it.

I'm 5' 11" and about 190. Pretty much average build.


How often do you carry when not at work? I carry pretty much 24/7/365 and the more you carry the easier/more comfortable it gets.

[BuffCyclist]

Well then you're way ahead of the game.

I generally wear jeans or sometimes khakis at work with untucked shirts (darker shirts with patterns or plaid work best). Some days I pack a full size CZ75 too (makes your Glock look downright dinky :D).

I've carried the CZ while wearing just a t shirt (well, pants too) and it stays well hidden. Most days I carry a Steyr S40 which is somewhere between the size of your G23 and a G27 and I can easily get away with wearing just a t shirt with it.

I'm 5' 11" and about 190. Pretty much average build.


How often do you carry when not at work? I carry pretty much 24/7/365 and the more you carry the easier/more comfortable it gets.

I carry a majority of the time, but not when I go down to my girlfriends house. Her dad is quite anti-gun (she lives with her parents) and I wouldn't feel right bringing a gun into his home. Especially since I'll be asking his permission for her hand in marriage within the next 6mo or so (hopefully...unless I end up buying a G27, then the ring will have to wait a while [ROFL2] ). But, the thing is that I feel like my G23 sticks out a ton when I'm sitting down, and I sit at a desk in the control room all night long (except when I go outside). So thats what I worry about the most.

[Seamonkey]

This --->

In all seriousness, I'd certainly ask if anyone has ever thought of the possibility of a predator attack- and had any plans for how to handle it? At least pepper spray would be better than nothing.
I don't have any scientific data to refer to but I'm quite sure any animal isn't going to appreciate a shot of bear spray (2 or 4 legged). As someone else said you can do the "seen plenty of lions and tigers and bears oh my" which, is true. Also gives you something to have in your car or bag when you don't or can't carry. If you're at her dad's house and he happens to see a can of bear spray in your bag the honest and truthful answer is "lions and tigers and bears oh my". Just cause it says "bear" spray doesn't mean it won't work on 2 legged critters.





I agree that in reality, it would be nearly impossible to strangle a cat while its on your back clawing you to death, but who knows. I think if you're already in that situation, nothing could hurt your cause.


See, you've got the wrong mind set here. YOU should be the one stalking the cat and YOU should be the one on it's back!![ROFL3]

[Zundfolge]

But, the thing is that I feel like my G23 sticks out a ton when I'm sitting down, and I sit at a desk in the control room all night long (except when I go outside). So thats what I worry about the most.

What position do you carry in?

When I started carrying eons ago I wore the gun in the 4 o'clock position ... that's what a lot of people do. I quickly discovered that the 3 o'clock position concealed much better, especially when sitting (and you can get to the gun easier when seated). Your arm covers it so it's well hidden when walking (and you can keep your cover shirt from blowing up on a windy day without being as obvious).

As for the anti-gun future Father-in-law ... good luck with that [Tooth]

[brutal]

What position do you carry in?

When I started carrying eons ago I wore the gun in the 4 o'clock position ... that's what a lot of people do. I quickly discovered that the 3 o'clock position concealed much better, especially when sitting (and you can get to the gun easier when seated). Your arm covers it so it's well hidden when walking (and you can keep your cover shirt from blowing up on a windy day without being as obvious).

As for the anti-gun future Father-in-law ... good luck with that [Tooth]

There's a reason so many carry at 4 o'clock. If you carry at 3 o'clock, and your strong hand is incapacitated, how will you draw with your weak hand?

[Irving]

You should jokingly suggest that you guys get an office 870, to be kept in a locker by the door. Also suggest that every two man team be backed up by a third guy with the 870 to keep watch.

[Zundfolge]

There's a reason so many carry at 4 o'clock. If you carry at 3 o'clock, and your strong hand is incapacitated, how will you draw with your weak hand?
Using Clint Smith's method its just as easy to draw a gun in the 3 o'clock position with my weak hand as one in 4 o'clock (and even easier when seated).

[Aloha_Shooter]

I don't think there are provisions in place. The site director is the fire chief at a local volunteer fire dept. But its 1hr from here to the nearest hospital and 30min for an ambulance to get here (at the fastest). I know the university has a policy, just hoping the university rules don't actually apply here.

The point wasn't really to get provisions or a plan -- it was pretty clear from what you said that they didn't have a plan -- it was to get their minds thinking and realizing they DON'T have a plan. Once they admit that, it's open door for you to follow up ... "well gee, what do I do if I'm out there alone and face-to-face with mountain lion?"

Once they realize they have a liability issue on their hands, the fact that you can provide for your own welfare may be welcome relief.

[DeadElephant]

Can I sneak in some night and set my dob up outside the door to the 3.5.

