Is paramilitary training illegal?

[quondom fremd]

I know this story is about white supremacists, and is also from CNN, and occurred in Florida, but it got me asking is paramilitary training illegal,

if it is, couldn't magpul and other groups be considered paramilitary training groups, or does it have something to do with the intent?

link to article:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/justice/florida-supremacists-charges/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

[275RLTW]

I know there is a mention of paramilitary training being illegal in CRS. As far as teaching "military training.." I don't know if it is listed in CFR. That is a VERY grey area that is controlled by DDTC and ITAR issues (if working with foreigners), none of which give slaps on the wrist. Most instructors will NOT teach "military technology" ie room entry, team tactics, breaching to civilians for this reason. If you do see someone teaching this stuff, they usually don't know what they are doing, hence the great amount youtube videos of idiots doing this stuff and almost killing themselves....if only darwin would step in at those moments.

[spqrzilla]

"Military training" is not illegal in and of itself in Colorado. Note the parts that I've bolded in this quotation from CRS 18-9-120:


18-9-120. Terrorist training activities - penalties - exemptions



(1) As used in this section, unless the context otherwise requires:

(a) "Civil disorder" means any planned public disturbance involving acts of violence by an assemblage of two or more persons that causes an immediate danger of, or results in, damage or injury to property or to another person.

(b) "Explosive or incendiary device" means:

(I) Dynamite and all other forms of high explosives;

(II) Any explosive bomb, grenade, missile, or similar device;

(III) Any incendiary bomb or grenade, fire bomb, or similar device, including any device which:

(A) Consists of or includes a breakable receptacle containing a flammable liquid or compound and a wick composed of any material which, when ignited, is capable of igniting such flammable liquid or compound; and

(B) Can be carried or thrown by one person acting alone.

(c) "Firearm" means any weapon which is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

(d) "Law enforcement officer" means any peace officer of this state, as described in section 16-2.5-101 (http://web.lexisnexis.com/research/buttonTFLink?_m=8673754c30f8a571790a88dd01ad1dcb&_xfercite=%3ccite%20cc%3d%22USA%22%3e%3c%21%5bCDAT A%5bC.R.S.%2018-9-120%5d%5d%3e%3c%2fcite%3e&_butType=4&_butStat=0&_butNum=2&_butInline=1&_butinfo=COCODE%2016-2.5-101&_fmtstr=FULL&docnum=1&_startdoc=1&wchp=dGLbVzk-zSkAl&_md5=1514a83126190b5d4a6e7ac2da09abea), C.R.S., including a member of the Colorado National Guard or any peace officer of the United States, any state, any political subdivision of a state, or the District of Columbia. "Law enforcement officer" includes, but is not limited to, any member of the National Guard, as defined in 10 U.S.C. sec. 101 (9), any member of the organized militia of any state or territory of the United States, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or the District of Columbia who is not included within the definition of National Guard, and any member of the armed forces of the United States.

(2) Any person who teaches or demonstrates to any person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to any person and who knows that the same will be unlawfully used in furtherance of a civil disorder and any person who assembles with one or more other persons for the purpose of training or practicing with, or being instructed in the use of, any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to any person with the intent to unlawfully use the same in furtherance of a civil disorder commits a class 5 felony.

(3) (a) Nothing in this section shall make unlawful any activity pursuant to section 13 of article II of the state constitution (http://web.lexisnexis.com/research/buttonTFLink?_m=8673754c30f8a571790a88dd01ad1dcb&_xfercite=%3ccite%20cc%3d%22USA%22%3e%3c%21%5bCDAT A%5bC.R.S.%2018-9-120%5d%5d%3e%3c%2fcite%3e&_butType=4&_butStat=0&_butNum=4&_butInline=1&_butinfo=CO%20CONST%20II%2013&_fmtstr=FULL&docnum=1&_startdoc=1&wchp=dGLbVzk-zSkAl&_md5=ecefb360a690130df8cf827db449169b) or activity of the wildlife commission, any law enforcement agency, any hunting club, or any rifle club, any activity engaged in on a rifle range, pistol range, or shooting range, or any activity undertaken pursuant to any shooting school or other program or instruction, any of which activities is intended to teach the safe handling or use of firearms, archery equipment, or other weapons or techniques and is employed in connection with lawful sports or teach the use of arms for the defense of home, person, or property, or the lawful use of force as defined in part 7 of article 1 of this title, or other lawful activities.

