ATF agents point machine guns at 8-year-old Burst into home after being told fugitive had moved out

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[Uberjager]

Sounds like a hybrid of Gestapo and Down syndrome behavior.

[rondog]

I hope she gets a good enough lawyer to sue the living shit out of them, and win. There's no reason or justification for that BS in the USA. Happens far too often. And they wonder why they're called Jackbooted Thugs.

[Mazin]

Cha & Ching

[JM Ver. 2.0]

[Bang]

Here we go again... Get your armchairs ready... It's super bowl time!

[Robb]

Saw this on 9News a couple of weeks ago. I'm glad it's getting at least a little airtime. +1 on a lawyer and pursuing this. I think we'd all hate for this to become commonplace.
R

[blm28]

I only heard one side of the story. There are almost always three.

[UncleDave]

[Bang]

Here we go again... Get your armchairs ready... It's super bowl time!

JM can you honestly say that this type of action is justified? No warrant and brandishing MP10's I assume if it was ATF at an 8 year old. Come on man. This is not about hating on the police, it is about right and wrong.

[UncleDave]

I only heard one side of the story. There are almost always three.

Agreed. However if this is anywhere close to the truth it is outrageous.

[blm28]

If it is true, I agree.

[Wulf202]

not the first time Greeley pd has violated search and seizure laws this year.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

JM can you honestly say that this type of action is justified? No warrant and brandishing MP10's I assume if it was ATF at an 8 year old. Come on man. This is not about hating on the police, it is about right and wrong.


No one knows the entire story... So far, all you have is the side of the incident as stated by a single mother.

Also, if there is information that a fugitive is in a location there isn't a warrant needed. Said fugitive will already have a warrant out for his arrest. SO! For them to say there was no warrant is false.

EDIT: To the above comment... Said information could come in many forms... I'm not saying there WAS information. I'm just saying what could/would justify the actions...

Telling the police "they don't live here anymore" isn't enough... What do you expect to happen... "Oh? Not living here anymore? Well you look honest, so, you must be telling the truth... Ok then, sorry to bother you. BYE!" Really? No. You have all the liars to thank for that...

Pointing a gun at a kid... What does the kid look like? I've seen some kids that don't look like kids... Not saying it was the right thing to do, just saying... Also I've never heard of the agency I work for using lasers... I know the regular Deputies aren't allowed to have lasers on their duty weapons. SWAT I'm not sure about, but I've not head anything about them using them. But that's where I work, not Greeley or the ATF...

As far as being handled in a rough manner... Happens to EVERYONE inside the building... That's just the way those things are done.


Depending on what the fugitive is wanted for, you can have 2 types of raids...
Knock and Announce (what this was) or a No Knock Raid (what this was NOT).
She said she was in the shower with the radio on... She might not have heard it all.



NOW! Assuming that everything the lady says is true... About how she had previously informed the police the fugitive moved... Sure, then this was probably a bit much.

BUT! The lady obviously knew who the fugitive was. I mean, how else did she know the person gets section 8?

All I'm saying is... Don't jump to conclusions. There's more to this than the artical says.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

not the first time Greeley pd has violated search and seizure laws this year.


I didn't see your comment while I was typing... Read my comment.

[yankeefan98121]

I only heard one side of the story. There are almost always three.

the woman's side, the ATF's side and the truth [Muaha]

[asmo]

We have failed as a society:


Last year, the Indiana Supreme Court ruled that “there is no right to reasonably resist unlawful entry by police officers.” In issuing its ruling the court said public policy disfavors such a right.

The court admitted it was overturning hundreds of years of law going back to the Magna Carta as well as U.S. Supreme Court decisions. The court dismissed the decisions, saying, “We believe however that a right to resist an unlawful police entry into a home is against public policy and is incompatible with modern Fourth Amendment jurisprudence.”

[sniper7]

Im just glad a dog wasn't involved.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

We have failed as a society:


I don't suppose you have any idea why they ruled that way, do you?

[ROFL1]

[Wulf202]

I didn't see your comment while I was typing... Read my comment.

my comment was not about this case but about another ongoing case against Greeley pd.

they are getting tired of criminals up here but they are ignoring parts of the constitution to accomplish their goals it seems.

[UncleDave]

I don't suppose you have any idea why they ruled that way, do you?

[ROFL1]

It does not matter why they ruled that way. They admitted that their decision flys in the face of hundreds of years of precedents including the Supreme Court of the United States, which is binding law of the land.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

my comment was not about this case but about another ongoing case against Greeley pd.

they are getting tired of criminals up here but they are ignoring parts of the constitution to accomplish their goals it seems.


Ok. Well... My comment still stands... If the police are told that there is a fugitive in your house... Depending on what the fugitive is wanted for... They're gonna come kick your door down.. And you can't tell them to stop..

[Zundfolge]

I don't suppose you have any idea why they ruled that way, do you?

Yes, because our Constitution is an impediment to tyrants. The Tyrants are rising (at all levels of government) and thus the Constitution must be limited piece by piece until eliminated.


Ok. Well... My comment still stands... If the police are told that there is a fugitive in your house... Depending on what the fugitive is wanted for... They're gonna come kick your door down.. And you can't tell them to stop..

That's part of the problem. "Kicking down doors" is something that should ONLY be reserved for hostage rescue. Period. At least it would be in the Constitutional Republic America was designed to be but then I refer to my first comment.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Yes, because our Constitution is an impediment to tyrants. The Tyrants are rising (at all levels of government) and thus the Constitution must be limited piece by piece until eliminated.

Tell the SWAT team that just kicked in your door that you'd like them to leave... Resist and it'll only be worse for you. It'd be SAFER for you to NOT resist...