I'll tell all the grad students its a special research project and I'll cover your back when you need to go outside.

Great viewing at APO!

[BuffCyclist]

What position do you carry in?

When I started carrying eons ago I wore the gun in the 4 o'clock position ... that's what a lot of people do. I quickly discovered that the 3 o'clock position concealed much better, especially when sitting (and you can get to the gun easier when seated). Your arm covers it so it's well hidden when walking (and you can keep your cover shirt from blowing up on a windy day without being as obvious).

As for the anti-gun future Father-in-law ... good luck with that [Tooth]

I wore it at 4, but tried it at 3 and I agree, it is much easier to conceal that way. Only problem though is my bony hips make it a little uncomfortable, but I have a feeling I can figure that out with some tweaking of the belt loop positions. Thanks for the tip!




The point wasn't really to get provisions or a plan -- it was pretty clear from what you said that they didn't have a plan -- it was to get their minds thinking and realizing they DON'T have a plan. Once they admit that, it's open door for you to follow up ... "well gee, what do I do if I'm out there alone and face-to-face with mountain lion?"

Once they realize they have a liability issue on their hands, the fact that you can provide for your own welfare may be welcome relief.

That is true, it probably would get them thinking. But they'll probably bring up that they've been there for nearly 14 years and never had a problem, so why think one would happen now.




Can I sneak in some night and set my dob up outside the door to the 3.5.

I'll tell all the grad students its a special research project and I'll cover your back when you need to go outside.

Great viewing at APO!

We don't have any grad students on-site, so you'd really just have to clear it with the observers. But, unless its for research or you're a member of the university research group, I doubt they'll let you since it's closed off to the public at night. Would be awesome to have my own personal lionsniper though! I take it you've been to the site before?

[TFOGGER]

But they'll probably bring up that they've been there for nearly 14 years and never had a problem, so why think one would happen now.

The average bank gets robbed once every 41 years, but they still have armed guards...

[BuffCyclist]

The average bank gets robbed once every 41 years, but they still have armed guards...

Interesting fact. Perhaps thats my way in... compile a list of statistics on violent and/or deadly animal attacks in the wild and other various scenarios. Since they're all scientists up there, statistics would definitely have more leverage.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Interesting fact. Perhaps thats my way in... compile a list of statistics on violent and/or deadly animal attacks in the wild and other various scenarios. Since they're all scientists up there, statistics would definitely have more leverage.

Yep ... and once they start thinking about that, then realize they can't afford a security guard, you can start asking ... "well ... can we do something to protect ourselves?" Prediction: You're going to find some new bestest buds for observation periods. :D

[Geology Rocks]

Hi. I am here for the UFO pictures and story.

joe

[BuffCyclist]

Hi. I am here for the UFO pictures and story.

joe

Haha, unfortunately I don't have a picture of it. But the story is that I was out one night with my girlfriend, enjoying the beautiful night sky and looking up at the dark sky.

What I saw was this, a really bright object flying across the sky at incredibly slow speeds (like slower than seeing an airliner fly). It also started out as an odd green color, and then later, it sped up and changed to a purple color. Then it disappeared.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Haha, unfortunately I don't have a picture of it. But the story is that I was out one night with my girlfriend, enjoying the beautiful night sky and looking up at the dark sky.

What I saw was this, a really bright object flying across the sky at incredibly slow speeds (like slower than seeing an airliner fly). It also started out as an odd green color, and then later, it sped up and changed to a purple color. Then it disappeared.

Reading this just gave me flashbacks to the Deadliest Catch episode where Time Bandit was messing around with the Northern using those candle-powered hot-air mini-balloons. They lit a mess of them so they'd drift over the Northern then went lights out to wait for Sig's reaction.

[tonantius]

How about a night vision rig and you can look for animals in the dark before proceeding? The heat signature from a lion or bear should show up.

[BuffCyclist]

How about a night vision rig and you can look for animals in the dark before proceeding? The heat signature from a lion or bear should show up.

Well actually, speaking of that. I recently tried getting them to splurge on an incredibly nice IR camera to find the source of a light leak that we were noticing on one of our new instruments. This instrument observes in the IR, so is extremely sensitive to IR light leaks that we can't see. I was THIS CLOSE to getting them to buy it, then someone else found the source of the light leak that I had already seen... [Rant2]

[tonantius]

Well actually, speaking of that. I recently tried getting them to splurge on an incredibly nice IR camera to find the source of a light leak that we were noticing on one of our new instruments. This instrument observes in the IR, so is extremely sensitive to IR light leaks that we can't see. I was THIS CLOSE to getting them to buy it, then someone else found the source of the light leak that I had already seen... [Rant2]


DOH!