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View Full Version : Why do people keep bashing the TSA?



TFOGGER
10-24-2011, 18:00
They're doing a "bang up" job of keeping us safe...

http://gawker.com/5852548/loaded-gun-slips-by-tsa-again


http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/tsa-vibrator/

DD977GM2
10-24-2011, 18:08
A Huge shout out to TSA



**** *** *********** ** *** ** * ****

Elhuero
10-24-2011, 18:48
it's still politically correct/acceptable to bash TSA.

now, if you're less than praising about police....

roberth
10-24-2011, 18:52
TSA - Too Stupid for Arby's

The TSA is like DHS, just another useless government entity designed to confiscate our liberty and our money.

Guylee
10-24-2011, 18:55
Talk about a useless entity.

cstone
10-24-2011, 19:01
TSA is a part of DHS.

Somewhere between anarchy and a police state is a list of agencies which the majority of people can agree upon. This list would contain all of the government agencies who; provide a useful service, provide that service effectively and efficiently, and do so with fewer mistakes than successes.

Someone should start that list. I will go first:
City and County wastewater management

roberth
10-24-2011, 20:23
TSA is a part of DHS.

My mistake.

Byte Stryke
10-24-2011, 20:52
TSA is a part of DHS.




which only serves to compound the injury with insult.

TEAMRICO
10-24-2011, 21:08
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/24/sexy-toy-discovery-leads-to-note-from-tsa-screener-woman-claims/

And this........

cstone
10-24-2011, 21:09
The Coast Guard is part of DHS. Is the Coast Guard bad? Does anyone like the Secret Service? They are part of DHS.

I'm just trying to find out if there is anyone here who likes any federal government agency. [Beer]

Bailey Guns
10-24-2011, 21:12
I really like the Dept of Leave Me The Hell Alone.

trlcavscout
10-24-2011, 21:14
The Coast Guard is part of DHS. Is the Coast Guard bad? Does anyone like the Secret Service? They are part of DHS.

I'm just trying to find out if there is anyone here who likes any federal government agency. [Beer]

I dont think most people here like anything let alone the gubment?

tmleadr03
10-24-2011, 21:15
The Coast Guard is part of DHS. Is the Coast Guard bad? Does anyone like the Secret Service? They are part of DHS.

I'm just trying to find out if there is anyone here who likes any federal government agency. [Beer]

I am kinda fond of the Marine Corps...

cstone
10-24-2011, 21:27
I am kinda fond of the Marine Corps...

I intentionally did not mention the Department of Defense. It is the part of the federal government so many of us have been employed by at some point in our lives. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but it seems true to me so I will say it here; the beast looks different from the inside. I'm not saying it is better, but what I see in almost every federal agency, state or local agency, and business for that matter is, they come down to the people who make them work. If the leadership of a company changes, the company changes. If the rank and file changes, the organization changes.

There was a time when parts of our military were not too healthy. It doesn't mean that I would do without them.

To all who have served our Republic, thank you. YOU are what makes US strong![Flower]

Sharpienads
10-24-2011, 23:15
Somewhere between anarchy and a police state is a list of agencies which the majority of people can agree upon. This list would contain all of the government agencies who; provide a useful service, provide that service effectively and efficiently, and do so with fewer mistakes than successes.

Someone should start that list. I will go first:
City and County wastewater management

And this right here is exactly what is wrong with America. It doesn't matter if a majority of people like a certain federal agency. America was founded on rule of law, codified in the constitution, and is a republic, not a democracy. If it's not in the constitution, the federal government can't do it until it gets put in the constitution. It matters not if a majority of people like it.

And then your example is is a local government issue. Just because we don't like the federal government doing something doesn't mean we don't want it done.

cstone
10-24-2011, 23:37
If it's not in the constitution, the federal government can't do it until it gets put in the constitution.

I'm going to call that a bit overly simplistic. There is no possible way our Founding Fathers could anticipate everything that would happen 300 years into the future. The US Constitution is amended and interpreted to allow for changes in culture and circumstances. I just don't believe that everything should be or needs to be explicitly spelled out in the Constitution.