(b) Nothing in this section shall make unlawful any act of a law enforcement officer which is performed as a part of his official duties.

HISTORY: Source:. L. 84: Entire section added, p. 555, § 1, effective July 1.L. 95: (1)(a) amended, p. 1255, § 19, effective July 1.L. 2003: (1)(d) amended, p. 1615, § 13, effective August 6.
http://web.lexisnexis.com/ri/s.gif

[whiskeyjack]

Its perfectly legal. At this moment.

[275RLTW]

The difference is in sub part 3 of that section. While training for DEFENSE of person/property is justifed, going into a building shooting is not in your defense. Entry tactics are OFFENSIVE in nature and are not justified. Any law student could easily argue that you had other options available to you and show you as the agressor. Even within your own home, it is not advised to leave the room you are in unless to secure the safety of other persons in the home. Room entry is not needed for home defense. Consensus is: if you want to learn military tactics...just sign on the dotted line and raise your right hand.

Addition: you need some government sponsored authority to attend this training ie...you have to have a need for it. Everyday CCW'er doesn't need to know door breaching techniques, cops = yes. There is a reason I have to have to be vetted to attend the training I do. No grandmas with a snub nose .38 there and also no haji's wanting to use that knowledge against us.

[Byte Stryke]

so you could legally be trained to clear a room/breach a closed doorway in your house if you were awakened by Burglars...

[Bailey Guns]

I know there is a mention of paramilitary training being illegal in CRS.

Yeah? Where?


As far as teaching "military training.." I don't know if it is listed in CFR. That is a VERY grey area that is controlled by DDTC and ITAR issues (if working with foreigners), none of which give slaps on the wrist. Most instructors will NOT teach "military technology" ie room entry, team tactics, breaching to civilians for this reason. If you do see someone teaching this stuff, they usually don't know what they are doing, hence the great amount youtube videos of idiots doing this stuff and almost killing themselves....if only darwin would step in at those moments.

I got news for ya. The .mil doesn't have the market cornered on "room entry, team tactics, breaching". That's standard SWAT or even active shooter stuff that most street officers learn and can be found being taught at many civilian shooting schools in the country. Ever go to Thunder Ranch?

There are lots of LE or former LE guys teaching this that would disagree with your assertion that "they usually don't know what they're doing".

We've been down this road before.

[275RLTW]

Yeah? Where?



I got news for ya. The .mil doesn't have the market cornered on "room entry, team tactics, breaching". That's standard SWAT or even active shooter stuff that most street officers learn and can be found being taught at many civilian shooting schools in the country. Ever go to Thunder Ranch?

There are lots of LE or former LE guys teaching this that would disagree with your assertion that "they usually don't know what they're doing".

We've been down this road before.


Clint Smith's views on teaching civilians more than necessary is well known. If you forgot...he doesn't. Please let me know what schools are teaching "active shooter" to non sworn officers? I've never seen one that was worth a damn. I've seen what alot of the agencies are teaching and some are up on their tactics, others still think a circle in the middle of the room is a viable techique. Finally, since you haven't been in LE for a while, nor were you in the military (AF doesn't count for a viable source for tactics), let me clue you in. Directorate of Defense of Trade Controls. Look them up, call them, learn something. Why do you think everyone is requiring background checks for training courses nowadays? Why do you think some courses are not available for civilians? Why don't we see civilian shoothouses popping up like gun ranges do? Just because you WERE a cop doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. If teaching room clearing to every civilian was OK, then why doesn't your beloved NRA has a course out for it yet?

