View Full Version : Lefthand Cleanup 12-30-06
newracer
12-18-2006, 01:04
The 4x4 crowd is organizing a cleanup. Most think the gun crowd are irresponsible. Maybe we can show them otherwise.
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=82667
Not to piss on Your charcol but, the last time this happened, Only two of us "shooters" showed up. and the "4 Wheelies" didn't even come down to clean up the "Shooting area" We did get one guy that came up to shoot stay and help, but 15 others just drove away. Pardon My lack of enthusiasm, But, I'll just stick to cleaning up the areas that I use. :roll:
If You can garentee 20 others to show up, I might consider it, if not, let the 4 wheeler's think what they want. They're going to anyway. it's mainly stupid college kids that trash it anyways. :evil:
newracer
12-18-2006, 11:49
I totally understand and agree with your feelings towards it. They have posted that they are going to concentrate on the shooting area but we will see what happens. Hell they can't even get people to clean up the areas they use and stay on the designated trail. I still have not been there but the pictures I have seen are horrible (of the trail destruction). That area is going to be closed soon to 4x4 (not sure about shooting) due to massive destruction.
I just wanted to post it in case anybody was interested.
USMC88-93
12-18-2006, 15:54
It needs it I would have to agree most that use Left Hand are irresponsible. look at this crap. (took picture this weekend)
Oh and do not tell me my Jeep looks like crap I dont want people shooting at it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/lefthand.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/DSCN0812.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/DSCN0811.jpg
pickenup
12-18-2006, 17:22
Never been there, but those pictures tell a story.
Not a good story either.
That's clean compared to when Brandon and I went up there. [abused]
Still sad though. [diss]
Newracer, I can take heart that the Ranger that I talked too, was More impressed with our efforts than He was with the 4 wheelies. And there was only three of us. :mrgreen:
[shock2]
Nice job making all of us look like irresponsible hillbillies. Clean up your frickin range before "the man" does and tells you that you can't shoot there any more. By the looks of things, it won't be long...
Dose the park ranger have a dump site we can take all the crap? The sofa's would be a truck load right there. Probably another 10 loads at least after that. I've never been there but, If you can get others to commit give me a map and I'll bring my truck. :evil:
Atrain,
Google "Urban Front Country Initiative" (with the quotes)
it's already in the works.
ok guys I am a newbie here but understand I have been wheeling as long as I have been shooting(20+years). I think that the more hands the better. Makes the job a whole lot easier plus you get to meet new people that may have similar interests Jeeping and shooting for me are like peanut butter and jelly but like any hobby there are idiots that make us all look bad ironically wheelers have the exact same consequence as shooters do for the damage these idiots do, another place where you can't shoot or wheel. maybe its time to at least help each other out and maybe become aligned to fight the government in closing more areas where both hobby's can be enjoyed, strength in numbers you know? 4 Wheelers have become very good at dealing with the feds on land issues and come to think of it I can't think of any other hobby the feds consider to be on the wrong side that has had more success then the off road crowd in fighting uncle sam, the greenies or who ever.
if it's the brats at CU, just load up a semi full of that shit and dump in on the field at Folsom.
I've been there once.
A long story short, i will not go back, even to clean up. I value my life too much.
Marlin,
There were a few more than two of us there. I was there, but not in your area.
What "we" think of when cleaning up the "shooting area" is where you were (i.e. the small canyon a 1/4 mile up from the trailhead the 4x4s use). When "they" think of the shooting area, they are thinking of the area where you can either turn and go up the hill or the very base of carnage canyon.
They don't give a damn about anything except keeping carnage canyon open so they can tear the living crap out of a few miles worth or stream bed. They then want to blame people shooting on their misdeeds.
Really, I won't go out of my way to help them one bit anymore. If you read what is generally posted on CO4x4, they want shooting banned becasue that area should be for the exclusive (mis)use of wheelers.
Basically, most of them despise people shooting. They want scape goats.
The real problem is the college kids in that area.
