View Full Version : E.H. Going down??
BPTactical
06-13-2012, 10:11
The arrogance from this bastard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-526p4EiAX4#!
yankeefan98121
06-13-2012, 10:25
Holder is such a POS.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^that! [Beer]
he doesnt understand why the house oversight committee is not satisfied with all the interviews, 7,600 documents, blah blah blah.
7,600 out of 80,000 requested documents is not satisfactory. who cares what high up DOJ persons say in an interview? they are all protecting their asses and documents linking them to this!
stop acting like 9 apperences in front of the oversight committee is ridiculous when you keep preventing new information from being presented
KevDen2005
06-13-2012, 10:29
I like his disrespectful attitude in front of Congress.
POS!
I hope Congress just reaches down, grabs some fortitude and puts this asshat behind bars for a long long time! Then go after his boss for letting this BS go on for so long.
yankeefan98121
06-13-2012, 10:33
I hope Congress just reaches down, grabs some fortitude and puts this asshat behind bars for a long long time! Then go after his boss for letting this BS go on for so long.
Yeah we'll see what happens, I truly hope they do, but I have a sneaky feeling after all this gop chest pump nothing in the end
Sharpienads
06-13-2012, 10:37
Yet another reason (not like I needed any more) to like Rep Alan West:
http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2012/06/12/allen-west-eric-holder-is-a-national-embarrassment/
National embarrassment is good, ass clown would have been better.
he needs to be in prison by the end of the day. this shit is getting old and it has been ridiculous for a very long time.
yankeefan98121
06-13-2012, 10:44
damn, west had to problem calling out those f'tards
Good for him!
West for POTUS [Beer]
flan7211
06-13-2012, 10:44
He is the one of the tyrants our forefathers warned us of. Resign you trash!
Yet another reason (not like I needed any more) to like Rep Alan West:
http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2012/06/12/allen-west-eric-holder-is-a-national-embarrassment/
National embarrassment is good, ass clown would have been better.
I really wish West was running for Prez this year... I think he'd do a much better job than Romney, but I still stick to my guns, Romney is better than Obama. Hell, my neighbors idiotic yellow lab is better than Obama. People like Holder are the reason phrases like 'pretentious douche' exist
yankeefan98121
06-13-2012, 10:56
Yeah, my vote right now is an abh vote "anybody but him"
onebadfx4
06-13-2012, 12:13
Yeah, my vote right now is an abh vote "anybody but him"
This could be Ralph Nader' year.[ROFL1]
theGinsue
06-13-2012, 12:49
Holder is the appointee of the Teflon Messiah Himself himself.
By defauly, he inherits that teflon coating too and nothing can stick to him - no matter how severe and clearly proven.
Drilldov2.0
06-13-2012, 13:02
Can't wait to see his arrogant ass behind bars.
Holder is the appointee of the Teflon Messiah Himself himself.
By defauly, he inherits that teflon coating too and nothing can stick to him - no matter how severe and clearly proven.
Even a teflon coating can be burned away by enough heat. EH is a lawyer, and thus reprehensible by nature. 99.9% of lawyers give the good ones a bad name. He should not, however, be allowed to resign. He should be indicted, fired, tried, and imprisoned. Given that his complicity in multiple federal offenses resulted in the death of a Federal Agent, he should be incarcerated in a federal maximum security prison, in the general population. [Rant1]
Uberjager
06-13-2012, 13:13
Isn't congress voting next week on whether or not Holder was in contempt of Congress? Something tells me things will get interdasting.
jackthewall81
06-13-2012, 13:58
Criminals.
yankeefan98121
06-13-2012, 14:07
Pussies are already starting to back off not even the "week of" the vote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/13/grassley-open-to-negotiating-with-holder-over-contempt-push-but-sets-high-bar/
Public Hanging for treason.
Well, let's see, our president does it so I can only imagine there will be some crap about Holders race and how republicans are treating him differently for it.
jackthewall81
06-13-2012, 15:15
Well, let's see, our president does it so I can only imagine there will be some crap about Holders race and how republicans are treating him differently for it.
He looks white to me.
Byte Stryke
06-13-2012, 16:49
District of Columbia Law 23- 582(b) reads as follows:
(b) A private person may arrest another -
(1) who he has probable cause to believe is committing in his presence -
(A) a felony, or
(B) an offense enumerated in section 23-581 (a)(2); or
(2) in aid of a law enforcement officer or special policeman, or other person authorized by law to make an arrest.