My point was not to focus on any particular agency, but to flip the coin over and see if there was anyone who actually had anything positive to say about any government agency, federal, state, or local.

I can't possibly be the only person who looks at our country and still believe that it is the greatest possible place to live both in history and geographically. The US is exceptional. Not because of our government, but despite our government. We the People are exceptional when we stop bitching and start creating.

Don't get me wrong, I do my fair share of complaining (and then some), but I've never forgotten a lesson I was taught many years ago. You can do nothing and you have no one to blame but yourself. You can do something and deal with your successes and failures as they come. You can complain about things you don't like. These are not mutually exclusive. I don't mind complaining, as long as you are doing something while you complain. Of course we each make our own choices. Yet one more thing to like about America. [Beer]

If someone decides they don't like something because it isn't perfect, I would have to assume they deal with a bit of self-loathing.

Irving
10-25-2011, 00:31
I'm going to call that a bit overly simplistic. There is no possible way our Founding Fathers could anticipate everything that would happen 300 years into the future. The US Constitution is amended and interpreted to allow for changes in culture and circumstances. I just don't believe that everything should be or needs to be explicitly spelled out in the Constitution.



This always seemed like a cop out to me. There is no way that the Founding Fathers needed, nor intended to anticipate changes in the future. They wrote the Constitution in such a manner that it could be used to justly rule a country regardless of the existence of Youtube, Ponzi schemes, an illegal drug trade, etc.

I think you are absolutely correct that the way an agency is run depends on who is in charge, but because people aren't being thrown into prison for the way that they run their agencies, things aren't going to change. I'm trying to find a story I heard on NPR the other night to post here, as it exactly illustrates both your, and my point, but I can't seem to find it.

Sharpienads
10-25-2011, 00:39
I'm going to call that a bit overly simplistic. There is no possible way our Founding Fathers could anticipate everything that would happen 300 years into the future. The US Constitution is amended and interpreted to allow for changes in culture and circumstances. I just don't believe that everything should be or needs to be explicitly spelled out in the Constitution.

My point was not to focus on any particular agency, but to flip the coin over and see if there was anyone who actually had anything positive to say about any government agency, federal, state, or local.

I can't possibly be the only person who looks at our country and still believe that it is the greatest possible place to live both in history and geographically. The US is exceptional. Not because of our government, but despite our government. We the People are exceptional when we stop bitching and start creating.

Don't get me wrong, I do my fair share of complaining (and then some), but I've never forgotten a lesson I was taught many years ago. You can do nothing and you have no one to blame but yourself. You can do something and deal with your successes and failures as they come. You can complain about things you don't like. These are not mutually exclusive. I don't mind complaining, as long as you are doing something while you complain. Of course we each make our own choices. Yet one more thing to like about America. [Beer]

If someone decides they don't like something because it isn't perfect, I would have to assume they deal with a bit of self-loathing.

It's not overly simplistic. It's called federalism. The federal government is bound by the constitution, specifically Article 1, Section 8. There are 18 enumerated powers that congress has. Everything else is left up to the States.

The founding fathers didn't have to predict the future. Name one thing that they couldn't have possibly known about that isn't covered by Article 1, Section 8 or the 10th Amendment. The federal government is meant to have limited powers, and that is why they are and must be explicitly spelled out in the constitution.

And the concept of a "living constitution" is contradictory to the rule of law. There is a way to change the constitution and it's spelled out in Article 5. The constitution isn't reinterpreted with a change in "culture and circumstances". No branch of government has the power to reinterpret the constitution.

I can tolerate federal government agencies that are authorized by the constitution. Anything beyond that is unacceptable, regardless of how I feel about it or how popular it is.

roberth
10-25-2011, 05:13
I can tolerate federal government agencies that are authorized by the constitution. Anything beyond that is unacceptable, regardless of how I feel about it or how popular it is.

