How would you react?

[ChadAmberg]

Found this over at Tam's blog (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2012/06/and-what-kind-of-lesson-is-that.html). Original story here (http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/215785-what_would_you_do_if_someone_degunned_you.html).

Now that the links are outta the way, here's the jist of what happened:

Allegedly, the way it went down is like this: Some young guy is standing there in his local gun shop, minding his own business, with his hands full of prospective purchases and a pistol openly carried on his hip. The store was apparently moderately crowded with patrons, one of them being an older guy who apparently felt it was his duty to teach this young guy a lesson in the perils of open carry or situational awareness or something.

Anyhow, supposedly the old guy yanks the kid's gun out of his holster, drops the mag, clears the piece, tucks it under his arm and thumbs the rounds out of the mag while delivering some rambling lecture to the stunned kid about "Suppose I wanted to kill you now? Huh? What then?" Then he sets the kid's piece on the counter and stomps out of the shop leaving everybody standing there slack-jawed.

So... what would your reaciton be?

[aahorn]

the old guy is probably lucky another patron or employee didnt shoot him

[Zundfolge]

Old guy is also lucky kid didn't pack a BUG or had any martial arts training and broke the old mans arm and face.

Most of the folk I know that open carry would probably have hurt the old man.

[spyder]

The moment someone touches my gun (I open carry), they get laid out, end of the interaction. My uncle knows this personally (thougth it would be funny to sneak up on me in Albertson's).

He was lucky the kid wasn't prepared. If that kid is going to carry, he needs to be prepared also, otherwise, what's the point of carrying?

[Chad4000]

Old guy is also lucky kid didn't pack a BUG or had any martial arts training and broke the old mans arm and face.

Most of the folk I know that open carry would probably have hurt the old man.


I would have beat the ever living shit out of the guy.... that would have been bad...

[Ridge]

That's what backup weapons are for, aren't they?

[blacklabel]

Bad on the kid for not retaining his weapon but he should have been in the process of making the old guy pay for it.

[buckeye4rnr]

I think as soon as I felt my gun being removed from my possession I would've responded with speed and violence of action to knock him right on his sit upon.

[BPTactical]

First off why did he allow someone to get close enough to gain control of said weapon?
Awareness of your surroundings is a good thing.
Secondly, if you make the decision to open carry you need to know you may face such a situation and prepare in advance for it.

What's the old saw? Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance or something like that.

[Ronin13]

I think as soon as I felt my gun being removed from my possession I would've responded with speed and violence of action to knock him right on his sit upon.

Same here! That old guy would have learned a very tough lesson that day...

[Tinelement]

First off why did he allow someone to get close enough to gain control of said weapon?
Awareness of your surroundings is a good thing.
Secondly, if you make the decision to open carry you need to know you may face such a situation and prepare in advance for it.

What's the old saw? Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance or something like that.

7 P's......Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance?

Anyway, I woulda turned around and stabbed the old fart in jugular with my carry knife.

But that's just the mood I'm in today!!

[TFOGGER]

Violent reaction, probably involving a broken knee and an elbow to the throat...

[Ronin13]

Violent reaction, probably involving a broken knee and an elbow to the throat...

Remind me to always ask you permission before handling your property... [Beer]

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

We've got some bad mother fvckers here on this web board. There's a lot of I woulda beat the shit out him remarks here. You have no idea the background of this guy, yet you assume you woulda van dammed his ass. There's 60-70 year old men and women that would choked you out before you even had an opportunity to blink. Ever hear of Helio Gracie? Moral of what I'm saying never under estimate who your looking at or dealing with. Whether they are 6'8" or 5'2". Moral of the story I believe is if you're going to open carry you damn well better be prepared to be targetted first, never be too comfortable with people you don't know, and always expect the unexpected. Also, don't think your firearm is going to be the only thing to save your life. Train with your firearms, but also train in hand to hand situations. One last thing - it doesn't matter how big and bad you think you are, trust me there's someone bigger and badder. Btw if this offends any of you and hurts your feelings, chances are you aren't beating anyone's ass. [ROFL1]

[Beer]

[SuperiorDG]

I wonder if he would do the same thing to a cop. Even if it was a joke he would end up dead or in jail.