That's part of the problem. "Kicking down doors" is something that should ONLY be reserved for hostage rescue. Period. At least it would be in the Constitutional Republic America was designed to be but then I refer to my first comment.

No... You thinking that is part of the problem... You've more or less just said that harboring a fugitive should be legal.. Which it shouldn't be.

[UncleDave]

That kicking in of doors because we think someone might be in this house is one of the reasons the founding fathers rose up. It was one of the main reasons for the uprising that brought about the Magna Carta. It was also one of the main reasons for several hundred years of fighting in Ireland.

[flan7211]

[quote=Zundfolge;492909]Yes, because our Constitution is an impediment to tyrants. The Tyrants are rising (at all levels of government) and thus the Constitution must be limited piece by piece until eliminated.

Hear, hear. What is being touted as a "Pro-Police" set of rules is really just the withering away of the Anglo speaking worlds' tradition of a man's home is his castle.

[Wulf202]

Ok. Well... My comment still stands... If the police are told that there is a fugitive in your house... Depending on what the fugitive is wanted for... They're gonna come kick your door down.. And you can't tell them to stop..

welcome to a police state.

[Zundfolge]

No... You thinking that is part of the problem... You've more or less just said that harboring a fugitive should be legal.. Which it shouldn't be.
No I said that the people should be have the right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Machine-gun toting thugs acting as agents of the state, kicking in doors willy nilly is not how America is supposed to be constituted.

Too many in law enforcement see our constitution as an impediment to be worked around or eliminated ... when they finally get their way it's really going to suck to live here (for them too).

So you seem to be more or less saying that you'd rather live in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany or Illinois.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

welcome to a police state.


Welcome to a thing called an arrest warrant...

We can play this game all you want.

Funny thing: In 24 years of life the police have never kicked down my door... Call me crazy, but I think it's because I've never done anything wrong.

[Wulf202]

Ok. Well... My comment still stands... If the police are told that there is a fugitive in your house... Depending on what the fugitive is wanted for... They're gonna come kick your door down.. And you can't tell them to stop..

in the second article posted they give details that the person hadn't lived there in a year.

someone dropped the ball. more likely the atf agents and Greeley pd was just the muscle.

[Great-Kazoo]

If we compared responses here to the Aurora PD 2 hour fugitive waiting thread have any of the opinions changed since this thread is ATF/ICE and the other is Local PD?

[Zundfolge]

Funny thing: In 24 years of life the police have never kicked down my door... Call me crazy, but I think it's because I've never done anything wrong.
Well if we give the police more latitude to act as roving gangs of thugs or as military specops units then that statement will become less and less the reality for more and more law abiding Americans.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[JM Ver. 2.0]

No I said that the people should be have the right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Machine-gun toting thugs acting as agents of the state, kicking in doors willy nilly is not how America is supposed to be constituted.

Too many in law enforcement see our constitution as an impediment to be worked around or eliminated ... when they finally get their way it's really going to suck to live here (for them too).

So you seem to be more or less saying that you'd rather live in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany or Illinois.


You pretty much just proved my points... See the red areas...

ARREST WARRANT...

If someone gave the police information that the fugitive was there, that is all the PC needed to kick down a door if there is an active arrest warrant for the fugitive. If said fugitive is NOT there, then the informant can be charged with false reporting. Thus, that is why you don't have all kinds of bullshit reports flying around.

Since we DO NOT know how the truth as to how the police came to believe the fugitive was there we CAN NOT say that kicking in the door was illegal.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

first off JMaier, you are a damn poser. go get POST certified, so you can actually be a cop. you dont know shit. you are a dumb kid with a chip on his shoulder, you should never be a cop, you will just be part of the problem.

I was POST certified.

Wake up America, cops are not a protected class of citizens. They are just citizens. We bash politicians, mechanics, CEOs. Criticizing cops is no different. We need to keep an eye on every thing that a cop does. Why??? because they are paid to serve US. Protect US. we must keep them in line, just as we need to keep politicians in line. They work for us... We dont bow to them. They are not anymore important or special than any other citizen. They dont deserve any more respect, than you would give your mechanic. They are people too. They do a job, that needs to be done, just like the mechanic, farmer, teacher, or septic pumper. They know the rules, pay and hours going into the job. They must abide by the rules. And if they dont we need to point it out, that way we keep them on the straight and narrow. I have many friends and family members who are cops. Most cops are just trying to do a job. Sometimes they screw up. Their job is no where near as stressful as A pilot with hundreds of passengers. who is subject to much more stress than a cop on any given day. Yet we are allowed to criticize and poke fun of them when they screw up. Cops are no different.

As AMERICANS we owe it to all other Americans to keep Law Enforcement honest. be that, local, state or federal.

Power corrupts. Thats why we must keep people in a position of power in check, at all times.

Name calling. Cute. [ROFL2]

I didn't say you couldn't talk smack about the cops. Talk all the smack you want. I'm just saying not to jump on the bandwagon.

YOU seem to have a chip on YOUR shoulder. I don't care. I post because it's fun. People like you take the posts to heart and get all butt hurt. Which makes me do things like this [ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3].

Maybe you should calm down, yeah? They make pills for that.

[lowspeed_highdrag]

The only thing standing in the way of these upstanding officers and them getting their job done is that meddling constitution!! I mean, if someone says a fugitive is in your house, then the cops should be able to just kick that door right in and search everything, I mean...think of the children!

I think the 4th ammendment should be rewritten as:


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Except of course when the Police Officers really want to search your house, then the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches will be null and void.

Dont you all remember the American way? Our forefather submitted to their leaders and bowed down. They wouldnt have wanted us to speak out against injustices or to rise up against tyranny, because that just wouldnt be the American way.