I won't go the lefthand because it is so damn un-safe.
-Dana
ok guys I am a newbie here but understand I have been wheeling as long as I have been shooting(20+years). I think that the more hands the better. Makes the job a whole lot easier plus you get to meet new people that may have similar interests Jeeping and shooting for me are like peanut butter and jelly but like any hobby there are idiots that make us all look bad ironically wheelers have the exact same consequence as shooters do for the damage these idiots do, another place where you can't shoot or wheel. maybe its time to at least help each other out and maybe become aligned to fight the government in closing more areas where both hobby's can be enjoyed, strength in numbers you know? 4 Wheelers have become very good at dealing with the feds on land issues and come to think of it I can't think of any other hobby the feds consider to be on the wrong side that has had more success then the off road crowd in fighting uncle sam, the greenies or who ever.
Lipp..
When I was up there cleaning up, no-one knew I was a "shooter". All I heard was nasty comments about shooters and how no shooters came out to help out. Really makes me wanna go out an do it again.
One look at Carnage and then you tell me how the area is being used responsibly.
I am not an environmentalist (very far from it). However, I think wheelers are one of the biggest problems that shooters face. At least we have the NRA with lots of money to help us out (sometimes).
Here is just one (of very many) examples of how the 4x4 community wants to share lans use..
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=9908&highlight=shooter
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=32622&highlight=shooter
In the thread, immediately above, look at what one of the Moderators (Camp) says.
Its obvious that its a we-them.
-Dana
Dana, I think your right we vs. them! I retract my offer; those guys can go to HELL! After reading some of the threads posted on the 4wheelers forum it’s obvious most of them think their $h!t don’t stink. Well let me tell ya it dose. I’ve been jeeping around in Colorado for 34 years and know for a fact that 4wheeling is a dirty business and it causes much more damage on the environment than shooting ever will. Just look at the size of the shooting area. Tiny compared to the miles of off road trails. I’ve seen mufflers, busted tail light lens, broken glass, batteries, and all sorts of parts laying all over the mountains. Most of it’s still there and has been for years. Look at all the gas, oil, grease; anti-freeze and all engine fluid dripping and spilling out of those rigs. Every time I went 4wheeling I checked the fluids and almost every time I got home something had leaked out. It’s was low because the trail was hard on the vehicle pitching back and forth or the rocks got me or the seals just gave out. It was always something. If something bad happened on the mountain you were lucky to get down in one piece and no one stuck around to clean up. I’m not the only one this has happened to I’m sure it has gotten the best of us one time or another. $h!t happens! I’ve seen some guys with big bad rigs tearing up stuff on and off the trail that pissed me off. Also I’ve seen some guys shooting guns leaving behind the junk they shot up. I doubt if these guys were affiliated with any club. I believe most of the 4wheelers and Shooters that belong to a club are ethical and try to obey their rules of conduct. I’m not saying we’re all saints, but we have a lot of eyes watching us.
The fact is a lot of people contribute to the mess left at shooting areas; like partiers, irresponsible youth, idiot adults, shooters and wheelers. But they still point the finger at the shooters. Why? Can’t they see that the only ones that would care enough to go to their clean up parties: are other clubs like ours that organize similar clean ups for the same cause. You can’t build an army by insulting your allies. Until they figure that out they'll have to go it alone. :evil:
Thats Right, Sorry about forgetting about You Dana. :mrgreen:
how does that saying go?
nuke boulder from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.....
you know if I heard somone talking about me thtat way i would be hacked to guys so I don't blame you for not wanting to be any part of the wheelers clean up
What I have said on CO4x4 I will say again.
The environazis are getting EXCATLY what they want. They don't want the shooters out of the NF. They don't want the wheelers out of the NF. They don't want motorcyclists out. They don't want equestrians out.
THEY WANT EVERYONE OUT who doesn't have a kayak, subaru, and a mountain bike. Ooops, almost forgot the Tevas...
