Army bans Pmags

[Scanker19]

The army has banned the use of polymer magazines, and others not authorized by them. I'll post the article in a bit, I'm on my phone and can only get the mobile site.

[DD977GM2]

WTF?????

Tag for article

[jplove71]

Found the article on Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/05/25/in-reversal-army-bans-high-performance-rifle-mags.html?ESRC=eb.nl)


The Army has ordered that soldiers may use only government-issued magazines with their M4 carbines, a move that effectively bans one of the most dependable and widely used commercial-made magazines on today’s battlefield.

The past decade of war has spawned a wave of innovation in the commercial soldier weapons and equipment market. As a result, trigger-pullers in the Army, Marines and various service special operations communities now go to war armed with commercially designed kit that’s been tested under the most extreme combat conditions.

Near the top of such advancements is the PMAG polymer M4 magazine, introduced by Magpul Industries Corp. in 2007. Its rugged design has made it as one of the top performers in the small-arms accessory arena, according to combat veterans who credit the PMAG with drastically improving the reliability of the M4.

Despite the success of the PMAG, Army officials from the TACOM Life Cycle Management Command issued a “safety of use message” in April that placed it, and all other polymer magazines, on an unauthorized list.
The message did not single out PMAGs, but instead authorizes only the use of Army-issued aluminum magazines. The message offers little explanation for the new policy except to state that “Units are only authorized to use the Army-authorized magazines listed in the technical manuals.” Nor does it say what Army units should now do with the millions of dollars’ worth of PMAGs they’ve purchased over the years.

Magpul officials have been reluctant to comment on the issue. Robert Vidrine, vice president of marketing and sales, said the company found out about TACOM’s message only after it was released to the field.
The decision has left combat troops puzzled, since the PMAG has an Army-approved national stock number, which allows units to order them through the Army supply system.

“This just follows a long line of the Army, and military in general, not listening to the troops about equipment and weaponry,” said one Army infantryman serving in Southwest Afghanistan, who asked not to be identified.

“The PMAG is a great product … lightweight and durable. I have seen numerous special ops teams from all services pass through here, and they all use PMAGs. Also, a large amount of Marine infantry here use PMAGS, including their Force Recon elements.”

TACOM officials said the message was issued because of “numerous reports that Army units are using unauthorized magazines,” TACOM spokesman Eric Emerton said in a written response to questions from Military.com. Emerton added that only “authorized NSNs have ever been included in the technical manuals. Just because an item has an NSN, does not mean the Army is an authorized user.”

This seems to be a complete policy reversal, since PMAGs are standard issue with the Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment and they have been routinely issued to infantry units before war-zone deployments.

Soldiers from B Troop, 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, had been issued PMAGs before deploying to Afghanistan in 2009. On Oct. 3 of that year, they fought off a bold enemy attack on Combat Outpost Keating that lasted for more than six hours and left eight Americans dead. Some soldiers fired up to 40 PMAGs from their M4s without a single stoppage.

Militay.com asked TACOM officials if the Army had discovered any problems with PMAGs that would warrant the ban on their use. TACOM officials would not answer the question and instead passed it off to Program Executive Office Soldier on Thursday evening before the four-day Memorial Day weekend.

TACOM’s message authorizes soldiers to use the Army’s improved magazine, which PEO Soldier developed after the M4 finished last against three other carbines in a 2007 reliability test. The “dust test” revealed that 27 percent of the M4’s stoppages were magazine related.

The improved magazine uses a redesigned “follower,” the part that sits on the magazine’s internal spring and feeds the rounds into the M4’s upper receiver. The new tan-colored follower features an extended rear leg and modified bullet protrusion for improved round stacking and orientation. The self-leveling/anti-tilt follower reduces the risk of magazine-related stoppages by more than 50 percent compared to the older magazine variants, PEO Soldier officials maintain. Soldiers are also authorized to use Army magazines with the older, green follower until they are all replaced, the message states.

Military.com asked the Army if the improved magazine can outperform the PMAG, but a response wasn’t received by press time.

The same infantryman serving in Southwest Afghanistan had this to say about the new and improved magazine:
“Like any magazine, they work great when they are brand new and haven’t been drug through the dirt and mud. I haven’t noticed much of a difference between these tan followers and the older green ones. After some time training up for the 'Stan, the same issues started to occur: double feeds, rounds not feeding correctly so on and so on. While it seems to occur about half as often, it’s still not a great solution.