.....................................-.......................................

SOS Gents

[cstone]

I hope she gets a good enough lawyer to sue the living shit out of them, and win. There's no reason or justification for that BS in the USA. Happens far too often. And they wonder why they're called Jackbooted Thugs.


Denver attorney David Lane = good enough for Ward Churchill [Coffee]
This case will be decided in a court room, where it should be. Better there than in a shooting match against well armed agents of the government.

This part is not intended for anyone in particular, only those who seem inclined to make absurd comparisons:
As for society having failed or this being a police state, I must question your lack of historical perspective. As a general rule, whenever I start hearing comparisons to the Gestapo or Nazis, the word "hyperbole" comes to mind. The Gestapo and the Nazi party murdered millions of human beings with no other justification besides the need to eliminate what they felt were racially inferior human beings. As bad as this administration may be, they are not even close to being the types of monsters who committed the crimes against humanity during WWII.

Be safe.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

I feel this thread turning in the direction of the other one... And I'm driving the bus... :D

[DavieD55]

first off JMaier, you are a damn poser. go get POST certified, so you can actually be a cop. you dont know shit. you are a dumb kid with a chip on his shoulder, you should never be a cop, you will just be part of the problem.

I was POST certified.

Wake up America, cops are not a protected class of citizens. They are just citizens. We bash politicians, mechanics, CEOs. Criticizing cops is no different. We need to keep an eye on every thing that a cop does. Why??? because they are paid to serve US. Protect US. we must keep them in line, just as we need to keep politicians in line. They work for us... We dont bow to them. They are not anymore important or special than any other citizen. They dont deserve any more respect, than you would give your mechanic. They are people too. They do a job, that needs to be done, just like the mechanic, farmer, teacher, or septic pumper. They know the rules, pay and hours going into the job. They must abide by the rules. And if they dont we need to point it out, that way we keep them on the straight and narrow. I have many friends and family members who are cops. Most cops are just trying to do a job. Sometimes they screw up. Their job is no where near as stressful as A pilot with hundreds of passengers. who is subject to much more stress than a cop on any given day. Yet we are allowed to criticize and poke fun of them when they screw up. Cops are no different.

As AMERICANS we owe it to all other Americans to keep Law Enforcement honest. be that, local, state or federal.

Power corrupts. Thats why we must keep people in a position of power in check, at all times.
Exactly! +1 All the way. [Beer] Some people are blinded by their own Arrogance.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[Zundfolge]

I feel this thread turning in the direction of the other one... And I'm driving the bus... :D
And I'm not yet convinced you're not drunk [Beer]

[JM Ver. 2.0]

And I'm not yet convinced you're not drunk [Beer]
Wasted.... Chocolate Wasted!!!!! That's the only part about that movie I remember... I don't even remember the movie, just that that line came from one.

If there's one thing I've learned in the months I've been here... No such thing as a civil "cop fucked up" thread... Might as well derail it sooner than later.

[Zundfolge]

As bad as this administration may be, they are not even close to being the types of monsters who committed the crimes against humanity during WWII.

I agree, but as the old saying goes eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. If we're not careful our law enforcement agents WILL be the same type of monsters who commit crimes against humanity.

We may have a long way to go but we are headed that way. For the love of Pete the Department of Education has their own SWAT teams and are using "dynamic entry" raids on people that haven't paid their student loans ... and the FDA has their paramilitary units raiding hippy and Amish whole milk producers ... and the EPA is using military drones to monitor ranchers in Nebraska.

A quick perusal of recent history shows us that all too often "Today's hyperbole is tomorrows reality."

[JM Ver. 2.0]

I will say this... Thanks to all the tinfoil hat people that think the Government is out to take their guns... I have no fear of ever losing mine... Just the thought of an army full of rednecks makes me scared. I wonder what the government thinks about it...

:D

[lowspeed_highdrag]

for anyone in particular, only those who seem inclined to make absurd comparisons:
As for society having failed or this being a police state, I must question your lack of historical perspective. As a general rule, whenever I start hearing comparisons to the Gestapo or Nazis, the word "hyperbole" comes to mind. The Gestapo and the Nazi party murdered millions of human beings with no other justification besides the need to eliminate what they felt were racially inferior human beings. As bad as this administration may be, they are not even close to being the types of monsters who committed the crimes against humanity during WWII.

Be safe.
Tell me then, did the Nazi regime come to power overnight then? Was the holocaust commited in a surprise afternoon? Or was there a slow erosion of rights that finally allowed a total despotic powergrab? You seem to not understand how the powers of a 1930's Germany came to be. It was not overnight, it was not fast, but rather slow, cold, and calculated. Hitler didnt start out by murdering Jews, he started by limited freedoms in order to better "protect" his citizens, and they fell for it just as we do today. The end result in America may never be another Holocaust, but it will be certainly be something that we will regret allowing to the day we die.

Please, before making claims such as the one you did, do some reasearch first.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Tell me then, did the Nazi regime come to power overnight then? Was the holocaust commited in a surprise afternoon? Or was there a slow erosion of rights that finally allowed a total despotic powergrab? You seem to not understand how the powers of a 1930's Germany came to be. It was not overnight, it was not fast, but rather slow, cold, and calculated. Hitler didnt start out by murdering Jews, he started by limited freedoms in order to better "protect" his citizens, and they fell for it just as we do today. The end result in America may never be another Holocaust, but it will be certainly be something that we will regret allowing to the day we die.

Please, before making claims such as the one you did, do some reasearch first.


I gotta ask... And I don't mean this in a negative way at all...

What, exactly, are you doing to prevent the event you think are coming?

