View Full Version : Form 4 in Adams County?
Has anyone got a ATF Form 4 signed off on by the Adams County sheriff?
I called asking about it today and you would have thought I asked for a permit for a Tactical Nuke.
I'm looking into a trust as well.
Thanks!
HunterCO
02-23-2007, 12:46
The sheriff in Adams will not sign off. Your only option is to go corporate or trust.
Thats what I figured Thanks
I am going in to talk with him on tuesday...but I am sure it will be the same thing everyone else seems to hear.
Has anyone out there had him sign off?
If not, anybody got a good link for a "trust" set-up, and what are the associated risks with a trust?
The only risk I can think of over a trust over individual is that you could revoke the trust, and if it owned NFA items you would have NFA items that were owned by an entity that no longer exists. But you can just not revoke it.
I had a lawyer here in Colorado Springs work with a firearms attorney in DC to do my trust, PM me if you want their info.
Once I figure out how to do a PM, I will!
Do you know if you can "change" a trust, say if you had someone that would inherit, but they passed on, and you needed to add someone else?
If so, then i will go this route for sure.
A tactical nuke -- that would be what, a destructive device?
micah360
03-17-2008, 09:49
Once I figure out how to do a PM, I will!
Do you know if you can "change" a trust, say if you had someone that would inherit, but they passed on, and you needed to add someone else?
If so, then i will go this route for sure.
It's your trust... you can change whatever you want, whenever you want.
You can also take stuff out and sell it as you wish (just make sure you remove it from the trust), and you can add as many items as you wish.
My first .45 suppressor I had the form filled out to me only. The sheriff signed off on it no problem.
My next 2 suppressors I put on a trust. This is the way I will do it from now on. I just got quicken will maker and made the trust up like that. There are posts on this on silencertests.com
Make sure it is a revocable trust.
You can name the trust anything you want. You could literally name it the "bad *** toy" trust if you so desired.
My trust name has my name and my fathers name in it. But since I put my first suppressor filed just to me. My father can not handle that suppressor unless I'm around. Where as the one on the trust, either of us can take it where ever we want.
If you need any help, I can shoot you an E-mail of a general trust. You can re-type it (cause they are pictures) and have the trust for your self. I altered it a little bit.
rydercurryATgmail.com (replace the AT with @)
My first .45 suppressor I had the form filled out to me only. The sheriff signed off on it no problem.
My next 2 suppressors I put on a trust. This is the way I will do it from now on. I just got quicken will maker and made the trust up like that. There are posts on this on silencertests.com
Make sure it is a revocable trust.
You can name the trust anything you want. You could literally name it the "bad *** toy" trust if you so desired.
My trust name has my name and my fathers name in it. But since I put my first suppressor filed just to me. My father can not handle that suppressor unless I'm around. Where as the one on the trust, either of us can take it where ever we want.
If you need any help, I can shoot you an E-mail of a general trust. You can re-type it (cause they are pictures) and have the trust for your self. I altered it a little bit.
rydercurryATgmail.com (replace the AT with @)
Awesome! I will be doing this then! I'll shoot you can email once I finish this up.
I got my CCW paperwork and prints done today no problem, but had to drop off the ATF forms to the Sherrif to have put on his desk. He is supposed to call me, but we will see if that happens or not. I hope I didn't screw up by leaving the forms with him.
As far as naming who can handle the firearms, you put you and your dad. Is it limited to 2, or could I name my mom or my friend or my girlfriend?
What is a revocable trust vs. a non-revocable trust? I could probably guess it, but I would rather hear it from someone who knows.
Thanks for the info.
I wanted to share with all of you the question this guy e-mailed me and my answers. Maybe to help clear some confusion with trusts:
Here is what he E-mailed:
Hi,
I saw your post answering some of my questions about trusts. I posted again on there with more questions, but I have some more as well?
I am trying to get a trust started, but I just want to make sure i do it the right way and everything is legal.
I want to name my dad on the trust, and possibly my mom. Is there a limit on the amount of people that can be on the trust?