“The magazines still get bent at the opening and are still prone to getting crushed in the middle. I haven’t seen any issues like this with the PMAG due to the polymer casing. I have seen an empty PMAG get run over by a MaxPro [vehicle] and operated flawlessly later that week when we tested it at the range. Last time I saw this happen to a standard issue magazine, it was scrap metal after that.”

[02ducky]

That's crap, bet the HLS group gets to carry them. What happens if one of our brave soldiers decides to carry them?

[Great-Kazoo]

WHY? Because the .gov contract companies are probably kicking back some moola and or other favors to higher ups. They want to make sure their action isn't over run by some upstarts.

2) No one ever listens to the guys in the trenches..

3) Bad for magpul good for the civvie market.

[cstone]

This is one of those issues that really make the company NCOs, company commanders earn their pay.

My gut feeling is that the notice from TACOM will be roundly ignored by units deployed in combat zones.

I suspect that if someone pushes hard enough, a letter, email, and telephone campaign by concerned citizens to members of Congress will make this issue go the way of the Up-Armoring of vehicles in the middle portion of the Iraq War. When Mom, Dad, and wives call, Congress will usually listen.

Hopefully TACOM will not push the issue.

[Hoser]

Regular P-Mags dont work with the HK-416. Thats whats driving this.

[Skully]

Regular P-Mags dont work with the HK-416. Thats whats driving this.

figures..............



Faulkers!.................. just let the guys that are getting shot at choose what they want to use and trust frigging goberment bureaucracy ...............bull shite.

[airborneranger]

Wow. We bought 20K worth of them for our deployment in 09.

[Sharpienads]

I have a feeling this won't last.

Good thing I'm not in the Army :)

[Scanker19]

Regular P-Mags dont work with the HK-416. Thats whats driving this.

I'd imagine units that have 416 have enough funding to do a local purchase of some emags to their hearts desire.

[sabot_round]

Can anyone say DRMO sale?? I'm in!!

[Scanker19]

The Army could F*ck up a wet dream. I doubt many soldiers will listen to this unless the command enforces it.

[airborneranger]

The Army could F*ck up a wet dream. I doubt many soldiers will listen to this unless the command enforces it.

If they did ban them then no one will be using them. When the Army did this with the beta mags, they were all collected and crushed.

[Scanker19]

If they did ban them then no one will be using them. When the Army did this with the beta mags, they were all collected and crushed.

This is just one more reason why I'm thank the stars everyday I'm not in that cluster organization.

I'm writing some elected officials.

[Rucker61]

This is one of those issues that really make the company NCOs, company commanders earn their pay.

My gut feeling is that the notice from TACOM will be roundly ignored by units deployed in combat zones.


Hear, hear. Good combat leaders will always do what right and best, not what some REMF bureaucrat decides. Odds are those guys will never get into a combat zone to see anyway.

[airborneranger]

This is just one more reason why I'm thank the stars everyday I'm not in that cluster organization.

I'm writing some elected officials.

I didn't read the article to see why they are banned. Were they malfunctioning or is it a $$$ issue??

[Sharpienads]

This is just one more reason why I'm thank the stars everyday I'm not in that cluster organization.

I'm writing some elected officials.

My buddy and I used to joke that if you could only use one word to describe the US Army, what would it be?

We decided "chaos" was the best.

[Scanker19]

I didn't read the article to see why they are banned. Were they malfunctioning or is it a $$$ issue??

The dart landed on ban.

I thought you'd find the first part of this quote from the article interesting. It's a ban on all magazines not authorized by the TM, not specifically Pmags. However I doubt many units were rushing out to buy Thermolds.


Soldiers from B Troop, 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, had been issued PMAGs before deploying to Afghanistan in 2009. On Oct. 3 of that year, they fought off a bold enemy attack on Combat Outpost Keating that lasted for more than six hours and left eight Americans dead. Some soldiers fired up to 40 PMAGs from their M4s without a single stoppage.

Militay.com asked TACOM officials if the Army had discovered any problems with PMAGs that would warrant the ban on their use. TACOM officials would not answer the question and instead passed it off to Program Executive Office Soldier on Thursday evening before the four-day Memorial Day weekend.

[airborneranger]

The dart landed on ban.

I thought you'd find the first part of this quote from the article interesting. It's a ban on all magazines not authorized by the TM, not specifically Pmags. However I doubt many units were rushing out to buy Thermolds.

That unit is my old BDE - 4BCT. I was in the Stan with them in 09-10. LOL

[tmjohnson]

My youngest son deployed to Afghanistan last september, in October he called and asked for Pmags. I sent him 13. When he deployed he had 35 or 40 army issue mags, he said they were so wore out, all they did was jam. He was sure happy to see those Pmags. Hopefully they won't ban to soon, he is scheduled to come home in July.