[lowspeed_highdrag]

I gotta ask... And I don't mean this in a negative way at all...

What, exactly, are you doing to prevent the event you think are coming?
The same thing every other American should be doing:

Educating themselves on the issues
Speaking out against injustices
Voting


What, would you like me to say I have formed some super secret militia so you and your Security Guard Swat Team can "take me down" in order to prerserve national security? I dont think so brown shirt.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

The same thing every other American should be doing:

Educating themselves on the issues
Speaking out against injustices
Voting


What, would you like me to say I have formed some super secret militia so you and your Security Guard Swat Team can "take me down" in order to prerserve national security? I dont think so brown shirt.


I was just asking, bro... You need to calm down... Just curious if there was anything else I needed to be doing other than voting.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[SideShow Bob]

Ok. Well... My comment still stands... If the police are told that there is a fugitive in your house... Depending on what the fugitive is wanted for... They're gonna come kick your door down.. And you can't tell them to stop..
I know this is going to sound like an Atrain or Ronin story but.........
Several years ago in a house that I rented, I was visited by the local county sheriffs three separate times over the course of two years trying to serve a warrant on the previous tenant.
Each time I informed them that no such person lived there and I did not know said person. And each time they left, they wrote down the license plate numbers of all the vehicles in my driveway.
You think that maybe they could have pulled their heads out of their fourth corner contact and saved our tax dollars and themselves the extra wasted trips by doing a little more investigation after the first trip ?
And no, I did not allow them entry into my home on any of the three visits, but I was rather rude and discourteous on their third visit.

[cstone]

Tell me then, did the Nazi regime come to power overnight then? Was the holocaust commited in a surprise afternoon? Or was there a slow erosion of rights that finally allowed a total despotic powergrab? You seem to not understand how the powers of a 1930's Germany came to be. It was not overnight, it was not fast, but rather slow, cold, and calculated. Hitler didnt start out by murdering Jews, he started by limited freedoms in order to better "protect" his citizens, and they fell for it just as we do today. The end result in America may never be another Holocaust, but it will be certainly be something that we will regret allowing to the day we die.

Please, before making claims such as the one you did, do some reasearch first.

Thank you. I will try to continue my research.

I know how the Weimar Republic was coopted by the Nazi party and how Hitler and the Brown Shirts bullied their way into power. I do not believe the often told story of how the German people were duped into supporting the Nazis, and one day, all of a suddent they woke up to realize a despot was driving the country headlong into another WW. I personally believe that people (including the German people in the 1930's) got almost exactly what they wanted, and that was; revenge for the humiliation at the hands of the Allies after WWI, restoration to the power and prestige which they felt they were due as a nation of destiny, and growth and affluence in their living standard. Hitler promised them these things, and he delivered, but at what cost?

I also believe that many people throughout Europe, as well as the Germans, were happy to treat the Jews as scapegoats and targets for their frustration. Much of German anti-Judism can be traced to the great Protestant reformer, Martin Luther. I have spent a great deal of time reading and researching the role of the Confessing Church and Neibauer and Bonhoefer. Some people behaved in their own self interest. Some people behaved ethically as they felt complelled by their belief in God. I hope we all can say we did what we felt was right when those times come in our own lives. Those kinds of choices seem to come more often than we realize.

I still stand by my opinion that we, 21st Century America, are not currently even remotely similar to Germany in the first half of the 20th Century. I honestly would argue that when it comes to crimes against humanity, the Germans don't even make the top 5 list. The Soviet Union under Stalin, the Chinese off and on throughout history, not to mention under Mao, Paul Pot and the Khmer Rouge, etc... These regimes make Hitler almost look like an amatuer.

My point is that when you compare a warrantless raid by BATFE agents with the Gestapo, your credibility with people who have studied history becomes strained. I would respectfully ask that before someone calls the Aurora PD or the BATFE the American equivalent of the NKVD or the Stasi, they consider the argument and dial it back a bit.

Really, I think most of us would agree that we love this country and we do not want it to become a police state or a nation of anarchy. It just seems to me that we can discuss these current events with a bit more civility and express ourselves without throwing the Nazi flag like it was happening before our very eyes.

Everyone has an opinion. This is mine.

Be safe.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Several years ago in a house that I rented, I was visited by the local county sheriffs three separate times over the course of two years trying to serve a warrant on the previous tenant.
Each time I informed them that no such person lived there and I did not know said person.and each time they left, they wrote down the license plate numbers of all the vehicles in my driveway.
You think that maybe they could have pulled their heads out of their fourth corner contact and saved our tax dollars and themselves the extra wasted trips by doing a little more investigation after the first trip ?
And no, I did not allow them entry into my home on any of the three visits, but I was rather rude and discourteous on their third visit.


I don't blame you, sir. THAT is a pretty clear reason to be upset. I'd be upset for sure.

[MuzzleFlash]

I gotta ask... And I don't mean this in a negative way at all...

What, exactly, are you doing to prevent the event you think are coming?
Folks, this dude has been here for only a month as of today he has 254 posts. Does that sound like a POST certified full-time cop to you or a part-time, cruiser washing, mall ninja troll wannabe? It would seem that some people enjoy derailing what should be a respectful discussion by folks on of both sides of an issue that turns on constitutional principles.

Fortunately, vBulletin has an ignore list feature. You'll find it on the user CP page linked in the upper left corner of this page heading. I encourage you to be judicious in its use, but once you're positive that a given user is a net negative contributor, it might just work for you. It will for me in this case.

Adios to JM Ver. 2.0, the inaugural entry to my ignore list.

[SideShow Bob]

I don't blame you, sir. THAT is a pretty clear reason to be upset. I'd be upset for sure.