But look at what is happening. Get the wheelers to blame the shooters. Get the shooters to blame the motorcyclists. Let them all blame each other and pick them off one by one.
Here is the real problem. The NF is property that we all own. None of us have an exclusive lease to do on it as we want while not being bothered by someone else.
I like to go camping. When I go, I generally get rid of a few rounds. Does it make noise in the NF? Sure. But, again, no-one has exlcuisve use so they can live with the noise I make. Does that motorcycle driving by my campsite make noise in the middle of the night? Sure it does. But guess, what I have to learn to live with it.
What many people are missing is common courtesy to one another. I limit my shooting to daylight hours. I try and do it well after people are done sleeping in. Yes, I can fire within 100 yards of a campsite, but is that courteous? No. If there are people around, I try and go somewhere where my disturbance is kept to a minimum.
Normally, only if people are a$$hats to me, will I not try and be accomidating. I still have a first-come-first-served attitude though. I have been asked when camping (getting up there on a thursday night to get a good spot) if I would mind moving my camp because someone else who came up Saturday morning wanted to be close to the trailhead. Yes, I mind.
But really, working together against the environazis and common courtesy go along way. If everyone want the Forest Service to solve the problems, they will. They will take access away from everyone.
-Dana
oddthomas
12-21-2006, 21:09
I have never been to the 4x4 canyon to shoot, I always go to the one 1/4 mile up the road (make sure you go at 6am).
WildHare
12-26-2006, 20:07
Wallery and Dana
I think you guys are missing the point for the lefthand cleanup. The 4x4 community usually organizes 2 cleanups a year for this particular area. The area is very easy for the general public to see the trash that is left by unethical and irresponsible shooters. Those couches, tv's and refriderators are not brought up there by 4 wheelers to drive over. Irresponsible shooters bring them up, shoot the crap out of them and then leave them. Then other shooters shoot them and so on. I have 4 wheeled the lefthand/carnage canyon quite a bit in the last two years and there is in no way shape or form the same type or amount of trash left anywhere else but this area between the two trail heads. The picture that USMC88-93 posted in page 1 of this thread shows nothing of what it looks like prior to the summer clean ups. Shell casings are ankle deep thru out. As for the 4x4 trails and trash, I always bring a trash bag with me and I pick up anything and everything that I see on the trail (except the shooting area) and hardly ever fill the bag half way. I have picked up tie rods, u-joints, tail lights, cans, bottles etc. My club lives by the pack it in, pack it out rule and we do our share in keeping trails clean. If you guys don't shoot in this area, then by all means don't help clean it up. But do not compare the 4x4 community that uses this trail to the a$$hats that shoot everything up and leave it behind for others to clean up.
I know your asking why I don't pick up at the shooting area at the same time and its because the trash is over whelming and I do not have enough room to fill my jeep with trash everytime I am up there. I will save it for the organized big cleanups. BTW, the forest service is in cooperation with these cleanups and helps in providing roll off trash containers for the clubs to fill up. This particular quick clean that this thread started from is not one of the regular organized cleanups mostly because it is winter and everything is either covered by snow or frozen to/in the ground.
Sincerely
DW Thompson
as with ANYTHING done outdoors, the organized (4x4, CO-AR15.com guys..etc.) are NOT the problem.
There are people that partake in said events (4x4, shooting and the like, heck even outdoorsie types too) are the irresponsible idiots that are making the friggin mess.
We don't need to be caught up in the 'this group vs that group' crap that this is becoming.
just as it's not the firearms fault, it's not the <insert offroad vehicle here> fault either.
