colt 1911 help

[Foxinator]

I was just curious if anyone here is or knows someone with some expertise on the original Colt 1911's ?
I was lucky enough to have just inherited one that from everything I read online is one of the Original US military models.
The only problem I have is there is no serial number.
From what I hear, that was a common thing back then with the military fellas bringing them back from the war.
Does anyone know if and where I can get another one issued if It's even possible ?

[rondog]

Jesus, what a bummer. To possess an original WWI Colt, with an altered s/n? AFAIK, that gun is now illegal as hell because of that. And no, you can't get another s/n assigned to it and restamped. You have a quandry, my friend.

[10x]

I believe the ATF might assign one. I suggest that you do a bit of internet research on the subject before calling them.

[BPTactical]

Don't stress it too badly quite yet.
While it is unlawful to posess a firearm with a defaced serial number as you discovered it was very common practice with war trophies and bring backs.
Sometimes SN removal was done at an arsenal level when a weapon was rebuilt. Usually a new number was stamped at that time.
You say this weapon was inherited. How long has the weapon been in the family?
Prior to 1968 firearms were not required to have a serial number.
You have a few choices:
Throw the devil to the wind and leave things as they are and take your chances.
Destroy the frame.
Rebuild it on a lawful, serialized frame and destroy the old frame.
Contact the BATF and ask for guidance on lawfully assigning a new number to it. Explain the situation fully and have documentation to back you up.
They can issue a letter with a new number assigned by them that you will then take to a 07 FFL (manufacturer) and have the new number stamped/engraved.
Believe it or not if you contact them first, they are generally happy to help and they are sympathetic to war trophies and bring backs.

[BPTactical]

Foxinator-
I contacted my BATF gent here in Denver and asked what procedure is involved in a case as this to get a new SN assigned.
You need to contact the Colorado Springs office @ 719-473-0166 and explain the situation to them. They will assign an investigator who will contact you to do a physical inspection of the item and ask a few question. Basically they will want assurance that the removal was not done with criminal intent.
Once those requirements have been fulfilled they will issue a document with a new ATF issued serial number to take to a qualified FFL to have the new number stamped/engraved.

Sounds scary but as long as you have all your ducks in a row and have any pertinent documentation in order it will be a painless process.

This really is a situation where asking for permission first is much better than begging for forgiveness after.

[sroz]

Now that's going outta your way to help out a forum member!

Way to go, BP!

[Beer]

[Foxinator]

Thanks for the insight on this fellas.
Sounds like I'm gonna be getting out the cutting torch in the morning and looking for a new frame.
I have no desire to deal with these kind of issues.
I like my legal guns to much and I don't need that kind of heat in my life.
Any ideas on finding a new legal frame for one ?
I know this gun has been in the family for years and was definatly before 1968.
Hell for all I know it may of never had a serial number from the war days.
I say to hell with it, It's turning into liquid metal in the morning. It's just not worth the hassle.

[Foxinator]

Thanks Bp I really do appreciate the help. I think for all the trouble and BS I would rather invest My time and money in a new Kimber 1911.
Having a gun that you can't even take to the range without having to wonder if your gonna get popped for breaking the law isn't worth having.
If I could find a legal frame for a halfway decent price it might be worth doing. Even if you could get a new number issued, it wouldn't look or be the same as the original.
If you know of or come across a replacement frame, keep Me in mind cause I'm gonna have some spare 1911 parts now.

[BigNick73]

Any ideas on finding a new legal frame for one ?


That depends on if you want colt or not. For colt frame best I can give you is to keep an eye out on gunsamerica/gunbroker/riverofguns etc...

Aftermarket you got options. Caspian, Foster (caspian bemish frames), fusion, remsport mfg, les bear.

I built a Fusion, one of the few left doing forged frames, and I'm still happy with it, and just ordered a Remsport (they're having a sale on commander frames and I've read mostly good about them). Keep in mind you'll be finishing them as there will probably be some tooling marks and burs left from the machining. Some slide to frame fitting may also have to be done.

[Foxinator]

Bignick73 I would love to have an actual Colt lower to replace it with, but cost may not be worth it.
As it is now this gun is basically worth nothing more than a pile of parts. An aftermarket lower might be the way to go. At least I would be able to own it with some legal piece of mind.
I will definatly look at this option.
Thanks !!!!

[rondog]

Man, don't destroy it! Bert did the legwork, and if the ATF is willing, then get it legal! Those old 1911's are priceless, don't turn that one into another paperweight! The worst the ATF would do is take it away from you, but if they'll make it legal for you, that would be awesome! Once you torch it, it's gone forever.

[kidicarus13]

I'm not sure what you're worried about legally. Give ATF a chance to help you get what you're looking for.