The worst part of it was that it was the same two plain clothes officers all three times !!!

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Folks, this dude has been here for only a month as of today he has 254 posts. Does that sound like a POST certified full-time cop to you or a part-time, cruiser washing, mall ninja troll wannabe? It would seem that some people enjoy derailing what should be a respectful discussion by folks on of both sides of an issue that turns on constitutional principles.

Fortunately, vBulletin has an ignore list feature. You'll find it on the user CP page linked in the upper left corner of this page heading. I encourage you to be judicious in its use, but once you're positive that a given user is a net negative contributor, it might just work for you. It will for me in this case.

Adios to JM Ver. 2.0, the inaugural entry to my ignore list.

Actually it's been like 6 months.. The great crash killed me..

And if you'll notice... The only time I troll is in these treads.. Because they always turn to shit. But hey, you can't see this...

Oh, and I never claimed to be a cop, cupcake. [Pepsi]


The worst part of it was that it was the same two plain clothes officers all three times !!!

Yeah. That makes it worse... There could have been some sort of policy in place though... Maybe they're required to make 3 attempts at the last known address? I donno. Sounds like once should have been enough though.

[SouthPaw]

I don't blame you, sir. THAT is a pretty clear reason to be upset. I'd be upset for sure.


No one knows the entire story... So far, all you have is the side of the incident as stated by a single mother.

Also, if there is information that a fugitive is in a location there isn't a warrant needed. Said fugitive will already have a warrant out for his arrest. SO! For them to say there was no warrant is false.


Telling the police "they don't live here anymore" isn't enough... What do you expect to happen... "Oh? Not living here anymore? Well you look honest, so, you must be telling the truth... Ok then, sorry to bother you. BYE!" Really? No. You have all the liars to thank for that...


Ummm [Dunno]

[sabot_round]

[Pop]

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Ummm [Dunno]


They weren't kicking his door down... It wasn't a raid...

What I meant by the comment was, trying to resist during a raid will turn badly.

In Bob's case, it was a simple serving. They only do that for low risk things... Traffic tickets and FTAs for little things... DUI maybe...

Murder, rape, drug or gang stuff... That gets dealt with via raid.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

[Pop]
I'm on my 5th bucket... [ROFL1][Pepsi]

[scratchy]

Folks, this dude has been here for only a month as of today he has 254 posts. .....
Adios to JM Ver. 2.0, the inaugural entry to my ignore list.

Aww I for one am entertained and enjoy jmaier's posts. Post count isn't the best measure of a member here. We all from time to time rub someone the wrong way.

Actually, I think he lost 1300+ posts in the great crash.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Aww I for one am entertained and enjoy jmaier's posts. Post count isn't the best measure of a member here. We all from time to time rub someone the wrong way.

Actually, I think he lost 1300+ posts in the great crash.


I only rub in these threads... And the yoga pants thread... And the hockey thread... But that's a different kind of rubbing. [ROFL1][ROFL3]

And yes. I did... Lost well over 1,000 posts.

[SideShow Bob]

Back on topic:
According to the article, several months before the raid, agents or officers had been there looking for whomever and was informed then that the PREVIOUS TENANT no longer lived there.
So maybe they could have done some more investigation like check the utility companies to see who is paying the bills, or with the landlord to verify the occupants or if it was section 8 housing, check with the housing authority.
Or even do a little surveillance to confirm that the Bad guy they were looking for actually lived there . Instead of taking the word of some crackhead informant that they just paid $20 that so and so still lived there ?

[HBARleatherneck]

deleteforum.

[lpgasman]

Aww I for one am entertained and enjoy jmaier's posts. Post count isn't the best measure of a member here. We all from time to time rub someone the wrong way.

Actually, I think he lost 1300+ posts in the great crash.

"Measure of a member"&"rub someone" I am slightly aroused.[Tooth]

[SideShow Bob]

I only rub in these threads...
And yes. I did... Lost well over 1,000 posts.

admit it, you are just a post WHORE of the worst kind........[ROFL1]

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Back on topic:
According to the article, several months before the raid, agents or officers had been there looking for whomever and was informed then that the PREVIOUS TENANT no longer lived there.
So maybe they could have done some more investigation like check the utility companies to see who is paying the bills, or with the landlord to verify the occupants or if it was section 8 housing, check with the housing authority.
Or even do a little surveillance to confirm that the Bad guy they were looking for actually lived there . Instead of taking the word of some crackhead informant that they just paid $20 that so and so still lived there ?

That's why I said there might be more to it than we know. But, from the artical, it sounds like someone dropped the ball.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

"Measure of a member"&"rub someone" I am slightly aroused.[Tooth]

http://www.justsaypictures.com/images/that-makes-me-moist.jpg


admit it, you are just a post WHORE of the worst kind........[ROFL1]

Damn right.

http://rlv.zcache.com/proud_man_whore_tshirt-p235939510004591232en7l3_210.jpg

[lpgasman]

Thanks JM I just tossed my cookies. "I'm moist"? I wonder if it looks like cottage cheese?

[sabot_round]

That's why I said there might be more to it than we know. But, from the artical, it sounds like someone dropped the ball.
No shit!!

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Thanks JM I just tossed my cookies. "I'm moist"? I wonder if it looks like cottage cheese?


You're welcome. [ROFL1]

[UncleDave]

No, a bulldog eating a jar of mayonnaise! [Help]

[JM Ver. 2.0]

No, a bulldog eating a jar of mayonnaise! [Help]
I wonder if there's a google ima..... Oh... Oh dear.... Oh dear God...