[275RLTW]

so you could legally be trained to clear a room/breach a closed doorway in your house if you were awakened by Burglars...

Here's your training...

1) clear a room= look EVERYWHERE
2) if necessary to breach door: twist the door handle/knob, push or pull to open

There you go! Common sense kinda taught that one; nothing military about that. Now you and 3-4 other people going in with intent to cause harm to someone when you have other options, like calling the cops...different story.

[Sharpienads]

AF doesn't count for a viable source for tactics

Really?

Pure ignorance.

[Skully]

I originally read this post but other than the news article about a extreme racist group taking their ability to voice their opinions to the next level and harming/attempting to harm others. I had nothing really to ad until now. There seems to be a huge debate going over what a person can be taught.

I have a very simple statement to this whole thing.

The most powerful weapon you have at your disposal is your mind.

Therefore "Knowledge = power"

We already allow those in power try and tell how to live, if we allow them to tell us what we can learn we need to fight harder.

I am sorry, but there is no CRIME in learning and increasing your knowledge, what you choose to do with it can be. There should be no segregation of knowledge/education between government and the general population.

I will learn everything I can.......................even if it is paramilitary training. :)


Remember a very wise statement: "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

[whiskeyjack]

I originally read this post but other than the news article about a extreme racist group taking their ability to voice their opinions to the next level and harming/attempting to harm others. I had nothing really to ad until now. There seems to be a huge debate going over what a person can be taught.

I have a very simple statement to this whole thing.

The most powerful weapon you have at your disposal is your mind.

Therefore "Knowledge = power"

We already allow those in power try and tells how to live, if we allow them to tell us what we can learn we need to fight harder.

I am sorry, but there is no CRIME in learning and increasing your knowledge, what you choose to do with it can be. There should be no segregation of knowledge between government and the general population.

I will learn everything I can.......................even if it is paramilitary training. :)


Remember a very wise statement: "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
so true sir fully agreed.

[275RLTW]

Really?

Pure ignorance.

Nope. Even you Tac-P's don't run drills. Your weapon is your radio, not your trigger finger.

[Sharpienads]

Nope. Even you Tac-P's don't run drills. Your weapon is your radio, not your trigger finger.

Ok, you obviously know more about what the career field does than I do, so I won't argue with you.

[275RLTW]

I am sorry, but there is no CRIME in learning and increasing your knowledge, what you choose to do with it can be. There should be no segregation of knowledge/education between government and the general population.





No, some things you don't need to know.

I presume that you would be OK with every US born, Al Quaeda member learning EOD techniques to use for better IEDs, or knowing our entry tactics to set up better ambushes in houses for our guys overseas? There has to be a line drawn somewhere, and without a better vetting process, the current line is based upon having the authority and need to know the information. Even Colo. Const. Art. II, Section 13 states
"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question;..."

Again, if you don't NEED to know and don't have authority to use it, don't worry about it.

[Sharpienads]

Anybody who wants to read up on basic room clearing and other various urban operations can read FM 3-06.11 or SH 21-76. Or use Google and find a reputable source.

[Skully]

No, some things you don't need to know.

I presume that you would be OK with every US born, Al Quaeda member learning EOD techniques to use for better IEDs, or knowing our entry tactics to set up better ambushes in houses for our guys overseas? There has to be a line drawn somewhere, and without a better vetting process, the current line is based upon having the authority and need to know the information. Even Colo. Const. Art. II, Section 13 states
"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question;..."

Again, if you don't NEED to know and don't have authority to use it, don't worry about it.

Fear is the mind killer, the what if's will always be there but if i want to learn something and you tell me i dont need to know i will figure it out anyway. WHO should determine what is knowledge what is group information and what is restricted. There is the crux..........

[275RLTW]

Anybody who wants to read up on basic room clearing and other various urban operations can read FM 3-06.11 or SH 21-76. Or use Google and find a reputable source.