[asmo]

Somewhere I have picture of 9 pallets of PMAGs loaded into the back of a C130 headed east. I will see if I can find it.

[cstone]

Somewhere I have picture of 9 pallets of PMAGs loaded into the back of a C130 headed east. I will see if I can find it.

How many pmags are on a pallet? I just like the idea of that many magazines, especially if they are loaded. Please share that picture. I need a new wallpaper for the laptop.

[BPTactical]

I didn't read the article to see why they are banned. Were they malfunctioning or is it a $$$ issue??

Somebodies buddy doesn't get a kick back from Magpul

[Rucker61]

The dart landed on ban.

I thought you'd find the first part of this quote from the article interesting. It's a ban on all magazines not authorized by the TM, not specifically Pmags. However I doubt many units were rushing out to buy Thermolds.

[Story about PMAGS functioning great in a firefight]

Tp quote the late great Amy Winehouse, "What kind of fuckery is this?" Troops first, you fucksticks.

[brokenscout]

Thermolds work fine,ask the Canadian Military:) Don't ask Don't tell should apply to PMags also:)

[cstone]

Don't ask Don't tell should apply to PMags also:)

I didn't know pmags had sex. Thanks for telling me. I'm going to start breeding mine. It's got to be cheaper to breed them than buy them : )

[brokenscout]

I didn't know pmags had sex. Thanks for telling me. I'm going to start breeding mine. It's got to be cheaper to breed them than buy them : )
Just saying Pmags are GAY:)

[Sharpienads]

Just saying Pmags are GAY:)

My PMAGs are pretty happy when the get used, too.

[BPTactical]

Somebody just had to play the ghey card didn't they..........

[Scanker19]

BrokenScout is just mad because a Pmag Broke his heart one time. Hence BROKENScout.

[Sharpienads]

BrokenScout is just mad because a Pmag Broke his heart one time. Hence BROKENScout.

Lol, BrokeScout Mountain.

[brokenscout]

Lol, BrokeScout Mountain.
HA HA HA. I'll show you deliverance Southern Colorado style.:) lol
PS.I will invite Gunner so you will get Gunneria:)

[brokenscout]

My PMAGs are pretty happy when the get used, too.
Don't know where your keeping them:)(keester stash)

[Eggysrun]

The fact they don't offer an explanation to the decision, not even some stupid BS shows the old boys lobbyist groups that didn't jump on the polymer market are flexing their muscle.

[Gunner]

HA HA HA. I'll show you deliverance Southern Colorado style.:) lol
PS.I will invite Gunner so you will get Gunneria:)

Oh you mother fawker. I almost skipped this thread.

[DD977GM2]

If they did ban them then no one will be using them. When the Army did this with the beta mags, they were all collected and crushed.


:(

[TheBelly]

The PMAG NSN (1005-01-576-5164) costs $16.28 each and has a non-deteriorating shelf life. The USGI Mag NSNs (1005-01-561-7200) and (1005-00-921-5004) costs $9.13 each and has a non-deteriorating shelf life. At a cost difference of $7.15 each, you can outfit a 'normal' company element (~100 Soldeirs) for $11,396 (PMAG) vs. $6,391 (USGI).

Here's the 'So What:' You can buy all new PMAGs (expensive magazines) for the deployed strength of my entire BRIGADE for less than the cost of ONE Soldier's SGLI.

That's without getting into the nerdy parts of the US Army supply system, and trust me folks... I can nerd out about the Army's supply system.

[BPTactical]

BrokeScout Mountain.

Where is the "Laughing my ass off hysterically" smiley?

[pepito]

Somebody just had to play the ghey card didn't they..........

+1

[DD977GM2]

Thermolds work fine,ask the Canadian Military:) Don't ask Don't tell should apply to PMags also:)
You just want DADT reinstated for your personal gain :D

[DD977GM2]

HA HA HA. I'll show you deliverance Southern Colorado style.:) lol
PS.I will invite Gunner so you will get Gunneria:)

I wish teh laughing emoticons worked LOLOLOLOL

[rondog]

What a load of shit! If P-Mags work well for our guys, they should be allowed to use them no questions asked. Give 'em the best equipment we can, especially if the items are already in gov't inventory! I compare my P-Mags to my surplus GI mags, and there's no comparison. No doubt in my mind which one I'd rather use.

But, if they DO ban them, I wonder if they'll hit the surplus markets?