[Foxinator]

Well it's not the legality I'm worried about. Hell I have never even had a damn speeding ticket on My record. Because this gun means so much sentimentally, I would rather destroy the lower and find one that is legal rather than to chance giving it up the to the ATF.
Not only that, but I would not want to do anything that would risk My concealed carry or My Chances of owning SBR's and Suppresors on My AR's someday soon.
Sorry but it just is not worth it to Me to deal with it. Like I said, it's not about the money or it's value. I just like it and I want to be able to legally shoot it without drawing a red flag!!!
From what I see, lowers for this gun are pretty easy to find so sorry fellas. This one is history as soon as I get out into the shop this morning !!!

[BPTactical]

[Bang]

[BuffCyclist]

Well it's not the legality I'm worried about... Because this gun means so much sentimentally...
Sorry but it just is not worth it to Me to deal with it.

That's quite a shame you are going to destroy it because you are too intimidated by the BATF to call them up and explain the situation. Wouldn't it be much more satisfying to be shooting it in its original condition and not with a modern lower?

But at the end of the day, its your call. I think everyone here just doesn't want to see you do something to destroy it and then have regrets. I really wonder how many original Colt 1911's there are left in the world. If nothing else, throw it in the safe (or better yet an old trunk) and if the BATF ever comes knocking, say you forgot about it lol (that wont work, just trying to lighten the mood).

BPTactical did ALL of the leg work for you, all them up. If it is going to be too complicated for you to proceed after talking to them, then do what you want, but don't give up now without at least making one phone call.

[lifeon2]

Heck I'll buy it from you.

[BPTactical]

I am really confused on this one.
1- of great sentimental value but not hesitating to torch it?
2- want SBR's and suppressors but afraid to contact BATF?


As the old radio announcer said: "There's more to the story".............

[O2HeN2]

Unasked question: Has the serial number been obliterated, or does it appear to never have had one?

Reason I ask is my GF's Grandfather's Colt 1911 was manufactured in 1918* and has a serial number. It appears that serial numbers on Colt's go back to day zero. So I'd guess the serial number is obliterated, which may be a problem.

O2

* According to "Hallock's .45 Auto Handbook" -- an excellent reference that any 1911 aficionado should own!

[BPTactical]

Unasked question: Has the serial number been obliterated, or does it appear to never have had one?

Reason I ask is my GF's Grandfather's Colt 1911 was manufactured in 1918* and has a serial number. It appears that serial numbers on Colt's go back to day zero. So I'd guess the serial number is obliterated, which is a problem.

O2

* According to "Hallock's .45 Auto Handbook" -- an excellent reference that any 1911 aficionado should own!

Not really a problem, as long as a reasonable means is provided that it was not removed with criminal intent.
As explained, the BATF has a pretty painless process for assigning a new, BATF issued number.
I would not hesitate to use the process for a family heirloom.

I have found the BATF to be quite helpful when questions arise, and quite accommodating.
But then again I've nothing to hide.

[lifeon2]

My dealings with the BATF have all been smooth and painless.

[O2HeN2]

Sorry, that should have read "may be a problem" (fixed on edit). Though you might be able to resolve this issue at the Federal (read: ATF) level, I see no wiggle room in the Colorado Revised Statues if the firearm has been "defaced":

C.R.S. 18-12-103 (2011)
18-12-103. Possession of a defaced firearm

A person commits a class 1 misdemeanor if he knowingly and unlawfully possesses a firearm, the manufacturer's serial number of which, or other distinguishing number or identification mark, has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, except by normal wear and tear.

[rondog]

Man, there's an ATF office in the same building I work in. Want me to go ask them for you?

[BPTactical]

Sorry, that should have read "may be a problem" (fixed on edit). Though you might be able to resolve this issue at the Federal (read: ATF) level, I see no wiggle room in the Colorado Revised Statues if the firearm has been "defaced":

C.R.S. 18-12-103 (2011)
18-12-103. Possession of a defaced firearm

A person commits a class 1 misdemeanor if he knowingly and unlawfully possesses a firearm, the manufacturer's serial number of which, or other distinguishing number or identification mark, has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, except by normal wear and tear.

Not so, I just got off of the horn with CBI for a clarification. There is a key word in the above statute that if the OP is on the level, absolves him of any criminal act.
UNLAWFULLY
If the firearm in question was lawfully obtained by inheritance as noted in the original post he has nothing to fear.
When asked as far as reassignment or restoration of an obliterated serial number CBI has no stance. They deferred me to BATF policy and regulations, which we have already covered.

This is truly a travesty and crying shame. A rare piece of military history and firearm history is going to be destroyed because of fear/paranoia.