Nothing stopping anyone from doing that...kind of like learning how to f*ck by watching porn though...

[275RLTW]

Again WHO should determine what is knowledge what is group information and what is restricted. There is the crux..........

We elected th people who came up with it, and continue to uphold it. If we didn't think they knew what they were doing then we should have checked the other box on election day (America collectively).

[pickenup]

Keep it civil guys.

[Skully]

We elected the people who came up with it, and continue to uphold it. If we didn't think they knew what they were doing then we should have checked the other box on election day (America collectively).

yup............unfortunately the damage to this once great Republic has already happened and it would take a massive change in thinking and action on a majority of the populace. There is way to many sheep that will follow what ever is popular on TV and believe everything they are told.

One of the steps in the book "Dictatorship for Dummies" ...............control "knowledge."

History does and will repeat itself...............

[Irving]

Keep it civil guys.

Does that mean no teaming up and no forced entry?

[Bailey Guns]

OK...I concede. coloccw is the end all to firearm tactics. I should've known not to argue with the ultimate "operator".

But I see he never provided a source to his assertion that teaching paramilitary training is illegal per Colorado statutes. But he "knows" it's there. That's good enough for me.

[Tristan]

Does that mean no teaming up and no forced entry?

lol,You're sick.......

[alxone]

Here's your training...

1) clear a room= look EVERYWHERE except the closet (cause thats where monsters are
2) if necessary to breach door: twist the door handle/knob, push or pull to open , unless your a real bad ass then you will kick the crap out of every door in your house

fixed it [ROFL1]

[SuperiorDG]

Back on topic. As far as training goes it seems they where watching videos. From the article is seems they didn't even take a training class.

"According to police, Faella's group watched videos training them in fighting and the use of AK-47s and other weapons at the compound, which the affidavit said is ringed with barbed wire and protected by pit bulls and firing positions facing the driveway."

After reading this article there seems to be a fine line here. Intent I would choose as a key word. A lot of what there were doing are things I would bet a lot of us do.

"The group was making body armor and sniper suits and stocking up on supplies in preparation"

How many here have a watched Magpul videos, own a gillie suit, body armor and have supplies ready for the end of days? Hell I bet any one of us could be twisted by the media and police to appear just a crazy as these nut jobs.

About being taught "tactics" every class I've taken it has been mentioned that it was a weapons manipulation class and not a tactics class. So much so that I have wondered why they go out of their way to say it.

[hollohas]

Please let me know what schools are teaching "active shooter" to non sworn officers? I've never seen one that was worth a damn.

Gunsite has many civilian classes teaching team tactics as well as multiple classes that spend time in the shoot house and force-on-force tactical training for pistol, carbine, rifle and shotgun.

[275RLTW]

Gunsite has many civilian classes teaching team tactics as well as multiple classes that spend time in the shoot house and force-on-force tactical training for pistol, carbine, rifle and shotgun.

Nothing wrong with force on force. In fact, I highly recommend it for everyone who carries. THe tactics they are teaching are again, defensive in nature. How to respond to an attack whe you have no other option. They are not offering a "shoothouse" course or similar to civilians.

There is nothing wrong with knowing or wanting to learn this stuff; just man up and enlist. You don't get to learn neurosurgery without going to med school... Too many people whine on the internet about not getting to learn the cool stuff when they can't get off the couch and put the time in like everyone else had to. I suppose their free training vouchers should come in the mail with thier food stamps too. Just because you consume oxygen doesn't mean you're entitled to have everything GIVEN to you. Some things you have to earn.

[SuperiorDG]

There is nothing wrong with knowing or wanting to learn this stuff; just man up and enlist.

I'm too old.[Rant2]

[hollohas]

They are not offering a "shoothouse" course or similar to civilians.

I think you better look again. Many of their civilian courses include time in their Fun House including 250 pistol, 350 pistol, Team tactics 4 Two, 260 shotgun, carbine classes and others..

