Lightened trigger- legal issues

[kidicarus13]

I always hear people talking about a lightened trigger on a firearm used in a shooting being an easy target for a prosecutor in court. If you intentionally and justifiably shot the "bad guy" why would matter if the trigger was a 2lb polished trigger or a 12lb factory trigger?

[Wulf202]

the prosecutors job is to try every way they can to demonize you. They'll portray you as choosing evil people killing hollow points that are banned by the Geneva convention and a hare trigger.

[Sharpienads]

You mean "assault trigger"? Having an "assault trigger" means you're a vigilante looking to spill blood. You probably think you need a "high-capacity clip" to go with that "assault trigger", huh? What color is it painted? "Evil black"?

But seriously, I wouldn't think it would matter. Except to make you look like a bad guy maybe.

[Bailey Guns]

the prosecutors job is to try every way they can to demonize you. They'll portray you as choosing evil people killing hollow points that are banned by the Geneva convention and a hare trigger.

Wait... Rabbits have triggers? I didn't even know they had guns.

[Coffee]

[Bailey Guns]

Probably more of a potential issue in civil court. The other side WILL try to make you out to be a bad guy for modifying your gun.

We teach people to only have qualified gunsmiths (preferably at the factory) do action work on their carry guns. Not illegal or anything...just a good way to avoid potential issues.

[BPTactical]

As far as I know there is no legal precident for a trigger pull weight. On a carry sidearm you want a trigger that is going to require a dedicated and deliberate effort to discharge. The last thing you want in a critical situation is a ND.
I personally will not go less than 4-5 lbs for a carry piece.

[birddog]

I don't think there is any law against it, just ammo for a prosecutor to make you look like you wanted to kill someone. Its just another thing people worry about that makes them look "more deadly" like reloaded ammo in a carry gun. Im sure if you never said anything they would never know.

[sniper7]

if it wasn't for that hair trigger the guy you shot might have had a chance because you could have thought about shooting him a little bit longer and changed your mind.

[thebolt]

They will present the information and use it, and any other modification, if the information is advantagous to their position in the case.

[Singlestack]

Ayoob talks about this subject quite a bit. On a carry gun, his recommendations are to avoid lightening trigger pull less than the minimum factory specs for that handgun, according to the manufacturer. As others have said, the purpose is to avoid dirtbag prosecutors etc painting a picture of the defendent as the actual bad guy.

Singlestack

[SouthPaw]

I have heard stuff similar with people loading their own self defense loads.

[Irving]

As far as I know there is no legal precident for a trigger pull weight. On a carry sidearm you want a trigger that is going to require a dedicated and deliberate effort to discharge. The last thing you want in a critical situation is a ND.
I personally will not go less than 4-5 lbs for a carry piece.

Would you install an Apex kit on a carry M&P?

[birddog]

I have heard stuff similar with people loading their own self defense loads.

Yea, I mentioned this above. I think the big thing is that it is something that could potentially be used against you. If you don't modify your gun and use factory ammo its just one less variable in the equation. Less for them to try and make you look like a bad guy.

[BPTactical]

I have heard stuff similar with people loading their own self defense loads.

Yup, asking for trouble in spades. I was advised to hang on to the packaging from the rounds you keep in your carry weapon as well. That way if you get drug into court you have evidence that you used "Personal Defense" ammunition.
I read some stuff a while back that an individual who was involved in a legal SD shoot was raked over the coals by the prosecution for having "Punisher" grips on the weapon used.
They tried to claim that he "had a propensity for violence" because of the skull and whatever slogan was on the grips.

[Zundfolge]

Ayoob talks about this subject quite a bit. On a carry gun, his recommendations are to avoid lightening trigger pull less than the minimum factory specs for that handgun, according to the manufacturer. As others have said, the purpose is to avoid dirtbag prosecutors etc painting a picture of the defendent as the actual bad guy.


Ayoob talks about this a lot but does it really happen? Or is it just FUD?

[J]

Ayoob talks about this a lot but does it really happen? Or is it just FUD?

Not sure if it actually happens or not, but with the way some trials have gone it is foreseeable IMHO. Ayoob argues that a light trigger pull may allow the argument that you accidentally shot the guy, the trigger was so light and you were nervous and accidentally touched the trigger, and bang! before really wanting to use it. And there are no justifiable accidents, only justifiable homicide, which requires a deliberate intent to shoot the bad guy.