Right, it isn't about feelings like quite a few people (mostly liberals) want it to be. Feelings don't matter, behaviour is what matters.

The United States is about the rule of law, that is why we're a constitutional republic with democratic institutions and not a pure democracy (rule of mob).

roberth
10-25-2011, 05:15
I really like the Dept of Leave Me The Hell Alone.

Exactly right.

cstone
10-25-2011, 08:36
The founding fathers didn't have to predict the future. Name one thing that they couldn't have possibly known about that isn't covered by Article 1, Section 8 or the 10th Amendment. The federal government is meant to have limited powers, and that is why they are and must be explicitly spelled out in the constitution.

The Civil War, end of slavery, and making former slaves into full US citizens. I named three. Many of the Founding Fathers foresaw these things but they were not able to address them without compromise. If the northern states had insisted on what they saw as inevitable, the Union would not exist.

The US Constitution was created to replace a very weak government originally founded under the Articles of Confederation. When eleven states decided that they wished to return to that weaker form of government, the rest of the Union resisted and forcibly returned those states to the Union despite what you read in the 10th Amendment.

We are where we are and going back doesn't seem to be an option unless you would choose to sacrifice the Union of our country. So where we go from here seems to be a function of what kind of People are We and where do we want to go. This is the will of the people and it is as fickle as any other kind of popularity.

I hope you are enjoying the discussion as much as I am. [Beer]

I will list another agency I like:
Bureau of the Public Debt
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/

TSOTSI
10-25-2011, 09:00
Classic TSA candidate

OW56Z-0xwIQ

Sharpienads
10-25-2011, 09:40
The Civil War, end of slavery, and making former slaves into full US citizens. I named three. Many of the Founding Fathers foresaw these things but they were not able to address them without compromise. If the northern states had insisted on what they saw as inevitable, the Union would not exist.

The US Constitution was created to replace a very weak government originally founded under the Articles of Confederation. When eleven states decided that they wished to return to that weaker form of government, the rest of the Union resisted and forcibly returned those states to the Union despite what you read in the 10th Amendment.

We are where we are and going back doesn't seem to be an option unless you would choose to sacrifice the Union of our country. So where we go from here seems to be a function of what kind of People are We and where do we want to go. This is the will of the people and it is as fickle as any other kind of popularity.

I hope you are enjoying the discussion as much as I am. [Beer]

I will list another agency I like:
Bureau of the Public Debt
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/

The end of slavery and making former slaves US citizens were added to the constitution by the 13th and 14th amendments respectively, not by a change in culture or circumstance. This would be an example of the federal government abiding by the constitution and doing things the right way.

Embracing federalism doesn't mean sacrificing the Union or going back to anything except more liberty and more responsive government. If where we are is where we want to be, why doesn't the federal government do things by the book? The FDA, EPA, Dep of Education, Energy, Agriculture, Social Security, Obamacare... all unconstitutional. If we want these things so bad, why weren't amendments added to make them constitutional? Should be pretty easy since they're so popular and everybody thinks they're such a good idea.

Ronin13
10-25-2011, 09:46
The Coast Guard is part of DHS. Is the Coast Guard bad? Does anyone like the Secret Service? They are part of DHS.

I'm just trying to find out if there is anyone here who likes any federal government agency. [Beer]

DHS has a few good agencies- CG, SS (not just because of protection but their original reason for creation, to keep funny money out of circulation)... I also think with a few more restrictions and limits the FBI can be good, CIA, and again more restrictions the NSA is very useful. Here's my short list of what I think are pretty decent agencies:
USGS, USFS, US Geo-spacial Intelligence Agency, DOD, DIA, NOAA, FWS, NPS and that's about all I can think of right now...
Here's what need to go, preferably now:
MPAA, and RIAA(not gov but still needs to go away), FCC, TSA, NDIC, DEA, MBDA, and a few more but these top the list. And with the money and people let go by the now defunct DEA I'd say put that money into the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.

cstone
10-25-2011, 09:55
The end of slavery and making former slaves US citizens were added to the constitution by the 13th and 14th amendments respectively, not by a change in culture or circumstance. This would be an example of the federal government abiding by the constitution and doing things the right way.