[Ronin13]

We've got some bad mother fvckers here on this web board. There's a lot of I woulda beat the shit out him remarks here. You have no idea the background of this guy, yet you assume you woulda van dammed his ass. There's 60-70 year old men and women that would choked you out before you even had an opportunity to blink. Ever hear of Helio Gracie? Moral of what I'm saying never under estimate who your looking at or dealing with. Whether they are 6'8" or 5'2". Moral of the story I believe is if you're going to open carry you damn well better be prepared to be targetted first, never be too comfortable with people you don't know, and always expect the unexpected. Also, don't think your firearm is going to be the only thing to save your life. Train with your firearms, but also train in hand to hand situations. One last thing - it doesn't matter how big and bad you think you are, trust me there's someone bigger and badder. Btw if this offends any of you and hurts your feelings, chances are you aren't beating anyone's ass. [ROFL1]

[Beer]

You do make a valid point, but let's reverse it... that guy trying to grab a gun from someone's belt shouldn't underestimate either. I can't speak for anyone else's abilities on here, but I'm confident in my training, and plain and simple no matter if you're Bruce "I'm Hard" Lee or some grade school kid a strike to the throat will humble anyone. [Beer]

[lead_magnet]

I don't open carry unless I'm working but... all the "ifs" being as they are, this would have turned into a knife fight, but play that one all the way through, guy take control of your weapon you respond with violence (be it knife, fists, B.U.G. or whatever)....

if you win, he dies or is serousily injured
if he wins, he gets sent to prison for 2nd degree murder (assuming proper prosecution)

either way he gets his, so the proper response IMHO would be to respond with lethal force against this old man's apparent leathal attack against you.

VIOLA!

[spyder]

We've got some bad mother fvckers here on this web board. There's a lot of I woulda beat the shit out him remarks here. You have no idea the background of this guy, yet you assume you woulda van dammed his ass. There's 60-70 year old men and women that would choked you out before you even had an opportunity to blink. Ever hear of Helio Gracie? Moral of what I'm saying never under estimate who your looking at or dealing with. Whether they are 6'8" or 5'2". Moral of the story I believe is if you're going to open carry you damn well better be prepared to be targetted first, never be too comfortable with people you don't know, and always expect the unexpected. Also, don't think your firearm is going to be the only thing to save your life. Train with your firearms, but also train in hand to hand situations. One last thing - it doesn't matter how big and bad you think you are, trust me there's someone bigger and badder. Btw if this offends any of you and hurts your feelings, chances are you aren't beating anyone's ass. [ROFL1]

[Beer]
I think everyone that has chimed in agrees about being prepared. If you're prepared, well, lets go with this particular circumstance, rather the guy could kick his ass or not, you do what you gota do. If you get your ass kicked, the dumb ass who tried to pull your shit out would still get his ass thrown in jail anyway. [Beer]

[Zundfolge]

Thing is there's no winners in this story.

Kid OCing is not exhibiting the requisite amount of situational awareness nor reaction time to safely OC (note for the record that I DO NOT OC myself).

Old Man is an asshat who could just as easily got himself harmed or killed because of his arrogance.


Both are fools taking unnecessary risks with their lives.

[MED]

First, everybody involved is lucky that something didn't happen. What an idiotic thing to do...so many variables that could have ended bad for the kid, the old guy, the patrons, and/or the shop workers.

Second, I am not a fan of open carry in urban settings so I wouldn't be in this situation. The last thing I want is to be noticed, and open carry brings way too much attention. I am a firm believer in blending into the environment as much as possible.

[mcantar18c]

That's what backup weapons are for, aren't they?