His main argument against using hand loads, AFAIK isn't from precedent, but from an evidence stand point. Burn marks, powder residue, etc are often used to establish distance and prove your side of the story. This is not admissible if you used hand loads. Even if you keep meticulous records, the line from Ayoob goes something like "Objection. Your honor, the defendant literally manufactured the evidence... Sustained"

[kidicarus13]

Not sure Ayoob argues that a light trigger pull may allow the argument that you accidentally shot the guy, the trigger was so light and you were nervous and accidentally touched the trigger, and bang! before really wanting to use it.

Speculation. I chose to shoot and pulled the trigger.

[SouthPaw]

I read some stuff a while back that an individual who was involved in a legal SD shoot was raked over the coals by the prosecution for having "Punisher" grips on the weapon used.
They tried to claim that he "had a propensity for violence" because of the skull and whatever slogan was on the grips.

I remember reading something along those same lines. Never heard of holding onto the box from the ammo in my EDC but not a bad idea.

[Irving]

Didn't Albert Fish get raked over the coals just for using a 10mm?

[cofi]

Didn't Albert Fish get raked over the coals just for using a 10mm?

Yes but that whole case was fucked up

[BPTactical]

Back to the "lightened trigger"- I think one is better off on a carry piece of cleaning up and smoothing what is already there than lightening. Quite often you get similar(crisper, more predictable) results while still maintain a dedicated pull.

[Great-Kazoo]

Anything an attorney can dig up to use against you, to make you The Survivor of a violent crime a gun lunatic they will. Why go there when basic, professional smithing can give you the same results.

[MarkCO]

I've been waiting for 20 plus years to see a case citation, civil or criminal, where ammo or a lightened trigger had any impact on a verdict. At this point in time, it has not happened. Not saying it can't, but it is really nothing more than a preponderance of caution. A lawyer could even take the saving of the factory box as premediation of a defense...or paranoia. I have personally spoken with Ayoob on the subject and he has admitted that his statements on the subject are essentially ultra conservative. I work in the legal system every day, and one should be careful not to label all lawyers with the same tag because there are good ones and bad ones, just like any other profession.

[Pancho Villa]

Thanks, MarkCo. Beat me to it. I have not been waiting as long as you have, but I have been skeptical here.

Guys, bottom line, if a prosecutor wants to make your life hell - including, if he keeps getting hung juries, just retrying you until you're bankrupt, have ulcers from all the trials and out on the street - he's going to. Worry about preserving your life, loved ones, dignity and property first, and just hope the local guy doesn't have a grudge against people who do that.

[Clint45]

The probability that the prosecutor will even be aware of the trigger pull seems fairly slim . . . unless he is dry-firing the evidence.

[buckshotbarlow]

Yea, I mentioned this above. I think the big thing is that it is something that could potentially be used against you. If you don't modify your gun and use factory ammo its just one less variable in the equation. Less for them to try and make you look like a bad guy.

Carry the same factory ammo as the officers in your county/city. Then when they say you had intent to kill, you answer the prosecutor that the police officer has the same intent since your following their lead...

[cwripinz]

Wait... Rabbits have triggers? I didn't even know they had guns.

[Coffee]

http://i.imgur.com/sqTWj.jpg (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110212020010/looneytunes/images/8/89/Hare_Brush.png)

[MarkCO]

The probability that the prosecutor will even be aware of the trigger pull seems fairly slim . . . unless he is dry-firing the evidence.

In some cases, the firearms are inspected at a joint inspection, sometimes by CBI. I have worked both sides of the aisle, and even a few where CBI made some mistakes. The inspections vary greatly. I have done several with LE repesentatives and manufacturer representatives. The prosecutors know more than you think.

[MarkCO]

Carry the same factory ammo as the officers in your county/city. Then when they say you had intent to kill, you answer the prosecutor that the police officer has the same intent since your following their lead...

Terrible advice! Even a half wit prosecutor will turn this on you and play it up to the jury.

[sniper7]

easy to fight. so long as only 1 round is discharged from the weapon for each trigger pull (unless you have a FA with tax stamp or other legal means to own one), then no law prohibits a very light trigger.

[ChadAmberg]

Always remember, you may have 2 court cases, first criminal where you fight the DA and they can get you on what's written in the law as illegal. Next, there's the potential of a civil lawsuit, where there's a different set of rules.