(c) Any person making an arrest pursuant to this section shall deliver the person arrested to a law enforcement officer without unreasonable delay. (July 29, 1970, 84 Stat. 630, Pub. L. 91-358, Title II, � 210(a); 1973 Ed., � 23-582; Apr. 30, 1988, D.C. Law 7-104, � 7(e), 35 DCR 147.)
http://constitution.org/grossack/arrest.htm
we could just go get him... [Eek3]
BPTactical
06-13-2012, 16:50
Obeyme will protect him.
I am not so sure. If this has the potential to hurt hurt his re erection numbers you can bet he will distance himself.
They eat their own.
On the other hand Holder is Obammys Himmler. He needs a heavy right hand that is blindly loyal to enforce his agenda.
I am not so sure. If this has the potential to hurt hurt his re erection numbers you can bet he will distance himself.
They eat their own.
On the other hand Holder is Obammys Himmler. He needs a heavy right hand that is blindly loyal to enforce his agenda.
Very true. Unfortunately, Byte's solution may be the only one...[Hang]
I am not so sure. If this has the potential to hurt hurt his re erection numbers you can bet he will distance himself.
They eat their own.
On the other hand Holder is Obammys Himmler. He needs a heavy right hand that is blindly loyal to enforce his agenda.
they are even talking about dropping bidden. holder could definitely be out. barack has no loyalty. i read something the other day about how the jessie jackson hasnt been invited to the white house or spoke to obummer since his election. he could careless about these morons around him, cuz if they turn on him they are racist. yes, even jessie jackson could be labels a racist by obama.
Bitter Clinger
06-14-2012, 08:57
Public Hanging for treason.
This. holder is such a POS. I say no prison. Banish him to the middle of the sahara. Give him a half full bottle of water and a fast and furious gun with one round.
Sharpienads
06-14-2012, 09:00
This. holder is such a POS. I say no prison. Banish him to the middle of the sahara. Give him a half full bottle of water and a fast and furious gun with one round.
I'd only give him a half empty bottle of water. I guess you're more optimistic than me.
This. holder is such a POS. I say no prison. Banish him to the middle of the sahara. Give him a half full bottle of water and a fast and furious gun with one round.
"and a fast and furious gun with one round"
Man, your to kind....[Coffee]
This. holder is such a POS. I say no prison. Banish him to the middle of the sahara. Give him a half full bottle of water and a fast and furious gun with one round.
...and a trigger lock. [Rant1]
I agree with everything said so far, except there is no reason yo be loyal to trash.
Eggysrun
06-14-2012, 11:25
So much for transparency and accountability in government....
yankeefan98121
06-14-2012, 12:36
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/14/house-dems-mount-holder-defense-as-republicans-pursue-contempt-vote/
wait for it........it's Bush's fault[ROFL2][ROFL1][ROFL3][LOL]
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/14/house-dems-mount-holder-defense-as-republicans-pursue-contempt-vote/
wait for it........it's Bush's fault[ROFL2][ROFL1][ROFL3][LOL]
SaveMyAssLetter (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2012/06/14/holder-letter-to-issa-on-contempt-proceedings/)....This guy is un-real!!!!!!!!!!!
Richard K
06-14-2012, 17:13
Whatever he's charged with, Obama will pardon him after the election (no matter which way it goes)
BPTactical
06-20-2012, 05:42
Looks like Issa may be sticking to his guns. EH did not supply the documents Issa had requested and he said even if he turns over the documents today he will go ahead with contempt proceedings.
Saw him last night being interviewed and it was very clear he was not happy. He stated he gave EH ample opportunity to provide documents requested and had enough of his stonewalling and never answering questions.
We will see........
Bailey Guns
06-20-2012, 06:04
I think there are three distinct possibilities:
Holder produces all (or a substantial amount) of the documents Issa has requested. 10% chance
They work out some other deal or deadline giving Holder the opportunity to produce the documents. 40% chance
Issa calls for the contempt vote as requested and scheduled for today. 50% chance
I think Issa is pissed...more so that Holder seems to think he's above the law and doesn't respect Congress than about the missing documents and the holdup in the investigation.
I guess I have a little more faith that the Republican-controlled committee will vote to find Holder in contempt. I certainly hope they do. Then I'll be anxious to see a full house vote on it.
The contempt vote in the oversight committee will likely pass considering Republicans outnumber Democrats 22 to 16.