[Puke][Puke][Puke]

[lpgasman]

No, a bulldog eating a jar of mayonnaise! [Help]

Yum, Seconds!

[TFOGGER]

I too have been subject to the elusive "nobody by that name lives here" visit. My story is a bit different. I was living in an apartment on Green Mountain. Got home from work about 1900, cleaned up, ate dinner, read for a while, then went to bed about 2300. fast forward to 0330, when some douchebag is pounding on my door. I get up, find some pants, and go out to the living room, where 4 Lakewood cops are still beating on the door like it's a rented mule, shouting "Lakewood Police". So I open the door, and in the most civil tone I can muster say "Can I help you, Officers?". They ask, "Are you So and So?", to which I answer "No". "Is this apartment 103?", at which point I look pointedly at the 5 inch high numbers directly above the peephole that read "105", then point at the apartment door just around the corner of the courtyard that says "103", ask them if there's anything else I can assist them with, and close the door...


Real f*ckin' rocket scientists, there...

[JM Ver. 2.0]

I too have been subject to the elusive "nobody by that name lives here" visit. My story is a bit different. I was living in an apartment on Green Mountain. Got home from work about 1900, cleaned up, ate dinner, read for a while, then went to bed about 2300. fast forward to 0330, when some douchebag is pounding on my door. I get up, find some pants, and go out to the living room, where 4 Lakewood cops are still beating on the door like it's a rented mule, shouting "Lakewood Police". So I open the door, and in the most civil tone I can muster say "Can I help you, Officers?". They ask, "Are you So and So?", to which I answer "No". "Is this apartment 103?", at which point I look pointedly at the 5 inch high numbers directly above the peephole that read "105", then point at the apartment door just around the corner of the courtyard that says "103", ask them if there's anything else I can assist them with, and close the door...


Real f*ckin' rocket scientists, there...

[ROFL2]
Reminds me of a time when I worked for Comcast and misread a work order...

7-8am appointment on a Saturday... Work order said 5th St. but I went to 15th st... Knock on the door... Girl answers... In the living room of the apartment is no less than 10 passed out, naked girls... The girl that answered was in a bra and VERY short shorts...

Best mistake I ever made... She was nice about it. We chatted for a bit and I went on my way.

[sabot_round]

I too have been subject to the elusive "nobody by that name lives here" visit. My story is a bit different. I was living in an apartment on Green Mountain. Got home from work about 1900, cleaned up, ate dinner, read for a while, then went to bed about 2300. fast forward to 0330, when some douchebag is pounding on my door. I get up, find some pants, and go out to the living room, where 4 Lakewood cops are still beating on the door like it's a rented mule, shouting "Lakewood Police". So I open the door, and in the most civil tone I can muster say "Can I help you, Officers?". They ask, "Are you So and So?", to which I answer "No". "Is this apartment 103?", at which point I look pointedly at the 5 inch high numbers directly above the peephole that read "105", then point at the apartment door just around the corner of the courtyard that says "103", ask them if there's anything else I can assist them with, and close the door...


Real f*ckin' rocket scientists, there...[ROFL3] That is an awesome story!! I probably will be [Rant1] at them for being so stupid.

[SideShow Bob]

[ROFL2]
Reminds me of a time when I worked for Comcast and misread a work order...

7-8am appointment on a Saturday... Work order said 5th St. but I went to 15th st... Knock on the door... Girl answers... In the living room of the apartment is no less than 10 passed out, naked girls... The girl that answered was in a bra and VERY short shorts...

Best mistake I ever made... She was nice about it. We chatted for a bit and I went on my way.

Admit, you were just stalking them, and found a reason to knock on their door..........[Coffee]

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Admit, you were just stalking them, and found a reason to knock on their door..........[Coffee]
Stalking is a crime, sir...

[Tinelement]

Holy motherfu*king shit!

I just spent 20 minutes of my life reading through all those crap posts.

God damn you girls argue like men sometimes!

Seriously! Shop is always open if you guys wanna come over and drink some beer and relax.............yes jmaier, there is water in the faucet

[TriggerHappy]

Stalking is a crime, sir...

And your point??

[Colorado Luckydog]

Reminds me of a time when I worked for Comcast and misread a work order...


I knew there had had to be a reason you had such vast wisdom. I just knew it. I mean, I freaking knew it!! WOW!!!!

Thanks for sharing all of your wisdom!! I know I sound sarcastic but I'm very sincere!! I just knew your were SO SMART!! Keep up the great post of wisdom please!!! Thanks again.

[Beer][ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]

[sniper7]

Welcome to a thing called an arrest warrant...

We can play this game all you want.

Funny thing: In 24 years of life the police have never kicked down my door... Call me crazy, but I think it's because I've never done anything wrong.

when the female cop whos husbands ass you were oogling on the bicycle finds out where you live you will be singing a different tune[LOL]

[sniper7]

Thank you. I will try to continue my research.

I know how the Weimar Republic was coopted by the Nazi party and how Hitler and the Brown Shirts bullied their way into power. I do not believe the often told story of how the German people were duped into supporting the Nazis, and one day, all of a suddent they woke up to realize a despot was driving the country headlong into another WW. I personally believe that people (including the German people in the 1930's) got almost exactly what they wanted, and that was; revenge for the humiliation at the hands of the Allies after WWI, restoration to the power and prestige which they felt they were due as a nation of destiny, and growth and affluence in their living standard. Hitler promised them these things, and he delivered, but at what cost?