No. That's what combatives are for. Hand to hand.
I mean, if you really want to test out the speed of your draw (on a BUG, no less) against the speed of the other guys trigger finger on an already drawn gun, go ahead, but I wouldn't reccomend it.
Being an "armed citizen" doesn't simply mean one who carries a firearm. It's someone who's armed with the ability, skill, and willingness to fight in defense of ___. The tool you use... be it a gun, a knife, a screwdriver, or your hands... makes no difference, and you need to be proficient in all of it.
It irritates the hell out of me when I see guys talking about how they always carry their badass .45 and nothing can stop them, yet wouldn't know what to do if their gun hand was busy holding off a knife or if you got close and started throwing elbows.

Sorry for the tangent/mini rant

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

^^^^. I agree 100%

[Ronin13]

^^^^. I agree 100%

As do I! [Beer]

[Chad4000]

We've got some bad mother fvckers here on this web board. There's a lot of I woulda beat the shit out him remarks here. You have no idea the background of this guy, yet you assume you woulda van dammed his ass. There's 60-70 year old men and women that would choked you out before you even had an opportunity to blink. Ever hear of Helio Gracie? Moral of what I'm saying never under estimate who your looking at or dealing with. Whether they are 6'8" or 5'2". Moral of the story I believe is if you're going to open carry you damn well better be prepared to be targetted first, never be too comfortable with people you don't know, and always expect the unexpected. Also, don't think your firearm is going to be the only thing to save your life. Train with your firearms, but also train in hand to hand situations. One last thing - it doesn't matter how big and bad you think you are, trust me there's someone bigger and badder. Btw if this offends any of you and hurts your feelings, chances are you aren't beating anyone's ass. [ROFL1]

[Beer]

while I understand what you are saying.. i agree with Ronin too. this guy was trying to prove a point. he shouldnt just assume that whoever he does this to is going to be cool with it.... chances are he wasnt a UFC fighter either. those guys dont pull other peoples weapons out of their holsters.

not to mention,,, i wouldnt just beat the buy for the sake of it. I would assume he had very bad intentions and not the fact that he was trying to prove a point. full on adrenaline etc.

somebody else said it, but the guy is lucky one of the shop guys didnt kill him....

[anomad]

I always think "gun grab" when I see poorly executed open carry. Its amazing how close some people will let you get up behind their holster. Most citizens I see don't use a retention holster.

What's the saying about being prepared to kill someone that isn't afraid to die? A person that seriously grabs your gun probably isn't afraid to die.

[Ronin13]

I always think "gun grab" when I see poorly executed open carry. Its amazing how close some people will let you get up behind their holster. Most citizens I see don't use a retention holster.

What's the saying about being prepared to kill someone that isn't afraid to die? A person that seriously grabs your gun probably isn't afraid to die.

Yes, stupidity usually comes without fear... [Coffee]

[ChadAmberg]

So, does it make a difference that they were in a gun store? I mean, you'd think that would be one of the safest places to be.

[WETWRKS]

So, does it make a difference that they were in a gun store? I mean, you'd think that would be one of the safest places to be.

There should have been at least 2guns pointed in his direction. The 2on duty employees. As the place was fairly full I would think a half dozen would be in order. My first thought in that citation would be mass shooting and stopping the bad guy.

[mcsurveyer1361]

I never really payed to much attention to the martial arts while in the Corps but that lesson i do recall very well other the bayonet and rifle stuff along with basics is dealing with someone who has a hand gun to you. I would think being in a gun store that ones gaurd would be relaxed but regaurdless if someone took my piece i would have punched him in the adams apple if i wasnt fast enough to get my gun back.

[Zundfolge]

There should have been at least 2guns pointed in his direction. The 2on duty employees. As the place was fairly full I would think a half dozen would be in order. My first thought in that citation would be mass shooting and stopping the bad guy.
My guess is that the old guy is a regular at the gun shop.

So the employees were probably not thinking "OMG There's about to be a mass shooting!" they were probably thinking "What the hell is Earl doin'?" Or even more likely "Oh brother, here goes Earl again."

[wctriumph]

My reaction would have been to see that guy coming and moved to a position that would not allow the guy to yank on my gun without resistance from me in some manner. Whether I am armed or not, I am very aware of everybody around me at all times and position myself so that no one can come upon me unawares.

As my father always said, "People are no damn good."