[Foxinator]

Ok......... let Me just say I have nothing at all to hide. But for one thing what in the world would I use for documentation ? This thing is from one of the world wars. I have no serial number to figure out exactly what it is other than markings. And obviously it has no bill of sell.It was brought home after military service. so what kind of paper work would I even come up with ?
My luck I would try to get it taken care of and it would end up as a nice momentum in some ATF agents gun safe.
When I was dismantling it today under one of the grips was My wives Dads social security number engraved into it.
Sorry, but My old Man is a retired police officer and I know how they are with this kind of stuff.
I may not destroy this frame, but I can tell you this gun will have a legal one on it very soon. The old one is gonna vanish some where that I might not even find it. I don't want to draw a red flag on My application for and SBR and suppressor.
Like I said, to much of a hassle to have to prove it yours and the fact I have no kind of paperwork to prove it. Those people are all about documentation and how in the hell would I come up with that ?

[BPTactical]

You have all of the provenance you need to show lawful possesion:


My wives Dads social security number engraved into it.


(Just how many wives do you have??[Tooth])
That with a certificate of death or if he is still alive a statement from him stating that it is a "bring back" from military service is all that is needed.

You have a piece of history there. Relish it.

[BuffCyclist]

You have all of the provenance you need to show lawful possesion:

(Just how many wives do you have??[Tooth])
That with a certificate of death or if he is still alive a statement from him stating that it is a "bring back" from military service is all that is needed.

You have a piece of history there. Relish it.

That's precisely what i was thinking. Proof that its his SSN engraved there, pictures that prove it (and that show the rest of the pistol, not just completely zoomed in), and a cert of death or letter should be enough. Granted I've never had dealings with the BATF, that seems like enough irrefutable evidence to me.

[rondog]

Man, you're too eager to toss in the towel on this. It's not that big of a deal, they're not going to red flag/blacklist you for your SBR and suppressor applications. If anything, this will help to show you're a law-abiding citizen that wants to do the right thing, and still keep a family heirloom war trophy. There were thousands of 1911's brought back by GI's in several wars, this is nothing new to the ATF. The military wrote 'em off years ago, and doesn't want them back.

You are now in possession of one that a relative brought back and removed the s/n from out of his own fears, and you just want to make it legal to own. They will work with you on this.

Now if it was a Thompson SMG that had never been registered, then you'd have to get the torch out, and cry a whole bunch of tears. But this pistol can be made legal, give it a chance to survive!

[BPTactical]

It's not that big of a deal, they're not going to red flag/blacklist you for your SBR and suppressor applications. If anything, this will help to show you're a law-abiding citizen that wants to do the right thing, and still keep a family heirloom war trophy.

This was my thought as well, there is absolutely nothing wrong with establishing a good working relationship with the BATF. One of the first things they will do when they recieve your Form 1 application is search your name. A serial number assignment in your name will not hurt your cause at all.

[Foxinator]

Ok guys, I talked it over with the wife and she thinks your advise is the way to go. I hope your all right on this because she would kill me is the ATF latched on to her grandfather's 1911. I gotta admit the ATF intimidates the hell out of Me, but loosing this 1911 would bring down the wrath of God on Me. Lol
Thanks for all the help I'll get in touch with them on My next day off.
I sure hope you guys are right on this.

[BPTactical]

I think you will find that if you are straight up, have your ducks in a row and present your information in a clear and concise manner the BATF will be helpful and glad to assist you in getting your priceless relic in the clear.
By contacting them wanting to be on the good side it shows a tremendous amount of good faith on your behalf. That can't hurt a bit.
Clearly document as much history of the item that you can obtain, when the FIL obtained it, his service years, death certificate or letter from him documenting the item etc.
The better you prepare your information the smoother it will go. It will also show that you are on the up and up.
Like I stated before when I spoke with my contact, BATF deals with this all the time and they have the mechanism to deal with it. They have no desire to relieve you of a lawfully obtained relic/heirloom.
The only thing they are concerned with is willful criminal intent when it comes to removal of a SN.

We wish you the very best of luck and keep us advised please.
[Beer]

[Foxinator]

I sure will keep you up to date BP and thanks again !!!

[rondog]

In the meantime.....photos, please? We love gun pron! Especially war relics.

I'd like to see them before The Mob finds me, since I was rejected by the Witness Protection Program and all....

[BPTactical]

In the meantime.....photos, please? We love gun pron! Especially war relics.

I'd like to see them before The Mob finds me, since I was rejected by the Witness Protection Program and all....

You gotta watch this guy Foxinator...........

[rondog]

You gotta watch this guy Foxinator...........

Ssssshhhh, I'm already being watched......

[BPTactical]

Ssssshhhh, I'm already being watched......

[Peep]

[RANGERRON72]

A friend of my Dad's, both guys were WWII vets, told me the story of lunch box guns.

He said during the war, in the production of .45 M1911, workers would sneak out individual parts in their lunch boxes, and assemble a complete pistol.

Including a frame before it hit the stage of manufacture that put a serial number on it.

So, finding a M1911 without a serial number is not all that rare.

FWIW