[275RLTW]

I think you better look again. Many of their civilian courses include time in their Fun House including 250 pistol, 350 pistol, Team tactics 4 Two, 260 shotgun, carbine classes and others..


Been there, know some of the instructors, and know the POI. Again, they are teaching defensive tactics, not team entries and such.

[kidicarus13]

Just because you consume oxygen doesn't mean you're entitled to have everything GIVEN to you. Some things you have to earn.

Sounds to me like you're just mad you had to take the long, hard road to get this type if training. This is America 2012 where $ talks, you can find LE/mil assault training if you are willing to pay- sorry.

[hollohas]

Been there, know some of the instructors, and know the POI. Again, they are teaching defensive tactics, not team entries and such.

You specifically said they do not offer shoot house classes to civilians. What do you call a two man team clearing a building room by room which contains "good guy" and " bad guy" targets? That is a shoot house.

Here's a bit of the description from the Team Tactic 4Two course which is just one of many courses that have shoot house training.


Do you and your loved one care to COMBINE your existing skills, and expand them into a team format?  “Then, Team Tactics 4 Two” is the class for you. 

Two Person Tactics takes shooting, moving and COMMUNICATING to a new level.  Our students learn safe gun-handling in confined spaces, assessing and reacting to multiple threats, covering fire, continuity of fire, cooperative movement, and ambush techniques.  Extensive “square range” work will be done in live fire drills on paper and steel targets to build your team’s skills.  These skills will then be applied in home invasion scenarios and car-jacking scenarios.  This course includes Force-on-Force exercises with Simunitions, and live fire in our Simulators.


Regarding it only being defensive...Ambush techniques? Sounds offensive to me...

Hell, even their "self defense" rifle courses teach techniques out to several hundred yards which is FAR outside any true self defense distance.

Your opinion may be that civilians don't need offensive training, which I won't argue with since opinions are like assholes (everyone's got one and they all stink"), but the FACT is civilians can get a bit of offensive training.

[Bailey Guns]

Oh, boy. I can't wait to see the response.

[275RLTW]

Sounds to me like you're just mad you had to take the long, hard road to get this type if training. This is America 2012 where $ talks, you can find LE/mil assault training if you are willing to pay- sorry.

Quite the opposite. I'm glad I have the balls to get off my ass and do things right, as is everyone else that puts on a mil or LE uniform. If I were a lazy POS who thinks the world is owed to them...I'd have to shoot myself! I would like to see you pitch that "money talks" BS to Kyle Lamb, Paul Howe, or Larry Vickers. There is this little things called integrity that money cannot buy.


You specifically said they do not offer shoot house classes to civilians. What do you call a two man team clearing a building room by room which contains "good guy" and " bad guy" targets? That is a shoot house.

Here's a bit of the description from the Team Tactic 4Two course which is just one of many courses that have shoot house training.



Regarding it only being defensive...Ambush techniques? Sounds offensive to me...

Hell, even their "self defense" rifle courses teach techniques out to several hundred yards which is FAR outside any true self defense distance.

Your opinion may be that civilians don't need offensive training, which I won't argue with since opinions are like assholes (everyone's got them and they all stink"), but the FACT is civilians can get a bit of offensive training.

You seem to have not read that entire quote:


These skills will then be applied in home invasion scenarios and car-jacking scenarios.

And shooting out to several hundred yards is called marksmanship and application of fundamentals. If you shot as much as you typed, you might understand that.

[asmo]

I believe this thread has gone full retard.

[hollohas]

You seem to have not read that entire quote:

And shooting out to several hundred yards is called marksmanship and application of fundamentals.

Yeah, I get that. I also get that ambush techniques aren't needed to defend against a car jacking. Many "self defense" courses included offensive techniques and training, plain and simple.


If you shot as much as you typed, you might understand that.

Funny, considering you have typed more posts in this thread than I have...