I also believe that many people throughout Europe, as well as the Germans, were happy to treat the Jews as scapegoats and targets for their frustration. Much of German anti-Judism can be traced to the great Protestant reformer, Martin Luther. I have spent a great deal of time reading and researching the role of the Confessing Church and Neibauer and Bonhoefer. Some people behaved in their own self interest. Some people behaved ethically as they felt complelled by their belief in God. I hope we all can say we did what we felt was right when those times come in our own lives. Those kinds of choices seem to come more often than we realize.





kind of going off what you said here, but what about the so called 99%? they are a long ways out and this is probably far fetched...but you never know. they are out looking for handouts, for a leader to give them what they want, someone to follow, to listen to their ridiculous wants and needs. They have named the 1% as their sworn enemy and have engaged in tactics to try and hurt businesses, harass their enemy etc. all it takes is time, and the 1 person or group to lead them to taking up arms.

again, a little far fetched as I believe most of these people are definitely the stupidest people in their local region all coming together, and I believe the others who are not the so called "99%" are quite a bit better prepared and armed etc.

anyways, just a few thoughts!

[Ah Pook]

Folks, this dude has been here for only a month as of today he has 254 posts. Does that sound like a POST certified full-time cop to you or a part-time, cruiser washing, mall ninja troll wannabe? It would seem that some people enjoy derailing what should be a respectful discussion by folks on of both sides of an issue that turns on constitutional principles.

Fortunately, vBulletin has an ignore list feature. You'll find it on the user CP page linked in the upper left corner of this page heading. I encourage you to be judicious in its use, but once you're positive that a given user is a net negative contributor, it might just work for you. It will for me in this case.

Adios to JM Ver. 2.0, the inaugural entry to my ignore list.
I put him on ignore last week. Makes for a lot less crap to look at. A troll is gunna troll.

[cstone]

kind of going off what you said here, but what about the so called 99%? they are a long ways out and this is probably far fetched...but you never know. they are out looking for handouts, for a leader to give them what they want, someone to follow, to listen to their ridiculous wants and needs. They have named the 1% as their sworn enemy and have engaged in tactics to try and hurt businesses, harass their enemy etc. all it takes is time, and the 1 person or group to lead them to taking up arms.

again, a little far fetched as I believe most of these people are definitely the stupidest people in their local region all coming together, and I believe the others who are not the so called "99%" are quite a bit better prepared and armed etc.

anyways, just a few thoughts!

What I have seen of the group in downtown Denver has reinforced my impression that a healthy percentage of the group are the normally present homeless population from Civic Center Park. Many of the homeless are dealing with mental health issues and often self medicate with whatever substances they have handy.

Watching some of the more vocal and organized leaders in the different groups, New York City and Oakland, being the ones that seemed to get the most news coverage, leads me to believe these are the regular, organized protesters who travel and help organize the World Bank and UN protests on a yearly basis. There are a number of web sites and list serves used by this group of organizers, and I have tracked some of these people for about a decade. They put on clinics and training seminars around the country for political action. Other than their consistent socialist tendencies, most if not all of the people in this group routinely support Democratic candidates.

While I personally find their political beliefs to be unfocused and simplistic, they do not cause me a great deal of concern. No one single leader has emerged, and I am not aware of any centralized group of ideologues who are willing to carry out the ideals of any single leader. Most of the "professional protesters" have stated on more than one occasion that they protest to bring about public awareness for whichever issue they have latched onto this week.

No one in these groups have professed any interest or shown any real ability to co-opt the legitimate legal structure either locally or at a national level. While President Obama does come from a similar culture as some of these OWS demonstrators, he has been compelled to temper his protest centered background to fit within the established Democratic party structure. IMO, President Obama has vacillated for the past four years between what he has been and what the Democratic party requires him to be to remain the head of his party. In other words, he can't be counter-culture and anti-establishment and be the Fund-Raiser-in-Chief, at the head of the most powerful military in the world. I don't believe he is comfortable in either role and his compromise is to golf and spend time giving campaign speeches.

The future can bring anything. The American Experiment could fail at any moment. This is no more true today than it was 200 years ago. If we fail, it will not be because we are conquered by an outside force, but the fall will come from within. The balance between a police state and anarchy is a real one. I believe in the Constitution and I know that throughout our 236 years of Independence, our nation has faced greater difficulty than it faces today. We have always faced those difficulties and triumphed. Countless thousands of Americans have died so that we may succeed. Call me an optimist. I believe we, as Americans, still have a great future ahead of us. We should always be vigilant, but never so watchful that we can't be civil to one another in our discussions [Beer]

Be safe.

[El Caballo Loco]

I didn't, nor will I read the rest of the thread as I already see where it's going to end up.


I only heard one side of the story. There are almost always three.


This right here.

Think of it from a mothers perspective:

Laser swooped over her kid.

Even for a split second that would seem like a lifetime to a parent.

Think of it from an agents perspective:

Movement, target? No target. Move on.

If those agents were under the impression the residents were the ones they were looking for, of course this woman is going to be crying and her kid screaming his balls off. You can't expect that intel to be up to date, especially with a small piece of a bigger operation.

Don't just jump on some bandwagon because it's BATFE and deep down you have the power to turn into a bleeding heart liberal when it's something you don't approve of or fail to see the big picture in.

I'm not saying her complaint isn't justified, I'm just saying don't be so one sided, biased or judgmental.

[BushMasterBoy]

Good News! President Obama has sole control of the world largest nuclear arsenal!

[cstone]

Good News! President Obama has sole control of the world largest nuclear arsenal!

And four years later it is right where he found it. [Coffee]

[JM Ver. 2.0]

I didn't, nor will I read the rest of the thread as I already see where it's going to end up.




This right here.

Think of it from a mothers perspective:

Laser swooped over her kid.

Even for a split second that would seem like a lifetime to a parent.

Think of it from an agents perspective:

Movement, target? No target. Move on.