I would probably just stop with the 3 of us and that would be it...really, I don't even think I would put my mom on there, but my question still remains.
As far as naming the trust, do you have to name it co-inciding with the people who will be on the trust, or are they listed somewhere else other than the actual name of the trust?
And you said revocable vs. non-revocable? What is the difference and what does each mean?
What program did you say you used, and where did you get it?
Once the trust is created with the program, what steps need to be taken to get it filed so everything is legal and no problems will be had when the paperwork is submitted to the ATF, or if you were to be checked my a LEO?
Anything else would be greatly appreicated!
Thanks,
-------Here is my reply E-mail-------
(PS I sent him an e-mail with detailed pictures of a trust)
I just sent you an email with many pictures, let me know if you got it, and you can see the pictures...
A trust is legal. You will send it to the ATF, and they will review it before giving you the $200 stamp.
I named my trust the "my name" and "my dad's name" revocable trust because I wanted our names to be on the trust.
The whole trust thing is a "gray area" in the ATF world.
But I do know that some people on silencertest.com have named their trust some funny names. Some use there online alias screen names for their trusts.
When you read the e-mail I sent you before, that is what a guy on AR-15.com had. I altered it a bit and had some more info added like a section for those who could handle the trust property. On this page I named any body who I would ever Imagine I would let borrow the suppressor overnight. Like my best friend/ dad's best friend, and what not. I don't know how well this would hold up in court, and I have not practiced this, but I put it in there none the less.
There is no limit of who you can put on the trust because there is no written documentation from ATF on how trust can be written. (I'm sure some day some one will ask about and ATF will look into the issue more and make the rules much more strict)
Some people on silencertests.com also started a corporation. And if they want a friend to borrow the suppressor, they add that person as a business member of the corp.
The trust route is easier though cause it is free, and you can move to another state and it is still valid.
revocable means that the trust can be changed. a nonrevocable trust means that it can never EVER be changed.
So for example: I bought a .308 suppressor. and put it on a trust. then months later i got a .22 suppressor. Well I just changed the revocable trust to add the new suppressor in and submitted that new trust to the ATF.
If I had a non revocable trust, I would have had to start a new trust for it seperatley.
Also with a revocable, you can change the members in it if you wanted.
I used quicken willmaker. office depot sells it, but the previous e-mail will show you what it will print out for you.
To make the trust official, you will have to go to a bank and have them notarize the document, costs like $5-10. and each time you change it, you will have to re-notarize it.
The LEO/ Sherriff will never go to your house because they don't know that you have it. Like I said before, my first can I had the LEO sign off on it. It was a pain in the butt to drive down there, drop it off, get finger printed/photo, pick it up, plus now they have record that I have a suppressor. Now I just change my trust, notary and send it off to ATF, the sheriff was never involved for my "trust" suppressors.
Let me know any other questions you have.
I'll be heading over to circuit city or the like to pick up the willmaker program today!
I'm pumped!
I finally got around to editing my trust to take out all my personnal info, and I sent it to sniper 7.
If anyone else wants this, shoot me a PM and I will get your e-mail address.
Sounds like a trainwreck waiting to happen.
Doing this kind of thing without professional advice is akin to doing brain surgery on yourself.
IMO it's worth the money to pay a professional for this kind of thing.
HunterCO
03-20-2008, 22:43
Sounds like a trainwreck waiting to happen.
Doing this kind of thing without professional advice is akin to doing brain surgery on yourself.
IMO it's worth the money to pay a professional for this kind of thing.
Yep money well spent some will never get that though.
I just compared the one I built to a guy who paid $2500 for his and mine is pretty much the same.
Don't see the point in paying a lawyer to write up something I can do on my own.
I consulted two lawyer friends and they didn't know much about them...
The whole thing is a gray area to begin with.
You can have as many lawyers that you want to look it over, but in the end we all know that the ATF will do what they want, when they want.
