Distance Statistics for 'Legal Shoots"?

[rocktot]

Just wondering if there is an 'average' distance for self-defense shootings? Why practice at 20 yards with a pistol when the average is 5 yards or less? Do some CC classes cover this issue?

[King]

Im taking a class right now. We shoot tomorrow and I think the farthest we shoot is 5 yards. I have heard the average distance where SD shootings occur is around 3 yards but I have no reliable info to back that up. Some people get caught up in the what-ifs and making head shots with pistols at x amount of yards. Not very realistic for a SD shooting

[SuperiorDG]

When does a shot become not a SD shot? If you shoot someone at 200yds is this really an SD shot? Just thinking out loud.

[ChadAmberg]

I've heard 3 yards or less myself too but I don't think anyone actually compiles real statistics, just anecdotal data.
I know there are some schools that teach point shooting where you have your arms pulled close to your body rather than arms fully extended, since they say that's more likely to be the way a self defense shoot will be.

[TFOGGER]

You train at longer distances as well as short ones to refine technique: Sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, etc. Small errors become larger and more visible as distance increases (divergent angles). Under stress, fine motor control becomes an issue, so if you train to hit the target 1 inch below the point of the sternum at 20 yards, and you miss that point by 3 inches at 5 yards under severe stress, you still have an excellent chance of getting an effective result.

[lead_magnet]

The logic for shooting longer distances = preventing somone from killing somone other than yourself. What if its not you that is being attacked?

I'm not saying don't practice up close, you should most deffinatley do that, but don't neglect the other side of the coin either.

[Zundfolge]

The stat I always see pop up in these discussions is 21 feet or less (often said that something like 80% of SD shootings happen under 15 feet).

See also "Tueller Drill" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill)

This is why lasers sell like hotcakes.


Thing is, fundamentals are fundamentals whether shooting at 3 yards or 1000. Consistant grip, trigger control, front sight focus ... all things that are actually better taught out at 7-10 yards (with a handgun). Master putting all your rounds quickly into a B27 target at 10+ yards and when the time comes to hit someone closing in on you at under 15 feet and you'll do just fine.

[gcrookston]

Just wondering if there is an 'average' distance for self-defense shootings? Why practice at 20 yards with a pistol when the average is 5 yards or less? Do some CC classes cover this issue?

According to Ed Lovette in his book The Snubby Revolver the average distance for defensive shootings is just under 7 yards. He is citing from several decades of FBI investigations.

[spqrzilla]

If the average distance is 7 yards, that means that something on the order of half the shoots are farther than 7 yards. (lets ignore the difference between median and average for now).

Which means the statistic does not tell you squat about what distance your next self defense shoot will be at.

[gcrookston]

If the average distance is 7 yards, that means that something on the order of half the shoots are farther than 7 yards. (lets ignore the difference between median and average for now).

Which means the statistic does not tell you squat about what distance your next self defense shoot will be at.

You're right, it's hard to reach a conclusion on this data bit.

If you overlay the NYPD SOP study, which looked at all Officer shootings from 1854 to 1979, 90% of them occurred within 15 feet.

Then consider the majority of self defense shootings will occur in the home where the average room size is 10'x10' with a hallway being being under 30'. Outside the average lawn will be less than 40' boarder to boarder.

Below is an excerpt from the NYPD SOP9 study:

SHOOTING DISTANCES
4,000 cases were reviewed. The shooting distance in 75% of those cases was less than 20 feet.

Contact to 10 feet ... 51%

10 feet to 20 feet .... 24%

source: http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm

[Mazin]

The stat I always see pop up in these discussions is 21 feet or less (often said that something like 80% of SD shootings happen under 15 feet).

See also "Tueller Drill" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill)

This is why lasers sell like hotcakes.


Thing is, fundamentals are fundamentals whether shooting at 3 yards or 1000. Consistant grip, trigger control, front sight focus ... all things that are actually better taught out at 7-10 yards (with a handgun). Master putting all your rounds quickly into a B27 target at 10+ yards and when the time comes to hit someone closing in on you at under 15 feet and you'll do just fine.


This ^

[Chaffee2]

I teach CCW classes and one of the things I talk about is some of the murders that have taken place in the past.

While I don't focus entirely on long distance I do talk about it and we do shoot long distance in class. By long distance with a handgun I mean 15 to 25 yards or so. My reasons are partly being rural and the other by some of the shootings in the past such as mall shootings or schools shootings. While I don't advocate ever engaging a badguy at distance it is possible if you are caught at the wrong place at the wrong time you may have to.