Embracing federalism doesn't mean sacrificing the Union or going back to anything except more liberty and more responsive government. If where we are is where we want to be, why doesn't the federal government do things by the book? The FDA, EPA, Dep of Education, Energy, Agriculture, Social Security, Obamacare... all unconstitutional. If we want these things so bad, why weren't amendments added to make them constitutional? Should be pretty easy since they're so popular and everybody thinks they're such a good idea.

What are your thoughts on the US Supreme Court? Is the federal judiciary an equal branch of government?

I consider myself a strict constructionist when it comes to the Constitution, however, I don't believe every agency of the federal government needs a Constitutional amendment to exist. I am guessing we would disagree in that area. [Beer]

It isn't easy to amend the Constitution. It also isn't easy to alter any government bureaucracy. Historically it is easier to do the latter rather than the former. Congress can and does (occasionally) dissolve government agencies. Getting back to the topic of the TSA, I actually foresee a day when the makeup of Congress will change and the TSA will either change drastically or go away completely. I won't shed any tears on that day, as I'm sure many of you won't either.

Should aviation specifically, and transportation in general be protected from attack? If you think it should, then who should be entrusted with that mission and who should pay for it?

cstone
10-25-2011, 10:03
DHS has a few good agencies- CG, SS (not just because of protection but their original reason for creation, to keep funny money out of circulation)... I also think with a few more restrictions and limits the FBI can be good, CIA, and again more restrictions the NSA is very useful. Here's my short list of what I think are pretty decent agencies:
USGS, USFS, US Geo-spacial Intelligence Agency, DOD, DIA, NOAA, FWS, NPS and that's about all I can think of right now...
Here's what need to go, preferably now:
MPAA, and RIAA(not gov but still needs to go away), FCC, TSA, NDIC, DEA, MBDA, and a few more but these top the list. And with the money and people let go by the now defunct DEA I'd say put that money into the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.

Thanks for sharing your list. It is nice for some of us to know that not every federal employee is useless and that the entire federal government isn't a wasteland full of corruption (only parts of it [ROFL1]).

For anyone else considering what if any government agencies are useful, I would caution that what you consider to be valuable says as much about you and what you value as it does the agencies you choose.

Every agency (federal, state, and local) exists because someone thought the agency would be valuable and necessary. Every law exists because someone, somewhere did something stupid and harmful to someone.

Sharpienads
10-25-2011, 10:14
What are your thoughts on the US Supreme Court? Is the federal judiciary an equal branch of government?

I consider myself a strict constructionist when it comes to the Constitution, however, I don't believe every agency of the federal government needs a Constitutional amendment to exist. I am guessing we would disagree in that area. [Beer]

It isn't easy to amend the Constitution. It also isn't easy to alter any government bureaucracy. Historically it is easier to do the latter rather than the former. Congress can and does (occasionally) dissolve government agencies. Getting back to the topic of the TSA, I actually foresee a day when the makeup of Congress will change and the TSA will either change drastically or go away completely. I won't shed any tears on that day, as I'm sure many of you won't either.

Should aviation specifically, and transportation in general be protected from attack? If you think it should, then who should be entrusted with that mission and who should pay for it?

Yes the Supreme Court is an equal branch of government.

Not every agency needs a constitutional amendment, but it still needs constitutional authority. For example, the second enumerated power:

"The Congress shall have the power to... borrow money on the credit of the United States"

Under this enumerated power you could have the Treasury Department and the Bureau of the Public Debt and probably a couple of other agencies. Nowhere in the constitution do you find anything related to education, energy, agriculture, pollution, etc.

You're right, it's not easy to amend the constitution. It was designed that way. Unfortunately, instead of that being a roadblock to bigger government, it encourages congress to just bypass the amendment process.