GOP House leadership has given Issa the green light to proceed how he sees fit, sources told Fox News, which suggests the vote would reach the House floor.
They work out some other deal or deadline giving Holder the opportunity to produce the documents. 40% chance
is it sad that i have such a lack of faith in our governemnt that i think this is the 99% chance? the kick the can down the road strategy is much easier than doing your job.
yankeefan98121
06-20-2012, 07:54
is it sad that i have such a lack of faith in our governemnt that i think this is the 99% chance? the kick the can down the road strategy is much easier than doing your job.
Unfortunately that's kind of how I feel about it as well
Quotes from a fox news headline:
"AG E.H asks P odumbo to exert executive privilege over "fast and furious" documents"
Not like the p hasn't exerted executive decisions anything before[ROFL1] [ROFL2] [ROFL3] [LOL] [ROFL2] [ROFL3]
palepainter
06-20-2012, 08:11
One thing that Holder mentioned at the end, was that these hearings were being used for political posturing. Why is it, that there are no Democrats that can see that this is wrong in principal? I mean, not one of them coming forward and saying, ya...the DOJ really messed up? This is what I can not stand about our govt, nobody willing to come foreward and say...We were wrong. Not just on the Dems, but on the Rep side at times as well. But it is particularly evident here.
BPTactical
06-20-2012, 08:36
Unfortunately that's kind of how I feel about it as well
Quotes from a fox news headline:
"AG E.H asks P odumbo to exert executive privilege over "fast and furious" documents
Confirmed on Fox and Drudge: BHO will exert "Executive Privilege" regarding F&F documents.
I just about broke my teeth when I heard this.
Nixon tried this move in WG. Didn't work out too well.
This tells volumes on BHO's knowledge and involvement of F&F.
Confirmed on Fox and Drudge: BHO will exert "Executive Privilege" regarding F&F documents.
I just about broke my teeth when I heard this.
Nixon tried this move in WG. Didn't work out too well.
This tells volumes on BHO's knowledge and involvement of F&F.
Therefore, obama will resign in embarassment like nixon? [Beer] can i dream!?
Bitter Clinger
06-20-2012, 09:04
Confirmed on Fox and Drudge: BHO will exert "Executive Privilege" regarding F&F documents.
I just about broke my teeth when I heard this.
Nixon tried this move in WG. Didn't work out too well.
This tells volumes on BHO's knowledge and involvement of F&F.
Just read that myself. I can literally feel my blood boiling. Makes me think that obozo was in ff up to his eyeballs
BPTactical
06-20-2012, 09:44
Just read that myself. I can literally feel my blood boiling. Makes me think that obozo was in ff up to his eyeballs
You got it Clinger, even if he isn't it "lies at his feet" as was noted in Watergate.
Dirty, rotten Corksoakers, every one of the lying bastards.
yankeefan98121
06-20-2012, 09:50
You got it Clinger, even if he isn't it "lies at his feet" as was noted in Watergate.
Dirty, rotten Corksoakers, every one of the lying bastards.
All those fuckers Dems AND Republicans..but mostly Dems
68Charger
06-20-2012, 10:00
One thing that Holder mentioned at the end, was that these hearings were being used for political posturing. Why is it, that there are no Democrats that can see that this is wrong in principal?
The would require one to have principals...
Just read that myself. I can literally feel my blood boiling. Makes me think that obozo was in ff up to his eyeballs
sounds like there needs to be further investigation into Obama's involvement.
this just gets more and more full of bullshit the deeper they dig.
CrufflerSteve
06-20-2012, 10:06
I've avoided this thread since it really makes me want to use the kind of language that would get me banned. They're all deeply rotten in DC. Many are actively doing the bad stuff and rest go along or they lose their nice deals. This scandal was just smellier than most since it ended up with a lot of dead people. The whole idea was so retarded it couldn't have been for what it was supposed to be. It was going to be used to bash gun owners and their evil guns.
Nixon might have been the last one to not be above the law. Scandal management has become an art. Clinton really perfected it. Deny, destroy evidence and stonewall. Don't cooperate in any way and it blows over. If it gets too hot Holder might resign and end up in some connected law firm making millions.
When government types are too close to legal edges they do push it uphill to get legal finding that will keep them out of jail. Holder is either guilty or incompetent since he didn't know or want to know what his people are doing.
Maybe a couple of low level ATF agents will take a fall. Our justice system only applies to the 'little people'. The top barfbags are above it all.