A couple of the murders we've had over here it is quite possible you would have had to either ignore the situation and run away or try to save the life of a helpless victim.

Right or wrong just my two cents.

[Singlestack]

I agree with many of the others - the probability is certainly close range. However, some of the time the range is past the usual 7 yards, and it is worth doing some training at longer ranges. That said, with a small CC gun, I can't see training at over 25 yards. One, hard to hit - second, would you have a hard time making a case for a defensive shooting at, say, 35 yards?

Singlestack

[spencerhenry]

if you can hit at 20 yards, 3 yards is not a problem

[Big Wall]

The way I understand it is that if someone is within 21 ft they can probably get to you with a knife before you can draw your gun. Therefore you are justified to shoot a threat at that distance. My LEO brother says that they are considering making it a further distance.

[Colorado Osprey]

Very true.. trained on and proven. ^^^^ (X-LEO)

I was just wondering the same why people only train for CCW at close range. If the bad guy is trained at personal attacking you will not even clear leather; let alone be able to shoot them even if your gun is out.(no matter how fast you think you are when unprepared)

IMHO training for CCW should not be the average engagement distance, but teaching to make distance between you and the threat and engaging from a distance with cover if necessary.

There is a bunch taught in CCW classes that I don't agree with.

[Great-Kazoo]

Just wondering if there is an 'average' distance for self-defense shootings? Why practice at 20 yards with a pistol when the average is 5 yards or less? Do some CC classes cover this issue?


IF you feel there is imminent threat to you or loved one, that is grounds for using deadly force.

However during the investigation it is shown you could have fled the scene (Flight) you have some major problems.

A guy 1 block over telling you to give him your wallet and there is an exit, take it.

[YammyMonkey]

It's not a simple as if you can hit it at 25 yds, you can hit it at 2.5 yards. Those problems, and the requisite skillsets and decision making are significantly different.

The ability to make long distance hits won't help you when you're entangled during a criminal ambush just like the ability to lock in a solid 2 position in the drawstroke won't help you hit at distance. Both have their specific applications and should be trained, but it is up to you to assess the likelihood of needing those skills and allot your training time accordingly.

[Irving]

You should train for both. Zimmerman was balls deep inside Martin during that engagement. IDPA does a decent job at having targets from arms length to 25 yards, but most of the targets are 7 yards and further.

Drawing and shooting from retention is a great thing to practice. Shooting from retention is one handed only, with your elbow firmly planted against your side. This allows you to practice point shooting. This drill is generally done from arms length distance (should be able to touch the target with your finger tips) and a little further and a little closer. When they do this at a match, you can always tell the guys who have not shot from retention before when they are a good 2-5 inches below the 0 zone.

[Great-Kazoo]

You're right, it's hard to reach a conclusion on this data bit.

If you overlay the NYPD SOP study, which looked at all Officer shootings from 1854 to 1979, 90% of them occurred within 15 feet.

Then consider the majority of self defense shootings will occur in the home where the average room size is 10'x10' with a hallway being being under 30'. Outside the average lawn will be less than 40' boarder to boarder.

Below is an excerpt from the NYPD SOP9 study:

SHOOTING DISTANCES
4,000 cases were reviewed. The shooting distance in 75% of those cases was less than 20 feet.

Contact to 10 feet ... 51%

10 feet to 20 feet .... 24%

source: http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm



The average street cop & detective's were carrying 6" duty S&W's with the traditional 2" Smith hanging on their ankle. As compared to all departments nationwide upgrading to semi's later on.

[colblaster]

The statistic I have read is about 7 feet.

This seems to be supported by document at

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

The single most important factor for self defense is situational awareness. Do not let scum bag get that close in the first place.

Once you are that close, lots of other factors come into play besides straight marksmanship.

[YammyMonkey]

The competition requirement Irving mentioned shows a gross disconnect between the goals of competition and training for an actual fight that involves an oposing will. Attempting to access a weapon at that range is asking for trouble. We see it in every ECQC class. The gun-centric guys try to solve positional problems with a tool (gun) and it only makes things worse.

If the end goal is to win gun games, that's fine, but this particular tactic will not turn out well outside the sport context. Hence the entanglement, likelihood and application references in my previous post.

[Wiggity]

You train at longer distances as well as short ones to refine technique: Sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, etc. Small errors become larger and more visible as distance increases (divergent angles). Under stress, fine motor control becomes an issue, so if you train to hit the target 1 inch below the point of the sternum at 20 yards, and you miss that point by 3 inches at 5 yards under severe stress, you still have an excellent chance of getting an effective result.


This. Solid response