Of course aviation should be protected from attack. Again, just because I don't want the federal government to do something doesn't mean I don't want it done. The States can figure that one out. If each State had it's own "TSA" at their airports that would be fine and totally constitutional. Or they can contract it out. I don't really care how they do it, but the TSA has to go.

Sharpienads
10-25-2011, 10:22
I just looked it up... 480 federal departments and agencies. 11 pages worth of departments and agencies, Times New Roman font, size 12, single spaced, one inch margins.

All this from 18 enumerated powers...

Ridiculous. [Rant1]

TFOGGER
10-25-2011, 10:25
Thanks for sharing your list. It is nice for some of us to know that not every federal employee is useless and that the entire federal government isn't a wasteland full of corruption (only parts of it [ROFL1]).
On the other hand, most services the government administers could be done more efficiently by the private sector

For anyone else considering what if any government agencies are useful, I would caution that what you consider to be valuable says as much about you and what you value as it does the agencies you choose.

Every agency (federal, state, and local) exists because someone thought the agency would be valuable and necessary. Every law exists because someone, somewhere did something stupid and harmful to someone.
Yet not every wrong should require a new law, particularly when it was against laws already on the books. This is why the United States Code is now over 45,000 pages.

I'm a big believer in federalism and the 10th Amendment. DHS is an illegal, unconstitutional conglomeration of mostly unconstitutional agencies, given sweeping and overweening power by the Patriot act and other legislation in the wake of 9/11. W's regime was no less adept at taking advantage of crises than Oblowme's. In my opinion(worth even less than what you're paying for it), Federal power needs to be rolled back to about where it was in 1910. Obviously, there would need to be updates to the responsibilities of some departments (transportation and technology have evolved), but the USG has exceeded its authority in asserting control over almost every aspect of our lives.

tonantius
10-25-2011, 10:30
I would say that we could eliminate a bunch of federal agencies and whole departments and this would positively impact our economy.

OneGuy67
10-25-2011, 10:40
Good conversation going on. I applaud the mature, detailed arguments between CStone and Sharpienads.

trlcavscout
10-25-2011, 10:41
DHS has a few good agencies- CG, SS (not just because of protection but their original reason for creation, to keep funny money out of circulation)... I also think with a few more restrictions and limits the FBI can be good, CIA, and again more restrictions the NSA is very useful. Here's my short list of what I think are pretty decent agencies:
USGS, USFS, US Geo-spacial Intelligence Agency, DOD, DIA, NOAA, FWS, NPS and that's about all I can think of right now...
Here's what need to go, preferably now:
MPAA, and RIAA(not gov but still needs to go away), FCC, TSA, NDIC, DEA, MBDA, and a few more but these top the list. And with the money and people let go by the now defunct DEA I'd say put that money into the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.


I would rather the ATF be gone then the DEA. If they can deliver it people will use it.

USDA would be all right if they would get my home loan done!

And as far as wasted gov resources the USPS could go away, all they deliver to me is junk mail that I then have to recycle.

TSA would be good if it was tweaked in my opinion, as well as FBI/CIA. SS is a necessity. FCC is also a necesary evil, but should be slapped around and put in its place.

I believe the DOJ is the most corrupt. Makeing a law that says its ok for federal agencies to lie about records to US citizens?

OneGuy67
10-25-2011, 10:49
USDA would be all right if they would get my home loan done!

What does the Department of Agriculture have to do with your home loan? [Poke]

Sharpienads
10-25-2011, 10:58
What does the Department of Agriculture have to do with your home loan? [Poke]

Exactly. And why is the Dep of Education conducting armed raids?

http://www.news10.net/news/local/article/141108/2/Questions-surround-feds-raid-of-Stockton-home

trlcavscout
10-25-2011, 10:59
What does the Department of Agriculture have to do with your home loan? [Poke]

HAHA! Little do most people know they do "rural development" loans. Home loans for smaller towns/rural areas.