Steve
Justice System my ass... FAIL!
http://straightfromthea.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Lady-Justice.jpg
Wow, I just don’t know what to say. My first reaction was that I wish harm would come to the pres and company. Ordinarily I would never say such a thing and put our country through that. But shit man, this corruption has got to stop. I suppose now I'll be getting a call from the secret service, unless of course there all out getting laid.................[Mad]
yankeefan98121
06-20-2012, 10:27
with Colombian prostitutes
Npr was reporting about the executive protection and also mentioned that if Congress proceeds, that Holder would have to be prosecuted by the DC attorney and there is a 99% chance that will NOT happen. They also mentioned that it seems like Holder is done with the job and will resign in November, but not before. Is there a statute of limitation for treason?
68Charger
06-20-2012, 12:11
Npr was reporting about the executive protection and also mentioned that if Congress proceeds, that Holder would have to be prosecuted by the DC attorney and there is a 99% chance that will NOT happen. They also mentioned that it seems like Holder is done with the job and will resign in November, but not before. Is there a statute of limitation for treason?
That's probably how this will proceed- from the Post article:
If the House committee cites Holder for criminal contempt, it would open a process that would require House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/B000589)to schedule a floor vote. If passed by the full House, the matter would then move to the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, Ronald C. Machen Jr (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/attorney-general-eric-holder-names-attorneys-to-investigate-leaks/2012/06/08/gJQANhGiOV_story.html)., who is an employee of the Justice Department.
you can figure out for yourself how well this will proceed when he's asked to indict the chief in his command chain...
BPTactical
06-20-2012, 13:13
You know this entire administration was summed up while I was sitting on my front porch last night and I was watching my cat as he took a dump in my wifes flower bed.
The more he tried to cover the fresh dookie he uncovered even more old ones[ROFL1]
You know this entire administration was summed up while I was sitting on my front porch last night and I was watching my cat as he took a dump in my wifes flower bed.
The more he tried to cover the fresh dookie he uncovered even more old ones[ROFL1]
That had to have been frustrating for the cat...
KestrelBike
06-20-2012, 15:38
That's probably how this will proceed- from the Post article:
you can figure out for yourself how well this will proceed when he's asked to indict the chief in his command chain...
What do the numbers look like for when boehner calls the vote?
68Charger
06-20-2012, 16:18
What do the numbers look like for when boehner calls the vote?
if it goes like the vote in committee, then it will be straight party lines (and it's predicted to be close to that)... Republicans have a majority in the house (what, 39 seats?), so they should be able to get the votes...
Issa is already talking like he's using it for a bargaining chip, tho-
In history, contempt of congress is uncommon- and has lead to a prosecution only once. Usually a deal is struck.
BPTactical
06-20-2012, 16:24
Well at least there is a touch of silver lining to this turd:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/committee-votes-hold-eric-holder-contempt-over-fast-202646073.html
The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee on Wednesday voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress despite a last-minute intervention by President Obama (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-invokes-executive-privilege-holder-faces-contempt-vote-143710603.html#more-id).
By a vote of 23 to 17 after nearly six hours of tense discussion, the bipartisan committee voted for contempt over the Justice Department's decision to withhold documents related to Operation Fast and Furious that were subpoenaed by the committee in their investigation of the failed gunwalking operation.
The votes were sharply divided along partisan lines with all Republicans voting for and all Democrats voting against contempt. The measure now moves to the full House for a vote.
Moments before the hearing, Holder, who was not present for the committee vote, delivered a letter to Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) informing the committee that Obama exerted executive privilege to withhold the documents in question.
"Although we are deeply disappointed that the Committee appears intent on proceeding with a contempt vote, the Department remains willing to work with the Committee to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution of the outstanding issues," Deputy Attorney General James Cole wrote in a letter to Issa.
But the president's intervention did not stop Issa from proceeding with Wednesday's vote.
"This untimely assertion by the Justice Department falls short of any reason to delay today's proceedings," Issa said prior to the vote.
Many committee members Wednesday invoked the name of Brian Terry, a border patrol agent killed in Dec. 2010 (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/parents-slain-border-agent-brian-terry-blast-obama-202238217.html). At the scene of that crime, guns sold in the Fast and Furious operation were recovered. The operation overall was designed to track firearm sales from the United States to Mexican drug cartels, but the government lost track of a majority of the guns sold in the operation.