[spyder]

Regular P-Mags dont work with the HK-416. Thats whats driving this.
Swap out the regulars with the new ones. They work great!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7227/7269062974_4e2fa83659_b.jpg

[rondog]

Swap out the regulars with the new ones. They work great!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7227/7269062974_4e2fa83659_b.jpg

Damn nice boomstick ya have there!

[Byte Stryke]

The PMAG NSN (1005-01-576-5164) costs $16.28 each and has a non-deteriorating shelf life. The USGI Mag NSNs (1005-01-561-7200) and (1005-00-921-5004) costs $9.13 each and has a non-deteriorating shelf life. At a cost difference of $7.15 each, you can outfit a 'normal' company element (~100 Soldeirs) for $11,396 (PMAG) vs. $6,391 (USGI).

Here's the 'So What:' You can buy all new PMAGs (expensive magazines) for the deployed strength of my entire BRIGADE for less than the cost of ONE Soldier's SGLI.

That's without getting into the nerdy parts of the US Army supply system, and trust me folks... I can nerd out about the Army's supply system.

and what about the cost of a malfunction caused by an aluminum mag failure?

[lifeon2]

I'm pretty sure somebody got paid for this but I'm also pretty sure that the pmag which didnt even exist until 2007 or there abouts isnt the only dependable magazine on the market. Yes they work and yes they work well but its not like the pmag was the only way to keep the rifle running.

[BPTactical]

and what about the cost of a malfunction caused by an aluminum mag failure?

Already been factored in.
Acceptable loss in the beancounters eyes. Expendable asset.

[Byte Stryke]

Already been factored in.
Acceptable loss in the beancounters eyes. Expendable asset.


Great.. lets give the Beancounters M-4 with those craptastic USGIs and send them to ass-krackistan.

[Ronin13]

and what about the cost of a malfunction caused by an aluminum mag failure?

Bert won't give the number so I will... 1x Soldier KIA:
$412,000 paid to family via SGLI includes burial cost... I'd like to factor in the rest, like how much it costs to fly the body home, transport to soldier's HOR, train up, equip and ship out a replacement soldier, and that's only if one is killed due to POS Mag failure.

I'm one of those guys who upon hitting the ground in the 'Stan threw almost everything into my toughbox- M86 CCO? Gone. R-Tard RVG (the ones with the pop out bipod)? Gone. Aluminum magazines? Gone. Standard issue buttstock? Gone. Replaced with EOTech 556, Magpul RVG, 7 PMAGs, and the MOE Buttstock... sorry, I'm a Magpul fanboy and I never once had any issue with anything they shipped me (at a massive discount no less) during long hours of training and operating in Afghanistan. Note: Never did I fire a single round in combat, but I was on a PSD team, Base Ops team, and BDOC team and got dirty, plus we built and operated a firing range- I probably used and abused my mags more than a port-o-john at Sturgis.

[josh7328]

Me with my PMag in afghanistan, today. Haven't heard of any bans yet. http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z444/josh7328/120601-132656.jpg

[spyder]

^ Someone should send they man a decent stock...[Tooth]

[josh7328]

^ Someone should send they man a decent stock...[Tooth]
Thanks, but I wouldn't waste your time. I think somebody said things like that can't be sent through the mail. I don't know if it's true or not, but I wouldn't waste the money. Plus, when wearing our garbage body armor, getting an adequate cheek weld and getting the stock to sit snugly in the shoulder pocket is nearly impossible no matter which stock is used.

[Ronin13]

Thanks, but I wouldn't waste your time. I think somebody said things like that can't be sent through the mail. I don't know if it's true or not, but I wouldn't waste the money. Plus, when wearing our garbage body armor, getting an adequate cheek weld and getting the stock to sit snugly in the shoulder pocket is nearly impossible no matter which stock is used.

Still using those IOTVs eh? I hated that, we'd have so many issues when we switched from the old Interceptor to those... Remember, all your equipment is made by the lowest bidder.[Bang]

[josh7328]

Still using those IOTVs eh? I hated that, we'd have so many issues when we switched from the old Interceptor to those... Remember, all your equipment is made by the lowest bidder.[Bang]
yeah we do. IOTV's and equally crap-tastic plate carriers. My IOTV ripped within the first month in country... and it had only been on one convoy when it ripped. garbage.

[Scanker19]

You have to pimp the IOTV out. I have a few techniques that one could use to make it really comfortable.

[RCCrawler]

And now they are unbanned.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/06/07/army-now-says-no-ban-on-rifle-magazines.html?comp=1198882887570&rank=1

[TEAMRICO]

You have to pimp the IOTV out. I have a few techniques that one could use to make it really comfortable.