Having a lawyer look it over does not guarantee anything, It helps, but it does not guarantee .
Just like when the .22 akins accelerator was considered a bump firing device. Then some one asked the ATF to make a ruling on it. Then all the sudden, everyone that owned these once legal device, were now considered illegal. Even though it was not really a machince gun.
You are submitting these trusts to the ATF, they are looking at them, and they are approving the stamps for your trust. You got approval from the ATF for this.
The difference is, that the people who had these akins, never got an approval/Tax stamp from the ATF.
micah360
03-21-2008, 09:28
The ATF now requires that you send ALL of the trust documents so they can have their legal look them over before approval. Last year they just required you send the Cert. of Trust. Now you have to send the Dec. of Trust and the Property Schedule too.
On my latest stamp they contacted me because I didn't send the all of trust documents in. Once I sent them all, and they reviewed everything, I was good to go.
My problem with these non-professionally prepared trusts is that too many people using them may screw the rest of us eventually.
ATF has considered adding the CLEO signoff requirement to trusts and corporations. If more people abuse this part of the law (by drawing up trusts that are inadequate, or by forming corporations that have no legitimate purpose and adding their friends so that their friends can posess and use their NFA items) the ATF is MORE likely to add the CLEO signoff or do other things that are detrimental to the rest of us.
So for those of you forming a trust or corporation PLEASE consult a professional who is FAMILIAR with the NFA. One place to start is Mark Barnes, he is an attorney in DC who knows more about the NFA than anyone I know and who interacts with the ATF NFA branch regularly.
micah360
03-21-2008, 09:39
ATF has considered adding the CLEO signoff requirement to trusts and corporations.
Yeah... that would REALLY suck because this is the reason most of us do this route anyway!
You can have as many lawyers that you want to look it over, but in the end we all know that the ATF will do what they want, when they want.
Having a lawyer look it over does not guarantee anything, It helps, but it does not guarantee .
Having a competent lawyer who is familiar with trusts and the ATF "look it over" means your estate and NFA items will be much better protected and that you won't be forming a trust that is basically meaningless. It also means that you can demonstrate to the ATF if they question what you are doing that you are taking the ownership of NFA items seriously and aren't just looking for a loophole to try and sneak through.
Just like when the .22 akins accelerator was considered a bump firing device.
The akins accelerator situation helps to illustrate the problem many of us want to avoid. The ATF can in fact change its mind (effectively changing the law) at will. I would like to avoid having them change their minds about how trusts and corporations are treated. I contend that drawing up trusts that you write yourself (because it worked for another guy) or that are written by some software program is a good way to encourage the ATF to change their minds.
HunterCO
03-21-2008, 23:04
I just compared the one I built to a guy who paid $2500 for his and mine is pretty much the same.
Don't see the point in paying a lawyer to write up something I can do on my own.
I consulted two lawyer friends and they didn't know much about them...
Yep just like the guy who knows nothing about a car except how to put gass in it, and how to drive it. He then puts his 10K honda civic next to a corvette and proclaims they are the same. After all they both have four wheels, a seat, and a steering wheel.
Oh and of course he will claim he saved 50K and has the same car............[Bang]
Yep just like the guy who knows nothing about a car except how to put gass in it, and how to drive it. He then puts his 10K honda civic next to a corvette and proclaims they are the same. After all they both have four wheels, a seat, and a steering wheel.
Oh and of course he will claim he saved 50K and has the same car............[Bang]
Maybe that's the reason you wanted a lawyer?
I found it very easy to build a trust, and I have consulted lawyers and there isn't any around that would be competent...so what is the point of paying someone ridiculous money if they haven't more of a clue that I do?
If I compare mine to the one a guy paid $2500 for and they are worded the same other than names and dates, I don't see how this could be wrong.
The car story is a bit off this subject.
I found it very easy to build a trust, and I have consulted lawyers and there isn't any around that would be competent...so what is the point of paying someone ridiculous money if they haven't more of a clue that I do?