"Remember the promises that were made in this room to Terry's family. We would not rest until we got to the bottom of this," Rep. Blake Farenthold (R-Tex.) said Wednesday.
"Have the guts, I hope we have the guts and the perseverance to get to the bottom of this," Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah) said, encouraging the government to help get to the bottom of why Fast and Furious failed. "It's not about Attorney General Eric Holder, it's about the Justice Department and justice in America," he added, invoking Terry's name.
Just prior to the vote, Rep. Ann Marie Buerkle (R-N.Y.) read a statement released by Terry's family, which read, in part:
For more than 18 months we have been asking our federal government for justice and accountability. The documents sought by the House Oversight Committee and associated with Operation Fast and Furious should be produced and turned over to the committee. Our son lost his life protecting this nation, and it is very disappointing that we are now faced with an administration that seems more concerned with protecting themselves rather than revealing the truth behind Operation Fast and Furious.
Republicans in Congress have been leading the push to find out what the government knew about the operation and when and why the effort failed.
Issa and Holder met Tuesday night under the auspices of reaching an agreement (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/issa-holder-contempt-vote-proceed-scheduled-230448749.html) that would potentially delay the contempt vote. But following the meeting, Issa said Holder merely confirmed the Justice Department would not be delivering the documents and that the vote would proceed as scheduled.
Holder accused Issa of playing politics.
"Given the extraordinary nature of the offer that we made and given the extraordinary way in which we have shared materials to date that I think we are actually involved more in political gamesmanship as opposed to trying to get the information they say they want," Holder said.
Discussion of Holder's contempt vote was sharply divided along partisan lines on the bipartisan committee Wednesday. Ranking Rep. Elijah Cummings of Maryland (D), defended Holder prior to the vote and accused Issa of refusing to compromise. "It seems to me you had no interest of resolving this issue," Cummings said to Issa.
Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.) said she was "offended personally" by Issa calling Holder a liar. "It's disrespectful," Maloney said. "Where have we degenerated to?" Maloney defended Holder, saying he is "prohibited by law from producing" the documents in question.
"I want to apologize to the American people for yet another show of 'gotcha politics' in this body," Rep. Jackie Speier (D-Calif.) stated.
But Republicans strongly disagreed.
"Thus far, the cooperation has not been forthcoming," Issa said of the Justice Department. "We and the American people need answers sooner, not later."
"Mr. Holder is either not telling the truth or he's grossly incompetent," Rep. Raul Labrador (R-Idaho) said Wednesday. Labrador once again called for Holder's resignation.
Holder issued a defiant statement following the committee's action (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/holder-house-committee-contempt-vote-divisive-entirely-unnecessary-212441479.html), taking aim at Issa and other detractors whom Holder accused of being motivated by politics.
"This divisive action does not help us fix the problems that led to this operation or previous ones and it does nothing to make any of our law enforcement agents safer. It's an election-year tactic intended to distract attention -- and, as a result -- has deflected critical resources from fulfilling what remains my top priority at the Department of Justice: Protecting the American people," Holder said.
House Speaker John Boehner and Majority Leader Eric Cantor announced following Wednesday's vote that they plan schedule the full House vote for the week of June 25.
And you have to love this guy, SC Representative Trey Gowdy, he lays it all out the way it should be:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/heres-the-proof-rep-gowdy-raises-voice-invokes-stephen-colbert-in-6-minute-diatribe-blasting-holder/
eddiemed
06-23-2012, 07:22
Holder need to be charged!!!
Byte Stryke
06-23-2012, 08:57
And you have to love this guy, SC Representative Trey Gowdy, he lays it all out the way it should be:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/heres-the-proof-rep-gowdy-raises-voice-invokes-stephen-colbert-in-6-minute-diatribe-blasting-holder/
I like that guy.
I like that guy.
Ya, he is good. Should be picked for vp!
jackthewall81
06-23-2012, 09:10
I like that guy.
SC politics are great.
Ya, he is good. Should be picked for vp!
I am kind of thinking Rubio might do it. will win FL with him, and probably help take a lot of the "hispanic" vote from Obummer.
68Charger
06-23-2012, 13:37
I am kind of thinking Rubio might do it. will win FL with him, and probably help take a lot of the "hispanic" vote from Obummer.
Main thing I don't like about Rubio is he fails the natural born citizen test... mainstream obviously doesn't care- but if I don't think Obama is eligible, then I don't think Rubio is, either.