If those agents were under the impression the residents were the ones they were looking for, of course this woman is going to be crying and her kid screaming his balls off. You can't expect that intel to be up to date, especially with a small piece of a bigger operation.

Don't just jump on some bandwagon because it's BATFE and deep down you have the power to turn into a bleeding heart liberal when it's something you don't approve of or fail to see the big picture in.

I'm not saying her complaint isn't justified, I'm just saying don't be so one sided, biased or judgmental.

Which is what I've been saying all along........

[centrarchidae]

So, let me get this straight:

They knocked on your door three times. You didn't let them in any of those times. They didn't force their way in any of those three times. You were rude or something on the third and they still didn't kick your door in.

Yep, sounds jackbooted thuggish to me.


I know this is going to sound like an Atrain or Ronin story but.........
Several years ago in a house that I rented, I was visited by the local county sheriffs three separate times over the course of two years trying to serve a warrant on the previous tenant.
Each time I informed them that no such person lived there and I did not know said person. And each time they left, they wrote down the license plate numbers of all the vehicles in my driveway.
You think that maybe they could have pulled their heads out of their fourth corner contact and saved our tax dollars and themselves the extra wasted trips by doing a little more investigation after the first trip ?
And no, I did not allow them entry into my home on any of the three visits, but I was rather rude and discourteous on their third visit.

[Troublco]

So, let me get this straight:

They knocked on your door three times. You didn't let them in any of those times. They didn't force their way in any of those three times. You were rude or something on the third and they still didn't kick your door in.

Yep, sounds jackbooted thuggish to me.

Troll...

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Troll...

That's my title for these threads. [ROFL2]

[centrarchidae]

If I were trolling, I'd have pointed out that a valid arrest warrant gives legal reason for officers to enter the subject's residence to search for him, and that utility company billing records don't reflect every single person who lives at a given address, and that the legal line between couch-surfing and residence isn't always clear.

I would also, if I were trolling, have posted that the deputies could well have written down the plates because they ran the plates and were required to keep a record of why they checked every plate they check so that the department could prove that they weren't stalking ex-girlfriends or some crap like that.

Then I might also point out that I've been a member since something like 2006 but my post history gets lost with every crash.

Then I'd go back to my original point, that the deputies' knocking and asking and leaving without shoving their way into the house isn't exactly Gestapo behavior.

But, that's trolling.


Troll...

[lowspeed_highdrag]

Aww I for one am entertained and enjoy jmaier's posts. Post count isn't the best measure of a member here. We all from time to time rub someone the wrong way.

Actually, I think he lost 1300+ posts in the great crash.
Post count certainly is not a good way to judge a member, but post content and quality is, to which he has neither. Spend 2 minutes perusing his post history to see that the 10.5 posts per day are pure nonsense. His bio reads" trolling for lolz", and every post I saw by him before I clicked "ban" had this in it: [ROFL1].

Totally off topic and cantankerous, I know, but he hurts the image of the site and brings it down with his nonsense. Any other forum that had more of a focus on technical discussion wouldve canned him when he became the self appointed forum troll.

[clublights]

Welcome to a thing called an arrest warrant...

We can play this game all you want.

Funny thing: In 24 years of life the police have never kicked down my door... Call me crazy, but I think it's because I've never done anything wrong.

I'm sure with 7 pages left to read this has been covered.... but this statement is so ............. WRONG I'm gunna comment also ..


in 37 years they ehav never kicked my door down either.. but your telling me this mother and 8 year old DID do something wrong to have their door kicked in other then HAPPEN To live in a rental property where a bad guy USED to live ???

You have GOT To be fucking kidding me . you can't be that retartded.

[ColoWyo]

YOU seem to have a chip on YOUR shoulder. I don't care. I post because it's fun. People like you take the posts to heart and get all butt hurt. Which makes me do things like this [ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3].

Maybe you should calm down, yeah? They make pills for that.

Really? Talk about a hypocrite.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Post count certainly is not a good way to judge a member, but post content and quality is, to which he has neither. Spend 2 minutes perusing his post history to see that the 10.5 posts per day are pure nonsense. His bio reads" trolling for lolz", and every post I saw by him before I clicked "ban" had this in it: [ROFL1].

Totally off topic and cantankerous, I know, but he hurts the image of the site and brings it down with his nonsense. Any other forum that had more of a focus on technical discussion wouldve canned him when he became the self appointed forum troll.
I wish you could see when I edited that field... I did it just for you, cupcake.


I'm sure with 7 pages left to read this has been covered.... but this statement is so ............. WRONG I'm gunna comment also ..


in 37 years they ehav never kicked my door down either.. but your telling me this mother and 8 year old DID do something wrong to have their door kicked in other then HAPPEN To live in a rental property where a bad guy USED to live ???

You have GOT To be fucking kidding me . you can't be that retartded.

If the arrest warrant shows that address as the last place he lived... Eh. It's not worth it.


Really? Talk about a hypocrite.

What are you talking about?

[RMAC757]

You know JM. I don't think anyone would lose sleep if you left this site ......just sayin

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[SideShow Bob]

So, let me get this straight:

They knocked on your door three times. You didn't let them in any of those times. They didn't force their way in any of those three times. You were rude or something on the third and they still didn't kick your door in.

Yep, sounds jackbooted thuggish to me.

Look, A-hole, I never called them "jack booted thugs", I was only pointing out the lack of investigation and lack of up to date intelligence. And the repeating of an action and expecting different results that these officers operated under........[Tooth]

[JM Ver. 2.0]

You know JM. I don't think anyone would lose sleep if you left this site ......just sayin

Awe.... You're gonna hurt my feelers....[LOL]