If I compare mine to the one a guy paid $2500 for and they are worded the same other than names and dates, I don't see how this could be wrong.
It is very easy to build a trust, how appropriate that trust is for your needs is another question.
You are correct that finding a lawyer who is knowledgeable of the NFA and able to create a trust that fits your needs (including using it to posess NFA items) is NOT easy. I talked to a lot of lawyers who said they didn't know anything about the NFA before I found one who does know about it. I have posted his name above and would recommend him to anyone looking to form a trust involving the NFA.
To compare the trust you made yourself to ONE other trust isn't really meaningful. I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers out there who will charge a lot of money for a trust that is a piece of crap. That doesn't mean that ALL lawyers will create a trust that is a piece of crap.
This situation is a classic case of you get what you pay for. HOWEVER, the potential impact of people writing their own trusts on the entire NFA community is real, and I would hope people will consider it when contemplating a trust for NFA items.
I understand what you are saying about the impact it could potentially have on the community, but the ATF is going to do what it wants to do either way. They might decide a sign-off is still necessary even with a trust.
As far as the lawyers go, what you just said is that it is basically a crapshoot if you are going to get a good trust and if the lawyer knows anything about NFA items.
How do you know the lawyer you have mentioned didn't google NFA trust info, find out the information on the net already out there and say he knows a lot about it and would gladly charge you $2500 to write one up?
SigsRule
03-22-2008, 21:31
I'm sure the trusts generated by Quicken Will Maker were reviewed by lawyers before Quicken put it on the market. In addition, there's probably been thousands of Trusts created with Will Maker and lots of them were used for NFA items. And finally, some people have compared the output of Will Maker ($39.00) with Trusts written by lawyers (several thousand dollars) with very minor differences.
If you want to spend a few thousand to get a lawyer to write one for you go right ahead. Are you under the impressioin that a Trust lawyer writes one up from scratch? I think it falls into the same category as accountants that use TurboTax to generate the forms for their clients (actually my accountant used a different program, but the point is he didn't do it from scratch).
As far as the lawyers go, what you just said is that it is basically a crapshoot if you are going to get a good trust and if the lawyer knows anything about NFA items.
How do you know the lawyer you have mentioned didn't google NFA trust info, find out the information on the net already out there and say he knows a lot about it and would gladly charge you $2500 to write one up?
It's not a crapshoot, as I do when hiring any professional I verified his qualifications before hiring him.
Lets not make this personal. The bottom line is you get what you pay for. A homemade trust is clearly sufficient to get the ATF to approve your forms. It MAY be sufficient for your personal estate planning needs. It MAY also contribute to the ATF tightening the rules in the future regarding trusts and corporations.
Arguing that your trust is somehow better or cheaper or whatever than mine is silly.
It's not a crapshoot, as I do when hiring any professional I verified his qualifications before hiring him.
Lets not make this personal. The bottom line is you get what you pay for. A homemade trust is clearly sufficient to get the ATF to approve your forms. It MAY be sufficient for your personal estate planning needs. It MAY also contribute to the ATF tightening the rules in the future regarding trusts and corporations.
Arguing that your trust is somehow better or cheaper or whatever than mine is silly.
I'm fine with that. I'm just saying that in the end I will be able to get my NFA items just as you got yours. If they sign off on it and approve it, I will be glad I didn't spend a dime on the trust other than a notary signature instead of dropping 2.5K for a lawyer to build me one.
str86diesel
12-27-2012, 21:05
There is talk of an attorney in Loveland who will assist with creating a trust. I just used this guy and he is the bomb. If anyone is interested, I highly recommend this guy and can forward his information on.
i gave him my info at 2pm today and he had the trust created same day....
i actually made some calls and was advised by Darry's office that they will not sign off on the forms, hence the reason why I went with a trust.
StagLefty
12-27-2012, 21:54
4 year old thread
ThunderSquirrel
12-28-2012, 14:04
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attachments/world-affairs-board-pub/17201d1258434900-necropost-warning-necrokitten.jpg
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