I'm not a hypocrite like politicians are, tho.
Main thing I don't like about Rubio is he fails the natural born citizen test... mainstream obviously doesn't care- but if I don't think Obama is eligible, then I don't think Rubio is, either.
I'm not a hypocrite like politicians are, tho.
I did not know that. do you have to be in order to be a VP? or just president?
BPTactical
06-23-2012, 14:18
I did not know that. do you have to be in order to be a VP? or just president?
The problem arises if he has to assume the responsibilities of POTUS. I would think both have to be "Natural Born".
Sniper has a very good point.
Clay Turner
06-25-2012, 02:57
"Pollster Scott Rasmussen told The Daily Caller he thinks coverage in the mainstream media will ultimately be one of, if not the, single biggest factors in how the congressional investigation into Operation Fast and Furious moves forward, and whether Attorney General Holder keeps his job."
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/20/pollster-scott-rasmussen-fast-and-furious-outcome-depends-on-the-media-coverage/#ixzz1ynCrBk9v
Aside from CBS, mainstream media has ignored F&F. On the day the oversight committee voted to recommend contempt, NBC did not devote a second of coverage to the story. CNN ran a short "what is all this?" piece that concluded it was just election-year posturing, and I don't recall that they ever mentioned Brian Terry.
Even with all the media heat generated last week by the assertion of executive privilege, I would bet the majority of Americans still think Fast and Furious is a movie franchise.
Clay
Bailey Guns
06-25-2012, 06:54
Main thing I don't like about Rubio is he fails the natural born citizen test... mainstream obviously doesn't care- but if I don't think Obama is eligible, then I don't think Rubio is, either.
I'm not a hypocrite like politicians are, tho.
Marco Rubio was born in Miami. As in, Miami, FL. He's a natural born citizen and is eligible to be president.
Marco Rubio was born in Miami. As in, Miami, FL. He's a natural born citizen and it eligible to be president.
but his parents are cubans. isn't that where he loses his eligibility?
Bailey Guns
06-25-2012, 08:23
No. The constitution has no requirement that your parents be American citizens.
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
You wouldn't even have to be born in the US if your parents were US citizens. For example, you're born on a military base in another country. You would still be a natural born citizen.
68Charger
06-25-2012, 08:49
yeah, it's not that simple..
http://www.federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined/
here's a key paragraph that would apply here:
Rep. John A. Bingham commenting on Section 1992 said it means “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))
so his parents were Cuban- but where did their allegiance lie?
This, of course, should be part of the vetting process...
68Charger
06-25-2012, 08:56
No. The constitution has no requirement that your parents be American citizens.
You wouldn't even have to be born in the US if your parents were US citizens. For example, you're born on a military base in another country. You would still be a natural born citizen.
I agree the constitution lacks a clear definition, that is why it has to go to case law, and it can get complicated.
Bailey Guns
06-25-2012, 09:05
Yeah, I think it is that simple.
His parents were here legally as political refugees. He was born in Miami. He's a natural-born citizen.
The only evidence I can find that would dispute that seems to come from people who are fabricating some requirement not in the Constitution.
I think Art 2, Sec 1 is simple and clear and means exactly what it says...just like the 2nd Amend.
Bailey Guns
06-25-2012, 09:06
President Chester Arthur was born in the US to an American mother and an Irish father. There didn't seem to be any issues on whether or not he was eligible.
68Charger
06-25-2012, 09:22
Yeah, I think it is that simple.
His parents were here legally as political refugees. He was born in Miami. He's a natural-born citizen.
The only evidence I can find that would dispute that seems to come from people who are fabricating some requirement not in the Constitution.
I think Art 2, Sec 1 is simple and clear and means exactly what it says...just like the 2nd Amend.
The problem isn't in Article 2... it's in the legal definition of "natural-born citizen"
That is NOT clearly defined in the constitution, so case law is required to define it. (as in what has the SCOTUS decided, for one)
President Chester Arthur was born in the US to an American mother and an Irish father. There didn't seem to be any issues on whether or not he was eligible.
That's why I said it gets complicated- and it's not that simple.
would you really advocate that if it turned out that Hitler fathered a child that happened to be born on US soil, that he should be eligible?
Someone who's parents CLEARLY have no loyalty- or even hostility towards the US should not be eligible... the burden of proof is upon them to prove they were loyal to the US at the time.
But now I'm getting into the SPIRIT of the law, rather than the letter of it.