But I turned in my app the end of August, they pulled my credit a week and a half ago and I still havent heard anything! Normal gov hurry up and wait.

trlcavscout
10-25-2011, 11:03
Exactly. And why is the Dep of Education conducting armed raids?

http://www.news10.net/news/local/article/141108/2/Questions-surround-feds-raid-of-Stockton-home

Maybe she cheated on a test? That is a good question?

sniper7
10-25-2011, 11:03
Shouldn't be an issue at all. It was in a checked bag. I have had thousands of guns on my planes. The TSA is and will continue to be a massive waste of money and resources.

Sharpienads
10-25-2011, 11:11
HAHA! Little do most people know they do "rural development" loans. Home loans for smaller towns/rural areas.

But I turned in my app the end of August, they pulled my credit a week and a half ago and I still havent heard anything! Normal gov hurry up and wait.

I knew the USDA did this... there was a big thing about it earlier this year because whoever was running it admitted that she was giving preferential treatment to blacks who applied (she is black) and then had change of heart and saw the error of her ways. I can't remember her name. I guess I could google it...

But this is a classic example of what we're talking about. There's no mention of agriculture in the constitution, and even if there was, why are they giving home loans? What business does the federal government have giving home loans in the first place?

trlcavscout
10-25-2011, 11:19
I knew the USDA did this... there was a big thing about it earlier this year because whoever was running it admitted that she was giving preferential treatment to blacks who applied (she is black) and then had change of heart and saw the error of her ways. I can't remember her name. I guess I could google it...

But this is a classic example of what we're talking about. There's no mention of agriculture in the constitution, and even if there was, why are they giving home loans? What business does the federal government have giving home loans in the first place?

I see why they say they do it to get more people to move to rural areas. I also see how the preferential treatment works. Last year I was denied for the loan, so I have fixed every reason they denied me for. I resubmitted my packet with all the info including their denial letter from last time with proof its all taken care of. So I will see if I get approved this time. But yes all the people I know of that have gotten this loan are hispanic/black. It should be called the "rural non-honkey" loan.

cstone
10-25-2011, 12:01
Not only does the USDA run the rural loan program, but most of the rest of the federal employees are paid by the USDA. The National Finance Center: https://www.nfc.usda.gov/ direct deposits my check (thanks to all of those who pay taxes on behalf of me and my family) every two weeks. Since Agriculture pays us, some of us have speculated that money really must grow on trees.

Any other federal, state, or local agencies anyone likes? I grew up pretty close to Ft Meade, so my first government application was submitted to NSA. An excellent place to work, especially if you have a language aptitude.

cstone
10-25-2011, 12:03
Shouldn't be an issue at all. It was in a checked bag. I have had thousands of guns on my planes. The TSA is and will continue to be a massive waste of money and resources.

What did you think about the government subsidies provided to airlines after 9/11? I bet you have an opinion about the FAA as well.

OneGuy67
10-25-2011, 12:24
HAHA! Little do most people know they do "rural development" loans. Home loans for smaller towns/rural areas.

But I turned in my app the end of August, they pulled my credit a week and a half ago and I still havent heard anything! Normal gov hurry up and wait.

Good to know! I wasn't aware of that.

Ronin13
10-25-2011, 13:01
What did you think about the government subsidies provided to airlines after 9/11? I bet you have an opinion about the FAA as well.

I have an opinion about the FAA- and it's not good. I have some friends who are pilots that can only work for small companies flying small planes because the FAA is changing the rules on how to become commercially licensed for all flight crew- meaning X amount of hours for everyone, not just captains (like it used to be before this new mandate is slated to take effect soon). Basically making it impossible for anyone to become at commercial pilot unless they have a lot of money to get the hours. So a first officer and 2nd officer need to have the same hours as the captain in order to get the position, where it used to be you needed x hours to become a captain so you were a 1st or 2nd officer for a few years to work your way up. And I hear most of the FAA guys are not even pilots, they're mostly bureaucrats.

And my adding the DEA to the list is about ending the drug war. Waste of money, waste of good cops' time, and leads to corruption in LE..