Like removing the plates and stuffing with MRE box cardboard?
Or you could stuff them with the PolyPro's they made you pack on the packing list......that you never used!!!!!

[cstone]

Now this is an administrative pee pee whacking. Someone is going to remedial writing for bureaucrats training:

Army officials acknowledged June 6 that TACOM’s message was poorly written and not intended as a directive on the use of PMAGs. Matthew Bourke, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon responding to questions from Mililtary.com, said the message should have included guidance that the final decision rests with commanders in the field.

“At best, the message is incomplete; at worst the message allows soldiers to jump to the wrong conclusions,” Bourke said. “Maintenance Information Messages [from TACOM] are permissive. They are not an order. They are not a directive. All content and direction in those messages are optional for the recipient.”

[Chad4000]

Me with my PMag in afghanistan, today. Haven't heard of any bans yet. http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z444/josh7328/120601-132656.jpg


stay safe out there man!!!

[james_bond_007]

In Reversal, Army Bans High-Performance Rifle Mags

May 25, 2012
by Matthew Cox
SOURCE: http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/05/25/in-reversal-army-bans-high-performance-rifle-mags.html?ESRC=dod.nl


The Army has ordered that soldiers may use only government-issued magazines with their M4 carbines, a move that effectively bans one of the most dependable and widely used commercial-made magazines on today’s battlefield.

The past decade of war has spawned a wave of innovation in the commercial soldier weapons and equipment market. As a result, trigger-pullers in the Army, Marines and various service special operations communities now go to war armed with commercially designed kit that’s been tested under the most extreme combat conditions.

Near the top of such advancements is the PMAG polymer M4 magazine, introduced by Magpul Industries Corp. in 2007. Its rugged design has made it as one of the top performers in the small-arms accessory arena, according to combat veterans who credit the PMAG with drastically improving the reliability of the M4.

Despite the success of the PMAG, Army officials from the TACOM Life Cycle Management Command issued a “safety of use message” in April that placed it, and all other polymer magazines, on an unauthorized list.

The message did not single out PMAGs, but instead authorizes only the use of Army-issued aluminum magazines. The message offers little explanation for the new policy except to state that “Units are only authorized to use the Army-authorized magazines listed in the technical manuals.” Nor does it say what Army units should now do with the millions of dollars’ worth of PMAGs they’ve purchased over the years.

[james_bond_007]

What's the chance they will end up at the CMP ?

[JM Ver. 2.0]

You still suck at searching....... Did you notice your article is dated May 25th, 2012?

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Also.... This very article spawned a multi page thread.

[Guylee]

I was about to shit my pants and then I saw that article is from May and I have never been told not to use my pmags.

[james_bond_007]

You still suck at searching....... Did you notice your article is dated May 25th, 2012?

Yes I did.

If you want this post deleted, ask the mods.

...I found the info interesting.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

I was about to shit my pants and then I saw that article is from May and I have never been told not to use my pmags.

This was debated way back in May. There are several more articles out there that pretty much have the army saying, "oops. We fucked up."


Fucking hell. A search or even a look at the article date would have prevented this.....


Now I bet there's a bunch of people freaking out over something stupid.

[StagLefty]

"Groundhog Day"

[spleify]

JM, you need to calm down. You could politely have told him that this was a repost. There is no need to post profanity, if you dont want to help someone on the forum then move on.

R|Between this thread and the RMGO email thread, thats two strikes.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[brokenscout]

So you guys had 200 of them:)[Coffee]
Wow. We bought 20K worth of them for our deployment in 09.

[airborneranger]

So you guys had 200 of them:)[Coffee]

LOL - yup :)

[NightCat]

I was issued 15 of these before deploying with 3 Bat.....

[The Rat]

I'm on Camp Leatherneck right now, and I see plenty of soldiers and Marines with Pmags. Probably 1/3 of them at least. It warms the cockles of my heart.

[TheBelly]

Funny thing about pmags is that they didn't deactivate the NSN when they were 'banned'. Every Soldier in my Company had AT LEAST 10 of them.

[theGinsue]

Threads merged

[Brass]

HBARleatherneck's link has this interesting quote:

"$10.7 million contract TACOM Rock Island awarded to Brownells Inc. in 2009 to produce 1.4 million Army improved magazines."

What makes Brownell's magazines improved? I see that mine have a different follower unlike my other aluminum mags, but is there anything else that's been improved?

[TheBelly]

They have the improved follower. It's brown.

[nynco]

I think I have one of those. I have not used it yet though. The question is where can I buy more?

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[TheBelly]

Yeah, they're tan/brown. They do alright. I think I have approx 10-15 of them.