ETA: What I'm really saying here is that for Rubio to go on the ticket, the GOP really needs to address this legally- not just ignore it like the DNC did...
Bailey Guns
06-25-2012, 09:25
Found the case I was looking for: US v Wong Kim Ark
The SCOTUS ruled (in 1898) that pretty much anyone born in the US was a natural born citizen with few exceptions.
Sec 1 of the 14th Amend seems pretty clear, too.
I'm looking through my Heritage Guide to the Constitution. It discusses this issue at length and comes to the same conclusion...if you're born here (again, with few exceptions such as born to parents who are foreign diplomats) you're a natural born citizen.
Bailey Guns
06-25-2012, 09:31
The problem isn't in Article 2... it's in the legal definition of "natural-born citizen"
That is NOT clearly defined in the constitution, so case law is required to define it. (as in what has the SCOTUS decided, for one)
That's why I said it gets complicated- and it's not that simple.
would you really advocate that if it turned out that Hitler fathered a child that happened to be born on US soil, that he should be eligible?
Someone who's parents CLEARLY have no loyalty- or even hostility towards the US should not be eligible... the burden of proof is upon them to prove they were loyal to the US at the time.
But now I'm getting into the SPIRIT of the law, rather than the letter of it.
ETA: What I'm really saying here is that for Rubio to go on the ticket, the GOP really needs to address this legally- not just ignore it like the DNC did...
Good discussion! Here's a quote from the Heritage Guide:
Under the longstanding English common-law principle of jus soli, persons born within the territory of the sovereign (other than children of enemy aliens or foreign diplomats) are citizens from birth. Thus, those persons born within the United States are "natural born citizens" and eligible to be President.
So that would pretty much rule out your Hitler's child scenario.
68Charger
06-25-2012, 09:38
His parents were here legally as political refugees. He was born in Miami. He's a natural-born citizen.
And this is false- they immigrated in 1956, before Castro came to power- they were just immigrants, not political refugees
so the question of their loyalty should be vetted.
Since they did become US citizens by the time he was 4, they'd likely qualify him as a NBC... but I believe it should be done in a legal proceeding so there is no question.
ETA: when I made the original statement that he "fails the NBC test", I should have added something about "at first appearance" or "on the surface"
That was bad wording on my part.
Bailey Guns
06-25-2012, 09:47
And this is false- they immigrated in 1956, before Castro came to power- they were just immigrants, not political refugees
so the question of their loyalty should be vetted.
Since they did become US citizens by the time he was 4, they'd likely qualify him as a NBC... but I believe it should be done in a legal proceeding so there is no question.
ETA: when I made the original statement that he "fails the NBC test", I should have added something about "at first appearance" or "on the surface"
That was bad wording on my part.
I thought I read or heard they were refugees. Could be wrong on that point.
Still enjoyed the discussion.
68Charger
06-25-2012, 09:54
Good discussion! Here's a quote from the Heritage Guide:
Under the longstanding English common-law principle of jus soli, persons born within the territory of the sovereign (other than children of enemy aliens or foreign diplomats) are citizens from birth. Thus, those persons born within the United States are "natural born citizens" and eligible to be President.
So that would pretty much rule out your Hitler's child scenario.
agreed- I was speaking about the spirit of the law, making the case for why it's not so simple that you're just born on US soil.
so it really comes down to his parents- their intentions & loyalty to the US... which I think clears him (since they became citizens), but it should be a matter of record, not something that birthers are going to dig up later and cry foul.
Even if his parents did NOT become citizens, but were not found to be enemies of the state- he could be cleared, but the vetting needs to be done for the good of the office.
I thought I read or heard they were refugees. Could be wrong on that point.
Still enjoyed the discussion.
I believe it was misstated at one point- perhaps even by Sen. Rubio... he's human [Tooth]
I enjoyed the debate, too...
anyways, back to EH.
looks like there might be a decision today or tomorrow by congress if Holder will be held in contempt.
SCOTUS will rule on obamacare on thursday.
Bailey Guns
06-25-2012, 11:06
There's some new information coming out about Dodson, the original F&F whistleblower. Might complicate things.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/25/issa-acknowledges-fast-and-furious-whistleblower-once-proposed-gunwalking/
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., in bringing up the case by name unprompted, was effectively pre-empting what could come to light in a possible document dump: that the operation was planned and carried out at the field level without the knowledge of DOJ higher-ups.
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