[Danimal]

Wasn't there just a case a little while back where a guy heard a mans voice coming form his 12 year old daughters room, and when he went to open the door it was locked? Turns out there was an armed serial rapist in the room with his daughter. I can see justification for some of the techniques in question.

[ben4372]

Nothing stopping anyone from doing that...kind of like learning how to f*ck by watching porn though...

I saved 50 bucks by watching the video. The tactical class was full. Only two complaints so far, and no one died.

[Sharpienads]

I think this is probably why they were arrested"


According to police, Faella was planning to stage provocative disruptions at the Orlando City Hall and at a Melbourne, Florida, anarchist gathering that included members of anti-racist skinhead groups.

I don't know what the FL law says, but I doubt just teaching "paramilitary tactics" is illegal by itself. I think the fact that they were actively training for a specific event was what got them in trouble.

Applied to CRS:


(2) Any person who teaches or demonstrates to any person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to any person and who knows that the same will be unlawfully used in furtherance of a civil disorder and any person who assembles with one or more other persons for the purpose of training or practicing with, or being instructed in the use of, any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to any person with the intent to unlawfully use the same in furtherance of a civil disorder commits a class 5 felony.

So basic training isn't illegal, but say specifically training to go shoot up the courthouse would be. Or in the FL case, they were "planning to stage provocative disruptions at the Orlando City Hall and at a Melbourne, Florida, anarchist gathering."

FL law may or may not be similar, I don't know.

[hollohas]

Wasn't there just a case a little while back where a guy heard a mans voice coming form his 12 year old daughters room, and when he went to open the door it was locked? Turns out there was an armed serial rapist in the room with his daughter. I can see justification for some of the techniques in question.

According to coloccw only LEO or .mil need to breech doors, so if that happens just wait until he gets there to do it for you.

[Sharpienads]

According to coloccw only LEO or .mil need to breech doors, so if that happens just wait until he gets there to do it for you.

Correct. You're also allowed by CO law to use force up to and including deadly force in defense of a third person, but only if there aren't any walls, fences, doors, etc. in between you and that third person. Because then you would practicing self offense, not self defense, and that, as we all now know, is illegal.

[spqrzilla]

The difference is in sub part 3 of that section. While training for DEFENSE of person/property is justifed, going into a building shooting is not in your defense. Entry tactics are OFFENSIVE in nature and are not justified. Any law student could easily argue that you had other options available to you and show you as the agressor.


Subpart 3 is not a restriction on what kind of training you can have. Its an explicit carve out from the acts forbidden in (1) and (2).


Addition: you need some government sponsored authority to attend this training ie...you have to have a need for it. Everyday CCW'er doesn't need to know door breaching techniques, cops = yes. There is a reason I have to have to be vetted to attend the training I do. No grandmas with a snub nose .38 there and also no haji's wanting to use that knowledge against us.Those requirements do not appear in CRS.

I've illustrated what Colorado statutes say. One could go to the other state laws that cover this subject. You are going to find that most of them will include the intent to commit a crime element because First Amendment protections of speech will protect anyone who wishes to "teach" tactics of any kind.

That the reputable shooting schools do not teach SWAT or counter-terror dynamic entry and other such tactics to civilians is of course their choice, their ethics, and obviously a poor business practice, and I'm not commenting upon that. The assertion that it would be, without qualification, illegal for them to do so is one that I'd say is untrue.

Now obviously, if one found a school that purported to teach such to civilians ... well, I'm pretty sure that in no time at all, you would be straddling a speed bag and beating it to death with a loaded gun, craning your neck in some weird 270 degree scanning motion and other silly things....

[275RLTW]

According to coloccw only LEO or .mil need to breech doors, so if that happens just wait until he gets there to do it for you.

Ballistic breaching is not an option in that case and would be considered negligence. If it's your house...go get the damn key.

[pickenup]

I believe this thread has gone full retard.

I agree.