[WETWRKS]

My guess is that the old guy is a regular at the gun shop.

So the employees were probably not thinking "OMG There's about to be a mass shooting!" they were probably thinking "What the hell is Earl doin'?" Or even more likely "Oh brother, here goes Earl again."

If that is the case the next discussion should be around banning Earl from the store. Talk about a good chance of a nd or of someone getting killed in the attempt to reclaim their firearm.

[68Charger]

Both are fools taking unnecessary risks with their (and other peoples) lives.
fixed it for you

I'm looking at it from the old man's POV... not excusing what he did, but maybe he's seen this guy before, maybe he's tired of seeing him not pay enough attention to what's going on around him, etc... you'd think that to get him so pissed to do something that reckless, there would have to be more than just casually noticing a stranger wasn't paying attention.
I also get the impression that by the time the kid knew it was going on, the mag was already dropped.

But chances are we're not hearing the full story here. Don't get me wrong, he's a douche for doing it- and I wouldn't do it myself. But I'll learn from the kid's mistake that somebody may TRY it if you're not paying attention.

So if I was truly unaware, and it went down like described, I would have cursed myself for being so lackadaisical in my awareness- then taken it as a lesson.

I don't open carry in public generally, and my open carry holsters (I only have 2) are retention holsters. Only times I can remember OC'ing is when hiking, or working on my own private property. I'll echo the sentiments of others that I try to blend in rather than stand out.


ETA: When I think about it, I'm pretty sure this is why I don't like crowds, it gets tiring constantly watching for threats, when new ones are milling about constantly. Maybe I'd rather be jumped by a Grizzly in the woods, it's more.... familar :-)

[cstone]

So... what would your reaciton be?

I guess that would depend on whether I was the open carrying kid, the ballsy old man, or one of the slack-jawed bystanders.

I haven't open carried since I was in uniform. I don't touch other people's guns without permission (holstered gun is like genitalia - shouldn't be handled in public). I have been known to be slack-jawed on occasion. As a slack-jawed bystander, I would just stand there and stare, by definition.

Be safe.

[TFOGGER]

I guess that would depend on whether I was the open carrying kid, the ballsy old man, or one of the slack-jawed bystanders.

I haven't open carried since I was in uniform. I don't touch other people's guns without permission (holstered gun is like genitalia - shouldn't be handled in public). I have been known to be slack-jawed on occasion. As a slack-jawed bystander, I would just stand there and stare, by definition.

Be safe.

By far the most honest answer so far...[ROFL1]

[Pacman89]

Anyone who has served knows full well that anyone that goes for YOUR weapon, usually gets dealt with in a very violent way. As such the kid may have been inexperienced and therefore had no business open carrying in the first place. On the other hand the old guy could have handled the situation far better. Especially if he is an experienced gun owner/operator. Its about respect/ responsibilitythe old guy should have never put his hands on another persons firearm PERIOD! it would have to greater purpose to offer to 1 educate the lad or 2 offer ideas of where to get proper training if it was that big a deal. While maybe not his responsibilty to educate the young man it could have been dealt with in a better way.

[sniper7]

I probably would have stood there dumfounded at my own stupidity for letting someone get that close to me and get a hold of my weapon.

the funny and totally unrealistic side of me says I would follow him outside, shoot out his tires, put one in the engine block and ask him if he was going to follow me, how the fuck would he do it now?

[rondog]

Stupid old fuck took an incredibly stupid risk to pull an incredibly stupid stunt. He should be banned from the shop forever at the very least. He's damn lucky he didn't get shot by someone else, or at least drawn down on and put to the floor, then hauled away in cuffs. A quick and violent reaction by ANYONE nearby certainly would have been warranted, IMO.

Let's hope he realized the foolishness and stupidity of his action, and doesn't try it again. Next time, he might not be so lucky, and try it with someone who'll fuck him up in 1.5 seconds.

[ChadAmberg]

Did anyone follow the link to the original forum post? I was really confused while reading it, like some posts were deleted. Some references were that the old guy who took the gun was actually a cop, it's not very clear.