it's the friggin moron's. <period>
stop saying it's the firearms and offroad types, we don't know who it is. IF we did know who the frick it was, I'd sure as hell have them out there in shackles cleaning that crap up (after we beat the crap out of 'em) [pirate]
Dear Mr Thompson, I’m sorry about the misunderstanding of my comments about this clean up thread. I was merely stating the obvious profiling going on here. You did it again when you said … the trash that is left by unethical and irresponsible [poke](shooters). Is it possible that someone other than a [poke](shooter) dumped off some of the furnisher? And how do you know they weren’t in a 4x4? I wouldn't assume anything without proof. Maybe you should say (We think the trash was brought to the shooting area by irresponsible people) I can see your view if the crap is already there everybody will probably shoot it [postal]. That doesn’t make it right! Same goes for the wheelers if you see a tire track on the side of a mountain everyone want to climb it. We all try to justify in our minds what makes it ok to do these despicable things. That’s besides to point; I’ve never been to left-hand Canyon. Correct me if I’m wrong; isn’t this a common spot for the local college kids to party? Hmmm? Now you got me assuming things! lol! Oh well enough said, I hope you have a good turn out at the next clean-up. Happy New Year! http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Tedwantsthemdead/wallaryAR15Avatar.gif
You guys Know You just wasted bandwidth, Mr. Thompson won't be back, He already has made up His mind that since We are gun owners, We are automaticly guilty of leaveing every bit of trash that is up there.
I would issue this Invitation for Mr.Thompson If Your still out there, Why don't You come to one of our shoots, Maybe We can prove to You that We aren't the scum sucking slobs That You want to believe that We are.
Do not let the actions of a few, determine Your opinion of all.
WildHare
12-27-2006, 11:00
Marlin, my point again is a few irresponsible parties are making it bad for all of us. It would be one thing if someone dropped off a piece of furniture and left it there. OK< then there is 1 bad, then since it is sitting there someone shoots at it and makes a bigger mess. A chair for instance left there would be 1 piece of trash. Once an AR-15 hits it and all the stuffing comes out then we have 100's of pieces of trash and you have what is pictured. It seems that the responsible people that frequent the area are the ones that clean up the mess. Not a problem. The only way to keep the areas open for all of us is to be present in numbers, express our opinions and assist the FS when we can to help our cause.
I appologize for generalizing the shooting community as I know it is only a few irresponsible people that are creating this mess, just as I know you know that there are a few bad apples in the 4x4 community as well that make things look bad for everyone. The people that belong to clubs are the ones that get put to the fire because we are the ones that are most visible. Thats why we need to be visible doing the right thing as well regardless as to whom is at fault in the first place.
Thank You,
Dean
Growing up in that area, me and my brother rode our motorcycles around there in the early and mid 80's. It was not a very well known spot and it sickens me to see what it has become today. I can't even recognize the spot where these pictures were taken. I have never shot there and haven't visited the area in over 18 years but I am willing to volunteer a day to clean that ^&%$ up. Especially if dumpsters are provided. Too bad it seems it will only be temporary though due to the apparent popularity of the place by a bunch of irresponsible punks that have no ethics. Their mommas have failed them miserably. A few careless shooters, AND offroaders, AND illegal dumpers have the rest of us pointing fingers at each other. Lets quit the pissing match and get this done! :evil:
Wallery and Dana
I think you guys are missing the point for the lefthand cleanup. The 4x4 community usually organizes 2 cleanups a year for this particular area. The area is very easy for the general public to see the trash that is left by unethical and irresponsible shooters.
Not really. The general public does not visit left hand/carnage canyon. Really, its people who wheel, shoot, and party. I haven't seem hardly anyone there not doing one of those three activities.
Those couches, tv's and refriderators are not brought up there by 4 wheelers to drive over. Irresponsible shooters bring them up, shoot the crap out of them and then leave them.
I would bet, as others have said, that the crap is brought up there in 4x4s or pickups. The short access road to where you are talking about is not very passable by a Honda Civic.
Then other shooters shoot them and so on. I have 4 wheeled the lefthand/carnage canyon quite a bit in the last two years and there is in no way shape or form the same type or amount of trash left anywhere else but this area between the two trail heads.
Been the "5-points" area there?
But do not compare the 4x4 community that uses this trail to the a$$hats that shoot everything up and leave it behind for others to clean up.
So you want to convince us that we take things wrong when you come here calling shooters "a$$hats"?
Did you even read my posts? As I said, I actually went to the clean-up. I DONT shoot at left hand. Its unsafe. I also have a range membership soo I don't have to. When I was at the clean-up, cleaning up after "a$$hats", I had to listen to wheelers make tons of degrogatory remarks from wheelers about shooters.
It is not my generalization that has me soured. It is first hand treatment. You also seem to think that I am anti-wheeling. Not at all. Lets put it this way, I installed (yes, by myself) an ARB in my Wrangler. That isn't anti-wheeling. I could also tell you of people I know who are very serious about wheeling. I have been in Carnage with them. I have been in Carnage.
But, let me make something else clear, if I have to pick between wheeling and shooting, I will pick shooting any day. Do I like vehicles? Yep, I sure do. Look no further than my garage.
Where I believe the problem in LH comes from with the shooting and trash, is the same people who put couches on their porches on the hill. I believe that most of the shooting and wheeling problems in that area are caused by college students from Boulder. I mean, come on, do you really think that people bring stuff up in the middle of the day in front of everyone or do you think it happens at night? How much drinking do you think goes on with all this activity.
Be realistic. If you really want to put an end to the problems at Carnage, you need to stop the abuse by the college students.
-Dana
Yep calling Me an A$$Hat does not really endear Me to Your cause. Dana is right, look to the college for Who is really doing it.
As long as I/WE work at keeping "our" north and south spots clean, It really does not matter to Me if they do close LH to Both the wheeler's and shooter's. I know that the little scumbag college students won't want to haul they're crap that far. At least I hope.
though if we keep "their" areas open they eon't haven incentive to come to ours.
I'm curious about how acessable the area would be on the 31st though
One thing to keep in mind, as I have said before, is that the environazis don't want shooters or wheelers out. They want everyone out.
If you really look at it, both shooters and wheeler (along with ATVs and motorcycles) are the "bad" guys of the use of the National Forest. Basically, the tree huggers want to be able to kayak, hike, mountain bike (of coarse Mt Bikes don't cause extreme trail damage) and have exlcusive use of the NF for their, and only thier, activities.
Keep in mind most of the these people have no respect for private property and other things. Basically, the environazis (tree huggers) think that the entire area, regardless of who owns it, it theirs for their exlcusive use.
If they can turn the wheelers and shooters against one another, then they will win.
Now, as far as Left Hand. Lets look at the real problem. It is very close to Boulder and is over-used. There are bicycles in the canyon that refuse to ride single file. They don't like the wheelers driving in the canyon. They don't like the noise from shooting or the wheelers. The wheelers don't like the noise from the shooting. The people shooting are stupid (even at the far area) because some fire up the hill. There is a trail at the top. The wheelers are stupid because they are driving along a trail that they know sometimes shot in the general direction.
The real problem is that this area is too close to Boulder and is over-used for every activity (wheeling, biking, wheeling, shooting, camping, partying). I mean, come on wheelers, be honest. Any given weekend day on Carnage it looks like a traffic jam. Look at the crowds that gather at that big rock to watch most vehicles go around and a few over it. To solve the real problem with the area (over-use) use has to be restricted and the restrictions enforced.
Sorry to say this, but really in this area, they should make the rock park that is wanted and charge for it. I have no issues with charging for use. Separate the users. Get rid of the camping and partying. Simply get rid of the over use and most problems will go away.
Why? Well, come on wheelers, how much Federal Excise Tax do you pay that is used to help fund the National Forest on 4x4s???? Zero!!! How much is paid on a rifles, pistols, fishing rods, ammunintion? Well, it varies, but about 10%. We pay our taxes to use this area, why shouldn't you pay to use it?
-Dana
pickenup
12-28-2006, 17:15
I have to wonder if this is going to happen at all.
No it won't happen.
After I wouldn't back down to them on their board (after someone performed cutting, editing and pasting of posts from this thread), they deleted the thread. They don't like hearing anyone not calling wheelers gods.
-Dana
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